I have a problem and can’t figure out how to handle it. So in last nights game, we had a player fall prey to the Sphere of Annihilation trap. He failed the saves many times and as a chance to be saved by the party, I made them roll initiative to see who went first. The person who went before the player, casted polymorph and turned them into a rat in hopes that someone could grab him or he wouldn’t climb the statue. He was still under the affects of the spell effect of Antipathy/Sympathy spell like the simple trap in the DMG suggests, so on his round, he ran up the statue and into the mouth of the statue and into the Sphere.
So, my problem comes from the wording of both Sphere of Annihilation and Polymorph. Polymorph states when a creature reaches 0 hp it reverts back to its normal form where as the Sphere states it obliterates anything that passes through it. Right now I’m more looking for suggestions because the way I see it, his body turns back to normal but his head and a portion of his upper torso is completely gone from being obliterated by the Sphere, and the lower half of his body falls to the ground, rather than him and everything is just gone. Body and magical items are just vaporized into nothingness.
Im looking for ways to handle this situation so I don’t loose a player and give the other players a chance to keep a teammate. Also, I should note, that the cleric made his divine intervention roll and the outcome was reincarnation because he was polymorphed into a rat and jumped into the Sphere. I’m looking for a better way to deal with the situation because I have a player that doesn’t want to play as the race he was reincarnated into which I do understand there will be som reconing of game play and so do the players.
It seems to me that the Sphere should win here and the character is just entirely obliterated. As such, I'm not clear how there was any divine intervention involved since that requires an action and the character has already been obliterated. This just seems like a situation where typically that player just rolls up a new character and you create some narrative reason for when and how and why that character joins up with the rest of the existing party in the next session.
When you say you don't want to lose a player -- are you talking about losing the character or losing the player? Has the player said that they won't play if their character dies? That's the sort of thing that is ideally talked about in advance so if you are in that situation now it's hard to say what would be the best suggestion other than just talking through it with the player and see if they will change their mind.
So, a different player used his divine intervention the next round and rolled a 3 for it to work.
The player did say because his character was reincarnated into a Saytre, that his soul wouldn't return and that he just didn't want to play because he was really upset that his character died.
It sounds to me like you played it all by the book. I think you could retcon that they get reincarnated as their original race... I'm not necessarily on the player's side on this. I feel like, if you're not prepared for your character to potentially die, you should make sure all the players at the table agree that death is off the table. On top of that, I personally think the game is more boring if the chance of death is completely off the table, but to each their own.
Anyway, I think the fact that this spell was cast on them through Divine Intervention gives some more freedom to you, as the DM, to cater the results more to the players. If an actual, in-game, capital "G" God is the one doing the resurrection, it's easier to accept that they push the needle to the player's favor a bit more. If you don't want to retcon, you could promise the player that you'll fix it and then the next time they go to sleep they have a vision of said God... roleplay a little scene or something and they wake up in their original body (or at least a body that's the same race).
I usually have “active deities” — that is, you can run into them at the tavern, or along the side of the road, or the might be praying in temple next to you — so when stuff like that happens I have the ability to look at how things are going to impact the “fun”of everyone.
But death is a big deal. It is the stakes of the situation, and a sphere of annihilating is exactly that: it annhiliates anything that enters it. your solution for it works for me, but the reincarnation thing?
That’s your sticking point. So look at how that might happen. I would have hte god decide they want that character to do something and yank their soul back, take a long look into their heart, and then do a whole “powerful god doing crazy stuff” like “motes of light coalesce into the character, but looking ten years older” or something like that, and make sure that the player understands the god has a purpose and a timetable, lol.
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What we did, was do a random roll for player character race, and the player decided that he didn’t want to return because he didn’t want to play as what was rolled. Human was rolled twice and saytre was rolled once and he didn’t agree to any of it and as per the spell, the body was made, the soul was still unwilling to return. The player in question is also a difficult player to deal with at times.
If it’s a difficult player, call his bluff. Characters die in D&D. His character died. He can roll a new one, or leave the game. The reincarnation bit makes it even worse. You tried to find a compromise, but he’s throwing a tantrum. So either stick with the reincarnation (which to me is always a super fun option to role play, but that’s not really relevant here) or make a whole new character, or he can leave. Don’t let him bully you.
It would be reasonable for a god to know the PC wo7ld not want to be another race and cast true resurrection instead of reincarnate but having said that I agree with Xalthu.
If the Divine Intervention had not worked the PC would be dead. Do you want to play a video game where if you die you go back to 5he start of the dungeon and run it again or do you want death to be real.
As a GM, if I have a player that doesn't want to lose his character - then he doesn't lose his character. Now, if said character was returned, but now as maybe a ratling, I'd stick with that, and tell the player: Your character doesn't want to be a ratling - for all the understandable reasons. But right now, he is. We can work to fix that, but right now, in this dungeon, you're going to have to roll with it.
And then I'd work, off-stage, to create a couple of instances where it might be a significant advantage to be a ratling.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
My question is: why was the Reincarnation spell used? If my memory is correct, then by rolling Divine Intervention (at least in 5e), then the Gods just *do something*. Who decided at your table that that means Reincarnation was cast? Did the Cleric specifically ask for that as opposed to another spell? Did they just say they want the player back, and you as the DM decided it was gonna be Reincarnation?
I agree with the other posters, but also posit that if it's you who is forcing the Reincarnation as opposed to a different method of revival, then this might feel a bit retaliatory or confrontational to the player.
There are other revival spells that bring the PC back to their original body. Why didn't Divine Intervention do one of those spells?
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
He was given a chance to come back but refused. He just didn't want to come back as anything other than his original race. He could have later been changed back into his original race. Which would have provided a whole new quest for him or the party. Which is part of the games intention. Any spell cast by anyone including a god would ans should require a quest for the service. Unless the god owes him something equal in value.
Agree with the general concensus that they died, and their options are to reincarnate as another race (which you have made clear they could fix later) or to make a new character. They have said they do not want to reincarnate.
Ask them about their new character to see what they would like to play.
Alternate option:
I anticipate your player will be a problem with this too, but it could be worth a shot.
The cleric used Divine Intervention to try and bring them back, and that means that a god/goddess directly intervened, taking their precious time, and the character's soul refused them. That's one heck of an insult to the god in question. So have an opposition to that god bring their soul back, and offer them their body in exchange for their services. Their next level will need to be Warlock, with their choice of patron (make the figure shadowy and indistinct for the first meeting) and they get to come back as they were. But oh, there are most definitely strings attached.
Alternatively, if you anticipate them being belligerent on not wanting to take a Warlock class (sounds like they are powergaming, if they are so attached to their race it'll likely be that this will upset them) then make their "patron" a story thing where they make suggestions and requests. If they refuse too much, they will send "The Collector" a powerful enemy, to take them out again. The Collector has the ability that the accused cannot harm them, so it falls to the party to save them. If they do, then they have an enemy, but the curse disappears.
Beginning at 10th level, you can call on your deity to intervene on your behalf when your need is great.
Imploring your deity’s aid requires you to use your action. Describe the assistance you seek, and roll percentile dice. If you roll a number equal to or lower than your cleric level, your deity intervenes. The DM chooses the nature of the intervention; the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate.
If your deity intervenes, you can’t use this feature again for 7 days. Otherwise, you can use it again after you finish a long rest.
At 20th level, your call for intervention succeeds automatically, no roll required.
Reincarnate is a Druid spell so I don't know why a Cleric's Divine Intervention would favour a Druid only spell instead of a resurrection spell on the Cleric list. Like True Resurrection.
So I don't understand why there is some issue? The body got annihilated, Divine Intervention succeeded, so just True Res them back and move on? Everybody wins?
Am I missing something here?
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That does not limit the god who answered to just cleric spells. They are gods and can have any combination of spells and abilities they like. Maybe the god didn't think the dead character was worth their best efforts and did the minimum.
That does not limit the god who answered to just cleric spells. They are gods and can have any combination of spells and abilities they like. Maybe the god didn't think the dead character was worth their best efforts and did the minimum.
Yes, but this is a co-operative game not kick-players-when-they're-down game.
So far it's "hey, here's an instant kill destroy-your-body trap, just for lulz" >> "oh you died, oh" >> "a divine intervention which could enable me to avoid player permadeath and let them continue having fun? NAH I'll take this moment to "**** you" to the player and use a totally irrelevant spell?" >> "well now the player did not like my kick to their nuts, lets go on the forums and ask strangers!"
And more bizarrely , the part that is really boggling my mind here : the majority of the advice is "tough shit for player"? o.O
There is no reason here why this divine intervention had to be a reincarnate which the player is unhappy with? Why not just use true res, retconning if needed, so everybody is happy? Why is only 1 other person bringing up this incredibly obvious best-for-everyone solution?!
Sorry, this is just confusing me. Again, I feel like I'm missing something.
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There are a few issues you may want to address here ...
1) Did the players know and agree that characters dying was something that might happen? This is part of setting expectations.
2) However, even with that, there are many players who will feel very bad losing a character that they have spent a long time playing. If the player is saying that they don't want to play that character as a different species and that they may just decide not to play at all then they may mean that. On the other hand, give them a few days to think about it and also chat with them 1:1 to discuss options to see what they would be interested in doing.
- retcon that the divine intervention was true resurrection instead of reincarnation. The cleric rolled it and was successful in getting it so I'd likely have leaned towards the result that the player would have preferred.
- would the player like to start a completely different character at the same level and have them join the party? It would give them something completely different to do. If they want the other character back then the party could work towards getting them resurrected.
- it doesn't sound like the player is interested in other species you have rolled randomly, is there any interest in any other species? You could include those from the Monsters of the Multiverse if you want more variety. Make sure that the player knows that the character will get all of their equipment as well as class levels/skills/abilities back.
- wish them farewell on their journey to find another game if they aren't interested in any of the options. Its possible that once they find out that characters can die they won't be interested in playing at all because the game will be too stressful for them.
3) Most of these problems could have been headed off by having the divine intervention restore the character and their stuff - possibly by re-writing history and whispering to the character involved about the risk before they approached the sphere and helping them to pass their save instead of fail it. Divine intervention is completely at the whim of the DM and can do literally anything you can imagine. So as DM use it. The choice of reincarnation might have been intended to penalize the player with some negative effect after it became clear that losing the character was upsetting them and the DM didn't want the event to occur without consequences but it would have been better to avoid that approach in the first place. This is especially true when a character actually successfully rolled for divine intervention - that is something which is rare and unlikely and not something to rely on so in this case you could use the almost death as a warning to all the players that their characters can die.
Anyway, if the person is a friend and you want to keep them playing then you'll need to come up with a retcon or adjustment that is acceptable to that player and everyone else, keeping in mind that it is not necessarily a bad thing for a player to become attached enough to their character that losing them is a challenge. It shows that they are invested in the character and the game. If they didn't care at all then they might be an even more challenging player for different reasons.
Should the encounter be negated entirely by divine intervention and the character looses nothing. In fact could very well gain from it.
Or should the character be at least a little penalized by not getting everything they want?
Remember that the character made several bad decisions and several failed saving throws.
If a DM constantly corrects the mistakes players make then when does the player learn to play some other way than he is currently playing?
The character failed a series of saving throws and fell victim to a trap. I don’t see where any bad decisions were described. OP does indicate later on that the player is problematic at times, whatever that entails specifically is not made clear but OOC problems are fixed with OOC conversations, not by busting your player’s chops in game when their character dies.
I find the notion that it’s a DM’s job to train a player at all but especially train a player through punishment extremely distasteful. Death is punishment in and of itself, even if the character ends up getting brought back some way. The experience of losing the character over the course of gameplay is traumatic to a player invested in their character. That trauma is the consequence of the failed saving throws. DM’s really need to understand this and abandon the notion that some extra lesson needs to be taught to players when their character dies. It’s not your job to teach your players a lesson, it’s your job to work with them to have fun. Don’t torment your players and don’t be vindictive.
I have a problem and can’t figure out how to handle it. So in last nights game, we had a player fall prey to the Sphere of Annihilation trap. He failed the saves many times and as a chance to be saved by the party, I made them roll initiative to see who went first. The person who went before the player, casted polymorph and turned them into a rat in hopes that someone could grab him or he wouldn’t climb the statue. He was still under the affects of the spell effect of Antipathy/Sympathy spell like the simple trap in the DMG suggests, so on his round, he ran up the statue and into the mouth of the statue and into the Sphere.
So, my problem comes from the wording of both Sphere of Annihilation and Polymorph. Polymorph states when a creature reaches 0 hp it reverts back to its normal form where as the Sphere states it obliterates anything that passes through it. Right now I’m more looking for suggestions because the way I see it, his body turns back to normal but his head and a portion of his upper torso is completely gone from being obliterated by the Sphere, and the lower half of his body falls to the ground, rather than him and everything is just gone. Body and magical items are just vaporized into nothingness.
Im looking for ways to handle this situation so I don’t loose a player and give the other players a chance to keep a teammate. Also, I should note, that the cleric made his divine intervention roll and the outcome was reincarnation because he was polymorphed into a rat and jumped into the Sphere. I’m looking for a better way to deal with the situation because I have a player that doesn’t want to play as the race he was reincarnated into which I do understand there will be som reconing of game play and so do the players.
Any suggestions?
It seems to me that the Sphere should win here and the character is just entirely obliterated. As such, I'm not clear how there was any divine intervention involved since that requires an action and the character has already been obliterated. This just seems like a situation where typically that player just rolls up a new character and you create some narrative reason for when and how and why that character joins up with the rest of the existing party in the next session.
When you say you don't want to lose a player -- are you talking about losing the character or losing the player? Has the player said that they won't play if their character dies? That's the sort of thing that is ideally talked about in advance so if you are in that situation now it's hard to say what would be the best suggestion other than just talking through it with the player and see if they will change their mind.
So, a different player used his divine intervention the next round and rolled a 3 for it to work.
The player did say because his character was reincarnated into a Saytre, that his soul wouldn't return and that he just didn't want to play because he was really upset that his character died.
It sounds to me like you played it all by the book. I think you could retcon that they get reincarnated as their original race... I'm not necessarily on the player's side on this. I feel like, if you're not prepared for your character to potentially die, you should make sure all the players at the table agree that death is off the table. On top of that, I personally think the game is more boring if the chance of death is completely off the table, but to each their own.
Anyway, I think the fact that this spell was cast on them through Divine Intervention gives some more freedom to you, as the DM, to cater the results more to the players. If an actual, in-game, capital "G" God is the one doing the resurrection, it's easier to accept that they push the needle to the player's favor a bit more. If you don't want to retcon, you could promise the player that you'll fix it and then the next time they go to sleep they have a vision of said God... roleplay a little scene or something and they wake up in their original body (or at least a body that's the same race).
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Imma go with TransmorpherDDS on this.
I usually have “active deities” — that is, you can run into them at the tavern, or along the side of the road, or the might be praying in temple next to you — so when stuff like that happens I have the ability to look at how things are going to impact the “fun”of everyone.
But death is a big deal. It is the stakes of the situation, and a sphere of annihilating is exactly that: it annhiliates anything that enters it. your solution for it works for me, but the reincarnation thing?
That’s your sticking point. So look at how that might happen. I would have hte god decide they want that character to do something and yank their soul back, take a long look into their heart, and then do a whole “powerful god doing crazy stuff” like “motes of light coalesce into the character, but looking ten years older” or something like that, and make sure that the player understands the god has a purpose and a timetable, lol.
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.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
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What we did, was do a random roll for player character race, and the player decided that he didn’t want to return because he didn’t want to play as what was rolled. Human was rolled twice and saytre was rolled once and he didn’t agree to any of it and as per the spell, the body was made, the soul was still unwilling to return. The player in question is also a difficult player to deal with at times.
If it’s a difficult player, call his bluff. Characters die in D&D. His character died. He can roll a new one, or leave the game.
The reincarnation bit makes it even worse. You tried to find a compromise, but he’s throwing a tantrum.
So either stick with the reincarnation (which to me is always a super fun option to role play, but that’s not really relevant here) or make a whole new character, or he can leave. Don’t let him bully you.
It would be reasonable for a god to know the PC wo7ld not want to be another race and cast true resurrection instead of reincarnate but having said that I agree with Xalthu.
If the Divine Intervention had not worked the PC would be dead. Do you want to play a video game where if you die you go back to 5he start of the dungeon and run it again or do you want death to be real.
As a GM, if I have a player that doesn't want to lose his character - then he doesn't lose his character. Now, if said character was returned, but now as maybe a ratling, I'd stick with that, and tell the player: Your character doesn't want to be a ratling - for all the understandable reasons. But right now, he is. We can work to fix that, but right now, in this dungeon, you're going to have to roll with it.
And then I'd work, off-stage, to create a couple of instances where it might be a significant advantage to be a ratling.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
My question is: why was the Reincarnation spell used? If my memory is correct, then by rolling Divine Intervention (at least in 5e), then the Gods just *do something*. Who decided at your table that that means Reincarnation was cast? Did the Cleric specifically ask for that as opposed to another spell? Did they just say they want the player back, and you as the DM decided it was gonna be Reincarnation?
I agree with the other posters, but also posit that if it's you who is forcing the Reincarnation as opposed to a different method of revival, then this might feel a bit retaliatory or confrontational to the player.
There are other revival spells that bring the PC back to their original body. Why didn't Divine Intervention do one of those spells?
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
It was an already problem player.
He was given a chance to come back but refused. He just didn't want to come back as anything other than his original race. He could have later been changed back into his original race. Which would have provided a whole new quest for him or the party. Which is part of the games intention.
Any spell cast by anyone including a god would ans should require a quest for the service. Unless the god owes him something equal in value.
Well, I don't have the full context, but based just on what I've read in this thread it kind of feels like you're better off without them.
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Slide him a new character sheet and ask him to fill in the species he would prefer. :)
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Agree with the general concensus that they died, and their options are to reincarnate as another race (which you have made clear they could fix later) or to make a new character. They have said they do not want to reincarnate.
Ask them about their new character to see what they would like to play.
Alternate option:
I anticipate your player will be a problem with this too, but it could be worth a shot.
The cleric used Divine Intervention to try and bring them back, and that means that a god/goddess directly intervened, taking their precious time, and the character's soul refused them. That's one heck of an insult to the god in question. So have an opposition to that god bring their soul back, and offer them their body in exchange for their services. Their next level will need to be Warlock, with their choice of patron (make the figure shadowy and indistinct for the first meeting) and they get to come back as they were. But oh, there are most definitely strings attached.
Alternatively, if you anticipate them being belligerent on not wanting to take a Warlock class (sounds like they are powergaming, if they are so attached to their race it'll likely be that this will upset them) then make their "patron" a story thing where they make suggestions and requests. If they refuse too much, they will send "The Collector" a powerful enemy, to take them out again. The Collector has the ability that the accused cannot harm them, so it falls to the party to save them. If they do, then they have an enemy, but the curse disappears.
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Reincarnate is a Druid spell so I don't know why a Cleric's Divine Intervention would favour a Druid only spell instead of a resurrection spell on the Cleric list. Like True Resurrection.
So I don't understand why there is some issue? The body got annihilated, Divine Intervention succeeded, so just True Res them back and move on? Everybody wins?
Am I missing something here?
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Yes the cleric asked for divine intervention.
That does not limit the god who answered to just cleric spells. They are gods and can have any combination of spells and abilities they like.
Maybe the god didn't think the dead character was worth their best efforts and did the minimum.
Yes, but this is a co-operative game not kick-players-when-they're-down game.
So far it's "hey, here's an instant kill destroy-your-body trap, just for lulz" >> "oh you died, oh" >> "a divine intervention which could enable me to avoid player permadeath and let them continue having fun? NAH I'll take this moment to "**** you" to the player and use a totally irrelevant spell?" >> "well now the player did not like my kick to their nuts, lets go on the forums and ask strangers!"
And more bizarrely , the part that is really boggling my mind here : the majority of the advice is "tough shit for player"? o.O
There is no reason here why this divine intervention had to be a reincarnate which the player is unhappy with? Why not just use true res, retconning if needed, so everybody is happy? Why is only 1 other person bringing up this incredibly obvious best-for-everyone solution?!
Sorry, this is just confusing me. Again, I feel like I'm missing something.
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There are a few issues you may want to address here ...
1) Did the players know and agree that characters dying was something that might happen? This is part of setting expectations.
2) However, even with that, there are many players who will feel very bad losing a character that they have spent a long time playing. If the player is saying that they don't want to play that character as a different species and that they may just decide not to play at all then they may mean that. On the other hand, give them a few days to think about it and also chat with them 1:1 to discuss options to see what they would be interested in doing.
- retcon that the divine intervention was true resurrection instead of reincarnation. The cleric rolled it and was successful in getting it so I'd likely have leaned towards the result that the player would have preferred.
- would the player like to start a completely different character at the same level and have them join the party? It would give them something completely different to do. If they want the other character back then the party could work towards getting them resurrected.
- it doesn't sound like the player is interested in other species you have rolled randomly, is there any interest in any other species? You could include those from the Monsters of the Multiverse if you want more variety. Make sure that the player knows that the character will get all of their equipment as well as class levels/skills/abilities back.
- wish them farewell on their journey to find another game if they aren't interested in any of the options. Its possible that once they find out that characters can die they won't be interested in playing at all because the game will be too stressful for them.
3) Most of these problems could have been headed off by having the divine intervention restore the character and their stuff - possibly by re-writing history and whispering to the character involved about the risk before they approached the sphere and helping them to pass their save instead of fail it. Divine intervention is completely at the whim of the DM and can do literally anything you can imagine. So as DM use it. The choice of reincarnation might have been intended to penalize the player with some negative effect after it became clear that losing the character was upsetting them and the DM didn't want the event to occur without consequences but it would have been better to avoid that approach in the first place. This is especially true when a character actually successfully rolled for divine intervention - that is something which is rare and unlikely and not something to rely on so in this case you could use the almost death as a warning to all the players that their characters can die.
Anyway, if the person is a friend and you want to keep them playing then you'll need to come up with a retcon or adjustment that is acceptable to that player and everyone else, keeping in mind that it is not necessarily a bad thing for a player to become attached enough to their character that losing them is a challenge. It shows that they are invested in the character and the game. If they didn't care at all then they might be an even more challenging player for different reasons.
The core issue is really this.
Should the encounter be negated entirely by divine intervention and the character looses nothing. In fact could very well gain from it.
Or should the character be at least a little penalized by not getting everything they want?
Remember that the character made several bad decisions and several failed saving throws.
If a DM constantly corrects the mistakes players make then when does the player learn to play some other way than he is currently playing?
The character failed a series of saving throws and fell victim to a trap. I don’t see where any bad decisions were described. OP does indicate later on that the player is problematic at times, whatever that entails specifically is not made clear but OOC problems are fixed with OOC conversations, not by busting your player’s chops in game when their character dies.
I find the notion that it’s a DM’s job to train a player at all but especially train a player through punishment extremely distasteful. Death is punishment in and of itself, even if the character ends up getting brought back some way. The experience of losing the character over the course of gameplay is traumatic to a player invested in their character. That trauma is the consequence of the failed saving throws. DM’s really need to understand this and abandon the notion that some extra lesson needs to be taught to players when their character dies. It’s not your job to teach your players a lesson, it’s your job to work with them to have fun. Don’t torment your players and don’t be vindictive.