So you can ready a spell and get the full effect of the spell with no real restrictions.
But poor martials with extra attack trade in their attack action with multiple attacks for a ready action that just attacks once. WHY? Seems like an easy fix to say:
Simple fix: (bolded is the addition):
"Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action (or as part of a Readied Attack action) on your turn."
This prevents extra attack on opportunity attacks which makes sense to me, and provides martials with the same tactical options as their casting peers (i.e., martials can delay their full capabilities just like casters).
When a caster is using the ready action for the spell, they are concentrating the entire time up till its cast or continues concentrating if the spell requires it. So when the caster is concentrating on that ready action and fail a concentration check then they lose the spell as normal for concentration.
Fair - there is a tiny bit of additional risk. Most casters I know nearly never lose concentration unless they are outright downed. It is far too easy to buff this part of your character and make concentration a very low risk.
But the ready action is an action you are choosing. So you are forgoing your normal attack to do something that you can't normally do at the time you want to do it. Otherwise, there is no reason the players or monsters have during their turn in the round to make their attack. To an extent, the initiative goes out the window. You could just declare that you want to take your round when the time comes, such as I will take my round when the troll is within reach. But what if it doesn't ever arrive? The troll you said you wanted to attack never comes near you. Now you don't get to make that attack. Wasted effort. That is true even now but still, it falls into line with a typical game round in combat. Is the risk worth the reward?
What you players should do instead is just change their Initiative order. I allow players during combat to hold their round to whatever they want down to being last. Then they get their full-round action if they choose but then they are letting the opponents go before them. However, now that is their new Initiative for the rest of combat.
In the end, you can run the game however you want as a DM. There is nothing wrong with you ruling it that way. I just personally feel the way it is written (though poorly written) is the best balance for this version of DnD.
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I live my life like a West Marches campaign, A swirling vortex of Ambitions and Insecurities.
Swapping or moving initiative is cool, and I think a very reasonable mechanic that gives a nice tactical choice. It would be an improvement over the current state.
That said the "ready" action itself isn't bad. But it seems like the designers go out of their way to punish martials - like why nerf extra attack here when they nerf no other action someone might ready?
The whole idea with the Ready action is that you are setting up a Reaction. In many cases you will execute your Reaction on someone else's turn (which is another reason why Extra Attack wouldn't apply -- that feature must be used on your own turn). Activity when reacting to something really should be limited. It doesn't make sense to be able to take an entire turn as a reaction to something happening on someone else's turn. It's just a quick reaction, like you reach out and stab at someone as they walk by, or you are about to be hit by a missile weapon and as a reflex you put up a magical shield. You want the bulk of your activity to occur on your own turn so that the "relative speed" abstraction provided by the initiative mechanic actually means something.
It still has its uses though. Suppose you are a Fighter and you've used up your movement. You look around and every enemy is currently behind full cover so you literally cannot attack anything right now. This might be a good opportunity to use a Ready action so that you can react to seeing any enemy that moves into your line of sight with a quick reactionary attack. Instead of just waiting until your next turn, you've set up a chance to make an additional attack "for free" that you wouldn't have gotten at all if you had just ended your turn by doing nothing. You still get all of your attacks on your next turn AND you get this reaction attack before that, if the trigger presents itself.
It's just another tactical option that's available. It shouldn't necessarily be used as a default action on every turn. The idea for delaying your initiative used to exist in previous versions of the game -- this mechanic specifically replaces that in 5e so adding that back in as a homebrew might be pretty unbalanced.
Once you hit tier 2, the ready action is terrible for pretty much everyone. I would say the penalties for casters (concentration, chance to lose spell) are even worse than the penalties for martials (lose extra attack).
The whole idea with the Ready action is that you are setting up a Reaction. In many cases you will execute your Reaction on someone else's turn (which is another reason why Extra Attack wouldn't apply -- that feature must be used on your own turn). Activity when reacting to something really should be limited. It doesn't make sense to be able to take an entire turn as a reaction to something happening on someone else's turn. It's just a quick reaction, like you reach out and stab at someone as they walk by, or you are about to be hit by a missile weapon and as a reflex you put up a magical shield. You want the bulk of your activity to occur on your own turn so that the "relative speed" abstraction provided by the initiative mechanic actually means something.
It still has its uses though. Suppose you are a Fighter and you've used up your movement. You look around and every enemy is currently behind full cover so you literally cannot attack anything right now. This might be a good opportunity to use a Ready action so that you can react to seeing any enemy that moves into your line of sight with a quick reactionary attack. Instead of just waiting until your next turn, you've set up a chance to make an additional attack "for free" that you wouldn't have gotten at all if you had just ended your turn by doing nothing. You still get all of your attacks on your next turn AND you get this reaction attack before that, if the trigger presents itself.
It's just another tactical option that's available. It shouldn't necessarily be used as a default action on every turn. The idea for delaying your initiative used to exist in previous versions of the game -- this mechanic specifically replaces that in 5e so adding that back in as a homebrew might be pretty unbalanced.
I'd agree with you if casters were also limited to "quick reactionary things" but they aren't. They aren't really limited in any way in terms of what they can choose. They face a little added risk in that the spell might get disrupted but that doesn't nerf them like martials get nerfed.
You want reactions to be quick and simple actions that's cool, then the designers should apply it equally to all things you might do.
It works differently for casters because they've already cast the spell, so they've used up the spell slot which is a significant investment for something that may or may not happen. So they are concentrating on holding back the spell effect until their reaction is triggered, and then they simply release it, which is quick and easy effort -- it's just like dropping something out of your hand at that point so it makes sense to be able to do that as a reaction. I think that it's pretty well balanced between casters and martials even though the actual tradeoffs are different, but I can see why you might argue that casters are favored there, it's pretty subjective.
The whole idea with the Ready action is that you are setting up a Reaction. In many cases you will execute your Reaction on someone else's turn (which is another reason why Extra Attack wouldn't apply -- that feature must be used on your own turn). Activity when reacting to something really should be limited. It doesn't make sense to be able to take an entire turn as a reaction to something happening on someone else's turn. It's just a quick reaction, like you reach out and stab at someone as they walk by, or you are about to be hit by a missile weapon and as a reflex you put up a magical shield. You want the bulk of your activity to occur on your own turn so that the "relative speed" abstraction provided by the initiative mechanic actually means something.
It still has its uses though. Suppose you are a Fighter and you've used up your movement. You look around and every enemy is currently behind full cover so you literally cannot attack anything right now. This might be a good opportunity to use a Ready action so that you can react to seeing any enemy that moves into your line of sight with a quick reactionary attack. Instead of just waiting until your next turn, you've set up a chance to make an additional attack "for free" that you wouldn't have gotten at all if you had just ended your turn by doing nothing. You still get all of your attacks on your next turn AND you get this reaction attack before that, if the trigger presents itself.
It's just another tactical option that's available. It shouldn't necessarily be used as a default action on every turn. The idea for delaying your initiative used to exist in previous versions of the game -- this mechanic specifically replaces that in 5e so adding that back in as a homebrew might be pretty unbalanced.
I'd agree with you if casters were also limited to "quick reactionary things" but they aren't. They aren't really limited in any way in terms of what they can choose. They face a little added risk in that the spell might get disrupted but that doesn't nerf them like martials get nerfed.
You want reactions to be quick and simple actions that's cool, then the designers should apply it equally to all things you might do.
The spellcaster must cast the spell and use their concentration to hold the energy until the trigger occurs. Somethings to consider:
1) The spellcaster can only concentrate on one spell at a time. So if the spellcaster is concentrating on spell already then they cannot Ready another spell or must break concentration on the current spell in order to do so. 2) To suggest spellcasters are facing little added risk is an understatement. There are several instances in the game that require spellcasters to make a concentration check to maintain a spell. The most common being when a caster takes damage. There is a reason many caster invest in a feature or feat that allows them to have advantage on CON saves or just boost their CON and stack bonuses for saving throws. It is not uncommon for both PCs and Monsters (who are casters in the game) to have to make multiple CON saves in a round to maintain concentration on the spell. 3) If the triggering effect doesn't occur, and the action is wasted, then the spellcaster has wasted a spell slot. The spell is cast as a condition of Ready and the slot is consumed; the risk is that the triggering effect never occurs.
The quick and simple action is that the spellcaster releases the energy from the spell that they have already casted. So they are holding it while waiting for the triggering effect to occur. If it does, then they cease concentration, and the spell is release and performs as normal. But the trade off is that they have already casted the spell and expended the spell slot, so there is more at stake then just missing an action during a round of combat.
The whole idea with the Ready action is that you are setting up a Reaction. In many cases you will execute your Reaction on someone else's turn (which is another reason why Extra Attack wouldn't apply -- that feature must be used on your own turn). Activity when reacting to something really should be limited. It doesn't make sense to be able to take an entire turn as a reaction to something happening on someone else's turn. It's just a quick reaction, like you reach out and stab at someone as they walk by, or you are about to be hit by a missile weapon and as a reflex you put up a magical shield. You want the bulk of your activity to occur on your own turn so that the "relative speed" abstraction provided by the initiative mechanic actually means something.
It still has its uses though. Suppose you are a Fighter and you've used up your movement. You look around and every enemy is currently behind full cover so you literally cannot attack anything right now. This might be a good opportunity to use a Ready action so that you can react to seeing any enemy that moves into your line of sight with a quick reactionary attack. Instead of just waiting until your next turn, you've set up a chance to make an additional attack "for free" that you wouldn't have gotten at all if you had just ended your turn by doing nothing. You still get all of your attacks on your next turn AND you get this reaction attack before that, if the trigger presents itself.
It's just another tactical option that's available. It shouldn't necessarily be used as a default action on every turn. The idea for delaying your initiative used to exist in previous versions of the game -- this mechanic specifically replaces that in 5e so adding that back in as a homebrew might be pretty unbalanced.
I'd agree with you if casters were also limited to "quick reactionary things" but they aren't. They aren't really limited in any way in terms of what they can choose. They face a little added risk in that the spell might get disrupted but that doesn't nerf them like martials get nerfed.
You want reactions to be quick and simple actions that's cool, then the designers should apply it equally to all things you might do.
The spellcaster must cast the spell and use their concentration to hold the energy until the trigger occurs. Somethings to consider:
1) The spellcaster can only concentrate on one spell at a time. So if the spellcaster is concentrating on spell already then they cannot Ready another spell or must break concentration on the current spell in order to do so. 2) To suggest spellcasters are facing little added risk is an understatement. There are several instances in the game that require spellcasters to make a concentration check to maintain a spell. The most common being when a caster takes damage. There is a reason many caster invest in a feature or feat that allows them to have advantage on CON saves or just boost their CON and stack bonuses for saving throws. It is not uncommon for both PCs and Monsters (who are casters in the game) to have to make multiple CON saves in a round to maintain concentration on the spell. 3) If the triggering effect doesn't occur, and the action is wasted, then the spellcaster has wasted a spell slot. The spell is cast as a condition of Ready and the slot is consumed; the risk is that the triggering effect never occurs.
The quick and simple action is that the spellcaster releases the energy from the spell that they have already casted. So they are holding it while waiting for the triggering effect to occur. If it does, then they cease concentration, and the spell is release and performs as normal. But the trade off is that they have already casted the spell and expended the spell slot, so there is more at stake then just missing an action during a round of combat.
On #1 - I'll concede this one is actually a cost for casters, and not one I had considered. On #2 - I think we have to agree to disagree. While I agree that concentration checks happen, I've yet to encounter many game situations where it was a meaningful risk because of the pursuit of buffs you mention (as well as many others that are available). One #3 - I mean that just comes with the general cost of caster vs martial. If you're going to say this favors martials then you're just saying the poor casters have limited resources (which usually isn't that big of a deal past tier 1).
Its interesting how you can easily see how a caster could hold magical energy they already cast and then release it quickly, but you can't envision a skilled martial moving their weapon more than once. I think this is the core problem with DnD - casters are allowed to be high fantasy and martials have to somehow "be realistic". I think its a core problem and maybe one I'll never be able to fully overcome because my high fantasy includes martials doing unbelievably superhuman things and the 5e designers only want the truly amazing stuff to be "from magic".
I think its a core problem and maybe one I'll never be able to fully overcome because my high fantasy includes martials doing unbelievably superhuman things and the 5e designers only want the truly amazing stuff to be "from magic".
And they can. They just can't do it as much as a reaction on someone else's turn.
I have to agree with the others tbh, using the ready action comes with a higher cost for casters than martials. Wasting the spells (and spellslot) due to taking damage is one thing (and maybe not that common I'd agree) but you will also waste the spell/slot if you want to use a normal reaction spell like Shield or Counterspell or if you want to make an opportunity attack.
I think its a core problem and maybe one I'll never be able to fully overcome because my high fantasy includes martials doing unbelievably superhuman things and the 5e designers only want the truly amazing stuff to be "from magic".
And they can. They just can't do it as much as a reaction on someone else's turn.
I have to agree with the others tbh, using the ready action comes with a higher cost for casters than martials. Wasting the spells (and spellslot) due to taking damage is one thing (and maybe not that common I'd agree) but you will also waste the spell/slot if you want to use a normal reaction spell like Shield or Counterspell or if you want to make an opportunity attack.
Fair - there is a tiny bit of additional risk. Most casters I know nearly never lose concentration unless they are outright downed. It is far too easy to buff this part of your character and make concentration a very low risk.
The risk of losing the spell by failing a con save for concentration is fairly small compared to losing the spell slot if the trigger does not happen in the round.
The biggest problem for casters however is they often already have a concentration spell up; a cleric is likely to have cast bless or spirit guardians, a wizard might be concentrating on faerie fire or hypnotic pattern) and then they can not ready a spell at all unless they are will to end the spell they are currently concentration on.
The whole idea with the Ready action is that you are setting up a Reaction. In many cases you will execute your Reaction on someone else's turn (which is another reason why Extra Attack wouldn't apply -- that feature must be used on your own turn). Activity when reacting to something really should be limited. It doesn't make sense to be able to take an entire turn as a reaction to something happening on someone else's turn. It's just a quick reaction, like you reach out and stab at someone as they walk by, or you are about to be hit by a missile weapon and as a reflex you put up a magical shield. You want the bulk of your activity to occur on your own turn so that the "relative speed" abstraction provided by the initiative mechanic actually means something.
It still has its uses though. Suppose you are a Fighter and you've used up your movement. You look around and every enemy is currently behind full cover so you literally cannot attack anything right now. This might be a good opportunity to use a Ready action so that you can react to seeing any enemy that moves into your line of sight with a quick reactionary attack. Instead of just waiting until your next turn, you've set up a chance to make an additional attack "for free" that you wouldn't have gotten at all if you had just ended your turn by doing nothing. You still get all of your attacks on your next turn AND you get this reaction attack before that, if the trigger presents itself.
It's just another tactical option that's available. It shouldn't necessarily be used as a default action on every turn. The idea for delaying your initiative used to exist in previous versions of the game -- this mechanic specifically replaces that in 5e so adding that back in as a homebrew might be pretty unbalanced.
I'd agree with you if casters were also limited to "quick reactionary things" but they aren't. They aren't really limited in any way in terms of what they can choose. They face a little added risk in that the spell might get disrupted but that doesn't nerf them like martials get nerfed.
You want reactions to be quick and simple actions that's cool, then the designers should apply it equally to all things you might do.
The spellcaster must cast the spell and use their concentration to hold the energy until the trigger occurs. Somethings to consider:
1) The spellcaster can only concentrate on one spell at a time. So if the spellcaster is concentrating on spell already then they cannot Ready another spell or must break concentration on the current spell in order to do so. 2) To suggest spellcasters are facing little added risk is an understatement. There are several instances in the game that require spellcasters to make a concentration check to maintain a spell. The most common being when a caster takes damage. There is a reason many caster invest in a feature or feat that allows them to have advantage on CON saves or just boost their CON and stack bonuses for saving throws. It is not uncommon for both PCs and Monsters (who are casters in the game) to have to make multiple CON saves in a round to maintain concentration on the spell. 3) If the triggering effect doesn't occur, and the action is wasted, then the spellcaster has wasted a spell slot. The spell is cast as a condition of Ready and the slot is consumed; the risk is that the triggering effect never occurs.
The quick and simple action is that the spellcaster releases the energy from the spell that they have already casted. So they are holding it while waiting for the triggering effect to occur. If it does, then they cease concentration, and the spell is release and performs as normal. But the trade off is that they have already casted the spell and expended the spell slot, so there is more at stake then just missing an action during a round of combat.
On #1 - I'll concede this one is actually a cost for casters, and not one I had considered. On #2 - I think we have to agree to disagree. While I agree that concentration checks happen, I've yet to encounter many game situations where it was a meaningful risk because of the pursuit of buffs you mention (as well as many others that are available). One #3 - I mean that just comes with the general cost of caster vs martial. If you're going to say this favors martials then you're just saying the poor casters have limited resources (which usually isn't that big of a deal past tier 1).
Its interesting how you can easily see how a caster could hold magical energy they already cast and then release it quickly, but you can't envision a skilled martial moving their weapon more than once. I think this is the core problem with DnD - casters are allowed to be high fantasy and martials have to somehow "be realistic". I think its a core problem and maybe one I'll never be able to fully overcome because my high fantasy includes martials doing unbelievably superhuman things and the 5e designers only want the truly amazing stuff to be "from magic".
Because releasing concentration does not require an action. As stated, it can also be dropped against a character's will. The extra attack requires the character to take the Attack action.
Reading your own statement, the spellcaster has already done something (past tense) and holding (present tense) while the martial character is waiting to do something (future tense). So the caster only needs to release/relax/cease/stop so that something already in progress can proceed while the martial character needs to start. And that is the difference between how the characters are using their Ready action . The martial character is preparing and will act if the triggering effect takes place. The caster has already performed an action but is holding it and will only release it if the trigger effect takes place.
Regarding you comments about martial characters being superhuman; there is a subclass of Barbarian that allows them to Rage even after they have potentially "died" (0 hit points); a feature of the Fighter allows an instance for the character to regain hit points; Monks can catch missiles, Barbarians can shrug off being beaten, sliced and stabbed.
There is a class feature for the Monk that grants the "ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during your move". I mean Jesus Christ, literally, could only do half of that (it is well documented).
There are (sub)class features that can manipulate the outcome of attacks of Monsters, auto succeed on save throws, stun creatures or at minimum prevent them from moving with a single hit, and much more. And I will agree that there is room for improvement with martial (sub)classes. I am not saying that they are perfect but I don't think that the classes are bounded to "be realistic". There is room for questioning if a feature or Feat can be improved but there is a foundation of these characters being more than "realistic".
On#2: Mitigating risk is not the same as eliminating risk. The fact that players invest so much of their resources preparing for CON saves for concentration is evidence that the risk exists and the outcome can be costly. A decent amount of time in gameplay is dedicated to PCs, NPCs, and Monsters making CON saves for concentration; and it is a very exciting part of the game. Maybe you will experience it more as you play; but the despair of a party member losing concentration on a spell or the excitement at the table when someone cause the Monster to lose the concentration are some of the more memorable and fun times at the table.
On#3: I am not sure what the current economic status of the caster has to do with this but we are not talking about the general cost associated with disparity between what a caster and martial can do. This is about the topic of the Ready action and if a player takes the Ready action to cast a level spell they lose the spell slot even without the triggering effect occurring. This can be huge because the Ready action is often taken when the party has to anticipate something. Examples might be guarding a doorway or providing cover for the rouge to snatch an item. So turn after turn after turn party members may be taking the Ready action. If the spellcasters chooses to Ready a level spell and the trigger effect does not occur then the spell slot is used up and the effects of the spell do not occur. So the archer can Ready their bow; but if the guard doesn't enter the courtyard during the round the archer can Ready their bow on their next turn but the arrow doesn't vanish from their inventory. If a spellcaster takes the Ready action for a level spell then the spell slot is used. If guard doesn't trigger the release of the spell this round and the caster opts to Ready a level spell on their next turn (over multiple turns) they can run out of slots while gaining no benefit from their use. This essentially leaves casters with the option to either cast a cantrip or use a weapon/wand/device when they have to take the Ready action. This is an example of how the game developers leave options for the players, but essentially lock out capabilities for the spellcaster; because most players of a spellcaster will require an extremely high level of assurance the triggering effect will take place before considering to Ready a level spell. Is the option there? Yes. But is worth spending one's only 3rd level slot with the risk of not benefitting from the spells? In most cases, the answer is it is not worth the risk.
Regarding the topic of the Ready action; it is not a debate of limited resources of spell slots vs consistency of multi-attacks. It is the conversation that the martial can ready an attack turn after turn after turn until the triggering effect happens but the spellcaster loses the spell slot each turn if they continue to Ready a level spell.
Regarding the topic of the Ready action; it is not a debate of limited resources of spell slots vs consistency of multi-attacks. It is the conversation that the martial can ready an attack turn after turn after turn until the triggering effect happens but the spellcaster loses the spell slot each turn if they continue to Ready a level spell.
But everyone keeps telling me that martials are fine because they have all these resources that don't run out. Then in a situation where those "infinite" resources would be useful "oh no, we can't let the martials be good at this because the poor casters lose spell slots". Clearly the designers agree with this attitude so ...
So....I don't want to pry into your game.. That is my hesitation. But I am not seeing what you are experiencing at your table vs the games I am playing.
From an "infinite" standpoint....it depends what we are talking about. All characters regardless of class have limited Hit Die. Fighters have features that can be used in limited amount of times between a replenish point. A Fighter can execute their mulit-attack every Action but a Wizard (for example) runs out of level spells for their Action. So the previous is what most individuals are referencing as the "infinite' element. It is the the Action in an encounter: Spellcaster can run out of Level Spells to Cast; but Martial doesn't have a limit on Attacks.
So if you can point out the specifics where you feel limited vs a spellecaster in your party who isn't; then we can talk about that in more detail.
From my tables. There are sessions where the casters are consistently going down. I have been in game where I spend my spell slots on Misty Step or Dimension Door; or I have to recast a spell cause I keep losing my concentration. That is my bias. That is my experience influencing my perception of play. If you can define a moment where your feel your character is being limited but another class character seems to keep progressing then we can discuss a game deficiency vs other options. I don't doubt what you are experiencing; and I am willing to listen the specifics and willing to discuss based on your experiences.
I agree with the others that there are costs for a caster readying a spell (other than a cantrip when they aren't concentrating on something else).
1) Readying a spell requires concentration preventing other concentration spells and ending anything else the caster might have been concentrating on.
2) Readying a spell expends the resources whether or not the trigger is ever met. If the trigger never happens, the caster wasted a turn and a spell slot.
3) Concentration can be broken by damage or other effects.
One advantage of readying a spell is that it can not be counterspelled. A caster could stand behind total cover, cast fireball as a readied action, set the trigger as seeing a group of enemies, step out from behind cover and trigger the spell as a reaction - it still eats their reaction for the turn though.
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Finally, in terms of con saves, I find this depends a lot on level of play. If a character has enough ASIs then they can pick up feats like resilient con and warcaster. Combine those with a 16 con in tier 3 with a proficiency of +4 and maybe a ring of protection and the character has +8 to con saves possibly rolled with advantage. They only fail a con save on a 1. Even if they take 30 damage at once, they only need to roll a 7 with advantage. In that level of game where a character has invested in the abilities, losing concentration due to damage happens somewhat rarely.
Consider though a typical caster in a tier 1 or early tier 2 game, they boost their primary stat at level 4, their con is 12 or 14. The only caster with proficiency in con saves is the sorcerer. A wizard/bard/druid/cleric/warlock are looking at a +1 or +2 to con saves. Even a basic DC10 from any damage at all stands a 40-45% chance of failing. So even one hit on the caster has a reasonable chance of disrupting the readied spell.
An opponent using magic missile can force 3 concentration saving throws using one first level spell. Most low level casters will end up failing the concentration save.
So, how important concentration saving throws can be varies a lot by table and tier of play depending on level of magic, focus on character optimization and other effects.
Just want to point out that this is not a problem for all martials. Rogues only hit once anyway, and can deliver the full power of Sneak Attack via a readied action.
For reasons already stated in this thread, a Readied action is not supposed to be as powerful as a normal Action (rogue would seem to break this, but position is very important to them and they lose control of that outside of their turn). Weakening a multi-attacker is easy, but a blanket rule that weakens a spell is really hard because spells vary a lot in their mechanics. So they use other means to ensure that Readying a spell is going to be risky in many situations.
So you can ready a spell and get the full effect of the spell with no real restrictions.
But poor martials with extra attack trade in their attack action with multiple attacks for a ready action that just attacks once. WHY? Seems like an easy fix to say:
Simple fix: (bolded is the addition):
"Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action (or as part of a Readied Attack action) on your turn."
This prevents extra attack on opportunity attacks which makes sense to me, and provides martials with the same tactical options as their casting peers (i.e., martials can delay their full capabilities just like casters).
When a caster is using the ready action for the spell, they are concentrating the entire time up till its cast or continues concentrating if the spell requires it. So when the caster is concentrating on that ready action and fail a concentration check then they lose the spell as normal for concentration.
Fair - there is a tiny bit of additional risk. Most casters I know nearly never lose concentration unless they are outright downed. It is far too easy to buff this part of your character and make concentration a very low risk.
But the ready action is an action you are choosing. So you are forgoing your normal attack to do something that you can't normally do at the time you want to do it. Otherwise, there is no reason the players or monsters have during their turn in the round to make their attack. To an extent, the initiative goes out the window. You could just declare that you want to take your round when the time comes, such as I will take my round when the troll is within reach. But what if it doesn't ever arrive? The troll you said you wanted to attack never comes near you. Now you don't get to make that attack. Wasted effort. That is true even now but still, it falls into line with a typical game round in combat. Is the risk worth the reward?
What you players should do instead is just change their Initiative order. I allow players during combat to hold their round to whatever they want down to being last. Then they get their full-round action if they choose but then they are letting the opponents go before them. However, now that is their new Initiative for the rest of combat.
In the end, you can run the game however you want as a DM. There is nothing wrong with you ruling it that way. I just personally feel the way it is written (though poorly written) is the best balance for this version of DnD.
I live my life like a West Marches campaign, A swirling vortex of Ambitions and Insecurities.
Swapping or moving initiative is cool, and I think a very reasonable mechanic that gives a nice tactical choice. It would be an improvement over the current state.
That said the "ready" action itself isn't bad. But it seems like the designers go out of their way to punish martials - like why nerf extra attack here when they nerf no other action someone might ready?
The whole idea with the Ready action is that you are setting up a Reaction. In many cases you will execute your Reaction on someone else's turn (which is another reason why Extra Attack wouldn't apply -- that feature must be used on your own turn). Activity when reacting to something really should be limited. It doesn't make sense to be able to take an entire turn as a reaction to something happening on someone else's turn. It's just a quick reaction, like you reach out and stab at someone as they walk by, or you are about to be hit by a missile weapon and as a reflex you put up a magical shield. You want the bulk of your activity to occur on your own turn so that the "relative speed" abstraction provided by the initiative mechanic actually means something.
It still has its uses though. Suppose you are a Fighter and you've used up your movement. You look around and every enemy is currently behind full cover so you literally cannot attack anything right now. This might be a good opportunity to use a Ready action so that you can react to seeing any enemy that moves into your line of sight with a quick reactionary attack. Instead of just waiting until your next turn, you've set up a chance to make an additional attack "for free" that you wouldn't have gotten at all if you had just ended your turn by doing nothing. You still get all of your attacks on your next turn AND you get this reaction attack before that, if the trigger presents itself.
It's just another tactical option that's available. It shouldn't necessarily be used as a default action on every turn. The idea for delaying your initiative used to exist in previous versions of the game -- this mechanic specifically replaces that in 5e so adding that back in as a homebrew might be pretty unbalanced.
Once you hit tier 2, the ready action is terrible for pretty much everyone. I would say the penalties for casters (concentration, chance to lose spell) are even worse than the penalties for martials (lose extra attack).
I'd agree with you if casters were also limited to "quick reactionary things" but they aren't. They aren't really limited in any way in terms of what they can choose. They face a little added risk in that the spell might get disrupted but that doesn't nerf them like martials get nerfed.
You want reactions to be quick and simple actions that's cool, then the designers should apply it equally to all things you might do.
It works differently for casters because they've already cast the spell, so they've used up the spell slot which is a significant investment for something that may or may not happen. So they are concentrating on holding back the spell effect until their reaction is triggered, and then they simply release it, which is quick and easy effort -- it's just like dropping something out of your hand at that point so it makes sense to be able to do that as a reaction. I think that it's pretty well balanced between casters and martials even though the actual tradeoffs are different, but I can see why you might argue that casters are favored there, it's pretty subjective.
The spellcaster must cast the spell and use their concentration to hold the energy until the trigger occurs. Somethings to consider:
1) The spellcaster can only concentrate on one spell at a time. So if the spellcaster is concentrating on spell already then they cannot Ready another spell or must break concentration on the current spell in order to do so.
2) To suggest spellcasters are facing little added risk is an understatement. There are several instances in the game that require spellcasters to make a concentration check to maintain a spell. The most common being when a caster takes damage. There is a reason many caster invest in a feature or feat that allows them to have advantage on CON saves or just boost their CON and stack bonuses for saving throws. It is not uncommon for both PCs and Monsters (who are casters in the game) to have to make multiple CON saves in a round to maintain concentration on the spell.
3) If the triggering effect doesn't occur, and the action is wasted, then the spellcaster has wasted a spell slot. The spell is cast as a condition of Ready and the slot is consumed; the risk is that the triggering effect never occurs.
The quick and simple action is that the spellcaster releases the energy from the spell that they have already casted. So they are holding it while waiting for the triggering effect to occur. If it does, then they cease concentration, and the spell is release and performs as normal. But the trade off is that they have already casted the spell and expended the spell slot, so there is more at stake then just missing an action during a round of combat.
On #1 - I'll concede this one is actually a cost for casters, and not one I had considered.
On #2 - I think we have to agree to disagree. While I agree that concentration checks happen, I've yet to encounter many game situations where it was a meaningful risk because of the pursuit of buffs you mention (as well as many others that are available).
One #3 - I mean that just comes with the general cost of caster vs martial. If you're going to say this favors martials then you're just saying the poor casters have limited resources (which usually isn't that big of a deal past tier 1).
Its interesting how you can easily see how a caster could hold magical energy they already cast and then release it quickly, but you can't envision a skilled martial moving their weapon more than once. I think this is the core problem with DnD - casters are allowed to be high fantasy and martials have to somehow "be realistic". I think its a core problem and maybe one I'll never be able to fully overcome because my high fantasy includes martials doing unbelievably superhuman things and the 5e designers only want the truly amazing stuff to be "from magic".
And they can. They just can't do it as much as a reaction on someone else's turn.
I have to agree with the others tbh, using the ready action comes with a higher cost for casters than martials. Wasting the spells (and spellslot) due to taking damage is one thing (and maybe not that common I'd agree) but you will also waste the spell/slot if you want to use a normal reaction spell like Shield or Counterspell or if you want to make an opportunity attack.
At least they will nerf counterspell I guess.
The risk of losing the spell by failing a con save for concentration is fairly small compared to losing the spell slot if the trigger does not happen in the round.
The biggest problem for casters however is they often already have a concentration spell up; a cleric is likely to have cast bless or spirit guardians, a wizard might be concentrating on faerie fire or hypnotic pattern) and then they can not ready a spell at all unless they are will to end the spell they are currently concentration on.
Because releasing concentration does not require an action. As stated, it can also be dropped against a character's will. The extra attack requires the character to take the Attack action.
Reading your own statement, the spellcaster has already done something (past tense) and holding (present tense) while the martial character is waiting to do something (future tense). So the caster only needs to release/relax/cease/stop so that something already in progress can proceed while the martial character needs to start. And that is the difference between how the characters are using their Ready action . The martial character is preparing and will act if the triggering effect takes place. The caster has already performed an action but is holding it and will only release it if the trigger effect takes place.
Regarding you comments about martial characters being superhuman; there is a subclass of Barbarian that allows them to Rage even after they have potentially "died" (0 hit points); a feature of the Fighter allows an instance for the character to regain hit points; Monks can catch missiles, Barbarians can shrug off being beaten, sliced and stabbed.
There is a class feature for the Monk that grants the "ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during your move". I mean Jesus Christ, literally, could only do half of that (it is well documented).
There are (sub)class features that can manipulate the outcome of attacks of Monsters, auto succeed on save throws, stun creatures or at minimum prevent them from moving with a single hit, and much more. And I will agree that there is room for improvement with martial (sub)classes. I am not saying that they are perfect but I don't think that the classes are bounded to "be realistic". There is room for questioning if a feature or Feat can be improved but there is a foundation of these characters being more than "realistic".
On#2: Mitigating risk is not the same as eliminating risk. The fact that players invest so much of their resources preparing for CON saves for concentration is evidence that the risk exists and the outcome can be costly. A decent amount of time in gameplay is dedicated to PCs, NPCs, and Monsters making CON saves for concentration; and it is a very exciting part of the game. Maybe you will experience it more as you play; but the despair of a party member losing concentration on a spell or the excitement at the table when someone cause the Monster to lose the concentration are some of the more memorable and fun times at the table.
On#3: I am not sure what the current economic status of the caster has to do with this but we are not talking about the general cost associated with disparity between what a caster and martial can do. This is about the topic of the Ready action and if a player takes the Ready action to cast a level spell they lose the spell slot even without the triggering effect occurring. This can be huge because the Ready action is often taken when the party has to anticipate something. Examples might be guarding a doorway or providing cover for the rouge to snatch an item. So turn after turn after turn party members may be taking the Ready action. If the spellcasters chooses to Ready a level spell and the trigger effect does not occur then the spell slot is used up and the effects of the spell do not occur. So the archer can Ready their bow; but if the guard doesn't enter the courtyard during the round the archer can Ready their bow on their next turn but the arrow doesn't vanish from their inventory. If a spellcaster takes the Ready action for a level spell then the spell slot is used. If guard doesn't trigger the release of the spell this round and the caster opts to Ready a level spell on their next turn (over multiple turns) they can run out of slots while gaining no benefit from their use. This essentially leaves casters with the option to either cast a cantrip or use a weapon/wand/device when they have to take the Ready action. This is an example of how the game developers leave options for the players, but essentially lock out capabilities for the spellcaster; because most players of a spellcaster will require an extremely high level of assurance the triggering effect will take place before considering to Ready a level spell. Is the option there? Yes. But is worth spending one's only 3rd level slot with the risk of not benefitting from the spells? In most cases, the answer is it is not worth the risk.
Regarding the topic of the Ready action; it is not a debate of limited resources of spell slots vs consistency of multi-attacks. It is the conversation that the martial can ready an attack turn after turn after turn until the triggering effect happens but the spellcaster loses the spell slot each turn if they continue to Ready a level spell.
But everyone keeps telling me that martials are fine because they have all these resources that don't run out. Then in a situation where those "infinite" resources would be useful "oh no, we can't let the martials be good at this because the poor casters lose spell slots". Clearly the designers agree with this attitude so ...
So....I don't want to pry into your game.. That is my hesitation. But I am not seeing what you are experiencing at your table vs the games I am playing.
From an "infinite" standpoint....it depends what we are talking about. All characters regardless of class have limited Hit Die. Fighters have features that can be used in limited amount of times between a replenish point. A Fighter can execute their mulit-attack every Action but a Wizard (for example) runs out of level spells for their Action. So the previous is what most individuals are referencing as the "infinite' element. It is the the Action in an encounter: Spellcaster can run out of Level Spells to Cast; but Martial doesn't have a limit on Attacks.
So if you can point out the specifics where you feel limited vs a spellecaster in your party who isn't; then we can talk about that in more detail.
From my tables. There are sessions where the casters are consistently going down. I have been in game where I spend my spell slots on Misty Step or Dimension Door; or I have to recast a spell cause I keep losing my concentration. That is my bias. That is my experience influencing my perception of play. If you can define a moment where your feel your character is being limited but another class character seems to keep progressing then we can discuss a game deficiency vs other options. I don't doubt what you are experiencing; and I am willing to listen the specifics and willing to discuss based on your experiences.
I agree with the others that there are costs for a caster readying a spell (other than a cantrip when they aren't concentrating on something else).
1) Readying a spell requires concentration preventing other concentration spells and ending anything else the caster might have been concentrating on.
2) Readying a spell expends the resources whether or not the trigger is ever met. If the trigger never happens, the caster wasted a turn and a spell slot.
3) Concentration can be broken by damage or other effects.
One advantage of readying a spell is that it can not be counterspelled. A caster could stand behind total cover, cast fireball as a readied action, set the trigger as seeing a group of enemies, step out from behind cover and trigger the spell as a reaction - it still eats their reaction for the turn though.
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Finally, in terms of con saves, I find this depends a lot on level of play. If a character has enough ASIs then they can pick up feats like resilient con and warcaster. Combine those with a 16 con in tier 3 with a proficiency of +4 and maybe a ring of protection and the character has +8 to con saves possibly rolled with advantage. They only fail a con save on a 1. Even if they take 30 damage at once, they only need to roll a 7 with advantage. In that level of game where a character has invested in the abilities, losing concentration due to damage happens somewhat rarely.
Consider though a typical caster in a tier 1 or early tier 2 game, they boost their primary stat at level 4, their con is 12 or 14. The only caster with proficiency in con saves is the sorcerer. A wizard/bard/druid/cleric/warlock are looking at a +1 or +2 to con saves. Even a basic DC10 from any damage at all stands a 40-45% chance of failing. So even one hit on the caster has a reasonable chance of disrupting the readied spell.
An opponent using magic missile can force 3 concentration saving throws using one first level spell. Most low level casters will end up failing the concentration save.
So, how important concentration saving throws can be varies a lot by table and tier of play depending on level of magic, focus on character optimization and other effects.
Of course there is no cost to ready a cantrip and since cantrips scale with level...
Just want to point out that this is not a problem for all martials. Rogues only hit once anyway, and can deliver the full power of Sneak Attack via a readied action.
For reasons already stated in this thread, a Readied action is not supposed to be as powerful as a normal Action (rogue would seem to break this, but position is very important to them and they lose control of that outside of their turn). Weakening a multi-attacker is easy, but a blanket rule that weakens a spell is really hard because spells vary a lot in their mechanics. So they use other means to ensure that Readying a spell is going to be risky in many situations.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm