If you’re wielding a weapon and have learned its mastery property, you’ll be able to use that mastery property every turn when you make an attack with the weapon.
The problem here is that you wouldnt make the attack until your bonus action. Nick is effectively applying before you attack with the weapon because it's moving the weapon attack to the attack action. Unless it's supposed to apply for the next weapon attack. In which case you would attack with it first.
Unless that wasn't the intent and Nick follows the pattern of all the other weapon masteries. I.e. You must use the weapon to attack, then Nick moves the bonus action attack that you take later to the attack action (which would need to be made with a light weapon per the light property.)
In order to follow the same pattern, it must actually say that it does. The Nick mastery property lacks the wording that all of the other mastery property descriptions use.
We know from this video with Devs that Weapon Mastery is intended to be used with their weapon respectively.
'If you're a character,, wether a fighter, a barbarian, a rogue a paladin, a ranger or someone who has otherwised unlocked the ability to use Weapon Mastery, suddenly when you use the dagger, because of your mastery with the weapon, you will be able to unlock its mastery property''
Yep, even without them saying so, this is pretty obviously the intent.
However, what is written in the rules is that these properties are unlocked simply by having the feature that unlocks them. For the Fighter's version of the feature, for example, the "training" which creates your "mastery with the weapon" actually occurs either when you first gain the feature or during a long rest.
When it's time to actually use the weapon mastery property that has been mastered by the character, the property itself will specify how the weapon must be used in order to gain the benefit of that mastery property. The Nick property just doesn't specify this in the way that all of the other properties do.
It's just a simple oversight and a very easy fix (just add 3 words to the description) if they ever bother to fix it. Meanwhile, we will all just house rule it in the common sense way.
I would argue that given this thread and my initial reading of the Nick property, it isn't that obvious.
I completely agree.
From a house rule perspective, sure just use whatever you feel like. But people look at the official rules for guidance and the intended way of things should be crystal clear.
Attack with a dagger to activate the Nick property, so that the second attack with a different light weapon can then be made as part of the same attack action.
Make the second attack with a Nick weapon in order to make that attack as part of the same attack action.
Both interpretations make sense to me and I find nothing in the rules (or this thread) that convinces me that either one should be used over the other. Which one you choose to go with can have pretty huge implication e.g. for a rogue dual-wielding a dagger and shortsword.
While I initially thought number one was the correct way to go since all other Weapon Masteries require you to use the weapon first to trigger the weapon mastery, it is so weird having to tell players they need to attack with their dagger first to trigger the ability regardless of whether or not they hit. I think from a pure ease of play, option 2 just makes it a lot easier because then you take all your main attacks, then the extra attacks.
It almost doesn't matter with the rogue. It really just determines whether or not they could have advantage in round 1 with the dagger. After that, they will still get advantage with the dagger attack.
Well if they fight a bunch of low HP/AC mobs it can make the difference of having sneak attack every round or not.
Advantage only matters if you are fighting against high AC monsters. Also if you are needing Nick, then you need your bonus action for something. Either for the thief's Steady Aim which will grant you advantage anyway, or some other option like Dual Wielder. (Which really makes this discussion pointless because with three attacks you are just changing the order they occur in. )
I’m playing a Ranger Hunter at level 3 using TWF and Hunter’s Mark.
I carry a pair of Shortswords and a Scimitar.
When I’m casting or moving HM, I always keep my Scimitar on hand to leverage Nick. When HM is already applied, I sheathe the Scimitar and draw the second Shortsword to leverage Vex and start a chain of advantage. It’s awesome.
Main problem is that my concentration sucks and I need to re-cast HM often, so my BA is more busy than usual.
I’m playing a Ranger Hunter at level 3 using TWF and Hunter’s Mark.
I carry a pair of Shortswords and a Scimitar.
When I’m casting or moving HM, I always keep my Scimitar on hand to leverage Nick. When HM is already applied, I sheathe the Scimitar and draw the second Shortsword to leverage Vex and start a chain of advantage. It’s awesome.
Main problem is that my concentration sucks and I need to re-cast HM often, so my BA is more busy than usual.
Yeah, concentration checks are difficult. Good news is you only have to survive until level 11ish.
My main point is that it isn't a huge loss if you have to attack with the Nick weapon first to allow you to move your shortsword attack to the main attack action. Because your attack on round 2 gets the advantage.
I suppose if you are a rogue who relies on advantage to get sneak attack if might be an issue. But it should be easy enough to attack someone that is already being attacked.
If you’re wielding a weapon and have learned its mastery property, you’ll be able to use that mastery property every turn when you make an attack with the weapon.
The problem here is that you wouldnt make the attack until your bonus action. Nick is effectively applying before you attack with the weapon because it's moving the weapon attack to the attack action. Unless it's supposed to apply for the next weapon attack. In which case you would attack with it first.
Nick doesn't apply before the attack, but during it. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action.
I offered the following explanation on a different thread. I'll paste it here for your consideration:
The Nick Mastery Property of a weapon describes action economy (i.e. wielding time). The weapon with Nick can be used first OR second.
Light. "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action...with a different Light weapon, and you don't add your ability modifier...unless that modifier is negative." (2024 PHB, pg. 213-214)
Thematically, this makes sense. It's feasible for someone with a weapon in each hand to strike with both in rapid succession, if not simultaneously, with the off-hand generally not hitting as hard as the dominant one. The requirement for this is simply that both weapons have the Light property. The sequence in which the weapons are used is irrelevant.
As pointed out previously, all the other Mastery Properties incorporate the use of "...this weapon..." somewhere in the description. This is because the other Mastery Properties (Graze, Push, Vex, etc.) result in a specific effect on the target (or another nearby - Cleave) as a result of the use of that particular weapon.
Nick. "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action." (2024 PHB, pg. 214)
The Nick Mastery Property doesn't incorporate that language because it doesn't impose an effect on the target. It simply means you can use that particular weapon even faster than the Light Property alone. Instead of requiring an action and a bonus action, your mastery of weapons with the Nick Property allows you to fit two attacks within the time span of one attack action.
As speed of use, rather than effect on target, is the benefit of the Nick property, it doesn't matter if you use the Nick weapon first or second; both attacks still take the same total amount of time - one action.
For example, if I have magical peanut butter that helps me make a PB&J in half the time it normally takes, it doesn't matter if I spread the peanut butter first or the jelly; I'm making the whole magical sandwich in half the time.
As long as one of the two different Light weapons used has the Nick Mastery Property, the wielder gets the time benefit regardless of the order in which the weapons are used.
So, if the second attack with the Light weapon is supposed to be a bonus action (as per the new rules on two-weapon fighting), having Extra Attack would only provide a fourth swing of either weapon, since the Nick property can only be used once per turn. Is that correct or am I misunderstanding the rules of when I can use Mastery properties?
So, if the second attack with the Light weapon is supposed to be a bonus action (as per the new rules on two-weapon fighting), having Extra Attack would only provide a fourth swing of either weapon, since the Nick property can only be used once per turn. Is that correct or am I misunderstanding the rules of when I can use Mastery properties?
Extra Attack gives you one extra attack as part of an Attack action. It doesn't affect anything to do with the Light property or the Nick weapon mastery property.
So, if the second attack with the Light weapon is supposed to be a bonus action (as per the new rules on two-weapon fighting), having Extra Attack would only provide a fourth swing of either weapon, since the Nick property can only be used once per turn. Is that correct or am I misunderstanding the rules of when I can use Mastery properties?
For me, it is vague, poorly written, not well thought out, or a combination of these things, hence the number of threads all over asking the same questions.
Take this with a grain of salt, as this is just my opinion, but I wouldn't mind hearing people's opinions about it...
Unlike the other Masteries which are worded in such a way to tie directly to that weapon, Nick doesn't, so I interpret it as more of a "persistent" effect you get when you are wielding at least one weapon with the Nick mastery.
In fluff terms.... Once you have mastered a weapon with the Nick Mastery, you are able to best utilize that weapons weight, balance, flow, and natural kinetic motion when paired with another light weapon, allowing you to attack twice in almost perfect unison. Weapons with the Nick Mastery can be used to make a main attack or an off-hand attack with such deftness, that the wielder is able to also attack with a different light weapon, leaving them fractions of seconds to potentially do some other "cunning" action.
In other words, as long as both weapons are light, and at least one of the weapons has the Nick Mastery, you have mastered "slipping in" the extra attack, either first or second.
Then throw in Dual Wielder, Two-Weapon Fighting, or any of the other features that add more attacks for more head-spinning fun.
The nick rules aren't well written or clear and I don't understand how it wasn't addressed in the errata that released months after the books came out.
According to what I read ... if you have the nick mastery known that day you don't need to use a weapon with nick at any point to gain the benefits. That's the only mastery that works this way.
So, rules as written, as long as you have nick mastery known and trigger the light weapon property bonus attack then you can instead make that extra attack during your attack action instead of it being a bonus action attack as per the light property. Absolutely nothing in the nick mastery or the light weapon property requires that any weapon with the nick mastery property gets used at any point in the attack.
So, if a ranger uses one weapon mastery on scimitar for nick and another on shortsword for vex. They don't even need to touch or own a scimitar to get full access to the nick weapon mastery when they attack using a pair of shortswords.
At no point do you need to use or hold anything with the nick property.
Every other mastery has "this weapon" verbiage. Nick only requires that you trigger the extra attack from the light weapon property.
This feels like an obvious oversight and it's frustrating it hasn't been addressed. It isn't like they would intentionally put nick on four separate weapons when, rules as written, if you know ANY of them they all function exactly the same.
The nick rules aren't well written or clear and I don't understand how it wasn't addressed in the errata that released months after the books came out.
According to what I read ... if you have the nick mastery known that day you don't need to use a weapon with nick at any point to gain the benefits. That's the only mastery that works this way.
So, rules as written, as long as you have nick mastery known and trigger the light weapon property bonus attack then you can instead make that extra attack during your attack action instead of it being a bonus action attack as per the light property. Absolutely nothing in the nick mastery or the light weapon property requires that any weapon with the nick mastery property gets used at any point in the attack.
So, if a ranger uses one weapon mastery on scimitar for nick and another on shortsword for vex. They don't even need to touch or own a scimitar to get full access to the nick weapon mastery when they attack using a pair of shortswords.
At no point do you need to use or hold anything with the nick property.
Every other mastery has "this weapon" verbiage. Nick only requires that you trigger the extra attack from the light weapon property.
This feels like an obvious oversight and it's frustrating it hasn't been addressed. It isn't like they would intentionally put nick on four separate weapons when, rules as written, if you know ANY of them they all function exactly the same.
The Nick weapon Mastery is tied to light weapons and is only invoved when a weapon that has the Nick mastery is used.
Nick was tied to light weapons because the light weapon property was the only place it made sense to put it and the additional extra attack from the light property is from the 2014 version of Two-Weapon dual wielding fighting ability found in the combat section of 2014.
Unlike the other mastery’s, Nick only depends on the provisions that a user be dual wielding and thus giving a bonus action additional attack and that the different weapon is used offhand, again the lack of damage proficiency and the example confirms this.
The Dual Wielding Feat has the enhanced wielding section that clearly states a light weapon for the additional bonus action additional attack that can be made with a different weapon that does not require two hands to use when attacking, and clearly follows that the light weapon must have the Nick weapon mastery that would allow the non light weapon to used as part of the first attack action.
The Nick Weapon Mastery only lets a player transfer the additional attack you would normally make as a bonus action and make the attack as part of the normal Attack Action, and the Nick ability transfer attack can only be used once per turn.
It’s designed that way to prevent attack spamming, and if your dual wielding weapons, it gives you the ability to keep your bonus action of other things, even a third attack.( at the expense of foregoing the wielding of a shield.)
While some might think this is incorrect or not how it works, far too many different elements of the games rules point to the explanation I’ve given as being the intent of how it should work.
But as far as any mastery is concerned, it’s the weapon that has the mastery property that must be used in order to utilize the weapons intrinsic mastery.
A Nick Mastery weapon just lets you move a bonus action attack to the Attack Action and the bonus action attack must be granted from using a different weapon in the other hand. ( the other weapon can be non light if you have the Dual Wielder Feat, otherwise it has to be a different light property weapon.)
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
The nick rules aren't well written or clear and I don't understand how it wasn't addressed in the errata that released months after the books came out.
According to what I read ... if you have the nick mastery known that day you don't need to use a weapon with nick at any point to gain the benefits. That's the only mastery that works this way.
So, rules as written, as long as you have nick mastery known and trigger the light weapon property bonus attack then you can instead make that extra attack during your attack action instead of it being a bonus action attack as per the light property. Absolutely nothing in the nick mastery or the light weapon property requires that any weapon with the nick mastery property gets used at any point in the attack.
So, if a ranger uses one weapon mastery on scimitar for nick and another on shortsword for vex. They don't even need to touch or own a scimitar to get full access to the nick weapon mastery when they attack using a pair of shortswords.
At no point do you need to use or hold anything with the nick property.
Every other mastery has "this weapon" verbiage. Nick only requires that you trigger the extra attack from the light weapon property.
This feels like an obvious oversight and it's frustrating it hasn't been addressed. It isn't like they would intentionally put nick on four separate weapons when, rules as written, if you know ANY of them they all function exactly the same.
First of all, I suggest ignoring the above post. Some of it's correct, but Paradox_Traveler has some ...rather poorly-supported beliefs about the Light weapon rules, and they're only going to confuse the issue.
So, the rules do, indeed, not actually say exactly what it means to use the Nick mastery, but anybody who says that means you don't need to use the weapon at all in order to use the mastery is way out of the general consensus.
My interpretation of the missing statement is that it creates ambiguity as to what part of the attack is the part in which you use the Nick mastery:
It could be that you use it when you make the initial attack with a Light weapon, enabling you to take the extra attack later
It could be that you use it when you make the additional attack
In either case, you still need to actually use the Nick weapon, the question is merely when.
Many other people will argue that their interpretation of when you must use the Nick weapon is clearly the only correct one, or that you can use it for either part, but they're all agreed that you need to use a Nick weapon as part of the process.
RAW may be screwy, but RAI is not so unclear as to allow for not using the weapon.
(My personal preference is "use a Nick weapon for the extra attack," but it is a table ruling in the lack of clear RAW.)
What this ultimately means is that you need to check in with your DM as to exactly how the mechanics work. You can try to convince them on the "you don't need to actually use the Nick weapon at all" argument, but I would expect it to go poorly.
The nick rules aren't well written or clear and I don't understand how it wasn't addressed in the errata that released months after the books came out.
According to what I read ... if you have the nick mastery known that day you don't need to use a weapon with nick at any point to gain the benefits. That's the only mastery that works this way.
So, rules as written, as long as you have nick mastery known and trigger the light weapon property bonus attack then you can instead make that extra attack during your attack action instead of it being a bonus action attack as per the light property. Absolutely nothing in the nick mastery or the light weapon property requires that any weapon with the nick mastery property gets used at any point in the attack.
So, if a ranger uses one weapon mastery on scimitar for nick and another on shortsword for vex. They don't even need to touch or own a scimitar to get full access to the nick weapon mastery when they attack using a pair of shortswords.
At no point do you need to use or hold anything with the nick property.
Every other mastery has "this weapon" verbiage. Nick only requires that you trigger the extra attack from the light weapon property.
This feels like an obvious oversight and it's frustrating it hasn't been addressed. It isn't like they would intentionally put nick on four separate weapons when, rules as written, if you know ANY of them they all function exactly the same.
First of all, I suggest ignoring the above post. Some of it's correct, but Paradox_Traveler has some ...rather poorly-supported beliefs about the Light weapon rules, and they're only going to confuse the issue.
So, the rules do, indeed, not actually say exactly what it means to use the Nick mastery, but anybody who says that means you don't need to use the weapon at all in order to use the mastery is way out of the general consensus.
My interpretation of the missing statement is that it creates ambiguity as to what part of the attack is the part in which you use the Nick mastery:
It could be that you use it when you make the initial attack with a Light weapon, enabling you to take the extra attack later
It could be that you use it when you make the additional attack
In either case, you still need to actually use the Nick weapon, the question is merely when.
Many other people will argue that their interpretation of when you must use the Nick weapon is clearly the only correct one, or that you can use it for either part, but they're all agreed that you need to use a Nick weapon as part of the process.
RAW may be screwy, but RAI is not so unclear as to allow for not using the weapon.
(My personal preference is "use a Nick weapon for the extra attack," but it is a table ruling in the lack of clear RAW.)
What this ultimately means is that you need to check in with your DM as to exactly how the mechanics work. You can try to convince them on the "you don't need to actually use the Nick weapon at all" argument, but I would expect it to go poorly.
Well till Sage Advice really does clarify what the actual RAW is nether of us can say their way is the definitive way it should be handled.
But when far too many RAW rules in their entirety and context point to one thing, it’s kinda hard not to miss what the intent possibly is.
But till a more complete and definitive explanation is given, ask your DM.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
It seems like there are three ways this is being approached.
Rules as written. It does NOT ever say you need to touch or use the weapon with the nick property. You do need to have it known. You need to make attacks that involve a light weapon. Nothing within the rules as written specifically states that specific weapon with nick ever gets used. I don't like this even a little. But, I can respect that it DOES follow the rules in the book. There's no "this weapon" verbiage.
I've seen some people argue that it's the extra attack granted by mastery itself that is the attack that you're expected to make with the nick weapon. This makes the least sense to me. Though, at least this version is trying to assume that the designers wanted you to actually use the weapon with nick mastery when you attacked to take advantage of nick mastery. The issue I have with this is timing. Somehow you're granted the extra attack from nick mastery BEFORE you've used the weapon. And, it's the effect of that nick mastery that let's you THEN make the attack with that nick mastery weapon. This version basically invents a whole new mechanic. None of the other weapon masteries work this way AND the book doesn't expressly say this is how it should be done.
It sure seems to me like the way this SHOULD work is that you DO in fact have to use the weapon with nick mastery. The rules don't say that. But ... it seems like a very obvious oversight. But, it seems like you should follow the way ALL the other weapon masteries work. You attack with the weapon with the mastery and THAT triggers the effect. So, it isn't until after you've attacked with a weapon with nick mastery that you can do the extra attack that nick mastery grants you. And, that extra attack would be treated like the light weapon attack you could make during the bonus action, but it's being moved to the attack action. This follows what is in the book. The dagger attack (or whatever) is what creates the effect that gives you the extra attack.
Version 3 works the same way as the other masteries.
Vex? Attack with the vex mastery weapon THEN get the vex effect.
Cleave? Attack with the cleave mastery weapon THEN get the cleave effect.
Topple? Attack with the topple mastery weapon THEN get the topple effect.
Slow? Attack with the slow mastery weapon THEN get the slow effect.
Push? Attack with the push mastery weapon THEN get the push effect.
It feels like the weirdest interpretation is the second one where you decide you must use that weapon even though the book doesn't say so. And, that it just doesn't work like any other weapon mastery and uses a totally new mechanic that ALSO isn't spelled out in the book where you get the effect before you've used the weapon. Kinda like ... if you attacked with a vex weapon you got advantage on the attack roll with that weapon ... every single time you attacked with it. First you would get the effect of vex (advantage on an attack roll) and then you would make the attack with the weapon that has the vex property.
Because there's no real answer here, I feel like any of those three should be acceptable conclusions and the DM of the game has the final say about which version they use.
What are we? 8 months after the launch of the player's handbook? That feels like enough time to put out a digital statement. Yeah? SOMEONE working there can make the ruling.
Cleaning it up requires adding a small number of words (in blue). It's either
When you make the extra attack of the light property with this weapon, you can make it as part of the attack action instead of as a Bonus Action.
The other is slightly more wording change:
When you make the extra attack granted byof the light property of this weapon, you can make it as part of the attack action instead of as a Bonus Action.
You can also make one more change to clarify the Dual Wielder feat:
When you make anthe extra attack granted byof the light property of this weapon, you can make it as part of the attack action instead of as a Bonus Action.
This would definitely mean that dual wielder does not grant an additional bonus action attack. Again, is it intended? Who knows?
Cleaning it up requires adding a small number of words (in blue). It's either
When you make the extra attack of the light property with this weapon, you can make it as part of the attack action instead of as a Bonus Action.
The other is slightly more wording change:
When you make the extra attack granted byof the light property of this weapon, you can make it as part of the attack action instead of as a Bonus Action.
You can also make one more change to clarify the Dual Wielder feat:
When you make anthe extra attack granted byof the light property of this weapon, you can make it as part of the attack action instead of as a Bonus Action.
This would definitely mean that dual wielder does not grant an additional bonus action attack. Again, is it intended? Who knows?
No offense, but that is infinitely worse than it currently is. It implies the weapon that has the Nick Mastery is the bonus action extra attack. The Light property and Dual Wielding Feat both state the bonus action extra attack is made with a different weapon, so that would raise a new problem.
Just reword Nick to say it just allows the bonus action extra attack of the light weapon property to be made as part of the Attack Action, and does not use your bonus action. this mastery can be used once per turn.
Sounds the same and fits better.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
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The problem here is that you wouldnt make the attack until your bonus action. Nick is effectively applying before you attack with the weapon because it's moving the weapon attack to the attack action. Unless it's supposed to apply for the next weapon attack. In which case you would attack with it first.
Advantage only matters if you are fighting against high AC monsters. Also if you are needing Nick, then you need your bonus action for something. Either for the thief's Steady Aim which will grant you advantage anyway, or some other option like Dual Wielder. (Which really makes this discussion pointless because with three attacks you are just changing the order they occur in. )
I’m playing a Ranger Hunter at level 3 using TWF and Hunter’s Mark.
I carry a pair of Shortswords and a Scimitar.
When I’m casting or moving HM, I always keep my Scimitar on hand to leverage Nick. When HM is already applied, I sheathe the Scimitar and draw the second Shortsword to leverage Vex and start a chain of advantage. It’s awesome.
Main problem is that my concentration sucks and I need to re-cast HM often, so my BA is more busy than usual.
Yeah, concentration checks are difficult. Good news is you only have to survive until level 11ish.
My main point is that it isn't a huge loss if you have to attack with the Nick weapon first to allow you to move your shortsword attack to the main attack action. Because your attack on round 2 gets the advantage.
I suppose if you are a rogue who relies on advantage to get sneak attack if might be an issue. But it should be easy enough to attack someone that is already being attacked.
Nick doesn't apply before the attack, but during it. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action.
I offered the following explanation on a different thread. I'll paste it here for your consideration:
The Nick Mastery Property of a weapon describes action economy (i.e. wielding time). The weapon with Nick can be used first OR second.
Light. "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action...with a different Light weapon, and you don't add your ability modifier...unless that modifier is negative." (2024 PHB, pg. 213-214)
Thematically, this makes sense. It's feasible for someone with a weapon in each hand to strike with both in rapid succession, if not simultaneously, with the off-hand generally not hitting as hard as the dominant one. The requirement for this is simply that both weapons have the Light property. The sequence in which the weapons are used is irrelevant.
As pointed out previously, all the other Mastery Properties incorporate the use of "...this weapon..." somewhere in the description. This is because the other Mastery Properties (Graze, Push, Vex, etc.) result in a specific effect on the target (or another nearby - Cleave) as a result of the use of that particular weapon.
Nick. "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action." (2024 PHB, pg. 214)
The Nick Mastery Property doesn't incorporate that language because it doesn't impose an effect on the target. It simply means you can use that particular weapon even faster than the Light Property alone. Instead of requiring an action and a bonus action, your mastery of weapons with the Nick Property allows you to fit two attacks within the time span of one attack action.
As speed of use, rather than effect on target, is the benefit of the Nick property, it doesn't matter if you use the Nick weapon first or second; both attacks still take the same total amount of time - one action.
For example, if I have magical peanut butter that helps me make a PB&J in half the time it normally takes, it doesn't matter if I spread the peanut butter first or the jelly; I'm making the whole magical sandwich in half the time.
As long as one of the two different Light weapons used has the Nick Mastery Property, the wielder gets the time benefit regardless of the order in which the weapons are used.
@Master__Yoda It's a good argument. I don't share the same view, but it's well-elaborated.
I'll leave some links to other discussions involving Nick below, just for people coming to this thread in 2025+.
So, if the second attack with the Light weapon is supposed to be a bonus action (as per the new rules on two-weapon fighting), having Extra Attack would only provide a fourth swing of either weapon, since the Nick property can only be used once per turn. Is that correct or am I misunderstanding the rules of when I can use Mastery properties?
Extra Attack gives you one extra attack as part of an Attack action. It doesn't affect anything to do with the Light property or the Nick weapon mastery property.
pronouns: he/she/they
Apart from @wagnarokkr explained, a similar question was asked here, in case you want to revisit the examples: Dual wield, Nick and light weapons (link to the specific reply)
For me, it is vague, poorly written, not well thought out, or a combination of these things, hence the number of threads all over asking the same questions.
Take this with a grain of salt, as this is just my opinion, but I wouldn't mind hearing people's opinions about it...
Unlike the other Masteries which are worded in such a way to tie directly to that weapon, Nick doesn't, so I interpret it as more of a "persistent" effect you get when you are wielding at least one weapon with the Nick mastery.
In fluff terms.... Once you have mastered a weapon with the Nick Mastery, you are able to best utilize that weapons weight, balance, flow, and natural kinetic motion when paired with another light weapon, allowing you to attack twice in almost perfect unison. Weapons with the Nick Mastery can be used to make a main attack or an off-hand attack with such deftness, that the wielder is able to also attack with a different light weapon, leaving them fractions of seconds to potentially do some other "cunning" action.
In other words, as long as both weapons are light, and at least one of the weapons has the Nick Mastery, you have mastered "slipping in" the extra attack, either first or second.
Then throw in Dual Wielder, Two-Weapon Fighting, or any of the other features that add more attacks for more head-spinning fun.
The nick rules aren't well written or clear and I don't understand how it wasn't addressed in the errata that released months after the books came out.
According to what I read ... if you have the nick mastery known that day you don't need to use a weapon with nick at any point to gain the benefits. That's the only mastery that works this way.
So, rules as written, as long as you have nick mastery known and trigger the light weapon property bonus attack then you can instead make that extra attack during your attack action instead of it being a bonus action attack as per the light property. Absolutely nothing in the nick mastery or the light weapon property requires that any weapon with the nick mastery property gets used at any point in the attack.
So, if a ranger uses one weapon mastery on scimitar for nick and another on shortsword for vex. They don't even need to touch or own a scimitar to get full access to the nick weapon mastery when they attack using a pair of shortswords.
At no point do you need to use or hold anything with the nick property.
Every other mastery has "this weapon" verbiage. Nick only requires that you trigger the extra attack from the light weapon property.
This feels like an obvious oversight and it's frustrating it hasn't been addressed. It isn't like they would intentionally put nick on four separate weapons when, rules as written, if you know ANY of them they all function exactly the same.
The Nick weapon Mastery is tied to light weapons and is only invoved when a weapon that has the Nick mastery is used.
Nick was tied to light weapons because the light weapon property was the only place it made sense to put it and the additional extra attack from the light property is from the 2014 version of Two-Weapon dual wielding fighting ability found in the combat section of 2014.
Unlike the other mastery’s, Nick only depends on the provisions that a user be dual wielding and thus giving a bonus action additional attack and that the different weapon is used offhand, again the lack of damage proficiency and the example confirms this.
The Dual Wielding Feat has the enhanced wielding section that clearly states a light weapon for the additional bonus action additional attack that can be made with a different weapon that does not require two hands to use when attacking, and clearly follows that the light weapon must have the Nick weapon mastery that would allow the non light weapon to used as part of the first attack action.
The Nick Weapon Mastery only lets a player transfer the additional attack you would normally make as a bonus action and make the attack as part of the normal Attack Action, and the Nick ability transfer attack can only be used once per turn.
It’s designed that way to prevent attack spamming, and if your dual wielding weapons, it gives you the ability to keep your bonus action of other things, even a third attack.( at the expense of foregoing the wielding of a shield.)
While some might think this is incorrect or not how it works, far too many different elements of the games rules point to the explanation I’ve given as being the intent of how it should work.
But as far as any mastery is concerned, it’s the weapon that has the mastery property that must be used in order to utilize the weapons intrinsic mastery.
A Nick Mastery weapon just lets you move a bonus action attack to the Attack Action and the bonus action attack must be granted from using a different weapon in the other hand. ( the other weapon can be non light if you have the Dual Wielder Feat, otherwise it has to be a different light property weapon.)
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
First of all, I suggest ignoring the above post. Some of it's correct, but Paradox_Traveler has some ...rather poorly-supported beliefs about the Light weapon rules, and they're only going to confuse the issue.
So, the rules do, indeed, not actually say exactly what it means to use the Nick mastery, but anybody who says that means you don't need to use the weapon at all in order to use the mastery is way out of the general consensus.
My interpretation of the missing statement is that it creates ambiguity as to what part of the attack is the part in which you use the Nick mastery:
In either case, you still need to actually use the Nick weapon, the question is merely when.
Many other people will argue that their interpretation of when you must use the Nick weapon is clearly the only correct one, or that you can use it for either part, but they're all agreed that you need to use a Nick weapon as part of the process.
RAW may be screwy, but RAI is not so unclear as to allow for not using the weapon.
(My personal preference is "use a Nick weapon for the extra attack," but it is a table ruling in the lack of clear RAW.)
What this ultimately means is that you need to check in with your DM as to exactly how the mechanics work. You can try to convince them on the "you don't need to actually use the Nick weapon at all" argument, but I would expect it to go poorly.
Well till Sage Advice really does clarify what the actual RAW is nether of us can say their way is the definitive way it should be handled.
But when far too many RAW rules in their entirety and context point to one thing, it’s kinda hard not to miss what the intent possibly is.
But till a more complete and definitive explanation is given, ask your DM.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
It seems like there are three ways this is being approached.
Version 3 works the same way as the other masteries.
It feels like the weirdest interpretation is the second one where you decide you must use that weapon even though the book doesn't say so. And, that it just doesn't work like any other weapon mastery and uses a totally new mechanic that ALSO isn't spelled out in the book where you get the effect before you've used the weapon. Kinda like ... if you attacked with a vex weapon you got advantage on the attack roll with that weapon ... every single time you attacked with it. First you would get the effect of vex (advantage on an attack roll) and then you would make the attack with the weapon that has the vex property.
Because there's no real answer here, I feel like any of those three should be acceptable conclusions and the DM of the game has the final say about which version they use.
What are we? 8 months after the launch of the player's handbook? That feels like enough time to put out a digital statement. Yeah? SOMEONE working there can make the ruling.
Cleaning it up requires adding a small number of words (in blue). It's either
The other is slightly more wording change:
You can also make one more change to clarify the Dual Wielder feat:
This would definitely mean that dual wielder does not grant an additional bonus action attack. Again, is it intended? Who knows?
No offense, but that is infinitely worse than it currently is. It implies the weapon that has the Nick Mastery is the bonus action extra attack. The Light property and Dual Wielding Feat both state the bonus action extra attack is made with a different weapon, so that would raise a new problem.
Just reword Nick to say it just allows the bonus action extra attack of the light weapon property to be made as part of the Attack Action, and does not use your bonus action. this mastery can be used once per turn.
Sounds the same and fits better.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.