Hi all, bit of a newbie! At my second to last session (2nd level rogue), I tried to attack with my short sword, then my dagger, then disengage. I was told (by another player) I couldn't disengage - using my dagger was my bonus action. Since I was new I just said "okay", but reviewing my character since then, I see I have mastery in daggers, which have nick, and "nick" says the dagger attack shouldn't count as a bonus action, correct?
If I'm incorrect, could someone please explain? If I am correct, any advice on how to bring this up next session without being all "well ackshually"?
Next time, just say that in the 2024 rules, with the Nick Mastery Property, the dagger both attacks are part of the attack action because of my Dagger Mastery; it doesn't use my bonus action. Then you might ask them if they have any new Mastery options they might be forgetting about. (I'm guessing they are not a martial class, but just in case.)
It probably won't hurt to declare you're using Nick as you make the Light attack the next few times so people can keep track of the sequence of features.
Hi all, bit of a newbie! At my second to last session (2nd level rogue), I tried to attack with my short sword, then my dagger, then disengage. I was told (by another player) I couldn't disengage - using my dagger was my bonus action. Since I was new I just said "okay", but reviewing my character since then, I see I have mastery in daggers, which have nick, and "nick" says the dagger attack shouldn't count as a bonus action, correct?
If I'm incorrect, could someone please explain? If I am correct, any advice on how to bring this up next session without being all "well ackshually"?
There is still some confusion over exactly how Nick works, so you may want to go over it with your DM and the other players
Some people view the Nick property as shifting the Bonus Action attack to the Attack action when you make your initial attack with the Nick weapon, whereas others view it the other way around -- when you make your Bonus Action attack with a Nick weapon, it shifts that attack to the Attack action
The way you described your attack sequence used interpretation #2, but the other player may be under the assumption it's #1 (in which case, you would need to attack with the dagger first to 'activate' Nick, then use the shortsword)
In practice it usually doesn't matter that much which one is which, especially at 2nd level, but best to clarify for everyone at the table in case one of the rare circumstances when it does matter comes up
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Hi all, bit of a newbie! At my second to last session (2nd level rogue), I tried to attack with my short sword, then my dagger, then disengage. I was told (by another player) I couldn't disengage - using my dagger was my bonus action. Since I was new I just said "okay", but reviewing my character since then, I see I have mastery in daggers, which have nick, and "nick" says the dagger attack shouldn't count as a bonus action, correct?
If I'm incorrect, could someone please explain? If I am correct, any advice on how to bring this up next session without being all "well ackshually"?
There is still some confusion over exactly how Nick works, so you may want to go over it with your DM and the other players
Some people view the Nick property as shifting the Bonus Action attack to the Attack action when you make your initial attack with the Nick weapon, whereas others view it the other way around -- when you make your Bonus Action attack with a Nick weapon, it shifts that attack to the Attack action
The way you described your attack sequence used interpretation #2, but the other player may be under the assumption it's #1 (in which case, you would need to attack with the dagger first to 'activate' Nick, then use the shortsword)
In practice it usually doesn't matter that much which one is which, especially at 2nd level, but best to clarify for everyone at the table in case one of the rare circumstances when it does matter comes up
Thank you (and everyone above!). Glad to know I'm not completely misinterpreting it! That there are two interpretations is great - I can bring it up and just ask if I was going out of preferred order.
Just a note: I haven't seen a single good justification for why it matters what order you do the Nick attack in. Both options should be fully acceptable as, either way, the Nick weapon is being used as part of the Attack action.
Just a note: I haven't seen a single good justification for why it matters what order you do the Nick attack in. Both options should be fully acceptable as, either way, the Nick weapon is being used as part of the Attack action.
It is a bit of a chicken or the egg situation. You have to use a Nick weapon to qualify for the extra attack. Normally, you would have to meet a criteria in order to get the benefit. You can make the case that for consistency, the Nick weapon must be used to make the initial attack. You can also make the case that only the Light property sets up a criteria that must be met (attacking with a Light weapon) and the Nick weapon has no criteria. The only difference I can think of that it makes is the extra attack must be after the first Light weapon attack. If you are using a Vex weapon, the interpretation that the Nick weapon must be the first weapon is disadvantageous.
Nick is the only weapon mastery that does not specify attacking "with this weapon". This may have been intentional or an oversight. Either way, if the order is critical to you, discuss with your GM beforehand to avoid any surprises.
It’s also worth checking, if you haven’t done so already, that your DM is using the 2024 rules. Weapon Masteries are a new feature and weren’t in the original 2014 version of 5th edition.
Thank you (and everyone above!). Glad to know I'm not completely misinterpreting it! That there are two interpretations is great - I can bring it up and just ask if I was going out of preferred order.
I agree there is a debate about the order when Nick is involved, and we don't have an updated SAC yet, but the intent was explained in the next article, along with an example using two weapons: Your Guide to Weapon Mastery in the 2024 Player's Handbook.
How to Use Weapon Mastery Properties
If you’re wielding a weapon and have learned its mastery property, you’ll be able to use that mastery property every turn when you make an attack with the weapon.
To explain the Nick property, we should briefly cover that being able to attack twice while dual-wielding Light weapons has subtly changed in the 2024 Player’s Handbook. Instead of being covered under Melee Attacks, the rules for dual-wielding Light weapons are covered under the Light weapon property.
It still functions the same way: When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can use a Bonus Action to make one attack with a different Light weapon you’re wielding.
The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.
Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
Just a note: I haven't seen a single good justification for why it matters what order you do the Nick attack in. Both options should be fully acceptable as, either way, the Nick weapon is being used as part of the Attack action.
Now that I think about it, the situation where it would come up most often is the one OP might be dealing with -- shortsword has Vex, so if the character has both those masteries, the dagger Nick attack could get advantage on the same turn if it comes second. Doing them the other way around delays the advantage until the next round
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Just a note: I haven't seen a single good justification for why it matters what order you do the Nick attack in. Both options should be fully acceptable as, either way, the Nick weapon is being used as part of the Attack action.
Now that I think about it, the situation where it would come up most often is the one OP might be dealing with -- shortsword has Vex, so if the character has both those masteries, the dagger Nick attack could get advantage on the same turn if it comes second. Doing them the other way around delays the advantage until the next round
Oh, that's a good point, I hadn't even thought of that!
With a measly 1d4 I'd been resigning myself to only use it if I didn't hit with the long sword, so I could "save" the Vex for the next turn (I'm really trying to prioritize getting sneak attack). I didn't even think of swapping hands! The ability modifier is the same for both so I suppose the loss would make no difference
Realize that for a rogue, the difference between a dagger (2.5 avg dmg) and a long sword (4.5 avg dmg) is only 2 hp. Plus, most rogues have a higher Dex than Str, so the difference once you add your dex or str mods to the damage calculation is probably nil. The real key to rogues, especially as you level up is getting your Sneak attack in so that you can roll Sneak Attack Dmg. Whenever possible try to either gain advantage (Vex, Steady Aim, Hiding, …) or attack an enemy that is distracted fighting one of your allies.
One of the justifications for the order things are done is Vex with a Rapier. If you hit with the Rapier Vex applies and you can roll with advantage with your dagger and add sneak attack damage to the dagger since Vex states you have advantage on your next attack. So as a Rogue order matters for your burst output. Then if you go into Monk you can do some flurry of blows as your bonus action. So at level 5 you can essential have 4 attacks in one round, at level 6 using focus points 6 attacks in one round.
One of the justifications for the order things are done is Vex with a Rapier. If you hit with the Rapier Vex applies and you can roll with advantage with your dagger and add sneak attack damage to the dagger since Vex states you have advantage on your next attack. So as a Rogue order matters for your burst output. Then if you go into Monk you can do some flurry of blows as your bonus action. So at level 5 you can essential have 4 attacks in one round, at level 6 using focus points 6 attacks in one round.
While rapier and dagger enthusiasts cry every time we have to remind them, rapier is not a light weapon and so cannot benefit from innate dual wielding. Even the dual wielder feat wouldn't work for this specific sequence because you must make the Light Weapon attack first to then use the #NotATwoHandedWeapon attack later.
Since it hadn't been brought up yet in this thread, I'll just point out that it's possible that either the OP or the players at OP's table were confusing the concepts and rules for weapon proficiency with weapon mastery. A low-level Rogue can know the weapon mastery property of only two kinds of weapons at any given time even if they are proficient with many more kinds of weapons than that. For example, in the OP scenario it might be possible that the PC currently knows the mastery for the short sword and for some sort of ranged weapon such as a shortbow. In such cases, when you do decide to make that extra attack with your dagger you cannot apply the Nick mastery property of the dagger at all. In that case, the other players would be correct in that the dagger attack used the Bonus Action as per the rules for the Light Property and so that PC Rogue cannot Bonus Action Disengage on that turn. They might simply not have been aware of which weapons the OP currently had mastery in, so as suggested earlier in the thread it is good in such cases to confirm that your character does indeed currently have that mastery (as the OP eventually did after the fact) and to let the other players know that you do indeed have that mastery and that therefore you are using the associated Nick mastery property in that moment.
Generally, each player must be aware of their own character's features and speak up about them when relevant, especially when those features might provide some sort of an exception to the general rules.
One of the justifications for the order things are done is Vex with a Rapier. If you hit with the Rapier Vex applies and you can roll with advantage with your dagger and add sneak attack damage to the dagger since Vex states you have advantage on your next attack. So as a Rogue order matters for your burst output. Then if you go into Monk you can do some flurry of blows as your bonus action. So at level 5 you can essential have 4 attacks in one round, at level 6 using focus points 6 attacks in one round.
While rapier and dagger enthusiasts cry every time we have to remind them, rapier is not a light weapon and so cannot benefit from innate dual wielding. Even the dual wielder feat wouldn't work for this specific sequence because you must make the Light Weapon attack first to then use the #NotATwoHandedWeapon attack later.
For all practical purposes Shortsword and Dagger are the same thing, except already good for TWF.
Hi all, bit of a newbie! At my second to last session (2nd level rogue), I tried to attack with my short sword, then my dagger, then disengage. I was told (by another player) I couldn't disengage - using my dagger was my bonus action. Since I was new I just said "okay", but reviewing my character since then, I see I have mastery in daggers, which have nick, and "nick" says the dagger attack shouldn't count as a bonus action, correct?
If I'm incorrect, could someone please explain? If I am correct, any advice on how to bring this up next session without being all "well ackshually"?
You are correct.
Next time, just say that in the 2024 rules, with the Nick Mastery Property, the dagger both attacks are part of the attack action because of my Dagger Mastery; it doesn't use my bonus action. Then you might ask them if they have any new Mastery options they might be forgetting about. (I'm guessing they are not a martial class, but just in case.)
How to add Tooltips.
It probably won't hurt to declare you're using Nick as you make the Light attack the next few times so people can keep track of the sequence of features.
There is still some confusion over exactly how Nick works, so you may want to go over it with your DM and the other players
Some people view the Nick property as shifting the Bonus Action attack to the Attack action when you make your initial attack with the Nick weapon, whereas others view it the other way around -- when you make your Bonus Action attack with a Nick weapon, it shifts that attack to the Attack action
The way you described your attack sequence used interpretation #2, but the other player may be under the assumption it's #1 (in which case, you would need to attack with the dagger first to 'activate' Nick, then use the shortsword)
In practice it usually doesn't matter that much which one is which, especially at 2nd level, but best to clarify for everyone at the table in case one of the rare circumstances when it does matter comes up
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Thank you (and everyone above!). Glad to know I'm not completely misinterpreting it! That there are two interpretations is great - I can bring it up and just ask if I was going out of preferred order.
Just a note: I haven't seen a single good justification for why it matters what order you do the Nick attack in. Both options should be fully acceptable as, either way, the Nick weapon is being used as part of the Attack action.
It is a bit of a chicken or the egg situation. You have to use a Nick weapon to qualify for the extra attack. Normally, you would have to meet a criteria in order to get the benefit. You can make the case that for consistency, the Nick weapon must be used to make the initial attack. You can also make the case that only the Light property sets up a criteria that must be met (attacking with a Light weapon) and the Nick weapon has no criteria. The only difference I can think of that it makes is the extra attack must be after the first Light weapon attack. If you are using a Vex weapon, the interpretation that the Nick weapon must be the first weapon is disadvantageous.
Nick is the only weapon mastery that does not specify attacking "with this weapon". This may have been intentional or an oversight. Either way, if the order is critical to you, discuss with your GM beforehand to avoid any surprises.
How to add Tooltips.
It’s also worth checking, if you haven’t done so already, that your DM is using the 2024 rules. Weapon Masteries are a new feature and weren’t in the original 2014 version of 5th edition.
I agree there is a debate about the order when Nick is involved, and we don't have an updated SAC yet, but the intent was explained in the next article, along with an example using two weapons: Your Guide to Weapon Mastery in the 2024 Player's Handbook.
Some related threads:
Now that I think about it, the situation where it would come up most often is the one OP might be dealing with -- shortsword has Vex, so if the character has both those masteries, the dagger Nick attack could get advantage on the same turn if it comes second. Doing them the other way around delays the advantage until the next round
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Oh, that's a good point, I hadn't even thought of that!
With a measly 1d4 I'd been resigning myself to only use it if I didn't hit with the long sword, so I could "save" the Vex for the next turn (I'm really trying to prioritize getting sneak attack). I didn't even think of swapping hands! The ability modifier is the same for both so I suppose the loss would make no difference
Realize that for a rogue, the difference between a dagger (2.5 avg dmg) and a long sword (4.5 avg dmg) is only 2 hp. Plus, most rogues have a higher Dex than Str, so the difference once you add your dex or str mods to the damage calculation is probably nil. The real key to rogues, especially as you level up is getting your Sneak attack in so that you can roll Sneak Attack Dmg. Whenever possible try to either gain advantage (Vex, Steady Aim, Hiding, …) or attack an enemy that is distracted fighting one of your allies.
One of the justifications for the order things are done is Vex with a Rapier. If you hit with the Rapier Vex applies and you can roll with advantage with your dagger and add sneak attack damage to the dagger since Vex states you have advantage on your next attack. So as a Rogue order matters for your burst output. Then if you go into Monk you can do some flurry of blows as your bonus action. So at level 5 you can essential have 4 attacks in one round, at level 6 using focus points 6 attacks in one round.
While rapier and dagger enthusiasts cry every time we have to remind them, rapier is not a light weapon and so cannot benefit from innate dual wielding. Even the dual wielder feat wouldn't work for this specific sequence because you must make the Light Weapon attack first to then use the #NotATwoHandedWeapon attack later.
Since it hadn't been brought up yet in this thread, I'll just point out that it's possible that either the OP or the players at OP's table were confusing the concepts and rules for weapon proficiency with weapon mastery. A low-level Rogue can know the weapon mastery property of only two kinds of weapons at any given time even if they are proficient with many more kinds of weapons than that. For example, in the OP scenario it might be possible that the PC currently knows the mastery for the short sword and for some sort of ranged weapon such as a shortbow. In such cases, when you do decide to make that extra attack with your dagger you cannot apply the Nick mastery property of the dagger at all. In that case, the other players would be correct in that the dagger attack used the Bonus Action as per the rules for the Light Property and so that PC Rogue cannot Bonus Action Disengage on that turn. They might simply not have been aware of which weapons the OP currently had mastery in, so as suggested earlier in the thread it is good in such cases to confirm that your character does indeed currently have that mastery (as the OP eventually did after the fact) and to let the other players know that you do indeed have that mastery and that therefore you are using the associated Nick mastery property in that moment.
Generally, each player must be aware of their own character's features and speak up about them when relevant, especially when those features might provide some sort of an exception to the general rules.
For all practical purposes Shortsword and Dagger are the same thing, except already good for TWF.
True. I'd certainly allow a shortsword reskinned as a light rapier if it was just flavor. No d8, though, as a base weapon.