I play in two groups. For two years I have used spirit guardians with our DM and thought I understood the rules explanation. I played Wednesday night and two veteran players were excited when I cast Spirit Guardians because they interpreted the rules different than I have and our mutual DM who DM's both groups. They pointed out that if an enemy does not move away from the spirit guardians they continue to take damage. If this is the case, spirit guardians is probably the best 3rd level spell there is. When I read the following I do not think they are correct: "when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it must make a Wisdom saving throw." It seems clear with the: "for the first time" wording, that it only works once. If not, then why cast 4th level guardian of faith? I am certain I am right but would love to be wrong...what do you all think?
The portion they're referring to is "starts its turn there". That applies to all designated creatures for each turn they take if they're still in the area of effect (including the initial turn) when their turn starts, regardless of what round it is, for the duration of the spell. So yes, they are going to make their saving throw and take damage accordingly each time their turn starts within range. The main difference is that Spirit Guardians' range is "self" and the effect takes place nearest you, while with Guardian of Faith you can cast it to a location within its designated range limit, and it can/will stay there even if you leave the casting range (or so it seems).
Spirit Guardians is a PbAoE spell like Arms of Hadar. Guardian of faith is more akin to something you would use to help control a choke point like Cloud of Daggers imho.
It's not "for the first time," it's "for the first time on a turn." This means that the damage can only be triggered once per turn, but it could be triggered every turn if something forced the creature to move into the area from outside it. To phrase it a different way, this means that any creature that is in the area at any point during a turn takes the damage one time, no more, no less.
Sounds like you and your DM were wrong. Spirit guardians is an area denial/damage over time spell, and a good one.
Guardian of faith is a similar type of spell, but for a very different situation. It lasts much longer, doesn't take concentration, can be placed where needed, does damage quicker, and requires fewer components. The damage limit keeps it from being great though.
My group calls Spirit Guardians the "Mobile Chipper Shredder." It's an amazing spell.
I've seen it used to devastating effect in my group as well. The fact that it's selective about who takes damage is what makes it so strong. Of course, it does paint a huge target on the cleric, but since we were playing Curse of Strahd, the pros usually outweighed the cons.
This is a pretty awesome spell, and I have one point of clarification on the 1/2 speed. Is there no save vs the slowing effect? Seems that is how the spell is written, just wanting to be clear.
So yeah, it can hit people multiple turns in a row. Otherwise why would you bother concentrating to maintain it?
It also means that even if the enemy does move out of the radius, you can still make them take damage from it on their next turn by chasing them down. So long as they're back in the radius (which is centred on you) by the time their turn rolls around, they get smacked again.
Only way it could be better is if they took damage on your turn, when they entered the area. Then you could have the spell up and just run laps around the room hitting everyone with it.
But no, 'when they enter on their turn' (they come to you) and 'when they start their turn in the area' (because they couldn't get away from you)
This is a pretty awesome spell, and I have one point of clarification on the 1/2 speed. Is there no save vs the slowing effect? Seems that is how the spell is written, just wanting to be clear.
Evan
No, there is no save for the slowing effect. Anything hostile in the spell area has its speed halved.
Anything that is affected by the spell is slowed, not just anything hostile. Your statement will functionally be correct under most circumstances, but could be incorrect if friendlies showed up after the spell was cast and you weren't expecting them to designate them as unaffected (assuming that the DM enforces a literal interpretation of the spell and writes down everyone you identify). Also, if an ally is not included for whatever reason, they would also be affected.
Again, typically semantics, but it can sometimes be an important distinction.
Something that popped up in my game last session, the cleric cast this spell while inside a fog cloud. Since he has to see the people he is making immune to it at the time of casting, he had to drop the spell as he approached his allies a couple rounds later.
Only way it could be better is if they took damage on your turn, when they entered the area. Then you could have the spell up and just run laps around the room hitting everyone with it.
Had a DM that made that ruling once. Wound up with a cleric with spirit guardians up riding on the druid (who was a dire wolf at the time). The druid could dash and move 100ft per turn, just mowing through everything. There were a LOT of dead baddies laying around after that.
Only way it could be better is if they took damage on your turn, when they entered the area. Then you could have the spell up and just run laps around the room hitting everyone with it.
Had a DM that made that ruling once. Wound up with a cleric with spirit guardians up riding on the druid (who was a dire wolf at the time). The druid could dash and move 100ft per turn, just mowing through everything. There were a LOT of dead baddies laying around after that.
Depending on how you rule (mainly in regards to the term "enter"), that's a perfectly reasonable way to use the spell. The spell says "when a creature enters the area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there." The Cleric and the Druids turns are both a turn, and the enemy is being forced to enter the spells area on said turn.
Always been some contention on spells like this because of that. Per the wording it does seem like you should be able to move the AoE and - since things will be "entering" it - do damage.
As DMs, rule however you see fit. I will add, however, that the Sage Advice ruling says no:
Does moonbeam deal damage when you cast it? What about when its effect moves onto a creature?
The answer to both questions is no. Here’s some elaboration on that answer.
Reading the description of any of those spells, you might wonder whether a creature is considered to be entering the spell’s area of effect if the area is created on the creature’s space. And if the area of effect can be moved — as the beam of moonbeam can — does moving it into a creature’s space count as the creature entering the area? Our design intent for such spells is this: a creature enters the area of effect when the creature passes into it. Creating the area of effect on the creature or moving it onto the creature doesn’t count. If the creature is still in the area at the start of its turn, it is subjected to the area’s effect.
Entering such an area of effect needn’t be voluntary, unless a spell says otherwise. You can, therefore, hurl a creature into the area with a spell like thunderwave. We consider that clever play, not an imbalance, so hurl away! Keep in mind, however, that a creature is subjected to such an area of effect only the first time it enters the area on a turn. You can’t move a creature in and out of it to damage it over and over again on the same turn.
"When you cast this spell, you can designate any number of creatures you can see to be unaffected by it. An affected creature's speed is halved in the area, and when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 3d8 radiant damage (if you are good or neutral) or 3d8 necrotic damage (if you are evil). On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage."
To awnser the question creatures other that jokes you picked to be immune to it take damage when A they start there turn standing inside of the affected area or B when they move into it, while it does say "for the first time" ot refers to the first time on there turn, if a creature moves out of it then on a later turn moves back into it they make the save and take damage again, yes it is a powerful spell for supporting your frontline by standing 5 feet behind your frontline it keeps you safe from attack while forcing everything by your frontline to take damage on every one of its turns and if they want to brake your concentration they will have to move away from your frontline and risks attacks ld opportunity amd because there movement is cut in half they they will use up most or all of there movement
Moving on to guardian of faith it is a much weaker spell as it can only inflict 10-20 damage at a time and a max over all of 60 (so 10 six times or 20 three times) and then it's gone, on top of that ot does not move amd only attacks things that come into a 10 foot radius so creatures can easily avoid it in most situations, spirit guardians deals a 3d8 and level 3 so on advrage 12, miminum 3 max of 24, using a level 4 slot buffs that damage to average 16, min of 4 max of 32 not to mention it has no damage cap, let's say 3 undead walk into guardian of faith and take the full 20 POOF it's gone, but spirit guardians keeps going even after dealing more than 60 damage.
So in conclusion Spirit guardians > Guardian of faith
I play in two groups. For two years I have used spirit guardians with our DM and thought I understood the rules explanation. I played Wednesday night and two veteran players were excited when I cast Spirit Guardians because they interpreted the rules different than I have and our mutual DM who DM's both groups. They pointed out that if an enemy does not move away from the spirit guardians they continue to take damage. If this is the case, spirit guardians is probably the best 3rd level spell there is. When I read the following I do not think they are correct: "when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it must make a Wisdom saving throw." It seems clear with the: "for the first time" wording, that it only works once. If not, then why cast 4th level guardian of faith? I am certain I am right but would love to be wrong...what do you all think?
The portion they're referring to is "starts its turn there". That applies to all designated creatures for each turn they take if they're still in the area of effect (including the initial turn) when their turn starts, regardless of what round it is, for the duration of the spell. So yes, they are going to make their saving throw and take damage accordingly each time their turn starts within range. The main difference is that Spirit Guardians' range is "self" and the effect takes place nearest you, while with Guardian of Faith you can cast it to a location within its designated range limit, and it can/will stay there even if you leave the casting range (or so it seems).
Spirit Guardians is a PbAoE spell like Arms of Hadar. Guardian of faith is more akin to something you would use to help control a choke point like Cloud of Daggers imho.
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It's not "for the first time," it's "for the first time on a turn." This means that the damage can only be triggered once per turn, but it could be triggered every turn if something forced the creature to move into the area from outside it. To phrase it a different way, this means that any creature that is in the area at any point during a turn takes the damage one time, no more, no less.
To add on to what everyone else is saying, the way the spell is supposed to read is:
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Guardian of faith is better in that:
1) It deals a bit more damage
2) Does not require concentration
3) Lasts 8 hours rather than 10 minutes
4) Can be put at a point in space, instead of centered on you.
Other than that they're pretty similar - a damage-each-turn type spell.
Sounds like you and your DM were wrong. Spirit guardians is an area denial/damage over time spell, and a good one.
Guardian of faith is a similar type of spell, but for a very different situation. It lasts much longer, doesn't take concentration, can be placed where needed, does damage quicker, and requires fewer components. The damage limit keeps it from being great though.
Oof, it hurts me a little bit that you haven't been fully utilizing this spell for so long.
My group calls Spirit Guardians the "Mobile Chipper Shredder." It's an amazing spell.
Yeah, our cleric went through an entire room of goblins like a lawnmower in the early encounters in Dungeon of the Mad Mage with that spell.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I've seen it used to devastating effect in my group as well. The fact that it's selective about who takes damage is what makes it so strong. Of course, it does paint a huge target on the cleric, but since we were playing Curse of Strahd, the pros usually outweighed the cons.
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This is a pretty awesome spell, and I have one point of clarification on the 1/2 speed. Is there no save vs the slowing effect? Seems that is how the spell is written, just wanting to be clear.
Evan
>Duration 10 minutes (C)
So yeah, it can hit people multiple turns in a row. Otherwise why would you bother concentrating to maintain it?
It also means that even if the enemy does move out of the radius, you can still make them take damage from it on their next turn by chasing them down. So long as they're back in the radius (which is centred on you) by the time their turn rolls around, they get smacked again.
Only way it could be better is if they took damage on your turn, when they entered the area. Then you could have the spell up and just run laps around the room hitting everyone with it.
But no, 'when they enter on their turn' (they come to you) and 'when they start their turn in the area' (because they couldn't get away from you)
No, there is no save for the slowing effect. Anything hostile in the spell area has its speed halved.
Anything that is affected by the spell is slowed, not just anything hostile. Your statement will functionally be correct under most circumstances, but could be incorrect if friendlies showed up after the spell was cast and you weren't expecting them to designate them as unaffected (assuming that the DM enforces a literal interpretation of the spell and writes down everyone you identify). Also, if an ally is not included for whatever reason, they would also be affected.
Again, typically semantics, but it can sometimes be an important distinction.
Something that popped up in my game last session, the cleric cast this spell while inside a fog cloud. Since he has to see the people he is making immune to it at the time of casting, he had to drop the spell as he approached his allies a couple rounds later.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Had a DM that made that ruling once. Wound up with a cleric with spirit guardians up riding on the druid (who was a dire wolf at the time). The druid could dash and move 100ft per turn, just mowing through everything. There were a LOT of dead baddies laying around after that.
Depending on how you rule (mainly in regards to the term "enter"), that's a perfectly reasonable way to use the spell. The spell says "when a creature enters the area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there."
The Cleric and the Druids turns are both a turn, and the enemy is being forced to enter the spells area on said turn.
Always been some contention on spells like this because of that. Per the wording it does seem like you should be able to move the AoE and - since things will be "entering" it - do damage.
As DMs, rule however you see fit. I will add, however, that the Sage Advice ruling says no:
Does moonbeam deal damage when you cast it? What about when its effect moves onto a creature?
The answer to both questions is no. Here’s some elaboration on that answer.
Reading the description of any of those spells, you might wonder whether a creature is considered to be entering the spell’s area of effect if the area is created on the creature’s space. And if the area of effect can be moved — as the beam of moonbeam can — does moving it into a creature’s space count as the creature entering the area? Our design intent for such spells is this: a creature enters the area of effect when the creature passes into it. Creating the area of effect on the creature or moving it onto the creature doesn’t count. If the creature is still in the area at the start of its turn, it is subjected to the area’s effect.
Entering such an area of effect needn’t be voluntary, unless a spell says otherwise. You can, therefore, hurl a creature into the area with a spell like thunderwave. We consider that clever play, not an imbalance, so hurl away! Keep in mind, however, that a creature is subjected to such an area of effect only the first time it enters the area on a turn. You can’t move a creature in and out of it to damage it over and over again on the same turn.
Text from spell reads as follows:
"When you cast this spell, you can designate any number of creatures you can see to be unaffected by it. An affected creature's speed is halved in the area, and when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 3d8 radiant damage (if you are good or neutral) or 3d8 necrotic damage (if you are evil). On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage."
To awnser the question creatures other that jokes you picked to be immune to it take damage when A they start there turn standing inside of the affected area or B when they move into it, while it does say "for the first time" ot refers to the first time on there turn, if a creature moves out of it then on a later turn moves back into it they make the save and take damage again, yes it is a powerful spell for supporting your frontline by standing 5 feet behind your frontline it keeps you safe from attack while forcing everything by your frontline to take damage on every one of its turns and if they want to brake your concentration they will have to move away from your frontline and risks attacks ld opportunity amd because there movement is cut in half they they will use up most or all of there movement
Moving on to guardian of faith it is a much weaker spell as it can only inflict 10-20 damage at a time and a max over all of 60 (so 10 six times or 20 three times) and then it's gone, on top of that ot does not move amd only attacks things that come into a 10 foot radius so creatures can easily avoid it in most situations, spirit guardians deals a 3d8 and level 3 so on advrage 12, miminum 3 max of 24, using a level 4 slot buffs that damage to average 16, min of 4 max of 32 not to mention it has no damage cap, let's say 3 undead walk into guardian of faith and take the full 20 POOF it's gone, but spirit guardians keeps going even after dealing more than 60 damage.
So in conclusion Spirit guardians > Guardian of faith
As a DM I have a player that is cleaning up with Spirit Guardians.
Any tips for how I can combat the spell or ways to have my enemies attack to limit his impact on fights?
Ranged attacks to break the cleric's concentration.
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