Maybe I should submit a compromise that an arcane focus can “channel” any spell from the “official list of all arcane spells.” But for the rest of spells, we have to use the plain old spell casting rules.
This is very clearly an official answer about the use of spellcasting foci in general, meant to apply to the use of foci by arcane casters, divine casters, druids, and bards.
What’s the amount of interaction needed to use a spellcasting focus? Does it have to be included in the somatic component?
If a spell has a material component, you need to handle that component when you cast the spell. The same rule applies if you’re using a spellcasting focus as the material component.
If a spell has a somatic component, you can use the hand that performs the somatic component to also handle the material component. For example, a wizard who uses an orb as a spellcasting focus could hold a quarterstaff in one hand and the orb in the other, and he could cast lightning bolt by using the orb as the spell’s material component and the orb hand to perform the spell’s somatic component.
Another example: a cleric’s holy symbol is emblazoned on her shield. She likes to wade into melee combat with a mace in one hand and a shield in the other. She uses the holy symbol as her spellcasting focus, so she needs to have the shield in hand when she casts a cleric spell that has a material component. If the spell, such as aid, also has a somatic component, she can perform that component with the shield hand and keep holding the mace in the other.
If the same cleric casts cure wounds, she needs to put the mace or the shield away, because that spell doesn’t have a material component but does have a somatic component. She’s going to need a free hand to make the spell’s gestures. If she had the War Caster feat, she could ignore this restriction.
Yeah totally agree. I mean, that example clearly outlines a unique case for a shield with a holy symbol on it. But otherwise, yeah, that applies to most spellcasting focus needs. And it spells out pretty clearly that you can use the same hand for S components as your focus occupies.
I feel like y'all are having trouble distinguishing between a shield/mace wielder trying to cast spells vs someone channeling their arcane spells through a wand. If you cannot see the distinction and why it is there, that's on you. It even links to a FEAT that helps a mace/shield wielder overcome that intentional power balance limitation.
.............
Wait hold up. Do you guys think an Artillerist artificer CANNOT use his level 5 ability unless those spells specifically have material components????:
You can use your arcane firearm as a spellcasting focus for your artificer spells. When you cast an artificer spell through the firearm, roll a d8, and you gain bonus to one of the spell's damage rolls equal to the number rolled.
Because that's an insane ruling. Of course he can channel any of his spells through it, M component or not.
So can a wizard. I mean. You might ask yourself WHY would he? The only benefit DIRECTLY specified is that he doesn't need to provide M components. But nothing, at ALL, says he CANNOT do it. And the Arcane Focus itself says he CAN.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Chapter 5 of the Player's Handbook, under "Other Adventuring Gear"
Arcane Focus. An arcane focus is a special item — an orb, a crystal, a rod, a specially constructed staff, a wand-like length of wood, or some similar item — designed to channel the power of arcane spells. A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10.
Druidic Focus. A druidic focus might be a sprig of mistletoe or holly, a wand or scepter made of yew or another special wood, a staff drawn whole out of a living tree, or a totem object incorporating feathers, fur, bones, and teeth from sacred animals. A druid can use such an object as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10.
Holy Symbol. A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. It might be an amulet depicting a symbol representing a deity, the same symbol carefully engraved or inlaid as an emblem on a shield, or a tiny box holding a fragment of a sacred relic. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.
Musical Instrument. Several of the most common types of musical instruments are shown on the table as examples. If you have proficiency with a given musical instrument, you can add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to play music with the instrument. A bard can use a musical instrument as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10. Each type of musical instrument requires a separate proficiency.
Chapter 10 of the Player's Handbook, "Casting a Spell"
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Yes, so you use the Arcane Focus as a Spellcasting Focus, per the text of the object, and you see the rules for Spellcasting when doing so. Now you no longer need to provide any material components that spell may have had, and somatic components can be provided by the same hand.
Not needing the benefit of the first perk doesn't take away the benefit of the second perk. It isn't AT ALL worded in such a way as to require that there be a M component to use it as a focus. The Arcane focus isn't worded that way, the Material Component rules aren't worded that way. Nothing is.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Have you read artificer? Their spell casting feature explicitly says they must use a focus. This is another argument from ignorance.
But your whole argument is that a focus cannot be used unless the spell has M requirements...
The existence of Artificer disputes that interpretation.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I feel like exploring the Artificer some more might be another avenue to clarity for you guys.
You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus – specifically tinker’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool – in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature.
As our friend WolfOfTheBees pointed out, all Artificers need to use a Spellcasting focus to cast their spell. If the argument is true that a spellcasting focus can ONLY be used with spells that have material components, then we need to amend the Artificer spell list a bit, don't we? Since he is required to use a focus, but cannot use a focus for non-M spells...it means he just CANNOT cast non-M spells.
He can no longer cast
Acid Splash
Create Bonfire
Firebolt
Frostbite
Guidance
Mage Hand
Magic Stone
Poison Spray
Prestidigitation
Ray of Frost
Shocking Grasp
Spare the Dying
Thunderclap
And that's just cantrips so far.... he can only choose between
Dancing Lights
Light
Mending
Message
Resistance
Thorn Whip
Man, I didn't expect to start this conversation off with a huge nerf to the Artificer, but I guess if you guys insist that you can't use a focus unless there is a M component. Here we are then. It get's even worst for the higher level spells, but I ain't got time to make those lists, because OBVIOUSLY your ruling is wrong.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I really wish you would stop assuming everyone in this forum are “guys.” That’s the second instanced of gender assumption you have done in this conversation and I find it offensive. If you want to keep arguing your point against at least half a dozen people who are all trying to educate you as to your mistake, be my guest. But please stop being insensitive to more than half the planet while you’re doing it.
Besides misunderstanding exceptions to an alarming degree...
Well, what to the fact that an arcane focus can only be used on “arcane spells”? You can’t use it on any spell that isn’t listed as an arcane spell from that list. Oh wait, that isn’t a thing.
I really wish you would stop assuming everyone in this forum are “guys.” That’s the second instanced of gender assumption you have done in this conversation and I find it offensive. If you want to keep arguing your point against at least half a dozen people who are all trying to educate you as to your mistake, be my guest. But please stop being insensitive to more than half the planet while you’re doing it.
1. Maybe I was only talking to the males out there? Or maybe that's a normal you-plural stand-in since English doesn't have a default pronoun for that? How would you know? What is clear is that I never claimed everyone here is a guy. That's such a weird interpretation, almost deliberately, or hyperbolically, misunderstanding what I said.
2. If you want to take it to an insulting place, why expect cordiality in return? Gender? Ha! You didn't even get my species right. Clearly I'm more of a troglodyte.
3. Ain't none of this on topic. On-topic: You can cast arcane spells through an arcane focus, as a spellcasting focus, even if the spell doesn't have an M component. I've made a case for it that none of y'all have made any real effort to address. Just belligerent rebuttals that aren't based in any rules texts whatsoever.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Besides misunderstanding exceptions to an alarming degree...
Well, what to the fact that an arcane focus can only be used on “arcane spells”? You can’t use it on any spell that isn’t listed as an arcane spell from that list. Oh wait, that isn’t a thing.
I have literally no idea what you're even saying anymore. Do you not know what an arcane spell is?
Also, nothing in the artificer makes the exception for the ruling you claim is default.
If you are correct and "You cannot use a spellcasting focus to cast a non-M spell" that means an artificer similarly cannot use a spellcasting focus to cast a non-M spell. And since an artificer MUST use spellcasting focus, he simply cannot cast non-M spell if your interpretation is true.
Clearly it isn't true.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'm curious if anyone will get through. That's the only reason I didn't block earlier, but I'm with you on not feeding the troll any more.
Apparently not.
You know the old adage “Can’t teach an old troll RAW.”
I'm a troll for trying to stay on topic and not throwing out insults like you? Aight then.
Well, I'm perfectly comfortable being the only voice of reason here, if need be. I'm not swayed by ad hominem, nor appeals to the majority. If you would like to try your hand at a reasonable argument, I'm all ears.
Absent that, I can only conclude that you now agree with me, but are saving face by remaining silent instead of now voicing that agreement.
I'm glad we could come to see things eye to eye, and that artificers are indeed able to cast spells selected from their full spell list, including non-M spells, because of the capability of using a spellcasting focus to cast non-M spells, shared with arcane spellcasters, at a minimum.
The funny part, to me, is that you are saying you can't teach me RAW, but I'm the one of the few people quoting the relevant rules texts in this conversation. How you think you can teach someone RAW if you don't even have the actual text? Rules. As. Written. You can't just pull stuff out of nowhere and call that RAW. It needs quotes. You got some quotes? You got some logical argument? C'mon. I know you're better than ad hominems. Yeah?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Friendly reminder that no one has quoted any rules that suggest you cannot cast a non-M spell with a spellcasting focus. That rules text seems conspicuously absent from this thread that has so many people supporting that notion. I'd quote it... if I could find it anywhere. But try as I might, just can't find it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The rules that tell you that you need a free hand for S spells have been quoted (innumerable times over these 12 pages), but you are just ignoring or not understanding them, along with every argument that you can't answer. That is why we think you are trolling: because of your selective understanding and selective argument response. Other than parroting one sentence in the rulebook, you don't seem to have any grasp on how the rules of 5e fit together. Because of that, I think I am done.
Friendly reminder that no one has quoted any rules that suggest you cannot cast a non-M spell with a spellcasting focus.
There are also no rules that say you can't cast a non-M spell with a red beanie. What's the point?
Don't overthink component rules. The general rule is: If the spell has M component then you need a free hand. If the spell has S component then you need a free hand. If the spell has both M and S components then you only need one free hand, not two.
If you have a spell focus in one hand and something else in the other hand then you don't have a hand free (unless you are a thri'keen :-). This means you can't cast a spell with S components but no M components (for example, acid splash).
If you have a spell focus in one hand and your other hand is free, then you can cast spells. The focus does nothing for a non-M & S spell.
Artificers have an extra restriction - they require a spell focus for every spell, regardless of what components the spell has. This doesn't change anything above.
Absent that, I can only conclude that you now agree with me, but are saving face by remaining silent instead of now voicing that agreement.
I'm glad we could come to see things eye to eye, and that artificers are indeed able to cast spells selected from their full spell list, including non-M spells, because of the capability of using a spellcasting focus to cast non-M spells, shared with arcane spellcasters, at a minimum.
Really? You're going to use the old "I take your silence as agreement" after many of us said that we were done? Nice. Between that and seeing how you've conducted yourself through a few other posts, I don't think that I'll be interacting with you any more after this thread. Attributing it to saving face? Really? Sounds like a poor attempt to save face yourself.
Since I've already given you that much of a snack, here's the relevant parts of the spellcasting rules for Artificer that you were fishing for. You'll still need access to the book to get the rest or fish from others.
Artificer
Spellcasting
You have studied the workings of magic and how to channel it through objects. As a result, you have gained the ability to cast spells. To observers, you don’t appear to be casting spells in a conventional way; you look as if you’re producing wonders using mundane items or outlandish inventions.
Tools Required
You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus — specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool — in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature. You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way. See chapter 5, “Equipment,” in the Player’s Handbook for descriptions of these tools.
Warlock
Pact Magic
Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells. See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting and chapter 11 for the warlock spell list.
Cantrips
You know two cantrips of your choice from the warlock spell list. You learn additional warlock cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Warlock table.
Spell Slots
The Warlock table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your warlock spells of 1st through 5th level. The table also shows what the level of those slots is; all of your spell slots are the same level. To cast one of your warlock spells of 1st level or higher, you must expend a spell slot. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a short or long rest.
For example, when you are 5th level, you have two 3rd-level spell slots. To cast the 1st-level spell witch bolt, you must spend one of those slots, and you cast it as a 3rd-level spell.
Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher
At 1st level, you know two 1st-level spells of your choice from the warlock spell list.
The Spells Known column of the Warlock table shows when you learn more warlock spells of your choice of 1st level and higher. A spell you choose must be of a level no higher than what’s shown in the table’s Slot Level column for your level. When you reach 6th level, for example, you learn a new warlock spell, which can be 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level.
Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the warlock spells you know and replace it with another spell from the warlock spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Spellcasting Ability
Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your warlock spells, so you use your Charisma whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Charisma modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a warlock spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.
Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier
Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier
Spellcasting Focus
You can use an arcane focus (see chapter 5, “Equipment”) as a spellcasting focus for your warlock spells.
Wizard
Spellcasting
As a student of arcane magic, you have a spellbook containing spells that show the first glimmerings of your true power. See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting and chapter 11 for the wizard spell list.
Cantrips
At 1st level, you know three cantrips of your choice from the wizard spell list. You learn additional wizard cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Wizard table.
Spellbook
At 1st level, you have a spellbook containing six 1st-level wizard spells of your choice. Your spellbook is the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind.
Preparing and Casting Spells
The Wizard table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your wizard spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.
You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
For example, if you’re a 3rd-level wizard, you have four 1st-level and two 2nd-level spell slots. With an Intelligence of 16, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination, chosen from your spellbook. If you prepare the 1st-level spell magic missile, you can cast it using a 1st-level or a 2nd-level slot. Casting the spell doesn’t remove it from your list of prepared spells.
You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of wizard spells requires time spent studying your spellbook and memorizing the incantations and gestures you must make to cast the spell: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list.
Spellcasting Ability
Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for your wizard spells, since you learn your spells through dedicated study and memorization. You use your Intelligence whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a wizard spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.
Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
Ritual Casting
You can cast a wizard spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and you have the spell in your spellbook. You don’t need to have the spell prepared.
Spellcasting Focus
You can use an arcane focus (see chapter 5, “Equipment”) as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells.
Sorcerer
Spellcasting
An event in your past, or in the life of a parent or ancestor, left an indelible mark on you, infusing you with arcane magic. This font of magic, whatever its origin, fuels your spells. See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting and chapter 11 for the sorcerer spell list.
Cantrips
At 1st level, you know four cantrips of your choice from the sorcerer spell list. You learn additional sorcerer cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Sorcerer table.
Spell Slots
The Sorcerer table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your sorcerer spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these sorcerer spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.
For example, if you know the 1st-level spell burning hands and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast burning hands using either slot.
Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher
You know two 1st-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer spell list.
The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 3rd level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.
Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Spellcasting Ability
Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your sorcerer spells, since the power of your magic relies on your ability to project your will into the world. You use your Charisma whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Charisma modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a sorcerer spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.
Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier
Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier
Spellcasting Focus
You can use an arcane focus (see chapter 5, “Equipment”) as a spellcasting focus for your sorcerer spells.
Yeah, I don't see where you think that because an Artificer is required to have a spellcasting focus for all of their spells that all spell casters require (or even can use) a spellcasting focus for all of their spells. You've heard of specific beats general, right? Of course, because that's what you're trying to base your argument around. You'll also notice that Artificers require "a spellcasting focus — specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool". You'll notice that it doesn't say Arcane Focus there. It's different than an Arcane Focus, which of course means that it can't work exactly the same as an Arcane Focus per your own argument regarding Holy Symbols. Thieves' tools or some kind of artisan's tools (Tools Heading) are even in the same heading as Arcane Focus (Other Adventuring Gear), yet they someone work more closely than a Holy Symbol (Other Adventuring Gear) which is in the same heading? Using your own argument, where are the rules that state that the Arcane Focus (around since 2014 in 5th edition) behaves exactly like artisan's tools, let alone like artisan's tools work for the Artificer (2019)?
Well, I'm perfectly comfortable being the only voice of reason here, if need be. I'm not swayed by ad hominem, nor appeals to the majority. If you would like to try your hand at a reasonable argument, I'm all ears.
The funny part, to me, is that you are saying you can't teach me RAW, but I'm the one of the few people quoting the relevant rules texts in this conversation. How you think you can teach someone RAW if you don't even have the actual text? Rules. As. Written. You can't just pull stuff out of nowhere and call that RAW. It needs quotes. You got some quotes? You got some logical argument? C'mon. I know you're better than ad hominems. Yeah?
If you're not going to be swayed by others, there is really no more reason to interact with you. The times where our paths have crossed, I have not been convinced by your arguments, which have followed the same pattern shown here. It's one thing to insist that your point of view is correct and then bow out of the conversation. It's another to insist to the point that you are arguing with yourself just to get in the last word.
As for RAW, we've been quoting RAW as well. When that didn't work, we went to the Sage Advice Compendium to show evidence that even RAI is in agreement with our side of the argument. You consistently discounted every argument, because it did not agree with your view point. We tried to use analogies to show you why you're thinking was off, but you either discounted them as not being relevant, didn't understand them, or both. As I've said before in other threads, we are talking past each other. That is not productive and I will not continue to do so. I'm sure that you'll have a response for this, so I'll wait until tomorrow before I block you. That way you've got a reasonable chance to at least dissuade me from that action. I'm not going to block you as some kind of punishment for you, I'm sure that you couldn't care less that it will happen. I'm simply doing it because I'm tired of having pointless discussions with you. My main objective on these forums is to present a case for others to read and compare, then to make their own judgements based on all of the evidence provided. I've done that with this thread. I rest my case. Others may continue as long as they wish. Farewell.
Maybe I should submit a compromise that an arcane focus can “channel” any spell from the “official list of all arcane spells.” But for the rest of spells, we have to use the plain old spell casting rules.
I'm curious if anyone will get through. That's the only reason I didn't block earlier, but I'm with you on not feeding the troll any more.
Yeah totally agree. I mean, that example clearly outlines a unique case for a shield with a holy symbol on it. But otherwise, yeah, that applies to most spellcasting focus needs. And it spells out pretty clearly that you can use the same hand for S components as your focus occupies.
I feel like y'all are having trouble distinguishing between a shield/mace wielder trying to cast spells vs someone channeling their arcane spells through a wand. If you cannot see the distinction and why it is there, that's on you. It even links to a FEAT that helps a mace/shield wielder overcome that intentional power balance limitation.
.............
Wait hold up. Do you guys think an Artillerist artificer CANNOT use his level 5 ability unless those spells specifically have material components????:
Because that's an insane ruling. Of course he can channel any of his spells through it, M component or not.
So can a wizard. I mean. You might ask yourself WHY would he? The only benefit DIRECTLY specified is that he doesn't need to provide M components. But nothing, at ALL, says he CANNOT do it. And the Arcane Focus itself says he CAN.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Yes, so you use the Arcane Focus as a Spellcasting Focus, per the text of the object, and you see the rules for Spellcasting when doing so. Now you no longer need to provide any material components that spell may have had, and somatic components can be provided by the same hand.
Not needing the benefit of the first perk doesn't take away the benefit of the second perk. It isn't AT ALL worded in such a way as to require that there be a M component to use it as a focus. The Arcane focus isn't worded that way, the Material Component rules aren't worded that way. Nothing is.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Have you read artificer? Their spell casting feature explicitly says they must use a focus. This is another argument from ignorance.
But your whole argument is that a focus cannot be used unless the spell has M requirements...
The existence of Artificer disputes that interpretation.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I feel like exploring the Artificer some more might be another avenue to clarity for you guys.
As our friend WolfOfTheBees pointed out, all Artificers need to use a Spellcasting focus to cast their spell. If the argument is true that a spellcasting focus can ONLY be used with spells that have material components, then we need to amend the Artificer spell list a bit, don't we? Since he is required to use a focus, but cannot use a focus for non-M spells...it means he just CANNOT cast non-M spells.
He can no longer cast
And that's just cantrips so far.... he can only choose between
Man, I didn't expect to start this conversation off with a huge nerf to the Artificer, but I guess if you guys insist that you can't use a focus unless there is a M component. Here we are then. It get's even worst for the higher level spells, but I ain't got time to make those lists, because OBVIOUSLY your ruling is wrong.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I really wish you would stop assuming everyone in this forum are “guys.” That’s the second instanced of gender assumption you have done in this conversation and I find it offensive. If you want to keep arguing your point against at least half a dozen people who are all trying to educate you as to your mistake, be my guest. But please stop being insensitive to more than half the planet while you’re doing it.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Besides misunderstanding exceptions to an alarming degree...
Well, what to the fact that an arcane focus can only be used on “arcane spells”? You can’t use it on any spell that isn’t listed as an arcane spell from that list. Oh wait, that isn’t a thing.
1. Maybe I was only talking to the males out there? Or maybe that's a normal you-plural stand-in since English doesn't have a default pronoun for that? How would you know? What is clear is that I never claimed everyone here is a guy. That's such a weird interpretation, almost deliberately, or hyperbolically, misunderstanding what I said.
2. If you want to take it to an insulting place, why expect cordiality in return? Gender? Ha! You didn't even get my species right. Clearly I'm more of a troglodyte.
3. Ain't none of this on topic. On-topic: You can cast arcane spells through an arcane focus, as a spellcasting focus, even if the spell doesn't have an M component. I've made a case for it that none of y'all have made any real effort to address. Just belligerent rebuttals that aren't based in any rules texts whatsoever.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Apparently not.
I have literally no idea what you're even saying anymore. Do you not know what an arcane spell is?
Also, nothing in the artificer makes the exception for the ruling you claim is default.
If you are correct and "You cannot use a spellcasting focus to cast a non-M spell" that means an artificer similarly cannot use a spellcasting focus to cast a non-M spell. And since an artificer MUST use spellcasting focus, he simply cannot cast non-M spell if your interpretation is true.
Clearly it isn't true.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You know the old adage “Can’t teach an old troll RAW.”
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I'm a troll for trying to stay on topic and not throwing out insults like you? Aight then.
Well, I'm perfectly comfortable being the only voice of reason here, if need be. I'm not swayed by ad hominem, nor appeals to the majority. If you would like to try your hand at a reasonable argument, I'm all ears.
Absent that, I can only conclude that you now agree with me, but are saving face by remaining silent instead of now voicing that agreement.
I'm glad we could come to see things eye to eye, and that artificers are indeed able to cast spells selected from their full spell list, including non-M spells, because of the capability of using a spellcasting focus to cast non-M spells, shared with arcane spellcasters, at a minimum.
The funny part, to me, is that you are saying you can't teach me RAW, but I'm the one of the few people quoting the relevant rules texts in this conversation. How you think you can teach someone RAW if you don't even have the actual text? Rules. As. Written. You can't just pull stuff out of nowhere and call that RAW. It needs quotes. You got some quotes? You got some logical argument? C'mon. I know you're better than ad hominems. Yeah?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Friendly reminder that no one has quoted any rules that suggest you cannot cast a non-M spell with a spellcasting focus. That rules text seems conspicuously absent from this thread that has so many people supporting that notion. I'd quote it... if I could find it anywhere. But try as I might, just can't find it.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The rules that tell you that you need a free hand for S spells have been quoted (innumerable times over these 12 pages), but you are just ignoring or not understanding them, along with every argument that you can't answer. That is why we think you are trolling: because of your selective understanding and selective argument response. Other than parroting one sentence in the rulebook, you don't seem to have any grasp on how the rules of 5e fit together. Because of that, I think I am done.
There are also no rules that say you can't cast a non-M spell with a red beanie. What's the point?
Don't overthink component rules. The general rule is: If the spell has M component then you need a free hand. If the spell has S component then you need a free hand. If the spell has both M and S components then you only need one free hand, not two.
If you have a spell focus in one hand and something else in the other hand then you don't have a hand free (unless you are a thri'keen :-). This means you can't cast a spell with S components but no M components (for example, acid splash).
If you have a spell focus in one hand and your other hand is free, then you can cast spells. The focus does nothing for a non-M & S spell.
Artificers have an extra restriction - they require a spell focus for every spell, regardless of what components the spell has. This doesn't change anything above.
I dislike acknowledging the calling out of trolls, but I will say this seems an easy answer being lost on a hard head.
Really? You're going to use the old "I take your silence as agreement" after many of us said that we were done? Nice. Between that and seeing how you've conducted yourself through a few other posts, I don't think that I'll be interacting with you any more after this thread. Attributing it to saving face? Really? Sounds like a poor attempt to save face yourself.
Since I've already given you that much of a snack, here's the relevant parts of the spellcasting rules for Artificer that you were fishing for. You'll still need access to the book to get the rest or fish from others.
Artificer
Warlock
Wizard
Sorcerer
Yeah, I don't see where you think that because an Artificer is required to have a spellcasting focus for all of their spells that all spell casters require (or even can use) a spellcasting focus for all of their spells. You've heard of specific beats general, right? Of course, because that's what you're trying to base your argument around. You'll also notice that Artificers require "a spellcasting focus — specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool". You'll notice that it doesn't say Arcane Focus there. It's different than an Arcane Focus, which of course means that it can't work exactly the same as an Arcane Focus per your own argument regarding Holy Symbols. Thieves' tools or some kind of artisan's tools (Tools Heading) are even in the same heading as Arcane Focus (Other Adventuring Gear), yet they someone work more closely than a Holy Symbol (Other Adventuring Gear) which is in the same heading? Using your own argument, where are the rules that state that the Arcane Focus (around since 2014 in 5th edition) behaves exactly like artisan's tools, let alone like artisan's tools work for the Artificer (2019)?
If you're not going to be swayed by others, there is really no more reason to interact with you. The times where our paths have crossed, I have not been convinced by your arguments, which have followed the same pattern shown here. It's one thing to insist that your point of view is correct and then bow out of the conversation. It's another to insist to the point that you are arguing with yourself just to get in the last word.
As for RAW, we've been quoting RAW as well. When that didn't work, we went to the Sage Advice Compendium to show evidence that even RAI is in agreement with our side of the argument. You consistently discounted every argument, because it did not agree with your view point. We tried to use analogies to show you why you're thinking was off, but you either discounted them as not being relevant, didn't understand them, or both. As I've said before in other threads, we are talking past each other. That is not productive and I will not continue to do so. I'm sure that you'll have a response for this, so I'll wait until tomorrow before I block you. That way you've got a reasonable chance to at least dissuade me from that action. I'm not going to block you as some kind of punishment for you, I'm sure that you couldn't care less that it will happen. I'm simply doing it because I'm tired of having pointless discussions with you. My main objective on these forums is to present a case for others to read and compare, then to make their own judgements based on all of the evidence provided. I've done that with this thread. I rest my case. Others may continue as long as they wish. Farewell.
Shit, you got more patience than me. I blocked them hours ago. I’m honestly surprised you’re still going. Even the toddlers fell asleep by now.
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