I'm done arguing why material component rules including the use of foci only apply to spells with material component. Even though the first sentence of the rule says it will only apply to "some spells" that specify it in the component entry. Or that it says a character can only use "a spellcasting focus in place of the components specified for a spell."
This is supposedly the be-all answer to this whole thing and yet it is wrong. That bolded line is a lie.
It does say that a character CAN use it in place of a material component. It does NOT say ONLY.
That is your own invention. Fabrication.
The rule gives us permission to do so but doesn't in any way even hint that we MUST have a material component to replace in order to use a spellcasting focus with our spell. That is a whole invention of yalls. Someone round here is a illusionist cause yall been played.
Because I have already said that rule context matters. If all rules apply all the time, these are the unnessessary interactions you create which lead to incorrect conclusions.
Yeah, context matters. If an item says to reference a section of the rules, then that section is relevant when you use that item. Obviously.
So when we cast a Ray of Frost through a Wand then we do what the arcane focus rules says to do and reference the material component section.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Yalls whole case hinges on something that doesn't exist.
The item itself gives the requirements to use it.
...
Shield. A shield is made from wood or metal and is carried in one hand. Wielding a shield increases your Armor Class by 2. You can benefit from only one shield at a time.
This is an example proving you are wrong. think about it before you respond.
Ravnodaus, show us that you can argue the opposite of what you think is true. If you can make a convincing argument that you can't use a focus in any way for a spell that doesn't have a M component (outside the artificer), then I'll take you seriously. Use quotes.
Yalls whole case hinges on something that doesn't exist.
The item itself gives the requirements to use it.
...
Shield. A shield is made from wood or metal and is carried in one hand. Wielding a shield increases your Armor Class by 2. You can benefit from only one shield at a time.
This is an example proving you are wrong. think about it before you respond.
Are you trying to argue that the requirements to use an Arcane focus are NOT listed in the item's description? So you think any class can use it?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
(Still cannot read your posts. Still just guessing with my rebuttals.)
How’s this? Here is the description for a Hammer: (I’ll even put it in your yore’s so you cannot say I haven’t quoted anything.)
“This one-handed hammer with an iron head is useful for pounding pitons into a wall.”
So by your logic, since that is what the description of the item says, one could only use a Hammer to pound pitons into walls because that’s what the item description says.
Ravnodaus, show us that you can argue the opposite of what you think is true. If you can make a convincing argument that you can't use a focus in any way for a spell that doesn't have a M component (outside the artificer), then I'll take you seriously. Use quotes.
That's just it, I've been trying to understand yalls pov but it fails to make any sense whatsoever. This has been on my mind far more than it has any right to be the past few days. And I got nothing. Well, not nothing, but something I can immediately counter-argue. But, here goes.
The case against using it revolves around not being able to cast a non-M spell with a spellcasting focus. It requires a deliberate misread of the Material Components section to interpret it to say that a spell MUST have a M component in able to use a spellcasting focus. If the spell is non-M then your Arcane Focus is somehow unable to be used as a spellcasting focus (for unknown reasons) and is just a stick occupying your hand now. Since it isn't a spellcasting focus now, somehow, it can't qualify for the spellcasting focus and S components in the same hand perk.
That's my best understanding of the 'can't do it' camp.
But the Artificer disproves that pretty handily. Since the Artificer has a requirement to use a spellcasting focus with their spells, but if the spell must have a M component for something to be considered a spellcasting focus, then the Artificer cannot cast half their spells, those absent a M component. Obviously that's not true.
[Edit] In short, yalls argument seems to be: A object is only a spellcasting focus when it is actively replacing a material component during the casting of a spell.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
But the Artificer disproves that pretty handily. Since the Artificer has a requirement to use a spellcasting focus with their spells, but if the spell must have a M component for something to be considered a spellcasting focus, then the Artificer cannot cast half their spells, those absent a M component. Obviously that's not true.
Specific beats general and the artificer specifically must use a focus for all their spells which beats the more general rule that you can only use a focus for spells with a M or M+S component.
But the Artificer disproves that pretty handily. Since the Artificer has a requirement to use a spellcasting focus with their spells, but if the spell must have a M component for something to be considered a spellcasting focus, then the Artificer cannot cast half their spells, those absent a M component. Obviously that's not true.
Sure he can. Either you read this as 'every artificer spell has an M component' (class features can modify the casting components of a spell), or it just means he needs two hands (one for a focus, one for somatic components).
Yalls whole case hinges on something that doesn't exist.
The item itself gives the requirements to use it.
...
Shield. A shield is made from wood or metal and is carried in one hand. Wielding a shield increases your Armor Class by 2. You can benefit from only one shield at a time.
This is an example proving you are wrong. think about it before you respond.
Are you trying to argue that the requirements to use an Arcane focus are NOT listed in the item's description? So you think any class can use it?
Do you know how classes know what they can and cannot use? Could you tell me what you think the answer to that question is?
But the Artificer disproves that pretty handily. Since the Artificer has a requirement to use a spellcasting focus with their spells, but if the spell must have a M component for something to be considered a spellcasting focus, then the Artificer cannot cast half their spells, those absent a M component. Obviously that's not true.
Specific beats general and the artificer specifically must use a focus for all their spells which beats the more general rule that you can only use a focus for spells with a M or M+S component.
But if the argument is that an object is only a spellcasting focus while it replaces a material component... and the artificer MUST use a spellcasting focus... then he must only cast spells that can replace material components. Because nothing in the artificer spellcasting entry states that he can treat all spells as having a material component that needs to be replaced. So, if the argument that a spellcasting focus is only a thing that can exist while a material component is actively being replaced during the casting of a spell is true... then, he can only cast M component spells on his list.
Now, I obviously disagree with that line of reasoning. I think a spellcaster can cast any spell through a spellcasting focus. It doesn't need to be M only spells. My view is coherent with the wording and phrasing of the Artificer spellcasting entry.
The Spellcasting requirement listed for the Artificer is just that, a requirement. Having a requirement for something doesn't automatically allow you to bypass other requirements. Having to have high level spell slots to cast a high level spell is a general rule. The fact that a specific spellcasting focus requirement exists for the Artificer doesn't mean he just automatically waives that other general rule requirement just cuz.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
But the Artificer disproves that pretty handily. Since the Artificer has a requirement to use a spellcasting focus with their spells, but if the spell must have a M component for something to be considered a spellcasting focus, then the Artificer cannot cast half their spells, those absent a M component. Obviously that's not true.
Specific beats general and the artificer specifically must use a focus for all their spells which beats the more general rule that you can only use a focus for spells with a M or M+S component.
But if the argument is that an object is only a spellcasting focus while it replaces a material component... and the artificer MUST use a spellcasting focus... then he must only cast spells that can replace material components. Because nothing in the artificer spellcasting entry states that he can treat all spells as having a material component that needs to be replaced. So, if the argument that a spellcasting focus is only a thing that can exist while a material component is actively being replaced during the casting of a spell is true... then, he can only cast M component spells on his list.
Now, I obviously disagree with that line of reasoning. I think a spellcaster can cast any spell through a spellcasting focus. It doesn't need to be M only spells. My view is coherent with the wording and phrasing of the Artificer spellcasting entry.
The Spellcasting requirement listed for the Artificer is just that, a requirement. Having a requirement for something doesn't automatically allow you to bypass other requirements. Having to have high level spell slots to cast a high level spell is a general rule. The fact that a specific spellcasting focus requirement exists for the Artificer doesn't mean he just automatically waives that other general rule requirement just cuz.
[My emphasis] If you actually thought this then your original argument couldn't possibly work. You are reasoning yourself into a circle.
(Still cannot read your posts. Still just guessing with my rebuttals.)
How’s this? Here is the description for a Hammer: (I’ll even put it in your yore’s so you cannot say I haven’t quoted anything.)
“This one-handed hammer with an iron head is useful for pounding pitons into a wall.”
So by your logic, since that is what the description of the item says, one could only use a Hammer to pound pitons into walls because that’s what the item description says.
I'm not entirely sure what your deal is, or why you're here, and not actually contributing to the conversation. But no, the item description you quoted gives a non-exclusive example of what it can be used for, but doesn't use any sort of restrictive language suggesting that is the only thing it is useful for. And it isn't relevant to this topic just like the last dozen of your comments.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
But if the argument is that an object is only a spellcasting focus while it replaces a material component...
That isn't the argument. It's always a spellcasting focus, it just doesn't have any useful effect when the spell lacks a material component.
Of course there is no real benefit to doing it. LOL. But you CAN do it! I've only been arguing that you CAN do it. You CAN channel your Ray of Frost through your wand (arcane focus - spellcasting focus). That is 100% RAW.
Edit: But that is some people's argument here, btw. That's legit what they're saying.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Now I’m guessing that you’ve made some comment about how the rules for a hammer do not include the be-all-and-end-all of what a hammer can do or how it can be used. Am I right? In which case, is it possible that the rules for an Arcane Focus don’t include the be-all-and-end-all of when an Arcane Focus can be used...?
But if the argument is that an object is only a spellcasting focus while it replaces a material component...
That isn't the argument. It's always a spellcasting focus, it just doesn't have any useful effect when the spell lacks a material component.
Of course there is no real benefit to doing it. LOL. But you CAN do it! I've only been arguing that you CAN do it. You CAN channel your Ray of Frost through your wand (arcane focus - spellcasting focus). That is 100% RAW.
By your own admission, having a requirement doesn't negate other requirements. Casting a spell requires that you use the component rules of that spell that you are casting. The S component rules require a free hand and areonly negated by the M rules, which do not apply when a spell does not have an M component, whether you decide to hold one or not (because what you're holding does not have any impact on the components of the spell that you are casting -- there is no text anywhere that indicates that it does.
Of course there is no real benefit to doing it. LOL. But you CAN do it! I've only been arguing that you CAN do it. You CAN channel your Ray of Frost through your wand (arcane focus - spellcasting focus). That is 100% RAW.
Nope. The fact that it's a spellcasting focus does not permit you to channel spells through it unless the spell has a material component (side point: I consider this dumb and it isn't actually the way I run it in games, but I try to distinguish between what the rules are and what I think they should be).
Now I’m guessing that you’ve made some comment about how the rules for a hammer do not include the be-all-and-end-all of what a hammer can do or how it can be used. Am I right? In which case, is it possible that the rules for an Arcane Focus don’t include the be-all-and-end-all of when an Arcane Focus can be used...?
If you really are guessing at Rav's responses then you have mastered the art of troll engagement.
Having a requirement for something doesn't automatically allow you to bypass other requirements.
[My emphasis] If you actually thought this then your original argument couldn't possibly work. You are reasoning yourself into a circle.
How so? My reasoning seems consistent. You just follow the instructions of the rules text. When you cast a spell through an arcane focus, the item text directs you to the material component section. So you adhere to the rules text you are referenced to from the object you used. What about this is circular?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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This is supposedly the be-all answer to this whole thing and yet it is wrong. That bolded line is a lie.
It does say that a character CAN use it in place of a material component. It does NOT say ONLY.
That is your own invention. Fabrication.
The rule gives us permission to do so but doesn't in any way even hint that we MUST have a material component to replace in order to use a spellcasting focus with our spell. That is a whole invention of yalls. Someone round here is a illusionist cause yall been played.
Yeah, context matters. If an item says to reference a section of the rules, then that section is relevant when you use that item. Obviously.
So when we cast a Ray of Frost through a Wand then we do what the arcane focus rules says to do and reference the material component section.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
No they don't. You all have invented that, but it isn't there.
Yalls whole case hinges on something that doesn't exist.
The item itself gives the requirements to use it. The M section tells you the various benefits of using it. Ie replace M and same hand as S.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Shield. A shield is made from wood or metal and is carried in one hand. Wielding a shield increases your Armor Class by 2. You can benefit from only one shield at a time.
This is an example proving you are wrong. think about it before you respond.
Ravnodaus, show us that you can argue the opposite of what you think is true. If you can make a convincing argument that you can't use a focus in any way for a spell that doesn't have a M component (outside the artificer), then I'll take you seriously. Use quotes.
Are you trying to argue that the requirements to use an Arcane focus are NOT listed in the item's description? So you think any class can use it?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
(Still cannot read your posts. Still just guessing with my rebuttals.)
How’s this? Here is the description for a Hammer: (I’ll even put it in your yore’s so you cannot say I haven’t quoted anything.)
So by your logic, since that is what the description of the item says, one could only use a Hammer to pound pitons into walls because that’s what the item description says.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
That's just it, I've been trying to understand yalls pov but it fails to make any sense whatsoever. This has been on my mind far more than it has any right to be the past few days. And I got nothing. Well, not nothing, but something I can immediately counter-argue. But, here goes.
The case against using it revolves around not being able to cast a non-M spell with a spellcasting focus. It requires a deliberate misread of the Material Components section to interpret it to say that a spell MUST have a M component in able to use a spellcasting focus. If the spell is non-M then your Arcane Focus is somehow unable to be used as a spellcasting focus (for unknown reasons) and is just a stick occupying your hand now. Since it isn't a spellcasting focus now, somehow, it can't qualify for the spellcasting focus and S components in the same hand perk.
That's my best understanding of the 'can't do it' camp.
But the Artificer disproves that pretty handily. Since the Artificer has a requirement to use a spellcasting focus with their spells, but if the spell must have a M component for something to be considered a spellcasting focus, then the Artificer cannot cast half their spells, those absent a M component. Obviously that's not true.
[Edit] In short, yalls argument seems to be: A object is only a spellcasting focus when it is actively replacing a material component during the casting of a spell.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Specific beats general and the artificer specifically must use a focus for all their spells which beats the more general rule that you can only use a focus for spells with a M or M+S component.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Sure he can. Either you read this as 'every artificer spell has an M component' (class features can modify the casting components of a spell), or it just means he needs two hands (one for a focus, one for somatic components).
Do you know how classes know what they can and cannot use? Could you tell me what you think the answer to that question is?
But if the argument is that an object is only a spellcasting focus while it replaces a material component... and the artificer MUST use a spellcasting focus... then he must only cast spells that can replace material components. Because nothing in the artificer spellcasting entry states that he can treat all spells as having a material component that needs to be replaced. So, if the argument that a spellcasting focus is only a thing that can exist while a material component is actively being replaced during the casting of a spell is true... then, he can only cast M component spells on his list.
Now, I obviously disagree with that line of reasoning. I think a spellcaster can cast any spell through a spellcasting focus. It doesn't need to be M only spells. My view is coherent with the wording and phrasing of the Artificer spellcasting entry.
The Spellcasting requirement listed for the Artificer is just that, a requirement. Having a requirement for something doesn't automatically allow you to bypass other requirements. Having to have high level spell slots to cast a high level spell is a general rule. The fact that a specific spellcasting focus requirement exists for the Artificer doesn't mean he just automatically waives that other general rule requirement just cuz.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
That isn't the argument. It's always a spellcasting focus, it just doesn't have any useful effect when the spell lacks a material component.
[My emphasis] If you actually thought this then your original argument couldn't possibly work. You are reasoning yourself into a circle.
I'm not entirely sure what your deal is, or why you're here, and not actually contributing to the conversation. But no, the item description you quoted gives a non-exclusive example of what it can be used for, but doesn't use any sort of restrictive language suggesting that is the only thing it is useful for. And it isn't relevant to this topic just like the last dozen of your comments.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Of course there is no real benefit to doing it. LOL. But you CAN do it! I've only been arguing that you CAN do it. You CAN channel your Ray of Frost through your wand (arcane focus - spellcasting focus). That is 100% RAW.
Edit: But that is some people's argument here, btw. That's legit what they're saying.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Now I’m guessing that you’ve made some comment about how the rules for a hammer do not include the be-all-and-end-all of what a hammer can do or how it can be used. Am I right? In which case, is it possible that the rules for an Arcane Focus don’t include the be-all-and-end-all of when an Arcane Focus can be used...?
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
By your own admission, having a requirement doesn't negate other requirements. Casting a spell requires that you use the component rules of that spell that you are casting. The S component rules require a free hand and are only negated by the M rules, which do not apply when a spell does not have an M component, whether you decide to hold one or not (because what you're holding does not have any impact on the components of the spell that you are casting -- there is no text anywhere that indicates that it does.
Nope. The fact that it's a spellcasting focus does not permit you to channel spells through it unless the spell has a material component (side point: I consider this dumb and it isn't actually the way I run it in games, but I try to distinguish between what the rules are and what I think they should be).
If you really are guessing at Rav's responses then you have mastered the art of troll engagement.
How so? My reasoning seems consistent. You just follow the instructions of the rules text. When you cast a spell through an arcane focus, the item text directs you to the material component section. So you adhere to the rules text you are referenced to from the object you used. What about this is circular?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.