I'm not sure if you are saying that having a hand free to hold or manipulate components means that if you hold a component, the hand is still free. It is not.
I'm not saying it makes sense. Just that it seems to be what the rules are saying. Either that or it's assumed that the actual interaction is 'waggle fingers, then pull out the material component or focus to finish the spell', which is permitted in the same way that you're allowed to draw an arrow as part of the action to use a bow (which is a two-handed weapon).
I'm not sure if you are saying that having a hand free to hold or manipulate components means that if you hold a component, the hand is still free. It is not.
I'm not saying it makes sense. Just that it seems to be what the rules are saying. Either that or it's assumed that the actual interaction is 'waggle fingers, then pull out the material component or focus to finish the spell', which is permitted in the same way that you're allowed to draw an arrow as part of the action to use a bow (which is a two-handed weapon).
If I tell my boss I'm free for a meeting in the afternoon, but then we have that meeting, I'm not free.
I'm not sure if you are saying that having a hand free to hold or manipulate components means that if you hold a component, the hand is still free. It is not.
I'm not saying it makes sense. Just that it seems to be what the rules are saying. Either that or it's assumed that the actual interaction is 'waggle fingers, then pull out the material component or focus to finish the spell', which is permitted in the same way that you're allowed to draw an arrow as part of the action to use a bow (which is a two-handed weapon).
If the Arcane Focus is just that and nothing else, then it wouldn't make sense. If the Arcane Focus is acting as or in the place of the Material Component, then it ends up holding the "Material Component". If the spell requires a component that has a value or is consumed (are there any that are consumed but don't have value?) then that component still needs to be handled, which would seem to require a free hand (as per the material component rules). If the Arcane Focus (or any spellcasting focus) is used in place of the components specified for a spell, then it is the material component.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Incidentally, this is the reason why I brought up the argument that saying that an Arcane Focus can be used with Somatic non-M spells would lead to the conclusion that Subtle Spell would be useless. The only way that I can see that you could say that the Arcane Focus used is if it was replacing Material, Somatic, and Verbal Components via the clause "A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell."
If I tell my boss I'm free for a meeting in the afternoon, but then we have that meeting, I'm not free.
You're applying logic to text analysis. The key thing is this: using a material component does not state that you can perform somatic components without a free hand. Instead, it says that you can manipulate the material components with the free hand that you use to perform somatic components.
This is intelligible for a component pouch: you wiggle you finger, then reach into your pouch and pull out an ingredient. Likewise if your focus is something you have to touch and can then release when done. Less so for continually held foci.
If I tell my boss I'm free for a meeting in the afternoon, but then we have that meeting, I'm not free.
You're applying logic to text analysis. The key thing is this: using a material component does not state that you can perform somatic components without a free hand. Instead, it says that you can manipulate the material components with the free hand that you use to perform somatic components.
This is intelligible for a component pouch: you wiggle you finger, then reach into your pouch and pull out an ingredient. Likewise if your focus is something you have to touch and can then release when done. Less so for continually held foci.
Actually it says you use the component pouch. You don’t even need to pull out a component, you can wave it around like grisgris bag and that’s using it.
PS-And there’s nothing saying you can’t wear your component pouch on a Lanier day around your neck so you can just “use it” and then drop it for action economy.
PPS-That’s the most amusing part about this whole debate. There’s nothing that says you can’t have your Arcane Focus on a leather strap around your wrist for the same purpose. So if you really want, swapping can be action economy neutral. And since you can take any number of “flourishing” maneuvers for absolute frikin’ free.... So getting your “feather substitute” or getting rid of it is not a problem, all you need to get is the pearl (I know that’s a 1 min casting time, but just go with it) and if you wish to narratively describe the “flourishes” as coming from your “#holdingnotholding” focus it doesn’t freaking matter as long as you can technically fulfill the condition requirements. Which is why this is a completely academic exercise. And as I cannot learn here, and I cannot teach here, nothing academic is happening. So.... Adubdee, adubdee, a that’s all folks.
If I tell my boss I'm free for a meeting in the afternoon, but then we have that meeting, I'm not free.
You're applying logic to text analysis. The key thing is this: using a material component does not state that you can perform somatic components without a free hand. Instead, it says that you can manipulate the material components with the free hand that you use to perform somatic components.
This is intelligible for a component pouch: you wiggle you finger, then reach into your pouch and pull out an ingredient. Likewise if your focus is something you have to touch and can then release when done. Less so for continually held foci.
No matter how little logic you wish to apply, a hand holding a focus must qualify to be "a hand free ... to hold a spellcasting focus", but that doesn't make it empty - it is not free to do anything that it couldn't do while holding a focus.
No matter how little logic you wish to apply, a hand holding a focus must qualify to be "a hand free ... to hold a spellcasting focus", but that doesn't make it empty - it is not free to do anything that it couldn't do while holding a focus.
The thing is, there's no actual exemption to the 'hand free' requirement for somatic components. Instead, there's a statement that the free hand you need to have for somatic components can also be used for material components. Which is only consistent if handling material components does not actually make the hand not free (at least, not free for spellcasting purposes).
No matter how little logic you wish to apply, a hand holding a focus must qualify to be "a hand free ... to hold a spellcasting focus", but that doesn't make it empty - it is not free to do anything that it couldn't do while holding a focus.
The thing is, there's no actual exemption to the 'hand free' requirement for somatic components. Instead, there's a statement that the free hand you need to have for somatic components can also be used for material components. Which is only consistent if handling material components does not actually make the hand not free (at least, not free for spellcasting purposes).
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
You've clearly grasped that the hang up that we have is the M component. You tried to state it just before I rejoined the conversation. We argue that the presence of an M component are relevant and t you argue that relying on the presence of the M component is not necessary. Your insistence on that hasn't convinced anyone that says that it's relevant otherwise. You haven't introduced anything to make us think otherwise (the Artificer rules don't, even as an exception. That doesn't mean that the Artificer can't cast those spells via our argument, just that they can't do so while holding a weapon, even with the Arcane Firearm which isn't a weapon since it has no attack stats. It can simply act as an Artificer spellcasting focus on place of the normally required tools.) Thus, let your current arguments lend the sway that they will and agree to disagree. Otherwise, we'll continue you rehash the same 250 words or whatever the actual number is that has been rehashed because there is nothing new to add to the discussion (apparently).
Well, normally it would be. I totally agree that in a normal casting of a spell, you never reference the M component rules in any way. But. Since you are using an object that DOES reference those rules, you do reference them.
Do we disagree that the object references those rules? Is that where you're not getting this? The only part of the rules the Arcane Focus references is very specifically the Material Component portion of the Spellcasting Section. The object itself references that rules text, and so that rules text is relevant when the object is used.
When something references a rule, you use that rule.
The Arcane Focus references the material component portion of the Spellcasting section, so when you use an arcane focus you use those rules.
Nothing about this should be controversial this is D&D rules 101 here. Do what it says on the page.
Can you explain why you refuse to reference the rules that the object says to reference?
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Since you are using an object that DOES reference those rules, you do reference them.
No. If this is all that your argument is bound up on then you are wrong, it is still settled. The spell tells you what components you must use for its casting. The component rules tell you that too. You don't get to decide to use a focus. It is that simple.
You're right the rules don't use the word "only." That is why it was not in quotes. But there is only one rule about when you can use a focus (which is when casting a material component spell). I already explained why material component rules only apply when a material component is needed and you have not refuted that argument.
There is only one rule for when you can use an arcane focus, correct. But you're entirely wrong about where and what that rule is. That one rule is in the item description itself. A sorcerer, wizard, or warlock can use one when they cast their arcane spells. Period.
And *when* they do so, they specifically use the rules for the focus listed in the Spellcasting section, found in the Material Component rules. (Because that's what the item references)
Nothing about the rules found in that section tells us that there is any additional restriction of when the focus can or can't be used. You are fabricating that. It doesn't exist.
The only rule for when it can be used is found in the item description itself.
When checking the description of the focus item, it says to reference spellcasting rules. Spellcasting rules are quite clear when a spell requires your hand to be empty and when it allows you to be holding something. If a spell requires a somatic component, your hand must be empty. These rules are only specifically changed by material component rules. Material component rules of spell casting only apply if the spell you are casting has a material component. Again, as proven by my previous argument which you have not refuted.
Yeah, it says to reference the exact rules that you're claiming aren't being referenced. The material component rules normally only apply if your spell has material components true, UNLESS some other rule/ability/object/etc specifically references them. Which the Arcane Focus does. So, they become relevant because they are being referenced specifically by the object being used.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Since you are using an object that DOES reference those rules, you do reference them.
No. If this is all that your argument is bound up on then you are wrong, it is still settled. The spell tells you what components you must use for its casting. The component rules tell you that too. You don't get to decide to use a focus. It is that simple.
Who does then? The player to your right plays your character for you? Of course you get to decide if your character uses a focus or not. Who else would?
Kidding, sorta. Of course you get to decide if you use a focus or not. You have control over your characters choices. The item says you can do it, if your character has the item, is the right class, and casts the right kind of spell (arcane) then of course you get to decide if you want to use it or not.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components.
The player does not get to decide what components a spell has.
You've clearly grasped that the hang up that we have is the M component. You tried to state it just before I rejoined the conversation. We argue that the presence of an M component are relevant and t you argue that relying on the presence of the M component is not necessary. Your insistence on that hasn't convinced anyone that says that it's relevant otherwise. You haven't introduced anything to make us think otherwise (the Artificer rules don't, even as an exception. That doesn't mean that the Artificer can't cast those spells via our argument, just that they can't do so while holding a weapon, even with the Arcane Firearm which isn't a weapon since it has no attack stats. It can simply act as an Artificer spellcasting focus on place of the normally required tools.) Thus, let your current arguments lend the sway that they will and agree to disagree. Otherwise, we'll continue you rehash the same 250 words or whatever the actual number is that has been rehashed because there is nothing new to add to the discussion (apparently).
Well, normally it would be. I totally agree that in a normal casting of a spell, you never reference the M component rules in any way. But. Since you are using an object that DOES reference those rules, you do reference them.
Do we disagree that the object references those rules? Is that where you're not getting this? The only part of the rules the Arcane Focus references is very specifically the Material Component portion of the Spellcasting Section. The object itself references that rules text, and so that rules text is relevant when the object is used.
When something references a rule, you use that rule.
The Arcane Focus references the material component portion of the Spellcasting section, so when you use an arcane focus you use those rules.
Nothing about this should be controversial this is D&D rules 101 here. Do what it says on the page.
Can you explain why you refuse to reference the rules that the object says to reference?
What you are saying is similar to the rules for a math test saying you can only use a writing utensil and a piece of paper on it. There is a clause that says that for a portion of the test, you can use a calculator. You look at the handbook for the calculator, which says you can use it for calculations and assume that because the calculator says you can use it for all calculations, that you can use it for the portion of the test that says you can't.
Hm. I realize I've actually misread slightly the focus rules, but in a way that makes it less coherent if anything. There actually isn't an exemption for holding a focus, it's just that holding a focus may not cause a hand to be non-free. The relevant rules are:
If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Both of those specifically do require a free hand, it's just that apparently accessing material components, or holding a focus, does not make a hand non-free. This sort of makes sense for a component pouch (it actually isn't even held in your hand, you just reach into it for a component, so for a lot of the time it really is empty), but I have no idea how it's supposed to make sense for foci that actually have to be held in-hand. Which is then problematic in the case of foci that most certainly do not leave a hand free (debatable for wands and the like, but clearly not true for a shield or staff weapon).
On the topic of a holy symbol, this argues that having a holy symbol worn or emblazoned on a shield still forces you to have a free hand, perhaps you have to interact with it (in the same way you'd interact with a component pouch that you're wearing on your belt).
Yeah I was thinking about it and I think you're right. Even if you're wearing a holy symbol you technically still need a hand free to hold it, because the item description doesn't specifically address the requirement for a free hand that is found in the component rules.
So, in the case of like a holy symbol worn visibly as an amulet/necklace. You would need a hand free to reach up and hold it while casting, but it wouldn't otherwise need to be wielded or carried in hand while not casting with it. Just reach and grasp while casting and release.
I'm more convinced now than ever that a shield with a holy symbol on it shouldn't allow you to treat that hand as free under any circumstances whatsoever, tbh. Even though the sage advice says otherwise. It is a shield in your hand, that's a functional object being used for non-spellcasting reasons. Your hand is NOT free. You should need the other hand free to reach over and hold it. But, I also get that probably wasn't their intent so that's why they used that specific example because otherwise it doesn't make any sense that clerics should be able to do this.
Imagine a wizard glueing an orb to the front of a shield, and trying to get away with claiming he has a free hand holding the focus because it is on the shield.
...............
I've also realized that the ruling of the consensus here, plus these insights into what it means to hold something like a focus, means that you can simply wear your wand on your belt and never actually draw it out and it works fine so long as you have a free hand. You still can use it while tucked away within reach, because nothing actually says you need to carry or weild it in any way, just hold it. And that doesn't mean you need to draw it or anything, just like a Holy Symbol worn visibly can be held, so too a wand on your belt could be held. And that keeps your hand free all the time anyway. Which, of course, makes this entire thread even more pointless than it was before.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components.
The player does not get to decide what components a spell has.
He does when he works with the DM to design a new spell.
But no, seriously... a player does get to decide his characters actions. He can use an object he has in the manner described in that object's description.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components.
The spell has requirements. If you cannot meet them, you cannot cast the spell. A spell with S (and not M) requires a free hand (because that is what S says), regardless of what you are holding or try to decide to do.
You've clearly grasped that the hang up that we have is the M component. You tried to state it just before I rejoined the conversation. We argue that the presence of an M component are relevant and t you argue that relying on the presence of the M component is not necessary. Your insistence on that hasn't convinced anyone that says that it's relevant otherwise. You haven't introduced anything to make us think otherwise (the Artificer rules don't, even as an exception. That doesn't mean that the Artificer can't cast those spells via our argument, just that they can't do so while holding a weapon, even with the Arcane Firearm which isn't a weapon since it has no attack stats. It can simply act as an Artificer spellcasting focus on place of the normally required tools.) Thus, let your current arguments lend the sway that they will and agree to disagree. Otherwise, we'll continue you rehash the same 250 words or whatever the actual number is that has been rehashed because there is nothing new to add to the discussion (apparently).
Well, normally it would be. I totally agree that in a normal casting of a spell, you never reference the M component rules in any way. But. Since you are using an object that DOES reference those rules, you do reference them.
Do we disagree that the object references those rules? Is that where you're not getting this? The only part of the rules the Arcane Focus references is very specifically the Material Component portion of the Spellcasting Section. The object itself references that rules text, and so that rules text is relevant when the object is used.
When something references a rule, you use that rule.
The Arcane Focus references the material component portion of the Spellcasting section, so when you use an arcane focus you use those rules.
Nothing about this should be controversial this is D&D rules 101 here. Do what it says on the page.
Can you explain why you refuse to reference the rules that the object says to reference?
What you are saying is similar to the rules for a math test saying you can only use a writing utensil and a piece of paper on it. There is a clause that says that for a portion of the test, you can use a calculator. You look at the handbook for the calculator, which says you can use it for calculations and assume that because the calculator says you can use it for all calculations, that you can use it for the portion of the test that says you can't.
I love this example tbh. The only change is that the test DOESN"T say you can't use a calculator on it. Y'all just assuming that is true.
You guys keep saying you can only use a focus when there is M components. But that restriction IS NOT THERE.
If this was a math test that had that sort of restriction, you could EASILY point to it and quote it. But no one in this long, long thread has actually quoted anything that says you cannot use a focus with certain spells.
The item itself says you can. Nothing in the rules says otherwise. So, you can.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Hm. I realize I've actually misread slightly the focus rules, but in a way that makes it less coherent if anything. There actually isn't an exemption for holding a focus, it's just that holding a focus may not cause a hand to be non-free. The relevant rules are:
If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Both of those specifically do require a free hand, it's just that apparently accessing material components, or holding a focus, does not make a hand non-free. This sort of makes sense for a component pouch (it actually isn't even held in your hand, you just reach into it for a component, so for a lot of the time it really is empty), but I have no idea how it's supposed to make sense for foci that actually have to be held in-hand. Which is then problematic in the case of foci that most certainly do not leave a hand free (debatable for wands and the like, but clearly not true for a shield or staff weapon).
On the topic of a holy symbol, this argues that having a holy symbol worn or emblazoned on a shield still forces you to have a free hand, perhaps you have to interact with it (in the same way you'd interact with a component pouch that you're wearing on your belt).
Yeah I was thinking about it and I think you're right. Even if you're wearing a holy symbol you technically still need a hand free to hold it, because the item description doesn't specifically address the requirement for a free hand that is found in the component rules.
So, in the case of like a holy symbol worn visibly as an amulet/necklace. You would need a hand free to reach up and hold it while casting, but it wouldn't otherwise need to be wielded or carried in hand while not casting with it. Just reach and grasp while casting and release.
I'm more convinced now than ever that a shield with a holy symbol on it shouldn't allow you to treat that hand as free under any circumstances whatsoever, tbh. Even though the sage advice says otherwise. It is a shield in your hand, that's a functional object being used for non-spellcasting reasons. Your hand is NOT free. You should need the other hand free to reach over and hold it. But, I also get that probably wasn't their intent so that's why they used that specific example because otherwise it doesn't make any sense that clerics should be able to do this.
Imagine a wizard glueing an orb to the front of a shield, and trying to get away with claiming he has a free hand holding the focus because it is on the shield.
...............
I've also realized that the ruling of the consensus here, plus these insights into what it means to hold something like a focus, means that you can simply wear your wand on your belt and never actually draw it out and it works fine so long as you have a free hand. You still can use it while tucked away within reach, because nothing actually says you need to carry or weild it in any way, just hold it. And that doesn't mean you need to draw it or anything, just like a Holy Symbol worn visibly can be held, so too a wand on your belt could be held. And that keeps your hand free all the time anyway. Which, of course, makes this entire thread even more pointless than it was before.
That's what you're getting from the thread. At least you're right about it being pointless. Good Bye.
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I'm not saying it makes sense. Just that it seems to be what the rules are saying. Either that or it's assumed that the actual interaction is 'waggle fingers, then pull out the material component or focus to finish the spell', which is permitted in the same way that you're allowed to draw an arrow as part of the action to use a bow (which is a two-handed weapon).
If I tell my boss I'm free for a meeting in the afternoon, but then we have that meeting, I'm not free.
If the Arcane Focus is just that and nothing else, then it wouldn't make sense. If the Arcane Focus is acting as or in the place of the Material Component, then it ends up holding the "Material Component". If the spell requires a component that has a value or is consumed (are there any that are consumed but don't have value?) then that component still needs to be handled, which would seem to require a free hand (as per the material component rules). If the Arcane Focus (or any spellcasting focus) is used in place of the components specified for a spell, then it is the material component.
Incidentally, this is the reason why I brought up the argument that saying that an Arcane Focus can be used with Somatic non-M spells would lead to the conclusion that Subtle Spell would be useless. The only way that I can see that you could say that the Arcane Focus used is if it was replacing Material, Somatic, and Verbal Components via the clause "A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell."
You're applying logic to text analysis. The key thing is this: using a material component does not state that you can perform somatic components without a free hand. Instead, it says that you can manipulate the material components with the free hand that you use to perform somatic components.
This is intelligible for a component pouch: you wiggle you finger, then reach into your pouch and pull out an ingredient. Likewise if your focus is something you have to touch and can then release when done. Less so for continually held foci.
Actually it says you use the component pouch. You don’t even need to pull out a component, you can wave it around like grisgris bag and that’s using it.
PS-And there’s nothing saying you can’t wear your component pouch on a Lanier day around your neck so you can just “use it” and then drop it for action economy.
PPS-That’s the most amusing part about this whole debate. There’s nothing that says you can’t have your Arcane Focus on a leather strap around your wrist for the same purpose. So if you really want, swapping can be action economy neutral. And since you can take any number of “flourishing” maneuvers for absolute frikin’ free.... So getting your “feather substitute” or getting rid of it is not a problem, all you need to get is the pearl (I know that’s a 1 min casting time, but just go with it) and if you wish to narratively describe the “flourishes” as coming from your “#holdingnotholding” focus it doesn’t freaking matter as long as you can technically fulfill the condition requirements. Which is why this is a completely academic exercise. And as I cannot learn here, and I cannot teach here, nothing academic is happening. So.... Adubdee, adubdee, a that’s all folks.
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Hi. I'm just posting here so I get notifications whenever someone else does. It's amusing and infuriating to watch the debate that is going on.
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No matter how little logic you wish to apply, a hand holding a focus must qualify to be "a hand free ... to hold a spellcasting focus", but that doesn't make it empty - it is not free to do anything that it couldn't do while holding a focus.
The thing is, there's no actual exemption to the 'hand free' requirement for somatic components. Instead, there's a statement that the free hand you need to have for somatic components can also be used for material components. Which is only consistent if handling material components does not actually make the hand not free (at least, not free for spellcasting purposes).
There is an explicit requirement for a free hand https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/spellcasting#Components
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Well, normally it would be. I totally agree that in a normal casting of a spell, you never reference the M component rules in any way. But. Since you are using an object that DOES reference those rules, you do reference them.
Do we disagree that the object references those rules? Is that where you're not getting this? The only part of the rules the Arcane Focus references is very specifically the Material Component portion of the Spellcasting Section. The object itself references that rules text, and so that rules text is relevant when the object is used.
When something references a rule, you use that rule.
The Arcane Focus references the material component portion of the Spellcasting section, so when you use an arcane focus you use those rules.
Nothing about this should be controversial this is D&D rules 101 here. Do what it says on the page.
Can you explain why you refuse to reference the rules that the object says to reference?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Can you stop insisting that you get to decide how to apply component rules.
No. If this is all that your argument is bound up on then you are wrong, it is still settled. The spell tells you what components you must use for its casting. The component rules tell you that too. You don't get to decide to use a focus. It is that simple.
There is only one rule for when you can use an arcane focus, correct. But you're entirely wrong about where and what that rule is. That one rule is in the item description itself. A sorcerer, wizard, or warlock can use one when they cast their arcane spells. Period.
And *when* they do so, they specifically use the rules for the focus listed in the Spellcasting section, found in the Material Component rules. (Because that's what the item references)
Nothing about the rules found in that section tells us that there is any additional restriction of when the focus can or can't be used. You are fabricating that. It doesn't exist.
The only rule for when it can be used is found in the item description itself.
Yeah, it says to reference the exact rules that you're claiming aren't being referenced. The material component rules normally only apply if your spell has material components true, UNLESS some other rule/ability/object/etc specifically references them. Which the Arcane Focus does. So, they become relevant because they are being referenced specifically by the object being used.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Who does then? The player to your right plays your character for you? Of course you get to decide if your character uses a focus or not. Who else would?
Kidding, sorta. Of course you get to decide if you use a focus or not. You have control over your characters choices. The item says you can do it, if your character has the item, is the right class, and casts the right kind of spell (arcane) then of course you get to decide if you want to use it or not.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The player does not get to decide what components a spell has.
What you are saying is similar to the rules for a math test saying you can only use a writing utensil and a piece of paper on it. There is a clause that says that for a portion of the test, you can use a calculator. You look at the handbook for the calculator, which says you can use it for calculations and assume that because the calculator says you can use it for all calculations, that you can use it for the portion of the test that says you can't.
Yeah I was thinking about it and I think you're right. Even if you're wearing a holy symbol you technically still need a hand free to hold it, because the item description doesn't specifically address the requirement for a free hand that is found in the component rules.
So, in the case of like a holy symbol worn visibly as an amulet/necklace. You would need a hand free to reach up and hold it while casting, but it wouldn't otherwise need to be wielded or carried in hand while not casting with it. Just reach and grasp while casting and release.
I'm more convinced now than ever that a shield with a holy symbol on it shouldn't allow you to treat that hand as free under any circumstances whatsoever, tbh. Even though the sage advice says otherwise. It is a shield in your hand, that's a functional object being used for non-spellcasting reasons. Your hand is NOT free. You should need the other hand free to reach over and hold it. But, I also get that probably wasn't their intent so that's why they used that specific example because otherwise it doesn't make any sense that clerics should be able to do this.
Imagine a wizard glueing an orb to the front of a shield, and trying to get away with claiming he has a free hand holding the focus because it is on the shield.
...............
I've also realized that the ruling of the consensus here, plus these insights into what it means to hold something like a focus, means that you can simply wear your wand on your belt and never actually draw it out and it works fine so long as you have a free hand. You still can use it while tucked away within reach, because nothing actually says you need to carry or weild it in any way, just hold it. And that doesn't mean you need to draw it or anything, just like a Holy Symbol worn visibly can be held, so too a wand on your belt could be held. And that keeps your hand free all the time anyway. Which, of course, makes this entire thread even more pointless than it was before.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
He does when he works with the DM to design a new spell.
But no, seriously... a player does get to decide his characters actions. He can use an object he has in the manner described in that object's description.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The spell has requirements. If you cannot meet them, you cannot cast the spell. A spell with S (and not M) requires a free hand (because that is what S says), regardless of what you are holding or try to decide to do.
I love this example tbh. The only change is that the test DOESN"T say you can't use a calculator on it. Y'all just assuming that is true.
You guys keep saying you can only use a focus when there is M components. But that restriction IS NOT THERE.
If this was a math test that had that sort of restriction, you could EASILY point to it and quote it. But no one in this long, long thread has actually quoted anything that says you cannot use a focus with certain spells.
The item itself says you can. Nothing in the rules says otherwise. So, you can.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
That's what you're getting from the thread. At least you're right about it being pointless. Good Bye.