A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components.
You are reading the M section as if it is not something that is required of spells. Try reading the quote that I've provided for my last several responses. Components are requirements of spells -- that is what they are. A spellcasting focus is merely a method of fulfilling one of those components -- the M component.
By the way, the "second" exception that you pointed out is the single exception that I said. The only way that a spell has the requirement of a M component is if that indicates it -- without the M indication, then the spell does not have the material component requirement, and therefore does not have any exception.
This is nonsense. We already covered this. Artificers require a spellcasting focus on their non M spells so everything in this quote of yours is gibberish and you know it. A spellcasting focus isn't just a material component in a different form. It is an object that you cast your spell through. Ie.
designed to channel the power of arcane spells.
It isn't just some universal component replacement. Though it also does do that. You cast your spells THROUGH it. And when you cast your spells through it, IF it had a M component, the focus takes care of that requirement as you channel the spell through it. (unless it is expensive, Obvs)
You can use your arcane firearm as a spellcasting focus for your artificer spells. When you cast an artificer spell through the firearm, roll a d8, and you gain bonus to one of the spell's damage rolls equal to the number rolled.
You fundamentally don't understand what a focus is or how to use it.
You cast spells through it. It channels them.
And not a single line of text that ANY of you have quoted says it must ONLY channel M spells. That is a lie. You know it is a lie.
Nothing says that anywhere.
And WHEN you channel your spells through the focus you adhere to the rules it LINKS to in ITS description.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Still not sure? What's JC say? See sig.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
An arcane focus is a special item designed to channel the power of arcane spells.
First, there's no mechanical definition of "channel the power" or "arcane spells" those are both flavor texts, and refers you to the Spellcasting section for clarifications of how this works.
There is no such thing as flavor text 5e, this isn't Magic the Gathering. Dismissing the actual text of the book as flavor text when it contradicts you is the opposite of following RAW. The item does exactly what it says it does, whether you understand what those words mean or not is a different question.
A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as described in the Spellcasting section.
Again, they can use it as a spellcasting focus. This section only tells you that wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks follow the rules in the spellcasting section.
Ah, another point of agreement. They can use it as a spellcasting focus. And, when doing so, they follow the rules for the spellcasting focus as found in the spellcasting section.
The Arcane Focus tells us we can use it as a spellcasting focus for our arcane spells. It doesn't say we can only use it as a spellcasting focus for M spells. No such restriction exists.
That section doesn't say anything mechanically besides defining what are arcane casters and what their focuses are. Just because the rules aren't explained in one part of the book doesn't mean that it's not explained in another part of it.
Mechanically it tells us that we can use the arcane focus with our arcane spells as a spellcasting focus, that we can channel those spells through it, and only if we are a sorcerer, wizard, or warlock. That's plenty of mechanics right there.
You have deluded yourself into thinking such a restriction exists but in a none of the posts in this thread has a single one of you actually provided anything to back up that ludicrous hallucination.
You are confusing RAW with RAI.
Naw, I'm not. The RAI does support my view of the RAW though. Almost like I'm right on both fronts. RAF does too.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
That's it, ima flag every insulting post made in the thread tonight and ask it get locked. Its been 2 pages since anything new has been said.
I wouldn't lock the thread, this is still a confusing topic, and it needs clarification for new players, but there is misinformation on this thread, and those spreading it should be banned from this thread.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
An arcane focus is a special item designed to channel the power of arcane spells.
First, there's no mechanical definition of "channel the power" or "arcane spells" those are both flavor texts, and refers you to the Spellcasting section for clarifications of how this works.
There is no such thing as flavor text 5e, this isn't Magic the Gathering. Dismissing the actual text of the book as flavor text when it contradicts you is the opposite of following RAW. The item does exactly what it says it does, whether you understand what those words mean or not is a different question.
Have you read any D&D book ever? Any class or subclass description? They are filled to the brim with flavor text. There's flavor text. The fact that there is literally no definition of an Arcane Spell or Channeling Spells in D&D is proof that it's flavor text. If it says something that doesn't give it any mechanical benefits, that's flavor text.
You're right about one thing here, this game isn't Magic: the Gathering. You don't get any points for that, though.
A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as described in the Spellcasting section.
Again, they can use it as a spellcasting focus. This section only tells you that wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks follow the rules in the spellcasting section.
Ah, another point of agreement. They can use it as a spellcasting focus. And, when doing so, they follow the rules for the spellcasting focus as found in the spellcasting section.
Yes. We can agree that Arcane focus can be used as a spellcasting focus. That's literally its definition. The point of the text explaining the Arcane Focus is to define what it is, and that points you to the spellcasting section of the PHB.
The Arcane Focus tells us we can use it as a spellcasting focus for our arcane spells. It doesn't say we can only use it as a spellcasting focus for M spells. No such restriction exists.
That section doesn't say anything mechanically besides defining what are arcane casters and what their focuses are. Just because the rules aren't explained in one part of the book doesn't mean that it's not explained in another part of it.
Mechanically it tells us that we can use the arcane focus with our arcane spells as a spellcasting focus, that we can channel those spells through it, and only if we are a sorcerer, wizard, or warlock. That's plenty of mechanics right there.
Okay, so, yes, you can channel your spells through the arcane focus as a spellcasting focus. The thing is, there's no mechanical definition of "channeling" and the rest is only saying that Warlocks, Wizards, and Sorcerers are arcane casters. They don't list mechanics for spellcasting focuses in the definition, because then they'd have to do that for every other spellcasting focus in the game. It saves room to put "this can be used by x-classes as spellcasting focuses as described in the spellcasting section of the PHB." The only mechanical difference between an Arcane Focus and a Holy Symbol is what they physically appear to be, and who can use them.
You have deluded yourself into thinking such a restriction exists but in a none of the posts in this thread has a single one of you actually provided anything to back up that ludicrous hallucination.
You are confusing RAW with RAI.
Naw, I'm not. The RAI does support my view of the RAW though. Almost like I'm right on both fronts. RAF does too.
You are wrong. There's a difference between RAW and RAI in this circumstance. RAF is the same as RAI in this circumstance.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
You cut that out of the Material components section of the Spellcasting chapter. That only applies, RAW, to spells that have material components with no cost and are not consumed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components.
If a spell has a requirement, it must be met to cast that spell, regardless of what you think you can do with a focus.
A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components.
If a spell has a requirement, it must be met to cast that spell, regardless of what you think you can do with a focus.
This is 100% true. Otherwise, every cleric ever would just ignore the diamonds they need to bring people back to life.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components.
If a spell has a requirement, it must be met to cast that spell, regardless of what you think you can do with a focus.
Sure, that was never in contention. Everyone agrees on this.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Gotta have a free hand for S components, but it can be the same hand holding a focus.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
You cut that out of the Material components section of the Spellcasting chapter. That only applies, RAW, to spells that have material components with no cost and are not consumed.
I quoted that from the rules text the Arcane Focus directs you to for how to use it, so it applies when you use it.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components.
If a spell has a requirement, it must be met to cast that spell, regardless of what you think you can do with a focus.
Sure, that was never in contention. Everyone agrees on this.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Gotta have a free hand for S components, but it can be the same hand holding a focus.
But only when the spell has a material component with no cost and it isn't consumed. Only then.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
You cut that out of the Material components section of the Spellcasting chapter. That only applies, RAW, to spells that have material components with no cost and are not consumed.
I quoted that from the rules text the Arcane Focus directs you to for how to use it, so it applies when you use it.
It applies to when you can use it, because that specifically says when RAW you gain the benefit of using a spellcasting/arcane focus. There are no benefits RAW when the spell has no material components or it has components that are consumed or have a cost.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components.
A spell with an S (but not M) component has a requirement for a free hand. Nothing (***presented here***) relieves that requirement for S (but not M) spells (as pointed out, RAW, not even the tools requirement for Artificers). The particular component requirement is for the spell that you are casting. If you cannot meet the requirements of casting the spell you cannot cast it. Nothing about wanting to cast a S but not M spell with a focus changes the spell into having an M component that would change the requirements imposed by the S component.
So, NightskyPirate, you are right in your assessment, but there are rules telling you that you at least still need to be able to fulfill the requirements of the spell that you are casting. The requirements for particular spells are:
V: Ability to speak (unrelated and doesn't really matter to this discussion).
S: A free hand.
M: A free hand or a focus in hand.
S,M: A free hand or a focus in hand (not two free hands).
As I said, holding a focus does not add M to a spell, so its requirement for a free hand remains unchanged. Note that S indicates a requirement for a free hand, not a hand that can be holding a focus.
The text under material components describes spells with the requirement of material components only. It does not describe general rules for anything beyond spells with material components. The reason this text exists is to tell you what is required when a spell indicates that it has material components.
I'm a bit lost here, since there seem to be several arguments and misreadings going on. In particular, Artificer is confusing the issue.
As I understand it, for M and S component spells, the caster needs:
For a non-Artificer: M spell - need 1 free hand (it will hold one or more components for the spell, which could include a spellcasting focus). S spell - need 1 free hand (it will make arcane gestures). M,S spell - need 1 free hand (it will hold one or more components, which could include a spellcasting focus, and make magical gestures with those components).
For an S spell, the free hand can't be holding anything (including a focus) because that means the hand is not free.
For an Artificer: M spell - need 1 free hand (it will hold one or more components for the spell, which could include an artisan's tool). S spell - need 2 free hands (one will make arcane gestures, the other will hold an artisan's tool). M,S spell - need 1 free hand (it will hold one or more components, , which could include an artisan's tool, and make magical gestures with those components).
For an S spell, you need two hands because the gesturing hand can't be holding anything (including an artisan's tool) because that means the hand is not free.
Features like War Caster feat and the holy symbol rules for Clerics and Paladin's will modify these. Should I attempt to detail those cases?
I think RAW you are correct Greenstone_Walker, at least as it was explained to me. The text of "tools required" only says that you need tools or another focus to cast all spells, but it does not go on to say that the other requirements of spells are at all modified for a spell. If RAI, they want you to treat all of your spells as if they had an M component, then they need to indicate that in the text somewhere. They do not.
You can cast Hex while holding a weapon in one hand and an arcane focus in the other. You cannot cast Eldritch Blast because it does not have a M component. If you have the War Caster feat you could cast Eldritch Blast.
You can substitute any spell with a S and M component for Hex and you can substitute any spell with only a S or V,S component for Eldritch Blast and the statements remain true (unless your class has some other ability)
Wolf, you answered perfectly, exactly the sort of response I hoped to see. Indeed one can hold a wand while casting a S or S/V spell, as long as they have a free hand (which is NOT what the hand holding the wand is, as Wolf explained!) Anyone who gets this far should see that Rav's logic circle has been repeatedly squashed and he continues to be hard-headed, occasionally quoting and bolding rules that aren't relevant. Namely, trying to say that a class has a focus and can use it to cast spells. Also using snippet tactics, taking a fragment of rules to emphasize his point and omitting the rest. (smh) I don't understand why he'd do that.
I saw before that he resorted to insults, and he continues to do so. I see no reason to be kind about it. He sees one rule, then forgets that others do override them, selectively ignoring other rules and interpretations that don't support his idea that he gets. The worst kind of rules-lawyer. He demonstrated it himself:
Ravnodaus, show us that you can argue the opposite of what you think is true. If you can make a convincing argument that you can't use a focus in any way for a spell that doesn't have a M component (outside the artificer), then I'll take you seriously. Use quotes.
That's just it, I've been trying to understand yalls pov but it fails to make any sense whatsoever. This has been on my mind far more than it has any right to be the past few days. And I got nothing. Well, not nothing, but something I can immediately counter-argue. But, here goes.
The case against using it revolves around not being able to cast a non-M spell with a spellcasting focus. It requires a deliberate misread of the Material Components section to interpret it to say that a spell MUST have a M component in able to use a spellcasting focus. If the spell is non-M then your Arcane Focus is somehow unable to be used as a spellcasting focus (for unknown reasons) and is just a stick occupying your hand now. Since it isn't a spellcasting focus now, somehow, it can't qualify for the spellcasting focus and S components in the same hand perk.
That's my best understanding of the 'can't do it' camp.
But the Artificer disproves that pretty handily. Since the Artificer has a requirement to use a spellcasting focus with their spells, but if the spell must have a M component for something to be considered a spellcasting focus, then the Artificer cannot cast half their spells, those absent a M component. Obviously that's not true.
[Edit] In short, yalls argument seems to be: A object is only a spellcasting focus when it is actively replacing a material component during the casting of a spell.
So, I believe I should do the same, to demonstrate to Rav that we DO understand what he's saying, and insist that it is incorrect. The following is incorrect, but I believe demonstrates his argument.
The rules clearly say that a focus can be used to perform somatic components- or at the very least, somatic components can be performed by the hand holding a focus. Jeremy said so too. Because of that, spells that only have somatic components can still be can be cast by a hand holding a focus. The Material Component rules say that the focus has that ability, and that line doesn't go away because the spell doesn't have the Material component. That rule is ever-present and always applies. In other words, a Focus always has the ability to perform somatic components when held. So you can cast a spell if you're holding a focus, regardless of its components, as long as you can fulfill the Verbal component if needed.
By the way, you can't use a shield with a holy symbol any time there are somatic components as a focus because you need your hands to perform somatic gestures. (I can't contain myself here, this is flat out dumb wrong and even goes against his own logic. The Holy Symbol rules spell it out otherwise.)
That last line is rather convincing that he is trolling, and I loathe to say it. He refuses to admit that a focus can not perform somatic components when the Material component is not present in the spell. He believes that a focus can always be used to perform the Somatic component, but then contradicts himself regarding holy symbol shields. By his own reasoning, a Cleric should not have to free a hand to cast cure wounds, but instead does that shenanigans.
That's it, ima flag every insulting post made in the thread tonight and ask it get locked. Its been 2 pages since anything new has been said.
This is nonsense. We already covered this. Artificers require a spellcasting focus on their non M spells so everything in this quote of yours is gibberish and you know it. A spellcasting focus isn't just a material component in a different form. It is an object that you cast your spell through. Ie.
It isn't just some universal component replacement. Though it also does do that. You cast your spells THROUGH it. And when you cast your spells through it, IF it had a M component, the focus takes care of that requirement as you channel the spell through it. (unless it is expensive, Obvs)
You fundamentally don't understand what a focus is or how to use it.
You cast spells through it. It channels them.
And not a single line of text that ANY of you have quoted says it must ONLY channel M spells. That is a lie. You know it is a lie.
Nothing says that anywhere.
And WHEN you channel your spells through the focus you adhere to the rules it LINKS to in ITS description.
Still not sure? What's JC say? See sig.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
JC is not RAW. Most often, it is RAI. Rules as Written is what is written in the books. Rules as Interpreted is what the rules are meant to say.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
There is no such thing as flavor text 5e, this isn't Magic the Gathering. Dismissing the actual text of the book as flavor text when it contradicts you is the opposite of following RAW. The item does exactly what it says it does, whether you understand what those words mean or not is a different question.
Ah, another point of agreement. They can use it as a spellcasting focus. And, when doing so, they follow the rules for the spellcasting focus as found in the spellcasting section.
Mechanically it tells us that we can use the arcane focus with our arcane spells as a spellcasting focus, that we can channel those spells through it, and only if we are a sorcerer, wizard, or warlock. That's plenty of mechanics right there.
Naw, I'm not. The RAI does support my view of the RAW though. Almost like I'm right on both fronts. RAF does too.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I wouldn't lock the thread, this is still a confusing topic, and it needs clarification for new players, but there is misinformation on this thread, and those spreading it should be banned from this thread.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
The rule.
As.
It is written.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Have you read any D&D book ever? Any class or subclass description? They are filled to the brim with flavor text. There's flavor text. The fact that there is literally no definition of an Arcane Spell or Channeling Spells in D&D is proof that it's flavor text. If it says something that doesn't give it any mechanical benefits, that's flavor text.
You're right about one thing here, this game isn't Magic: the Gathering. You don't get any points for that, though.
Yes. We can agree that Arcane focus can be used as a spellcasting focus. That's literally its definition. The point of the text explaining the Arcane Focus is to define what it is, and that points you to the spellcasting section of the PHB.
Okay, so, yes, you can channel your spells through the arcane focus as a spellcasting focus. The thing is, there's no mechanical definition of "channeling" and the rest is only saying that Warlocks, Wizards, and Sorcerers are arcane casters. They don't list mechanics for spellcasting focuses in the definition, because then they'd have to do that for every other spellcasting focus in the game. It saves room to put "this can be used by x-classes as spellcasting focuses as described in the spellcasting section of the PHB." The only mechanical difference between an Arcane Focus and a Holy Symbol is what they physically appear to be, and who can use them.
You are wrong. There's a difference between RAW and RAI in this circumstance. RAF is the same as RAI in this circumstance.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
You cut that out of the Material components section of the Spellcasting chapter. That only applies, RAW, to spells that have material components with no cost and are not consumed.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
If a spell has a requirement, it must be met to cast that spell, regardless of what you think you can do with a focus.
This is 100% true. Otherwise, every cleric ever would just ignore the diamonds they need to bring people back to life.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Sure, that was never in contention. Everyone agrees on this.
Gotta have a free hand for S components, but it can be the same hand holding a focus.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I quoted that from the rules text the Arcane Focus directs you to for how to use it, so it applies when you use it.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
But only when the spell has a material component with no cost and it isn't consumed. Only then.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
It applies to when you can use it, because that specifically says when RAW you gain the benefit of using a spellcasting/arcane focus. There are no benefits RAW when the spell has no material components or it has components that are consumed or have a cost.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
"But it doesn't say you can't use it when it doesn't have a M component!"
This is, of course, wrong, but it is what he thinks.
A spell with an S (but not M) component has a requirement for a free hand. Nothing (***presented here***) relieves that requirement for S (but not M) spells (as pointed out, RAW, not even the tools requirement for Artificers). The particular component requirement is for the spell that you are casting. If you cannot meet the requirements of casting the spell you cannot cast it. Nothing about wanting to cast a S but not M spell with a focus changes the spell into having an M component that would change the requirements imposed by the S component.
So, NightskyPirate, you are right in your assessment, but there are rules telling you that you at least still need to be able to fulfill the requirements of the spell that you are casting. The requirements for particular spells are:
As I said, holding a focus does not add M to a spell, so its requirement for a free hand remains unchanged. Note that S indicates a requirement for a free hand, not a hand that can be holding a focus.
The text under material components describes spells with the requirement of material components only. It does not describe general rules for anything beyond spells with material components. The reason this text exists is to tell you what is required when a spell indicates that it has material components.
I'm a bit lost here, since there seem to be several arguments and misreadings going on. In particular, Artificer is confusing the issue.
As I understand it, for M and S component spells, the caster needs:
For a non-Artificer:
M spell - need 1 free hand (it will hold one or more components for the spell, which could include a spellcasting focus).
S spell - need 1 free hand (it will make arcane gestures).
M,S spell - need 1 free hand (it will hold one or more components, which could include a spellcasting focus, and make magical gestures with those components).
For an S spell, the free hand can't be holding anything (including a focus) because that means the hand is not free.
For an Artificer:
M spell - need 1 free hand (it will hold one or more components for the spell, which could include an artisan's tool).
S spell - need 2 free hands (one will make arcane gestures, the other will hold an artisan's tool).
M,S spell - need 1 free hand (it will hold one or more components, , which could include an artisan's tool, and make magical gestures with those components).
For an S spell, you need two hands because the gesturing hand can't be holding anything (including an artisan's tool) because that means the hand is not free.
Features like War Caster feat and the holy symbol rules for Clerics and Paladin's will modify these. Should I attempt to detail those cases?
I think RAW you are correct Greenstone_Walker, at least as it was explained to me. The text of "tools required" only says that you need tools or another focus to cast all spells, but it does not go on to say that the other requirements of spells are at all modified for a spell. If RAI, they want you to treat all of your spells as if they had an M component, then they need to indicate that in the text somewhere. They do not.
You can cast Hex while holding a weapon in one hand and an arcane focus in the other. You cannot cast Eldritch Blast because it does not have a M component. If you have the War Caster feat you could cast Eldritch Blast.
You can substitute any spell with a S and M component for Hex and you can substitute any spell with only a S or V,S component for Eldritch Blast and the statements remain true (unless your class has some other ability)
Wolf, you answered perfectly, exactly the sort of response I hoped to see. Indeed one can hold a wand while casting a S or S/V spell, as long as they have a free hand (which is NOT what the hand holding the wand is, as Wolf explained!) Anyone who gets this far should see that Rav's logic circle has been repeatedly squashed and he continues to be hard-headed, occasionally quoting and bolding rules that aren't relevant. Namely, trying to say that a class has a focus and can use it to cast spells. Also using snippet tactics, taking a fragment of rules to emphasize his point and omitting the rest. (smh) I don't understand why he'd do that.
I saw before that he resorted to insults, and he continues to do so. I see no reason to be kind about it. He sees one rule, then forgets that others do override them, selectively ignoring other rules and interpretations that don't support his idea that he gets. The worst kind of rules-lawyer. He demonstrated it himself:
I demanded that he make an argument from the opposing perspective, which he completely failed to do (not for a lack of trying, post #269).
That's just it, I've been trying to understand yalls pov but it fails to make any sense whatsoever. This has been on my mind far more than it has any right to be the past few days. And I got nothing. Well, not nothing, but something I can immediately counter-argue. But, here goes.
The case against using it revolves around not being able to cast a non-M spell with a spellcasting focus. It requires a deliberate misread of the Material Components section to interpret it to say that a spell MUST have a M component in able to use a spellcasting focus. If the spell is non-M then your Arcane Focus is somehow unable to be used as a spellcasting focus (for unknown reasons) and is just a stick occupying your hand now. Since it isn't a spellcasting focus now, somehow, it can't qualify for the spellcasting focus and S components in the same hand perk.
That's my best understanding of the 'can't do it' camp.
But the Artificer disproves that pretty handily. Since the Artificer has a requirement to use a spellcasting focus with their spells, but if the spell must have a M component for something to be considered a spellcasting focus, then the Artificer cannot cast half their spells, those absent a M component. Obviously that's not true.
[Edit] In short, yalls argument seems to be: A object is only a spellcasting focus when it is actively replacing a material component during the casting of a spell.
So, I believe I should do the same, to demonstrate to Rav that we DO understand what he's saying, and insist that it is incorrect. The following is incorrect, but I believe demonstrates his argument.
The rules clearly say that a focus can be used to perform somatic components- or at the very least, somatic components can be performed by the hand holding a focus. Jeremy said so too. Because of that, spells that only have somatic components can still be can be cast by a hand holding a focus. The Material Component rules say that the focus has that ability, and that line doesn't go away because the spell doesn't have the Material component. That rule is ever-present and always applies. In other words, a Focus always has the ability to perform somatic components when held. So you can cast a spell if you're holding a focus, regardless of its components, as long as you can fulfill the Verbal component if needed.
By the way, you can't use a shield with a holy symbol any time there are somatic components as a focus because you need your hands to perform somatic gestures. (I can't contain myself here, this is flat out dumb wrong and even goes against his own logic. The Holy Symbol rules spell it out otherwise.)
That last line is rather convincing that he is trolling, and I loathe to say it. He refuses to admit that a focus can not perform somatic components when the Material component is not present in the spell. He believes that a focus can always be used to perform the Somatic component, but then contradicts himself regarding holy symbol shields. By his own reasoning, a Cleric should not have to free a hand to cast cure wounds, but instead does that shenanigans.
Self-contradicting. Circular, exclusionary thought. Hard-headed.
When will it stop?