So I’m currently playing a oath of the ancients paladin with the shield master feat. I was able to acquire the arrow catching shield........I don’t know if this has already been asked but what constitutes a ranged attack regarding a spell that would trigger the shield master ability to add my shields +4 to AC against ranged attacks. Do they require to make a attack roll or is any spell that has range greater than touch classed as a ranged attack for the purpose of this ability?
I'm not sure what you are talking about "shield master ability to add +4 to AC against ranged attacks." The arrow catching shield let's you add +2 to AC against ranged attacks. The shield master feat lets you add shield bonus to DEX saves.
To answer your question about what is a ranged attack, the attack will say if it is. If you have to "make a ranged weapon attack" or "ranged spell attack," it is a ranged attack.
Shield Master doesn't grant an AC bonus against ranged attacks. It grants a bonus to Dexterity saving throws against spells that target only you, like Disintegrate.
Something is a ranged attack if the rules say it's a ranged attack.
Sorry I wasn’t clear, the arrow catching shield becomes a +4 shield against ranged attacks and the shield master ability allows me to add the AC of my shield to my dexterity saves. So I either gain a +2 or +4 depending on what is classed as a ranged attack.
For ease Eldridge blast is obviously a ranged attack as it is in the spells description however chain lightning is still a ranged attack but doesn’t require a attack roll so would I gain the bonus ac from the arrow catching shield +4 or would I simply get +2 to my den providing it only targets myself.
Nowhere in the spell Chain Lightning does it say it makes a ranged attack roll - therefore it isn't a ranged attack. It's really that simple.
Spells typically are either attack rolls (melee or ranged will be specified) or saving throws. If they are saving throws then they are not attacks - and consequently they won't trigger the shield's extra +2.
Sorry I wasn’t clear, the arrow catching shield becomes a +4 shield against ranged attacks and the shield master ability allows me to add the AC of my shield to my dexterity saves. So I either gain a +2 or +4 depending on what is classed as a ranged attack.
For ease Eldridge blast is obviously a ranged attack as it is in the spells description however chain lightning is still a ranged attack but doesn’t require a attack roll so would I gain the bonus ac from the arrow catching shield +4 or would I simply get +2 to my den providing it only targets myself.
There is a very simple answer to your actual question of "when can I add +4 to my Dex saves by combining both of these features?": never.
Your shield bonus is only +4 (with a mundane shield) when a ranged attack roll is being made. Spells/harmful effects requiring a Dex save do not ever involve an attack roll. They will never overlap.
The only time that you will be able to add your shield AC bonus to your Dex saving throw against a spell is if the spell only targets you. Think about it like Twinned Spell Metamagic: if the spell is eligible for a Sorcerer to twin it (and targets your Dex save), then it is eligible for the bonus to your save from Shield Master.
I.e., Fireball never qualifies. You're basically left with Hellish Rebuke, Sacred Flame, and Snare. On paper, this particular bullet from the feat is spectacularly poor. It will be applicable mostly from the "other harmful effects" clause, so pay attention to monsters that have abilities that trigger a Dex save as an added effect of their attacks.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The above will never overlap with something that causes a saving throw like chain lightning. Shield Master will always add +2 to your Dexterity save, and never +4.
It is a little weird, that something can cause damage at range, and not be a ranged attack. But its to differentiate weapons / projectiles from area of effect type things.
Well, there are some spells that kind of overlap. Ice Knife comes to mind... it makes a ranged attack roll against the target (triggering the shield to become a +4), and then afterwards asks them to make a Dexterity saving throw. Even in that situation though, the two effects still don't overlap. The ranged attack made by the spell is a separate event than the saving throw it causes afterwards, and by the time you're making a save the trigger on your shield has already passed.
Ice Knife is a hard one to rule as it does say "The target and each creature within 5 feet of it", but generally speaking that's not true. It's against things that target only you, not hit only you. AoE spells and effects don't actually (typically) target anything but... well, an area. A point in space, as it were.
Fireball can't target a creature even if you fire it directly at them; it targets the space they are in. Lightning Bolt doesn't target a creature, it fires in a direction you choose. Even if you're the only one hit by these spells, you don't get the shield bonus to your Dex save.
Jaysburn, I guess there is an argument to make that "target only you" requires spell language that actually selects you as a "target" instead of an area. So, splitting "creature target spells" and "area target spells" into two different camps. Not sure if there's any SA or tweet advice on that, but I think reading Basic Rules Chapter 10 Spellcasting I'm inclined to agree with you RAW.
However (and I'm not saying you're saying this, just pointing it out cuz its related), Shield Master does kick in on spells that are capable of targeting multiple creatures but are cast in a way that actually only targets you. Contrast Shield Master ("...against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you.") vs. a Sorcerer's Twinned Spell ("...must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level").
Shield Master's second bonus would not apply to Dexterity saves as a result of Fireball or Ice Knife even if you are the only creature in the affected area.
Chicken_Champ, I think I would agree with that. If you were targeted by Chain Lightning for example, and the caster either chooses or is only capable of targeting you with it, then you would get your shield bonus to your Dex save.
The problem is, the spellcasting rules for "Targets" make it sound like there's a bright line between spells that target creatures, objects, or areas drawn from points of origin. It tells you to read the spell description to figure out which one of the three you're dealing with, and when you read Fireball for example, the only time it uses the word "target" is in relation to creatures, not to the point you have "chosen" or the area that is centered on that point. Fireball is quite very clearly a spell that "targets a point of origin" (it's even provided as an example of an area spell earlier in that chapter, under discussion of "Range") and yet its targets appear to be creatures.
But like I said, I agree with you guys (and with the conclusion of the thread you linked to, although Texas oversstates the premise in that last post by saying "can only effect" instead of "only target") that this is supposed to be for spells like Sacred Flame that clearly target a specific creature and not creatures within an area.
Houligan, it's honestly really hard to say whether Ice Knife would allow you to benefit from Shield Master or not. The spell does target a single creature, and then it explodes. Actually, even if it does hit multiple people in the explosion, it still only targets one. Oddball spell against this feat, that's for sure.
Seems that this feat is another casualty of 5e's oversimplified and casual way of describing things. Chicken_Champs comment about the use of the word target in Fireball is a very good point, but I think we can all agree that it's clear that is not the RAI. I think it should, like Lightning Bolt, say "a creature" and not "a target." Definitely seems to be a mistake.
When it comes to Ice Knife though... that's a tough one.
I think the problem is that there are two different concepts being referenced, both of which are called "Target". One use of Target is to describe where spells have been directed towards spatially (Target-Range). The other use of Target is to describe the creature/object/area subject to the spell's effects (Target-Subject).
You don't need to read all the rules everywhere to come to this conclusion, or even contrast the spellcasting rules with specific spells, features, or feats, the spellcasting rules themselves show this tension between Range, Targets, and Areas of Effect, all of which use the word a little differently
Was Shield Master intended to protect a character when a spell has been launched only at them (Target-Range) or a spell that effects only them (Target-Subject)? We can't really tell, and it doesn't really matter. In the face of the ambiguity we should give it the narrowest possible reading, which is to require both (that the spell target only them as its range, and effect only them as its subject).
You would get the (+2) bonus if you were the only one in the area.
You don't. It follows Twinned Spell logic.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
You would get the (+2) bonus if you were the only one in the area.
You don't. It follows Twinned Spell logic.
Agree that you don't (after Jaysburn pointed it out), but disagree that it follows Twinned Spell's logic. Twinned Spell is much more restricted, since it is limited to spells that cannot target multiple creatures, instead of spells that do not target multiple creatures.
So I’m currently playing a oath of the ancients paladin with the shield master feat. I was able to acquire the arrow catching shield........I don’t know if this has already been asked but what constitutes a ranged attack regarding a spell that would trigger the shield master ability to add my shields +4 to AC against ranged attacks. Do they require to make a attack roll or is any spell that has range greater than touch classed as a ranged attack for the purpose of this ability?
Thanks in advance
I'm not sure what you are talking about "shield master ability to add +4 to AC against ranged attacks." The arrow catching shield let's you add +2 to AC against ranged attacks. The shield master feat lets you add shield bonus to DEX saves.
To answer your question about what is a ranged attack, the attack will say if it is. If you have to "make a ranged weapon attack" or "ranged spell attack," it is a ranged attack.
Shield Master doesn't grant an AC bonus against ranged attacks. It grants a bonus to Dexterity saving throws against spells that target only you, like Disintegrate.
Something is a ranged attack if the rules say it's a ranged attack.
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Sorry I wasn’t clear, the arrow catching shield becomes a +4 shield against ranged attacks and the shield master ability allows me to add the AC of my shield to my dexterity saves. So I either gain a +2 or +4 depending on what is classed as a ranged attack.
For ease Eldridge blast is obviously a ranged attack as it is in the spells description however chain lightning is still a ranged attack but doesn’t require a attack roll so would I gain the bonus ac from the arrow catching shield +4 or would I simply get +2 to my den providing it only targets myself.
Nowhere in the spell Chain Lightning does it say it makes a ranged attack roll - therefore it isn't a ranged attack. It's really that simple.
Spells typically are either attack rolls (melee or ranged will be specified) or saving throws. If they are saving throws then they are not attacks - and consequently they won't trigger the shield's extra +2.
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If a spell or other ability requires a d20 roll vs AC, then it is an attack. If it requires you to make a saving throw, it is not an attack.
There is a very simple answer to your actual question of "when can I add +4 to my Dex saves by combining both of these features?": never.
Your shield bonus is only +4 (with a mundane shield) when a ranged attack roll is being made. Spells/harmful effects requiring a Dex save do not ever involve an attack roll. They will never overlap.
The only time that you will be able to add your shield AC bonus to your Dex saving throw against a spell is if the spell only targets you. Think about it like Twinned Spell Metamagic: if the spell is eligible for a Sorcerer to twin it (and targets your Dex save), then it is eligible for the bonus to your save from Shield Master.
I.e., Fireball never qualifies. You're basically left with Hellish Rebuke, Sacred Flame, and Snare. On paper, this particular bullet from the feat is spectacularly poor. It will be applicable mostly from the "other harmful effects" clause, so pay attention to monsters that have abilities that trigger a Dex save as an added effect of their attacks.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
If the effect says one of the following:
then its a ranged attack that your arrow catching shield will apply to.
The above will never overlap with something that causes a saving throw like chain lightning. Shield Master will always add +2 to your Dexterity save, and never +4.
It is a little weird, that something can cause damage at range, and not be a ranged attack. But its to differentiate weapons / projectiles from area of effect type things.
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Well, there are some spells that kind of overlap. Ice Knife comes to mind... it makes a ranged attack roll against the target (triggering the shield to become a +4), and then afterwards asks them to make a Dexterity saving throw. Even in that situation though, the two effects still don't overlap. The ranged attack made by the spell is a separate event than the saving throw it causes afterwards, and by the time you're making a save the trigger on your shield has already passed.
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Ice knife’s Dex save is in an area - no bonus to the save at all.
You would get the (+2) bonus if you were the only one in the area.
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Ice Knife is a hard one to rule as it does say "The target and each creature within 5 feet of it", but generally speaking that's not true. It's against things that target only you, not hit only you. AoE spells and effects don't actually (typically) target anything but... well, an area. A point in space, as it were.
Fireball can't target a creature even if you fire it directly at them; it targets the space they are in. Lightning Bolt doesn't target a creature, it fires in a direction you choose. Even if you're the only one hit by these spells, you don't get the shield bonus to your Dex save.
Jaysburn, I guess there is an argument to make that "target only you" requires spell language that actually selects you as a "target" instead of an area. So, splitting "creature target spells" and "area target spells" into two different camps. Not sure if there's any SA or tweet advice on that, but I think reading Basic Rules Chapter 10 Spellcasting I'm inclined to agree with you RAW.
However (and I'm not saying you're saying this, just pointing it out cuz its related), Shield Master does kick in on spells that are capable of targeting multiple creatures but are cast in a way that actually only targets you. Contrast Shield Master ("...against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you.") vs. a Sorcerer's Twinned Spell ("...must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level").
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I just found another thread discussing this
And a reddit post
Shield Master's second bonus would not apply to Dexterity saves as a result of Fireball or Ice Knife even if you are the only creature in the affected area.
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Chicken_Champ, I think I would agree with that. If you were targeted by Chain Lightning for example, and the caster either chooses or is only capable of targeting you with it, then you would get your shield bonus to your Dex save.
The problem is, the spellcasting rules for "Targets" make it sound like there's a bright line between spells that target creatures, objects, or areas drawn from points of origin. It tells you to read the spell description to figure out which one of the three you're dealing with, and when you read Fireball for example, the only time it uses the word "target" is in relation to creatures, not to the point you have "chosen" or the area that is centered on that point. Fireball is quite very clearly a spell that "targets a point of origin" (it's even provided as an example of an area spell earlier in that chapter, under discussion of "Range") and yet its targets appear to be creatures.
But like I said, I agree with you guys (and with the conclusion of the thread you linked to, although Texas oversstates the premise in that last post by saying "can only effect" instead of "only target") that this is supposed to be for spells like Sacred Flame that clearly target a specific creature and not creatures within an area.
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Houligan, it's honestly really hard to say whether Ice Knife would allow you to benefit from Shield Master or not. The spell does target a single creature, and then it explodes. Actually, even if it does hit multiple people in the explosion, it still only targets one. Oddball spell against this feat, that's for sure.
Seems that this feat is another casualty of 5e's oversimplified and casual way of describing things. Chicken_Champs comment about the use of the word target in Fireball is a very good point, but I think we can all agree that it's clear that is not the RAI. I think it should, like Lightning Bolt, say "a creature" and not "a target." Definitely seems to be a mistake.
When it comes to Ice Knife though... that's a tough one.
I think the problem is that there are two different concepts being referenced, both of which are called "Target". One use of Target is to describe where spells have been directed towards spatially (Target-Range). The other use of Target is to describe the creature/object/area subject to the spell's effects (Target-Subject).
You don't need to read all the rules everywhere to come to this conclusion, or even contrast the spellcasting rules with specific spells, features, or feats, the spellcasting rules themselves show this tension between Range, Targets, and Areas of Effect, all of which use the word a little differently
Was Shield Master intended to protect a character when a spell has been launched only at them (Target-Range) or a spell that effects only them (Target-Subject)? We can't really tell, and it doesn't really matter. In the face of the ambiguity we should give it the narrowest possible reading, which is to require both (that the spell target only them as its range, and effect only them as its subject).
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You don't. It follows Twinned Spell logic.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Agree that you don't (after Jaysburn pointed it out), but disagree that it follows Twinned Spell's logic. Twinned Spell is much more restricted, since it is limited to spells that cannot target multiple creatures, instead of spells that do not target multiple creatures.
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