A ranged weapon is a weapon that is in the 'ranged weapon' table. The fact that you are making a ranged attack with a weapon does not mean it's a ranged weapon.
The rule is quite simple:
For a weapon in a creature stat block, use whatever the stat block says.
If the weapon is classed as a ranged weapon, use Dex unless some effect specifies otherwise (e.g. magic stone). There are no rules for making a melee attack with a ranged weapon, most likely it's treated as an improvised weapon (while there are no ranged weapons available to PCs that use Strength, giant rocks use Strength).
If the weapon is classed as a melee weapon, even if used at range, use Str unless some effect (including the Finesse weapon property) specifies otherwise.
The rule is simple, but not necessarily well-worded, and you're wrong about what the rule is. The rule is that, unless stated otherwise, you use dexterity for ranged weapon attacks. From the PHB: "The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity."
A ranged weapon attack is an attack made at range with a weapon, not an attack made with a ranged weapon.
The rule is simple, but not necessarily well-worded, and you're wrong about what the rule is. The rule is that, unless stated otherwise, you use dexterity for ranged weapon attacks. From the PHB: "The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity."
A ranged weapon attack is an attack made at range with a weapon, not an attack made with a ranged weapon.
The PHB does not specify what a ranged weapon attack is, and every weapon capable of making a ranged attack in the PHB is either classed as a ranged weapon, or has the thrown property.
The rule is simple, but not necessarily well-worded, and you're wrong about what the rule is. The rule is that, unless stated otherwise, you use dexterity for ranged weapon attacks. From the PHB: "The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity."
A ranged weapon attack is an attack made at range with a weapon, not an attack made with a ranged weapon.
The PHB does not specify what a ranged weapon attack is, and every weapon capable of making a ranged attack in the PHB is either classed as a ranged weapon, or has the thrown property.
That's also incorrect. The PHB says quite plainly what a ranged attack is. The only other distinction is a weapon attack versus a spell attack, and the latter is obviously not relevant here.
And any weapon (anything capable of being thrown, really) can be used to make a ranged attack. This is laid out in the section on improvised weapons (this is also where you'll find the rules regarding making a melee attack with a ranged weapon, which I think you weren't aware of since you said there weren't any).
0. All answers can be specifically overruled by a spell, effect, or feature.
What are you doing?
Melee weapon attack: go to 2
Ranged weapon attack: go to 3
Spell attack: use spellcasting ability.
Are you using a weapon (simple, martial, or otherwise)?
Yes: go to 4
No: STR
Are you using a weapon (simple, martial, or otherwise)?
Yes: go to 5
No: DEX
Does it have the finesse property?
Yes: either STR or DEX
No: STR
Does it have the finesse property?
Yes: either STR or DEX
No: go to 6
Does it have the thrown property?
Yes: STR
No: DEX
This should be accurate 100% of the time, unless someone can find a series of answers and specific rule that disagrees, then I will add a new question.
I don’t think any ranged weapons have the finesse tag (though strength-based longbows could be interesting), so that part of the flowchart isn’t necessary.
A ranged weapon with Finesse isn't something that actually exists, so while it's theoretically true that such a weapon would let you use Strength, that's not a useful branch. [...] Ranged weapons with the Thrown tag (darts, nets) use Dexterity only, not Strength only or choice of Dex/Strength.
A ranged weapon is a weapon that is in the 'ranged weapon' table. The fact that you are making a ranged attack with a weapon does not mean it's a ranged weapon.
The rule is quite simple:
For a weapon in a creature stat block, use whatever the stat block says.
If the weapon is classed as a ranged weapon, use Dex unless some effect specifies otherwise (e.g. magic stone). There are no rules for making a melee attack with a ranged weapon, most likely it's treated as an improvised weapon (while there are no ranged weapons available to PCs that use Strength, giant rocks use Strength).
If the weapon is classed as a melee weapon, even if used at range, use Str unless some effect (including the Finesse weapon property) specifies otherwise.
Melee weapon attacks and ranged weapon attacks can be made by non-weapons and weapons of the other type (melee attack with a bow for example).
Correct.
There are rules for making melee attacks with ranged weapons in improvised weapon rules (they are 1d4+STR). Also see dart.
Ranged weapon attacks (including thrown melee weapons) use DEX. The thrown property is the exception, not the rule. Improvised weapon rules also cover throwing non-thrown weapons (they are 1d4+DEX).
The PHB does not specify what a ranged weapon attack is, and every weapon capable of making a ranged attack in the PHB is either classed as a ranged weapon, or has the thrown property.
Ability Modifier. The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that have the finesse or thrown property break this rule.
The rules explain what the melee, ranged, and attack parts of melee weapon attack and ranged weapon attack mean rather clearly, but unfortunately never really explain the "weapon" part in rules terms. I guess the only thing we have to go by is thousands of examples from monster stat blocks that describe every type of physical/non-magical damaging action as either "melee weapon attack" or "ranged weapon attack." Claws, tails, swords, tree branches, etc are "melee weapon attacks." Thrown rocks, shot spikes, fired arrows, etc are "ranged weapon attacks."
And again, the improvised weapon rules cover everything used as a weapon that is not on the weapon table. Non-throwable weapons don't have the thrown property, so follow the rules for ranged weapon attacks (so DEX).
But throwing things without the thrown tag doesn’t mean you can’t do it, it just means it’s improvised and uses DEX for attack and damage
I don’t think any ranged weapons have the finesse tag (though strength-based longbows could be interesting), so that part of the flowchart isn’t necessary.
Good point.
There is one ranged weapon with the finesse tag - dart.
But that flow chart does over complicate some things, oversimplify others, and get others wrong. For example, it doesn't account for the fact that you might be using Charisma to attack as a Hexblade or Wisdom wielding Shillelagh. A ranged weapon with Finesse isn't something that actually exists, …
Honestly I think that an accurate flow chart would be much more complex then just doing a bullet list roundup of relevant rules.
I deliberately left off class features like monk and hexblade. I just wanted the chart to represent what was in chapters 5 and 9.
As for a ranged weapon with finesse, see above.
Thanks for the feedback, when I get back home I'll edit and repost.
I will admit that I've never noticed that Darts have Finesse before, and I have often lamented the inability to make a Strength-based attacker that relies on the Archery fighting style... complete oversight on my part, if nothing else this thread is finally making that click!
I still maintain from the other thread that the improvised weapon rules are clear that the damage of an improvised weapon is 1d4 with no damage modifier added and that the video interview discussion about improvised weapons with Jeremy Crawford reinforces that and then goes on to describe why it is the case.
As for the flowchart, the biggest glaring mistake I see is the yellow "Can't Use It" bubble.
Levi, yes; using a (dead) smaller creature as an improvised weapon is explicitly one of the examples provided by the Improvised Weapons rules in Chapter 5. I don't see any reason to read that to say that a large creature couldn't wield a medium body in the same way that a medium creature can wield a small body. Whether a medium creature (with sufficient strength) can wield another medium creature would be more up for DM interpretation.
Okay, so it has to be dead before hand. I was just wondering. Our party's Firbolg monk last session got enlarged and wanted to grab a Yuan-ti malison by the tail and start whacking the other enemies with the live Yuan-ti, but he shrunk down before the next round. If he had stayed up, I probably would have let him, but just wanted to check first. Thanks, I didn't know where else to ask this.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
As a DM, I would draw the line between dead body and live enemy more as a question of disadvantage and needing to maintain a grapple, not as a hard obstacle to use. But yes, the Improvised Weapon excerpt does specify "dead goblin," so a DM wouldn't be out of line to say no to using grappled enemies.
I still maintain from the other thread that the improvised weapon rules are clear that the damage of an improvised weapon is 1d4 with no damage modifier added and that the video interview discussion about improvised weapons with Jeremy Crawford reinforces that and then goes on to describe why it is the case.
As for the flowchart, the biggest glaring mistake I see is the yellow "Can't Use It" bubble.
And I still maintain that the rules don't say not to apply modifiers to improvised weapons (unless you can find something I missed). Normal weapons are only described by their base damage the same as improvised weapons (damage modifiers are in the attack rules, not weapon rules). In the interview JC never said not to apply modifiers, he never mentions damage modifiers at all even when talking about regular weapons. And JC has confirmed that improvised weapons add damage modifiers in a tweet (not that he hasn't contradicted himself before, but this time at least he hasn't).
Same opinion about the chart, "can't use it" should be "DEX"
Because every weapon in the game that can make a ranged attack has either an Ammunition or Thrown property (and a Range property associated to it) I assume (my opinion based on RAW) that a weapon lacking these properties cannot make a ranged attack at all since they both "allow" you to make a ranged attack.
Ammunition.You can use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. Thrown.If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. Range.A weapon that can be used to make a ranged attack has a range shown in parentheses after the ammunition or thrown property.
Here is my reasoning for it to be impossible (if those properties are necessary): I think most players trying to use a melee weapon (lacking the properties mentioned above) for a ranged weapon attack will try and ask their DM for the weapon to be at least treated as an improvised weapon with either of the properties mentioned above but if the DM still refuses to let a player have those properties I didn't find anything letting the player make the ranged attack and as such I interpret it as "Unable to Attack at Range".
"Finesse Tag" in the chart actually means: "Finesse weapon property" and "Thrown Tag" actually means:"(either the) Ammunition or the Thrown weapon property" which implies the presence of the "Range weapon property"
Do you think what I have written is right? If not please elaborate and state your reasoning. After recieving feedback I'll also format a list of questions with answers so if a person ever searches such questions on a search engine (eg. Google) the crawlers will show the answer directly without having to dig in various threads.
Don’t build complicated flowcharts off of SAC, it’s a shaky foundation. If SAC gave you the impression that an attack with a longbow against an enemy 5 feet away (an attack within “melee range”) is a melee attack, then there’s your first indication that you’re starting on the wrong foot.
Don’t build complicated flowcharts off of SAC, it’s a shaky foundation. If SAC gave you the impression that an attack with a longbow against an enemy 5 feet away (an attack within “melee range”) is a melee attack, then there’s your first indication that you’re starting on the wrong foot.
Nope, that was at least their third indication that they were off on the wrong foot. The first and second indications were the facts that they were ever even considering a flowchart in the first place; and that they were relying on SAC to be either correct or consistent, let alone both.
Because every weapon in the game that can make a ranged attack has either an Ammunition or Thrown property (and a Range property associated to it) I assume (my opinion based on RAW) that a weapon lacking these properties cannot make a ranged attack at all since they both "allow" you to make a ranged attack.
That is incorrect. A “melee weapon attack” is any melee attack that is not a “spell attack,” including Unarmed Strikes, and picking up a rock and cracking someone over the dome with it.
That is incorrect. Any “weapon attack” automatically uses the associated ability score* modifier for attack rolls. Except attacks made using nets, all other “weapon attacks” also automatically include the associated ability score modifier to damage rolls. Proficiency is irrelevant to ability score modifiers and how they are applied. Proficiency is only required to add your Proficiency bonus to the attack roll. *Almost every “weapon attack” uses either Strength or Dexterity. Attacks made by a Hexblade with their Hex Weapon can use Charisma instead. A Battlesmith can use Intelligence for attacks made using Magic Weapons. Some specific magic items can also require/allow specific scores to attack with them, and at least one magic bow uses both Strength and Dexterity, one for the damage roll, and the other for the attack roll.
You assume incorrectly. Any creature with at least one hand can pick up anything small enough for that creature to to hold and light enough for that creature to move. Anything that can be picked up by a creature can be thrown at another creature or an object as an “Improvised Weapon.”
Sometimes characters don't have their weapons and have to attack with whatever is at hand. An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM's option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
I honestly didn’t even read the rest of your post, I figured I would let you know how many of your premises are incorrect and let you revise the rest.
a "Melee Weapon Attack" is an attack at melee range regardless of weapon, an "Attack with a Melee Weapon" is an attack using a melee weapon regardless of range.
Here is a slightly more revised version that is probably still wrong: a "Melee Weapon Attack" is a melee attack regardless of weapon type, an "Attack with a Melee Weapon" is an attack using a melee weapon regardless of weather the attack was melee or ranged.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
The rule is simple, but not necessarily well-worded, and you're wrong about what the rule is. The rule is that, unless stated otherwise, you use dexterity for ranged weapon attacks. From the PHB: "The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity."
A ranged weapon attack is an attack made at range with a weapon, not an attack made with a ranged weapon.
The PHB does not specify what a ranged weapon attack is, and every weapon capable of making a ranged attack in the PHB is either classed as a ranged weapon, or has the thrown property.
That's also incorrect. The PHB says quite plainly what a ranged attack is. The only other distinction is a weapon attack versus a spell attack, and the latter is obviously not relevant here.
And any weapon (anything capable of being thrown, really) can be used to make a ranged attack. This is laid out in the section on improvised weapons (this is also where you'll find the rules regarding making a melee attack with a ranged weapon, which I think you weren't aware of since you said there weren't any).
I would go with:
0. All answers can be specifically overruled by a spell, effect, or feature.
This should be accurate 100% of the time, unless someone can find a series of answers and specific rule that disagrees, then I will add a new question.
Dart. Everything omitted, I agree with.
Melee weapon attacks and ranged weapon attacks can be made by non-weapons and weapons of the other type (melee attack with a bow for example).
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/combat#AttackRolls
The rules explain what the melee, ranged, and attack parts of melee weapon attack and ranged weapon attack mean rather clearly, but unfortunately never really explain the "weapon" part in rules terms. I guess the only thing we have to go by is thousands of examples from monster stat blocks that describe every type of physical/non-magical damaging action as either "melee weapon attack" or "ranged weapon attack." Claws, tails, swords, tree branches, etc are "melee weapon attacks." Thrown rocks, shot spikes, fired arrows, etc are "ranged weapon attacks."
And again, the improvised weapon rules cover everything used as a weapon that is not on the weapon table. Non-throwable weapons don't have the thrown property, so follow the rules for ranged weapon attacks (so DEX).
Good point.
There is one ranged weapon with the finesse tag - dart.
I deliberately left off class features like monk and hexblade. I just wanted the chart to represent what was in chapters 5 and 9.
As for a ranged weapon with finesse, see above.
Thanks for the feedback, when I get back home I'll edit and repost.
I will admit that I've never noticed that Darts have Finesse before, and I have often lamented the inability to make a Strength-based attacker that relies on the Archery fighting style... complete oversight on my part, if nothing else this thread is finally making that click!
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I still maintain from the other thread that the improvised weapon rules are clear that the damage of an improvised weapon is 1d4 with no damage modifier added and that the video interview discussion about improvised weapons with Jeremy Crawford reinforces that and then goes on to describe why it is the case.
As for the flowchart, the biggest glaring mistake I see is the yellow "Can't Use It" bubble.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Can a large or huge creature use another Medium creature as an improvised weapon?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Levi, yes; using a (dead) smaller creature as an improvised weapon is explicitly one of the examples provided by the Improvised Weapons rules in Chapter 5. I don't see any reason to read that to say that a large creature couldn't wield a medium body in the same way that a medium creature can wield a small body. Whether a medium creature (with sufficient strength) can wield another medium creature would be more up for DM interpretation.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Okay, so it has to be dead before hand. I was just wondering. Our party's Firbolg monk last session got enlarged and wanted to grab a Yuan-ti malison by the tail and start whacking the other enemies with the live Yuan-ti, but he shrunk down before the next round. If he had stayed up, I probably would have let him, but just wanted to check first. Thanks, I didn't know where else to ask this.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
As a DM, I would draw the line between dead body and live enemy more as a question of disadvantage and needing to maintain a grapple, not as a hard obstacle to use. But yes, the Improvised Weapon excerpt does specify "dead goblin," so a DM wouldn't be out of line to say no to using grappled enemies.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I would at a minimum give Disadvantage to any attempt to use a live enemy as a weapon.
And I still maintain that the rules don't say not to apply modifiers to improvised weapons (unless you can find something I missed). Normal weapons are only described by their base damage the same as improvised weapons (damage modifiers are in the attack rules, not weapon rules). In the interview JC never said not to apply modifiers, he never mentions damage modifiers at all even when talking about regular weapons. And JC has confirmed that improvised weapons add damage modifiers in a tweet (not that he hasn't contradicted himself before, but this time at least he hasn't).
Same opinion about the chart, "can't use it" should be "DEX"
Ok I tried to gather everything in the thread here.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/combat#MakinganAttack
STR default for Melee Weapon Attacks and DEX is default for Ranged Weapon Attacks
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA130
a "Melee Weapon Attack" is an attack at melee range regardless of weapon, an "Attack with a Melee Weapon" is an attack using a melee weapon regardless of range.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/when-attacking-with-a-improvised-melee-weapon-do-you-add-strenght-modifier-to-the-damage/
when attacking with any weapon you add the related mod to the damage roll (you still need to be proficient with improvised weapons to actually add the related mod to the attack roll).
Because every weapon in the game that can make a ranged attack has either an Ammunition or Thrown property (and a Range property associated to it) I assume (my opinion based on RAW) that a weapon lacking these properties cannot make a ranged attack at all since they both "allow" you to make a ranged attack.
Here is my reasoning for it to be impossible (if those properties are necessary):
I think most players trying to use a melee weapon (lacking the properties mentioned above) for a ranged weapon attack will try and ask their DM for the weapon to be at least treated as an improvised weapon with either of the properties mentioned above but if the DM still refuses to let a player have those properties I didn't find anything letting the player make the ranged attack and as such I interpret it as "Unable to Attack at Range".
Here is my flow chart for the situation:
Link to the actual flowchart thingy: https://lucid.app/lucidchart/invitations/accept/inv_e520b8f2-5a51-47a0-9911-7998ad7c6f9e (yes an account is required unfortunately).
"Finesse Tag" in the chart actually means: "Finesse weapon property" and "Thrown Tag" actually means:"(either the) Ammunition or the Thrown weapon property" which implies the presence of the "Range weapon property"
Do you think what I have written is right? If not please elaborate and state your reasoning.
After recieving feedback I'll also format a list of questions with answers so if a person ever searches such questions on a search engine (eg. Google) the crawlers will show the answer directly without having to dig in various threads.
Clear evidence that improvised thrown weapons exist:
Don’t build complicated flowcharts off of SAC, it’s a shaky foundation. If SAC gave you the impression that an attack with a longbow against an enemy 5 feet away (an attack within “melee range”) is a melee attack, then there’s your first indication that you’re starting on the wrong foot.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Nope, that was at least their third indication that they were off on the wrong foot. The first and second indications were the facts that they were ever even considering a flowchart in the first place; and that they were relying on SAC to be either correct or consistent, let alone both.
*Almost every “weapon attack” uses either Strength or Dexterity.
Attacks made by a Hexblade with their Hex Weapon can use Charisma instead.
A Battlesmith can use Intelligence for attacks made using Magic Weapons.
Some specific magic items can also require/allow specific scores to attack with them, and at least one magic bow uses both Strength and Dexterity, one for the damage roll, and the other for the attack roll.
I honestly didn’t even read the rest of your post, I figured I would let you know how many of your premises are incorrect and let you revise the rest.
I hope that helps.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
It was my bad by including "range" not SAC's:
Here is a slightly more revised version that is probably still wrong: a "Melee Weapon Attack" is a melee attack regardless of weapon type, an "Attack with a Melee Weapon" is an attack using a melee weapon regardless of weather the attack was melee or ranged.