So this was just a thought I had. I know when multiclassing spellcasters your spell slots are determined by your total level. ie a wizard16 and sorcerer 4 would count as a level 20 and therefore have a 9th level spell slot. Normally you are limited to the spells available based on class level, but this brings up an interesting thing with wizards. What if your character came across a spell scroll or had someone create a spell scroll for a 9th level spell for them. Technically you have a 9th level spell slot that you can use/prepare, so would you still be able to learn it even though technically your wizard class isn't at the 9th level point? tried this out with a character sheet setting wizard 16 and sorcerer 4. it wouldnt let me add 9th level spells, so technically no? Thoughts and opinions?
While you would indeed have a 9th level slot to use, you would not have a 9th level preparation slot. 16th level wizards can only prepare up to 8th level slots, and as such could not copy above that either.
PHB Pg 114, Your spellbook splat, 2nd paragraph
“Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.”
PHB pg 164, spellcasting, 2nd paragraph
“Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1 st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As a 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.
DMG pg 200, spell scroll, 2nd paragraph.
“If the spell is on your class's spell list but of a higher level than you can normally cast, you must make an ability check using your spellcasting ability to determine whether you cast it successfully. The DC equals 10 + spell's level. On a failed check, the spell disappears from the scroll with no other effect.”
you would be able to attempt to cast the 9th level spell scroll if it contained a spell on one of your lists, with an appropriate spellcasting ability check of 19 in this case.
While you would indeed have a 9th level slot to use, you would not have a 9th level preparation slot. 16th level wizards can only prepare up to 8th level slots, and as such could not copy above that either.
Sort of. Multiclassing has a few funny quirks. Because the Wizard and Sorcerer are both full casters, they retain the spell slot progression as if they were purely one or the other. So the character would have a 9th level spell slot to use.
But that doesn't mean they know any 9th level spells. Because the spells they are capable of learning are dependent on each class separately, while the spell slots are dependent on both classes together. So the Wizard 16/Sorcerer 4 character in question would have 1 9th level, 1 8th level, 2 7th level, 2 6th level, etc spell slots. But they'd be limited in what spells they can learn to Sorcerer spells of only 1st or 2nd level and Wizard spells up to 8th level.
The character in question could upcast any lower level spell to 9th level using their 9th level slot, but they don't know any of the spells that are 9th level.
Bringing this back to the OP's question about a 9th level spell scroll, the answer is no, the character would not be able to learn the 9th level spell from the scroll, because it is above the level either of their classes could learn, in spite of having a slot capable of casting it.
While you would indeed have a 9th level slot to use, you would not have a 9th level preparation slot. 16th level wizards can only prepare up to 8th level slots, and as such could not copy above that either.
Sort of. Multiclassing has a few funny quirks. Because the Wizard and Sorcerer are both full casters, they retain the spell slot progression as if they were purely one or the other. So the character would have a 9th level spell slot to use.
[Sic]
Bringing this back to the OP's question about a 9th level spell scroll, the answer is no, the character would not be able to learn the 9th level spell from the scroll, because it is above the level either of their classes could learn, in spite of having a slot capable of casting it.
It helps to stop thinking about the Spell Slot itself as being "capable of casting it," any more than you would think of an Action or a Bonus Action being "capable of casting it." Spell slots are resources that are expended in the way that a character's Spellcasting class feature (or other class feature) allows, and in no other way. If you gave a Fighter a spell slot from a homebrewed feat, or a magic item, or whatever... that Spell Slot would not be "capable of casting" anything, because a Spell Slot is just a resource count, not an ability. Same way that if a non-Monk had a ki point (maybe a racial bonus or weird homebrew feat), they wouldn't be able to spend it to do anything unless they had a Martial Arts ability or something similar providing how that point can be spent.
Spell Slots
Regardless of how many spells a caster knows or prepares, he or she can cast only a limited number of spells before resting. Manipulating the fabric of magic and channeling its energy into even a simple spell is physically and mentally taxing, and higher- level spells are even more so. Thus, each spellcasting class's description (except that of the warlock) includes a table showing how many spell slots of each spell level a character can use at each character level. For example, the 3rd-level wizard Umara has four 1st-level spell slots and two 2nd-level slots.
When a character casts a spell, he or she expends a slot of that spell's level or higher, effectively "filling" a slot with the spell. You can think of a spell slot as a groove of a certain size — small for a 1st-level slot, larger for a spell of higher level. A 1st-level spell fits into a slot of any size, but a 9th-level spell fits only in a 9th-level slot. So when Umara casts magic missile, a 1st-level spell, she spends one of her four 1st-level slots and has three remaining.
Finishing a long rest restores any expended spell slots (see chapter 8 for the rules on resting).
Some characters and monsters have special abilities that let them cast spells without using spell slots. For example, a monk who follows the Way of the Four Elements, a warlock who chooses certain eldritch invocations, and a pit fiend from the Nine Hells can all cast spells in such a way.
Now here's the thing: now that I've gone and split the hairs, and made clear that your Spellcasting class feature is what controls what spells you can cast and how, not what Spell Slots you do or don't have... the way that these Spellcasting features were written actually doesn't accomplish what Chapter 6: Multiclassing promises that they'll do.
You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook
...
If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower-level spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you can use the enhanced effect, even though you don't have any spells of that higher level.
Reading that, it's plain as day what RAI is: the Wizard or Sorcerer or whatever class description should somewhere say "you know this many spells of this level or lower," and you should pay attention to that, not whatever Spell Slots you do or don't have from multiclassing. The problem is... poor editing has resulted in those individual class descriptions referring to your Spell Slots, not to your class table or anything else, to determine what level spells you know and can cast. Take the wizard:
Preparing and Casting Spells
You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
...
YOUR SPELLBOOK
When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
So you can 1) prepare spells that are in your spellbook, if they are of a level that fits in a Spell Slot you have. And 2) you can write a spell in your spellbook, if it is of a level you can prepare. Those two rules beg each other's question endlessly, without either one coming out and saying "You cannot [prepare/add to your spellbook] a spell of higher level than the level shown on your class table." According to Chapter 6 we should do whatever the Wizard's class features tell us, and according to the Wizard's spellcasting ability, we should just look at Spell Slots. Huh.
It's a problem of loose writing that other classes share. Take the Sorcerer:
Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher
You know two 1st-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer spell list.
The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 3rd level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.
Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Again, Chapter 6 led us to believe that the Sorcerer would have some sort of language internally limiting the level of spell that the Sorcerer can learn and cast, but all the Sorcerer actually gives us is 'look at your Spell Slots.' Not, "look at the Spell Slots provided in the class table, ignoring any other Spell Slots you may have from multiclassing or another non-Sorcerer source," just.... look at your Spell Slots.
So in summary:
Spell Slots don't give the ability to cast a spell, Spellcasting class abilities do
Chapter 6 makes it clear that RAI, multiclass spell slots aren't intended to drive what spells your character knows/prepares/can cast, and you are instead supposed to find that answer within your individual class description
But RAW, the actual class descriptions and Spellcasting abilities didn't get that memo, and just tell you to look at your actual spell slots, not "the slots provided in your [X] class table"
The RAW is so plainly not RAI here that you should just go with RAI, and not attempt to learn/prepare/cast anything that's higher level than the spell slot provided in your [X] class table.
It helps to stop thinking about the Spell Slot itself as being "capable of casting it," any more than you would think of an Action or a Bonus Action being "capable of casting it." Spell slots are resources that are expended in the way that a character's Spellcasting class feature (or other class feature) allows, and in no other way. If you gave a Fighter a spell slot from a homebrewed feat, or a magic item, or whatever... that Spell Slot would not be "capable of casting" anything, because a Spell Slot is just a resource count, not an ability. Same way that if a non-Monk had a ki point (maybe a racial bonus or weird homebrew feat), they wouldn't be able to spend it to do anything unless they had a Martial Arts ability or something similar providing how that point can be spent.
Spell Slots
Regardless of how many spells a caster knows or prepares, he or she can cast only a limited number of spells before resting. Manipulating the fabric of magic and channeling its energy into even a simple spell is physically and mentally taxing, and higher- level spells are even more so. Thus, each spellcasting class's description (except that of the warlock) includes a table showing how many spell slots of each spell level a character can use at each character level. For example, the 3rd-level wizard Umara has four 1st-level spell slots and two 2nd-level slots.
When a character casts a spell, he or she expends a slot of that spell's level or higher, effectively "filling" a slot with the spell. You can think of a spell slot as a groove of a certain size — small for a 1st-level slot, larger for a spell of higher level. A 1st-level spell fits into a slot of any size, but a 9th-level spell fits only in a 9th-level slot. So when Umara casts magic missile, a 1st-level spell, she spends one of her four 1st-level slots and has three remaining.
Finishing a long rest restores any expended spell slots (see chapter 8 for the rules on resting).
Some characters and monsters have special abilities that let them cast spells without using spell slots. For example, a monk who follows the Way of the Four Elements, a warlock who chooses certain eldritch invocations, and a pit fiend from the Nine Hells can all cast spells in such a way.
Now here's the thing: now that I've gone and split the hairs, and made clear that your Spellcasting class feature is what controls what spells you can cast and how, not what Spell Slots you do or don't have... the way that these Spellcasting features were written actually doesn't accomplish what Chapter 6: Multiclassing promises that they'll do.
You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook
...
If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower-level spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you can use the enhanced effect, even though you don't have any spells of that higher level.
Reading that, it's plain as day what RAI is: the Wizard or Sorcerer or whatever class description should somewhere say "you know this many spells of this level or lower," and you should pay attention to that, not whatever Spell Slots you do or don't have from multiclassing. The problem is... poor editing has resulted in those individual class descriptions referring to your Spell Slots, not to your class table or anything else, to determine what level spells you know and can cast. Take the wizard:
Preparing and Casting Spells
You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
...
YOUR SPELLBOOK
When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
So you can 1) prepare spells that are in your spellbook, if they are of a level that fits in a Spell Slot you have. And 2) you can write a spell in your spellbook, if it is of a level you can prepare. Those two rules beg each other's question endlessly, without either one coming out and saying "You cannot [prepare/add to your spellbook] a spell of higher level than the level shown on your class table." According to Chapter 6 we should do whatever the Wizard's class features tell us, and according to the Wizard's spellcasting ability, we should just look at Spell Slots. Huh.
It's a problem of loose writing that other classes share. Take the Sorcerer:
Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher
You know two 1st-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer spell list.
The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 3rd level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.
Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Again, Chapter 6 led us to believe that the Sorcerer would have some sort of language internally limiting the level of spell that the Sorcerer can learn and cast, but all the Sorcerer actually gives us is 'look at your Spell Slots.' Not, "look at the Spell Slots provided in the class table, ignoring any other Spell Slots you may have from multiclassing or another non-Sorcerer source," just.... look at your Spell Slots.
So in summary:
Spell Slots don't give the ability to cast a spell, Spellcasting class abilities do
Chapter 6 makes it clear that RAI, multiclass spell slots aren't intended to drive what spells your character knows/prepares/can cast, and you are instead supposed to find that answer within your individual class description
But RAW, the actual class descriptions and Spellcasting abilities didn't get that memo, and just tell you to look at your actual spell slots, not "the slots provided in your [X] class table"
The RAW is so plainly not RAI here that you should just go with RAI, and not attempt to learn/prepare/cast anything that's higher level than the spell slot provided in your [X] class table.
The two rules: “1) prepare spells that are in your spellbook, if they are of a level that fits in a Spell Slot you have. And 2) you can write a spell in your spellbook, if it is of a level you can prepare.” Are separate And specific limitations that are required to be met. A character with 16 levels of wizard and 1 level of cleric, while having the spells slots to use to cast 8th or lower spells with up to a 9th level slot, does not change the fact that they cannot prepare a 9th level spell.
This is true for 3 reasons. Reason one, if the wizard took the level in cleric first, the. 16 levels of wizard, in that final 16th level it would still be limited to choosing 2 level 8 spells or lower to freely add to its book upon gaining the wizard class level.
reason two, since the single class of 16 wizard a deciding factor in what they can prepare e size of the multiclass rules, they would still be limited by their class spellcasting chart.
Reason 3, the wizard can’t prepare anything that’s not a spell they’ve either scribed from copying into their spellbook through their spellbook guidance or a free spell from leveling up.
counter example. If a player took 10 levels in wizard and 1 in cleric, the. Received a 9th level spell slot as an adventure reward, their preperations Would still be limited to wizard spells of 5th level or higher.
I think that Chicken_Champ's failure to intrepret RAW comes from failing to understand how a single classed member of a class is granted spell slots and spell selections. Yes, some class spellcasting features tell you that you select spells based on your spell slots. But you have to consider that each class's spellcasting feature explains slots and refers you to the table before the selections are explained. In order to select spells for a sorcerer, the table must explicitly be referred to, because the rules tell you to.
On the other hand, a multiclass caster is told to select their spells before the multi-class slots are explained. This order is important and I think intentional because the rules aren't asking you to act on information that you don't have. The rules can be followed as a linear (or in this case, branching) document, not a loop. You choose your spells from your individual classes based only on the information in those individual spellcasting features, then you go back and read about what slots are available to you to cast those spells as a multiclass caster. The reason for this is clear if you understand the intention and how the text leads to that intention: the rule writers really want you to select your spells as if you only had access to one spellcasting feature at a time, just like the rules say they do.
Wizard is a bit special because of the spellbook wording (and I too had the thought, what if I scribe a higher level spell, now can I prepare and cast it using the higher level slot?), but I think I can draw it all together to a clear RAW negative.
Under Muticlassing:
You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were single-classed.
That last bit is the important bit. That means if you are a Wizard-3/Cleric-3 you can prepare wizard spells as if you were a level 3 wizard. In other words, as if you had 4 1st and 2 2nd level slots, because the spells a wizard can prepare "must be of a level for which you have spell slots" - as if you were a single-class wizard.
Furthermore, you could not in fact scribe a level 3 wizard spell into your book because, under "Your Spellbook":
When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare...
Since the wiz-3/cleric-3 cannot prepare a 3rd level wizard spell, neither can he even scribe it in the book in the first place. Since it can't get into his spellbook, it is then obvious that he also can't prepare it, though it is the fact that he cannot prepare it that prevents it from being scribed. Around and around we go, but there is nothing here that conflicts the RAW and all roads lead to: there's no loophole for wizards. :D
Adding two cents, prepared spells can be interpreted differently to what I keep hearing over and over in here. RAW if I have the regular Wiz-3/Cleric-3 that is the repeated example and I assume I have a Int Bonus of +3 for simplicitys sake. I can prepare 6 spells there is nothing in here specifying the level of the prepared spells. The example listed for the wizard mentions level 1 and 2 spells as that is all that character (a single class Wizard) has access to but there is nothing in the example that states that this is limited to these levels.
"You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so. choose a number of wizard spells from your spell book equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
The example tells you what you can do, just like the rule. The rule doesn't need to tell you what you cannot do, because it already told you what you can do. A third level wizard can prepare first and second level spells. The omission of the levels of spells that a 3rd level wizard cannot prepare is not a tacit allowance.
The example tells you what you can do, just like the rule. The rule doesn't need to tell you what you cannot do, because it already told you what you can do. A third level wizard can prepare first and second level spells. The omission of the levels of spells that a 3rd level wizard cannot prepare is not a tacit allowance.
Indeed. If the rules had to list everything you cannot do, the PHB by itself would be an entire encyclopedia series....
You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
For example, if you’re a 3rd-level wizard, you have four 1st-level and two 2nd-level spell slots. With an Intelligence of 16, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination, chosen from your spellbook. If you prepare the 1st-level spell magic missile, you can cast it using a 1st-level or a 2nd-level slot. Casting the spell doesn’t remove it from your list of prepared spells.
You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.
The rules clearly spell out how it works.
A Wizard 3 Cleric 3 with an intelligence and wisdom of 16 can prepare 6 Wizard spells of 1st or 2nd level and 6 Cleric spells of 1st or 2nd level. They may not prepare spells of 3rd level in either class even though they have access to 3rd level spell slots. The only way to use them is by higher level casting.
The example tells you what you can do, just like the rule. The rule doesn't need to tell you what you cannot do, because it already told you what you can do. A third level wizard can prepare first and second level spells. The omission of the levels of spells that a 3rd level wizard cannot prepare is not a tacit allowance.
If some hypothetical feat allowed a 1st level wizard to have a 3rd level spell slot, then a 1st level wizard could indeed learn and prepare 3rd level spells.
Why? Because the rules for wizards is that they can learn and add and prepares spells of a level that they have spell slots for.
Your 'example is a rule' argument fails the sniff test. Why? Because examples are examples, rules are rules, and flavor text is flavor text. Flavor text isn't rules and examples aren't rules. Rules are.
Now, can we derive 'intent' from the example? Yes. Yes we can. Most everyone can see the intent of how this should work clear as day. But the way 'the rules' is actually written and the way the devs 'want it to work' might be a little out of alignment. That's where DMs come in. Trust in your DM to make the rational decision to stop this malarkey. And if they don't? Trust they have their reasons.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The example tells you what you can do, just like the rule. The rule doesn't need to tell you what you cannot do, because it already told you what you can do. A third level wizard can prepare first and second level spells. The omission of the levels of spells that a 3rd level wizard cannot prepare is not a tacit allowance.
If some hypothetical feat allowed a 1st level wizard to have a 3rd level spell slot, then a 1st level wizard could indeed learn and prepare 3rd level spells.
Why? Because the rules for wizards is that they can learn and add and prepares spells of a level that they have spell slots for.
Your 'example is a rule' argument fails the sniff test. Why? Because examples are examples, rules are rules, and flavor text is flavor text. Flavor text isn't rules and examples aren't rules. Rules are.
Now, can we derive 'intent' from the example? Yes. Yes we can. Most everyone can see the intent of how this should work clear as day. But the way 'the rules' is actually written and the way the devs 'want it to work' might be a little out of alignment. That's where DMs come in. Trust in your DM to make the rational decision to stop this malarkey. And if they don't? Trust they have their reasons.
Except you are incorrect.
Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table.
And guess what? At level 1 a Wizard does not have 3rd level spell slots shown on the Wizard table. Shocking isn't it?
The example tells you what you can do, just like the rule. The rule doesn't need to tell you what you cannot do, because it already told you what you can do. A third level wizard can prepare first and second level spells. The omission of the levels of spells that a 3rd level wizard cannot prepare is not a tacit allowance.
If some hypothetical feat allowed a 1st level wizard to have a 3rd level spell slot, then a 1st level wizard could indeed learn and prepare 3rd level spells.
Why? Because the rules for wizards is that they can learn and add and prepares spells of a level that they have spell slots for.
Your 'example is a rule' argument fails the sniff test. Why? Because examples are examples, rules are rules, and flavor text is flavor text. Flavor text isn't rules and examples aren't rules. Rules are.
Now, can we derive 'intent' from the example? Yes. Yes we can. Most everyone can see the intent of how this should work clear as day. But the way 'the rules' is actually written and the way the devs 'want it to work' might be a little out of alignment. That's where DMs come in. Trust in your DM to make the rational decision to stop this malarkey. And if they don't? Trust they have their reasons.
Nice try, but your hypothetical is even more poorly contrived than any of the rules that it is trying to test (see #16). Not only that, it doesn't test the premise that I was rebutting:
In general, rules (and this example) tell you what you can do; omission from the list of available options is not a tacit allowance in this game.
The example tells you what you can do, just like the rule. The rule doesn't need to tell you what you cannot do, because it already told you what you can do. A third level wizard can prepare first and second level spells. The omission of the levels of spells that a 3rd level wizard cannot prepare is not a tacit allowance.
If some hypothetical feat allowed a 1st level wizard to have a 3rd level spell slot, then a 1st level wizard could indeed learn and prepare 3rd level spells.
Why? Because the rules for wizards is that they can learn and add and prepares spells of a level that they have spell slots for.
Your 'example is a rule' argument fails the sniff test. Why? Because examples are examples, rules are rules, and flavor text is flavor text. Flavor text isn't rules and examples aren't rules. Rules are.
Now, can we derive 'intent' from the example? Yes. Yes we can. Most everyone can see the intent of how this should work clear as day. But the way 'the rules' is actually written and the way the devs 'want it to work' might be a little out of alignment. That's where DMs come in. Trust in your DM to make the rational decision to stop this malarkey. And if they don't? Trust they have their reasons.
Except you are incorrect.
Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table.
And guess what? At level 1 a Wizard does not have 3rd level spell slots shown on the Wizard table. Shocking isn't it?
I get the point you were aiming for, unfortunately we were talking about wizards adding spells to their spellbook. Not the two new freebie spells that are automatically added when they level up.
You'll want to reference, instead, this:
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
and this:
You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
So if a feat gave him a 3rd level spell slot, he would absolutely be able to go down to his local mage guild and spend the party's funds to buy himself access to the fireball spell, copy it into his spellbook, and cast that bad boy. 100% RAW. (excepting of course this feat doesn't exist.)
But multiclassing does exist, even if it is an optional rule. And multiclassing can give you a different pool of spell slots. There is no difference, except the collective will of 99% of players and DMs not wanting this interaction to happen so no one allows it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
In general, rules (and this example) tell you what you can do; omission from the list of available options is not a tacit allowance in this game.
I don't think the authors of the game would agree that the design principles of Dungeons and Dragons 5e is "You can do NOTHING unless we explicitly list it as an option".
Instead, according to them, themselves, it is:
Playing D&D is an exercise in collaborative creation. You and your friends create epic stories filled with tension and memorable drama. You create silly in-jokes that make you laugh years later. The dice will be cruel to you, but you will soldier on. Your collective creativity will build stories that you will tell again and again, ranging from the utterly absurd to the stuff of legend.
...
The second thing you need is a lively imagination or, more importantly, the willingness to use whatever imagination you have. You don’t need to be a master storyteller or a brilliant artist. You just need to aspire to create, to have the courage of someone who is willing to build something and share it with others.
...
The first characters and adventures you create will probably be a collection of clichés. That’s true of everyone, from the greatest Dungeon Masters in history on down. Accept this reality and move on to create the second character or adventure, which will be better, and then the third, which will be better still. Repeat that over the course of time, and soon you’ll be able to create anything, from a character’s background story to an epic world of fantasy adventure.
...
Above all else, D&D is yours. The friendships you make around the table will be unique to you. The adventures you embark on, the characters you create, the memories you make—these will be yours. D&D is your personal corner of the universe, a place where you have free reign to do as you wish.
Go forth now. Read the rules of the game and the story of its worlds, but always remember that you are the one who brings them to life. They are nothing without the spark of life that you give them.
In fact, the very first rule, so important it goes before ALL rules, is often referred to as Rule 0.
The D&D rules help you and the other players have a good time, but the rules aren't in charge. You're the DM, and you are in charge of the game.
So, no. No the rules are not a complete and final and exhaustive list of the only things you can ever do in the game. They're not designed to be that. This isn't a board game. No one in practice even uses them that way.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You left out the very first sentence about preparing spells.
The Wizard table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your wizard spells of 1st level and higher.
So, you are still restricted by the wIzard table for all of your wizard preparations. Your poorly contrived hypothetical feat runs into a logical problem: either it would be so detailed as to actually except the written rules, or it would have to follow them and therefore not work as you wish.
So this was just a thought I had. I know when multiclassing spellcasters your spell slots are determined by your total level. ie a wizard16 and sorcerer 4 would count as a level 20 and therefore have a 9th level spell slot. Normally you are limited to the spells available based on class level, but this brings up an interesting thing with wizards. What if your character came across a spell scroll or had someone create a spell scroll for a 9th level spell for them. Technically you have a 9th level spell slot that you can use/prepare, so would you still be able to learn it even though technically your wizard class isn't at the 9th level point? tried this out with a character sheet setting wizard 16 and sorcerer 4. it wouldnt let me add 9th level spells, so technically no? Thoughts and opinions?
No point of having levels if you can do stuff restricted to higher levels.
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While you would indeed have a 9th level slot to use, you would not have a 9th level preparation slot. 16th level wizards can only prepare up to 8th level slots, and as such could not copy above that either.
PHB Pg 114, Your spellbook splat, 2nd paragraph
“Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.”
PHB pg 164, spellcasting, 2nd paragraph
“Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1 st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As a 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can
be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.
DMG pg 200, spell scroll, 2nd paragraph.
“If the spell is on your class's spell list but of a higher level than you can normally cast, you must make an ability check using your spellcasting ability to determine whether you cast it successfully. The DC equals 10 + spell's level. On a failed check, the spell disappears from the scroll with no other effect.”
you would be able to attempt to cast the 9th level spell scroll if it contained a spell on one of your lists, with an appropriate spellcasting ability check of 19 in this case.
Sort of. Multiclassing has a few funny quirks. Because the Wizard and Sorcerer are both full casters, they retain the spell slot progression as if they were purely one or the other. So the character would have a 9th level spell slot to use.
But that doesn't mean they know any 9th level spells. Because the spells they are capable of learning are dependent on each class separately, while the spell slots are dependent on both classes together. So the Wizard 16/Sorcerer 4 character in question would have 1 9th level, 1 8th level, 2 7th level, 2 6th level, etc spell slots. But they'd be limited in what spells they can learn to Sorcerer spells of only 1st or 2nd level and Wizard spells up to 8th level.
The character in question could upcast any lower level spell to 9th level using their 9th level slot, but they don't know any of the spells that are 9th level.
Bringing this back to the OP's question about a 9th level spell scroll, the answer is no, the character would not be able to learn the 9th level spell from the scroll, because it is above the level either of their classes could learn, in spite of having a slot capable of casting it.
That’s exactly what Bobbybaker said.
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It helps to stop thinking about the Spell Slot itself as being "capable of casting it," any more than you would think of an Action or a Bonus Action being "capable of casting it." Spell slots are resources that are expended in the way that a character's Spellcasting class feature (or other class feature) allows, and in no other way. If you gave a Fighter a spell slot from a homebrewed feat, or a magic item, or whatever... that Spell Slot would not be "capable of casting" anything, because a Spell Slot is just a resource count, not an ability. Same way that if a non-Monk had a ki point (maybe a racial bonus or weird homebrew feat), they wouldn't be able to spend it to do anything unless they had a Martial Arts ability or something similar providing how that point can be spent.
Now here's the thing: now that I've gone and split the hairs, and made clear that your Spellcasting class feature is what controls what spells you can cast and how, not what Spell Slots you do or don't have... the way that these Spellcasting features were written actually doesn't accomplish what Chapter 6: Multiclassing promises that they'll do.
Reading that, it's plain as day what RAI is: the Wizard or Sorcerer or whatever class description should somewhere say "you know this many spells of this level or lower," and you should pay attention to that, not whatever Spell Slots you do or don't have from multiclassing. The problem is... poor editing has resulted in those individual class descriptions referring to your Spell Slots, not to your class table or anything else, to determine what level spells you know and can cast. Take the wizard:
So you can 1) prepare spells that are in your spellbook, if they are of a level that fits in a Spell Slot you have. And 2) you can write a spell in your spellbook, if it is of a level you can prepare. Those two rules beg each other's question endlessly, without either one coming out and saying "You cannot [prepare/add to your spellbook] a spell of higher level than the level shown on your class table." According to Chapter 6 we should do whatever the Wizard's class features tell us, and according to the Wizard's spellcasting ability, we should just look at Spell Slots. Huh.
It's a problem of loose writing that other classes share. Take the Sorcerer:
Again, Chapter 6 led us to believe that the Sorcerer would have some sort of language internally limiting the level of spell that the Sorcerer can learn and cast, but all the Sorcerer actually gives us is 'look at your Spell Slots.' Not, "look at the Spell Slots provided in the class table, ignoring any other Spell Slots you may have from multiclassing or another non-Sorcerer source," just.... look at your Spell Slots.
So in summary:
The RAW is so plainly not RAI here that you should just go with RAI, and not attempt to learn/prepare/cast anything that's higher level than the spell slot provided in your [X] class table.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The two rules: “1) prepare spells that are in your spellbook, if they are of a level that fits in a Spell Slot you have. And 2) you can write a spell in your spellbook, if it is of a level you can prepare.” Are separate And specific limitations that are required to be met. A character with 16 levels of wizard and 1 level of cleric, while having the spells slots to use to cast 8th or lower spells with up to a 9th level slot, does not change the fact that they cannot prepare a 9th level spell.
This is true for 3 reasons. Reason one, if the wizard took the level in cleric first, the. 16 levels of wizard, in that final 16th level it would still be limited to choosing 2 level 8 spells or lower to freely add to its book upon gaining the wizard class level.
reason two, since the single class of 16 wizard a deciding factor in what they can prepare e size of the multiclass rules, they would still be limited by their class spellcasting chart.
Reason 3, the wizard can’t prepare anything that’s not a spell they’ve either scribed from copying into their spellbook through their spellbook guidance or a free spell from leveling up.
counter example. If a player took 10 levels in wizard and 1 in cleric, the. Received a 9th level spell slot as an adventure reward, their preperations Would still be limited to wizard spells of 5th level or higher.
I think that Chicken_Champ's failure to intrepret RAW comes from failing to understand how a single classed member of a class is granted spell slots and spell selections. Yes, some class spellcasting features tell you that you select spells based on your spell slots. But you have to consider that each class's spellcasting feature explains slots and refers you to the table before the selections are explained. In order to select spells for a sorcerer, the table must explicitly be referred to, because the rules tell you to.
On the other hand, a multiclass caster is told to select their spells before the multi-class slots are explained. This order is important and I think intentional because the rules aren't asking you to act on information that you don't have. The rules can be followed as a linear (or in this case, branching) document, not a loop. You choose your spells from your individual classes based only on the information in those individual spellcasting features, then you go back and read about what slots are available to you to cast those spells as a multiclass caster. The reason for this is clear if you understand the intention and how the text leads to that intention: the rule writers really want you to select your spells as if you only had access to one spellcasting feature at a time, just like the rules say they do.
Wizard is a bit special because of the spellbook wording (and I too had the thought, what if I scribe a higher level spell, now can I prepare and cast it using the higher level slot?), but I think I can draw it all together to a clear RAW negative.
Under Muticlassing:
That last bit is the important bit. That means if you are a Wizard-3/Cleric-3 you can prepare wizard spells as if you were a level 3 wizard. In other words, as if you had 4 1st and 2 2nd level slots, because the spells a wizard can prepare "must be of a level for which you have spell slots" - as if you were a single-class wizard.
Furthermore, you could not in fact scribe a level 3 wizard spell into your book because, under "Your Spellbook":
Since the wiz-3/cleric-3 cannot prepare a 3rd level wizard spell, neither can he even scribe it in the book in the first place. Since it can't get into his spellbook, it is then obvious that he also can't prepare it, though it is the fact that he cannot prepare it that prevents it from being scribed. Around and around we go, but there is nothing here that conflicts the RAW and all roads lead to: there's no loophole for wizards. :D
Adding two cents, prepared spells can be interpreted differently to what I keep hearing over and over in here. RAW if I have the regular Wiz-3/Cleric-3 that is the repeated example and I assume I have a Int Bonus of +3 for simplicitys sake. I can prepare 6 spells there is nothing in here specifying the level of the prepared spells. The example listed for the wizard mentions level 1 and 2 spells as that is all that character (a single class Wizard) has access to but there is nothing in the example that states that this is limited to these levels.
"You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so. choose a number of wizard spells from your spell book equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
The example tells you what you can do, just like the rule. The rule doesn't need to tell you what you cannot do, because it already told you what you can do. A third level wizard can prepare first and second level spells. The omission of the levels of spells that a 3rd level wizard cannot prepare is not a tacit allowance.
Indeed. If the rules had to list everything you cannot do, the PHB by itself would be an entire encyclopedia series....
The full text of the section on how Wizards prepare spells:
The section on multiclass spellcasters:
The rules clearly spell out how it works.
A Wizard 3 Cleric 3 with an intelligence and wisdom of 16 can prepare 6 Wizard spells of 1st or 2nd level and 6 Cleric spells of 1st or 2nd level. They may not prepare spells of 3rd level in either class even though they have access to 3rd level spell slots. The only way to use them is by higher level casting.
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If you can not prepare it you can not inscribe it into your spell book.
If its not in your book you can not cast it, even if you have a spell slot for it.
But you can upcast any spell you already have prepared/know, such as Sleep.
Its not really hard.
If some hypothetical feat allowed a 1st level wizard to have a 3rd level spell slot, then a 1st level wizard could indeed learn and prepare 3rd level spells.
Why? Because the rules for wizards is that they can learn and add and prepares spells of a level that they have spell slots for.
Your 'example is a rule' argument fails the sniff test. Why? Because examples are examples, rules are rules, and flavor text is flavor text. Flavor text isn't rules and examples aren't rules. Rules are.
Now, can we derive 'intent' from the example? Yes. Yes we can. Most everyone can see the intent of how this should work clear as day. But the way 'the rules' is actually written and the way the devs 'want it to work' might be a little out of alignment. That's where DMs come in. Trust in your DM to make the rational decision to stop this malarkey. And if they don't? Trust they have their reasons.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Except you are incorrect.
Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table.
And guess what? At level 1 a Wizard does not have 3rd level spell slots shown on the Wizard table. Shocking isn't it?
Nice try, but your hypothetical is even more poorly contrived than any of the rules that it is trying to test (see #16). Not only that, it doesn't test the premise that I was rebutting:
In general, rules (and this example) tell you what you can do; omission from the list of available options is not a tacit allowance in this game.
I get the point you were aiming for, unfortunately we were talking about wizards adding spells to their spellbook. Not the two new freebie spells that are automatically added when they level up.
You'll want to reference, instead, this:
and this:
So if a feat gave him a 3rd level spell slot, he would absolutely be able to go down to his local mage guild and spend the party's funds to buy himself access to the fireball spell, copy it into his spellbook, and cast that bad boy. 100% RAW. (excepting of course this feat doesn't exist.)
But multiclassing does exist, even if it is an optional rule. And multiclassing can give you a different pool of spell slots. There is no difference, except the collective will of 99% of players and DMs not wanting this interaction to happen so no one allows it.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I don't think the authors of the game would agree that the design principles of Dungeons and Dragons 5e is "You can do NOTHING unless we explicitly list it as an option".
Instead, according to them, themselves, it is:
In fact, the very first rule, so important it goes before ALL rules, is often referred to as Rule 0.
So, no. No the rules are not a complete and final and exhaustive list of the only things you can ever do in the game. They're not designed to be that. This isn't a board game. No one in practice even uses them that way.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You left out the very first sentence about preparing spells.
So, you are still restricted by the wIzard table for all of your wizard preparations. Your poorly contrived hypothetical feat runs into a logical problem: either it would be so detailed as to actually except the written rules, or it would have to follow them and therefore not work as you wish.