1) Why would no longer being a creature matter? True polymorph can change anything into pretty much anything. There is no 'creature only' limiter on what it starts as or finishes as, or since the true poly's can be nested, passes through on the way. If a creature is true polymorphed into a corpse does that end the spell on it?
Yes, but it's no longer the spell that would've changed them into that. It's a bit like polymorphing something that's already been true polymorphed. For as long as they are that new thing, the old thing doesn't matter.
2) Saying they are no longer the creature they were turned into is like saying someone's corpse is no longer them and thus if raised either fails to come back or comes back as someone else.
No, in D&D rules, if you die, you're no longer a creature. Your body is an object.
3) There is nothing ANYWHERE that says that if a spell ends due to the target no longer being a valid target (which seems to be the argument you are using), the effects still remain.
It may not say that, but it's pretty obvious. If I turn a creature into a piece of metal, and then melt that metal and scatter the molten metal around, you're no longer going to be able to turn the object back into a creature.
4) The argument is that the effects are only removable by dispel. Death is not dispel. Being a corpse is not dispel. Being re-polymorphed into a corpse (or bookcase or kumquat or any other inanimate object) does not end the spell. If only dispel ends the spell then only dispel ends the spell.
Being a corpse is no longer being a creature, which invalidates the "Creature into creature/Object into Creature" sections. If they're no longer the thing that they were turned into, the spell is null.
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"3) There is nothing ANYWHERE that says that if a spell ends due to the target no longer being a valid target (which seems to be the argument you are using), the effects still remain.
It may not say that, but it's pretty obvious. If I turn a creature into a piece of metal, and then melt that metal and scatter the molten metal around, you're no longer going to be able to turn the object back into a creature."
idk. I would say melting down the metal would drop it to 0 hp.
DISCLAIMER: I have not been following the thread. pardon if I am repeating/ or this has already been proved wrong
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
To be fair to everyone, as far as I'm aware there's no general rule that a spell ends if the target ceases to be valid. Targeting only needs to be valid at the time of casting. If I cast moonbeam at max range and take a step back, the moonbeam is still there even though the target is no longer valid. If I cast hold person and the target is subsequently polymorphed into a beast, they are still paralyzed.
GoodBovine... yes but we are more concerned with what happens after the hour of concentration is up and the effect becomes permanent. The thread now seems to be debating what happens when the target dies. If it can still be dispelled.
Jeremy Crawford also mentions some spells that end but there effects persist and can't be dispelled. Like Cure Wounds which heals hp and then the spell ends but the effects persist and can't be dispelled. Seems to me like he was trying to explain what happens with true polymorph with the exception that it can be dispelled.
I think it is left vague so that some DMs can rule the corpse can't be dispelled back into it's original form... and others will rule it can.
It still makes the true polymorph permanent until dispelled. Some spells or magical effects are meant to be permanent only until they are dispelled.
Also don't forget there are spells like wish that can affect things depending on how you word the wish and what the DM allows.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Except for when he says after the hour the only way to end true polymorph is to dispel it. Period. He wanted to clarify that you become the new creature/object until dispelled.
But as for effects ending when the spell ends there are a number of spells where this is not so. Find Familiar is instantaneous but the familiar hangs around after the spell ends. The effect from Cure Wounds doesn't end when the spell does and can't be dispelled afterward. Cure Wounds ends but you keep the hp and the hp cannot be dispelled away.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Except for when he says after the hour the only way to end true polymorph is to dispel it. Period. He wanted to clarify that you become the new creature/object until dispelled.
But as for effects ending when the spell ends there are a number of spells where this is not so. Find Familiar is instantaneous but the familiar hangs around after the spell ends. The effect from Cure Wounds doesn't end when the spell does and can't be dispelled afterward. Cure Wounds ends but you keep the hp and the hp cannot be dispelled away.
If you true polymorph a creature into an object and the hour passes then it is that object until dispelled. If the the object was a wooden chair how do you cast raise dead on a wooden chair... the target is no longer valid.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Actually earlier on he states that the 'drop to 0' rule was not there and was specifically put in to both spells after original publication. When he subsequently discusses it, he makes no distinction between polymorph and true polymorph or true polymorph pre-1 hour mark and after.
That strongly suggests that his opinion on how the spell works is non-authoritative, because someone changed the way the spell works that invalidated his opinion.
Why would it be the top layer polymorph? Doesn't Dispel Magic dispel all spells affecting a target... or at least have the chance to do so depending on rolls?
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Why would it be the top layer polymorph? Doesn't Dispel Magic dispel all spells affecting a target... or at least have the chance to do so depending on rolls?
As far as I know it can only dispel 1 target of multiple target spells like Bless and Slow but in cases where you target a creature or object with Dispel Magic you can potentially dispel all effects.
Another reason I don't think the 1st true polymorph spell is suppressed by the 2nd is that you can't stack the same magical spells upon a single target... you can't cast Enlarge/Reduce to growth from 6 feet to 12 feet and then again to 24 feet. The more potent spell prevails. Isn't that how it's supposed to work?
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Among the reasons for this is the pretty obvious concern than otherwise landing true polymorph + an hour concentration equals autowin. True polymorph the proverbial (non-shapechanging) dragon into a slug, put it in a container and concentrate for an hour, then squish the slug.
It's a 9th level spell, why not let it be an auto-win?
Among the reasons for this is the pretty obvious concern than otherwise landing true polymorph + an hour concentration equals autowin. True polymorph the proverbial (non-shapechanging) dragon into a slug, put it in a container and concentrate for an hour, then squish the slug.
It's a 9th level spell, why not let it be an auto-win?
Why even have levels over 16? Why even have rules?
9th level spells are intended to be powerful, not all-powerful.
Actually they are meant to be all-powerful. There is no official level of spell higher than 9th.
Take Wish and what you can potentially do with it.
You have it set in your mind I think that you can't true polymorph a dragon into a slug, concentrate for an hour and then squish it... but you can, that is exactly how it works.
Take this excerpt from the Disintegrate spell: A disintegrated creature and everything it is wearing and carrying, except magic items, are reduced to a pile of fine gray dust.The creature can be restored to life only by means of a true resurrection or a wish spell.
The red part sounds so deadly and final, and it's only a 6th level spell. But the blue part can undo even this because both options are 9th level... the all-powerful level.
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Among the reasons for this is the pretty obvious concern than otherwise landing true polymorph + an hour concentration equals autowin. True polymorph the proverbial (non-shapechanging) dragon into a slug, put it in a container and concentrate for an hour, then squish the slug.
It's a 9th level spell, why not let it be an auto-win?
Why even have levels over 16? Why even have rules?
9th level spells are intended to be powerful, not all-powerful.
It isn't all-powerful, it provides a saving throw; and a whole hour for the target's allies to sort things out!
The GM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance; the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish.
Among the reasons for this is the pretty obvious concern than otherwise landing true polymorph + an hour concentration equals autowin. True polymorph the proverbial (non-shapechanging) dragon into a slug, put it in a container and concentrate for an hour, then squish the slug.
It's a 9th level spell, why not let it be an auto-win?
Why even have levels over 16? Why even have rules?
9th level spells are intended to be powerful, not all-powerful.
It isn't all-powerful, it provides a saving throw; and a whole hour for the target's allies to sort things out!
I wasn't the one that suggested letting the 9th-level spell be an auto-win.
As a DM does anyone have any advice that could help with something I'm trying to figure out???
Say something casts True Polymorph on itself to become something else, it waits the full hour so the change is permanent, now I'm worried about Dispel Magic being used in this situation, the thing wants to remain in its new Form, what would be something I could do that would keep the creature from reverting back to its original form??? I know as a DM I could simply say Dispel doesn't work but I have some players who are sticklers for the wording of a spell lol
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A DM of 3 years a Player of 4 I enjoy world building and have many Homebrew Campaigns and several One shots, I like to consider myself a pretty laid back DM as far as some I've played under, I'm fair and enjoy running games for my friends and strangers, I enjoy teaching and helping players, I don't hold back when it comes to my worlds and monsters.
As a DM does anyone have any advice that could help with something I'm trying to figure out???
Say something casts True Polymorph on itself to become something else, it waits the full hour so the change is permanent, now I'm worried about Dispel Magic being used in this situation, the thing wants to remain in its new Form, what would be something I could do that would keep the creature from reverting back to its original form??? I know as a DM I could simply say Dispel doesn't work but I have some players who are sticklers for the wording of a spell lol
Homebrewing a special magic item could work.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Yes, but it's no longer the spell that would've changed them into that. It's a bit like polymorphing something that's already been true polymorphed. For as long as they are that new thing, the old thing doesn't matter.
No, in D&D rules, if you die, you're no longer a creature. Your body is an object.
It may not say that, but it's pretty obvious. If I turn a creature into a piece of metal, and then melt that metal and scatter the molten metal around, you're no longer going to be able to turn the object back into a creature.
Being a corpse is no longer being a creature, which invalidates the "Creature into creature/Object into Creature" sections. If they're no longer the thing that they were turned into, the spell is null.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
It may not say that, but it's pretty obvious. If I turn a creature into a piece of metal, and then melt that metal and scatter the molten metal around, you're no longer going to be able to turn the object back into a creature."
idk. I would say melting down the metal would drop it to 0 hp.
DISCLAIMER: I have not been following the thread. pardon if I am repeating/ or this has already been proved wrong
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
To be fair to everyone, as far as I'm aware there's no general rule that a spell ends if the target ceases to be valid. Targeting only needs to be valid at the time of casting. If I cast moonbeam at max range and take a step back, the moonbeam is still there even though the target is no longer valid. If I cast hold person and the target is subsequently polymorphed into a beast, they are still paralyzed.
GoodBovine... yes but we are more concerned with what happens after the hour of concentration is up and the effect becomes permanent. The thread now seems to be debating what happens when the target dies. If it can still be dispelled.
Jeremy Crawford also mentions some spells that end but there effects persist and can't be dispelled. Like Cure Wounds which heals hp and then the spell ends but the effects persist and can't be dispelled. Seems to me like he was trying to explain what happens with true polymorph with the exception that it can be dispelled.
I think it is left vague so that some DMs can rule the corpse can't be dispelled back into it's original form... and others will rule it can.
It still makes the true polymorph permanent until dispelled. Some spells or magical effects are meant to be permanent only until they are dispelled.
Also don't forget there are spells like wish that can affect things depending on how you word the wish and what the DM allows.
Except for when he says after the hour the only way to end true polymorph is to dispel it. Period. He wanted to clarify that you become the new creature/object until dispelled.
But as for effects ending when the spell ends there are a number of spells where this is not so. Find Familiar is instantaneous but the familiar hangs around after the spell ends. The effect from Cure Wounds doesn't end when the spell does and can't be dispelled afterward. Cure Wounds ends but you keep the hp and the hp cannot be dispelled away.
And don’t forget bout every damage spell ever.
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If you true polymorph a creature into an object and the hour passes then it is that object until dispelled. If the the object was a wooden chair how do you cast raise dead on a wooden chair... the target is no longer valid.
That strongly suggests that his opinion on how the spell works is non-authoritative, because someone changed the way the spell works that invalidated his opinion.
Why would it be the top layer polymorph? Doesn't Dispel Magic dispel all spells affecting a target... or at least have the chance to do so depending on rolls?
Yes.
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As far as I know it can only dispel 1 target of multiple target spells like Bless and Slow but in cases where you target a creature or object with Dispel Magic you can potentially dispel all effects.
Another reason I don't think the 1st true polymorph spell is suppressed by the 2nd is that you can't stack the same magical spells upon a single target... you can't cast Enlarge/Reduce to growth from 6 feet to 12 feet and then again to 24 feet. The more potent spell prevails. Isn't that how it's supposed to work?
It's a 9th level spell, why not let it be an auto-win?
Why even have levels over 16? Why even have rules?
9th level spells are intended to be powerful, not all-powerful.
Actually they are meant to be all-powerful. There is no official level of spell higher than 9th.
Take Wish and what you can potentially do with it.
You have it set in your mind I think that you can't true polymorph a dragon into a slug, concentrate for an hour and then squish it... but you can, that is exactly how it works.
Take this excerpt from the Disintegrate spell:
A disintegrated creature and everything it is wearing and carrying, except magic items, are reduced to a pile of fine gray dust. The creature can be restored to life only by means of a true resurrection or a wish spell.
The red part sounds so deadly and final, and it's only a 6th level spell. But the blue part can undo even this because both options are 9th level... the all-powerful level.
It isn't all-powerful, it provides a saving throw; and a whole hour for the target's allies to sort things out!
Not all-powerful.
I wasn't the one that suggested letting the 9th-level spell be an auto-win.
Not to mention if you cast true poly on an ancient red dragon and it fails, it can just choose to succeed with a legendary resist anyway.
As a DM does anyone have any advice that could help with something I'm trying to figure out???
Say something casts True Polymorph on itself to become something else, it waits the full hour so the change is permanent, now I'm worried about Dispel Magic being used in this situation, the thing wants to remain in its new Form, what would be something I could do that would keep the creature from reverting back to its original form???
I know as a DM I could simply say Dispel doesn't work but I have some players who are sticklers for the wording of a spell lol
A DM of 3 years a Player of 4 I enjoy world building and have many Homebrew Campaigns and several One shots, I like to consider myself a pretty laid back DM as far as some I've played under, I'm fair and enjoy running games for my friends and strangers, I enjoy teaching and helping players, I don't hold back when it comes to my worlds and monsters.
Homebrewing a special magic item could work.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms