Even if the spell doesn’t end, the whole “magical poo” thing still doesn’t stand because you cannot polymorph poo, only creatures. All of that stuff you are worrying about after the goldfish dies becomes irrelevant, it’s just a dead mundane goldfish at that point. Redirect it, and it is still a goldfish unless it is Dispelled.
The spell would end because it no longer has a target - it was cast on a creature, then that creature died while polymorphed, so I guess there's no more spell, either? There's no more magic dead goldfish or magic dead poo, it's just normal dead goldfish because the spell ended and isn't making the goldfish magical anymore.
Rereading the spell, the interpretation that makes sense to me is to just read the sentences in order. First, the spell says "The transformation lasts for the Duration, or until the target drops to 0 Hit Points or dies. " Great, that's how long the spell lasts! Except... "If you concentrate on this spell for the full Duration, transformation lasts until it is dispelled." OK, so this sentence supercedes the previous one, if you successfully concentrate on it for an hour the transformation lasts until dispelled, period. Previous ways of getting rid of it (dropping concentration, dropping to 0 hitpoints, running out of time) no longer apply.
The spell would end because it no longer has a target - it was cast on a creature, then that creature died while polymorphed, so I guess there's no more spell, either? There's no more magic dead goldfish or magic dead poo, it's just normal dead goldfish because the spell ended and isn't making the goldfish magical anymore.
Rereading the spell, the interpretation that makes sense to me is to just read the sentences in order. First, the spell says "The transformation lasts for the Duration, or until the target drops to 0 Hit Points or dies. " Great, that's how long the spell lasts! Except... "If you concentrate on this spell for the full Duration, transformation lasts until it is dispelled." OK, so this sentence supercedes the previous one, if you successfully concentrate on it for an hour the transformation lasts until dispelled, period. Previous ways of getting rid of it (dropping concentration, dropping to 0 hitpoints, running out of time) no longer apply.
And then AFTER that, the spell says "This spell has no effect on a shapechanger, or a creature with 0 hit points." This still supercedes the previous, if we go by your example... Which rounds back around to me being correct in my interpretation, if for the wrong reason.
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ftl is correct... if you concentrate on the spell for the full hour then the only way to end it is with dispel magic.
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— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
For the first hour it can revert back to it's original form if the spell ends, due to any number of things that would end the spell.
After the first hour it is permanent until dispelled.
Isn't that how the spell works? Doesn't it say that right in the spell?
I think the original poster got confused with some of the temporary ways to end the spell in the first hour and tried to carry them over to after the hour was up.
How do you think the spell works?
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
The normal effect of making a spell permanent is to replace the duration (in this case, 1 hour(c)) with a duration of permanent, but not change any other features of the spell. If the intent was that the effect became Instant after an hour, there are ways it could have been phrased that would clearly specify that (not to say that 5e doesn't have a lot of sloppy writing).
After 1 hour the form is permanent and can only be dispelled, not ended by dropping to 0 hp or dying.
I would think that during the first hour the effect would be suspended while in the anti-magic field, but after the hour nothing would happen.
The way the spell is worded is a little sloppy but not enough to misunderstand what conditions end the spell. There is a separate sentence that contains the wording for the spell ending within the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hp or dies. These are the conditions by which the spell will end if within the hour long duration. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled. This is a another separate sentence that occurs after the one preceding it and supercedes the conditions by which the spell now ends.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
The spell would end because it no longer has a target - it was cast on a creature, then that creature died while polymorphed, so I guess there's no more spell, either? There's no more magic dead goldfish or magic dead poo, it's just normal dead goldfish because the spell ended and isn't making the goldfish magical anymore.
Rereading the spell, the interpretation that makes sense to me is to just read the sentences in order. First, the spell says "The transformation lasts for the Duration, or until the target drops to 0 Hit Points or dies. " Great, that's how long the spell lasts! Except... "If you concentrate on this spell for the full Duration, transformation lasts until it is dispelled." OK, so this sentence supercedes the previous one, if you successfully concentrate on it for an hour the transformation lasts until dispelled, period. Previous ways of getting rid of it (dropping concentration, dropping to 0 hitpoints, running out of time) no longer apply.
And then AFTER that, the spell says "This spell has no effect on a shapechanger, or a creature with 0 hit points." This still supercedes the previous, if we go by your example... Which rounds back around to me being correct in my interpretation, if for the wrong reason.
I interpret that as being the first casting. The spell having no effect on a shapechanger obviously is referring to the first casting of the spell. It appears in the same sentence as the "or a creature with 0 hit points" so I also assume that this is meant to only apply at first casting, not be taken into consideration after the hour is up.
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And then AFTER that, the spell says "This spell has no effect on a shapechanger, or a creature with 0 hit points." This still supercedes the previous, if we go by your example... Which rounds back around to me being correct in my interpretation, if for the wrong reason.
I interpret that as being the first casting. The spell having no effect on a shapechanger obviously is referring to the first casting of the spell. It appears in the same sentence as the "or a creature with 0 hit points" so I also assume that this is meant to only apply at first casting, not be taken into consideration after the hour is up.
Curious what your take is on the situation if the target is killed while polymorphed. You seem to be going by the interpretation that they do not change back. So how do you reconcile this with the spell still running? Is the corpse still a polymorhed target that can be dispelled?
No. In my interpretation, if they die, they stay in the same body as when they died. Their body is an object, they're no longer a creature. Sure, the spell may have turned them into a different creature or just into a creature, but when you die, you're not a creature anymore.
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Someone also wondered what would happen if an undead created by the spell went into an anti-magic field and the game creators said that nothing would happen. The undead would still be undead as the spell that created them was no longer active.
Dropping to 0 hp or dying is not similar to dispelling, they are vastly different. It's only a termination condition for the first hour, after that the spell is permanent and can only be ended by being dispelled (as the spell clearly says). Who said anything about it being a duration?
There are some things that an anti-magic field does not affect and even some things that dispel magic doesn't affect. Can you cast dispel magic on an undead to cause it to stop being an animated corpse? I think having the anti-magic field suppress the effect of true polymorph any time during the first hour but do nothing after the hour is up is reasonable.
If you are using Xanathar's to point out that I am right... well, I won't argue with that.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
No matter how many times I read through the spell it seems to suggest to me that if you manage to concentrate on the spell for an hour then it is permanent until dispelled.
This fits with both RAW and RAI, and is supported by one of the game designers.
The alternative goes against what is already written into the spell and seems contradictory. A spell doesn't continue to target all throughout it's duration and in this case after the hour is up you are no longer concentrating on it.
I guess when it comes right down to it when the spell says it can only be dispelled I tend to go with that.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
It is there to be dispelled. That's the only way to dispel it, to be there to dispel. It's there, you dispel it.
???
What is your question again? Is it there to be dispelled? Yes, it's there and you dispel it. You dispel it if it's there. If it's there you dispel it. Dispel it there if you can.
I don't understand. I am saying the only way to dispel it after the hour is up is to dispel it.
And as previously mentioned after it's dead it is no longer a creature and there are no active spells or effects present to dispel or revert from. All this is on the condition of the hour passing and it becoming permanent, if the hour has not passed then it would revert, as the spell says.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
True Poly persists through anti magic field and can only be reverted by being dispelled. Kinda weird. It's an awesome spell and can create a lot of weird scenarios way up in tier 4. Combine that with simlacrum and you can have another "you" that obeys your commands as a sidekick dragon after a true poly.
Pretty sure they added "until dispelled" thing to give DM's the ability to drop characters out from a whole party of dragons flying around. The spell becomes permanent at the end of the hour, period. They are that creature or whatever they are turned into no matter what except for that one specific instance in which a level 9 spell has dispel magic cast and succeed. Drop to 0, they are dead, turn into a chair then burned into nothingness, same, no reverting. Pretty OP spell for sure, and awesome!
After the hour the only way to end the spell is to dispel it.
The effects that end the spell before the hour still end it before the hour, but after the hour is up then only dispel ends the true polymorph.
I'm not sure what you are getting at or what it is that you want to accomplish. If the target is dead, who cares or what does it matter if you end the true polymorph. Changing one corpse into another corpse hardly as any effect except to reveal that some magic was at play (maybe a role-playing reason?) but won't change the target being dead.
If any corpse is true resurrected then it comes back to life. A creature that was permanently true polymorphed would come back as the creature it was true polymorphed into, you still need to dispel it to revert it back into it's original form.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
After the hour the only way to end the spell is to dispel it.
'Dispel' is not limited to dispel magic; it's any effect that terminates ongoing spells. That includes dispel magic, lesser/greater restoration (where applicable), remove curse (where applicable), any creature powers noted as ending spells, and any special termination conditions given for the spell (such as being reduced to 0 hp or dying). Antimagic Field does not end the spell, but it does suppress it.
Pretty sure they added "until dispelled" thing to give DM's the ability to drop characters out from a whole party of dragons flying around. The spell becomes permanent at the end of the hour, period. They are that creature or whatever they are turned into no matter what except for that one specific instance in which a level 9 spell has dispel magic cast and succeed. Drop to 0, they are dead, turn into a chair then burned into nothingness, same, no reverting. Pretty OP spell for sure, and awesome!
Uh huh. The caster has no control over the victim, so why would it not be an out for the caster? But you are avoiding the question. If dispel works, then there is still a spell there to dispel. If the spell only ends with dispel, then why would the spell be gone if the body is transformed by death or further transformed by fire? Again, whether it is living or dead should make no difference if dispel is the only way. If dispel is the only way to end the spell then death, destruction, etc do not end the spell because they are not dispel.
After the hour the only way to end the spell is to dispel it.
'Dispel' is not limited to dispel magic; it's any effect that terminates ongoing spells. That includes dispel magic, lesser/greater restoration (where applicable), remove curse (where applicable), any creature powers noted as ending spells, and any special termination conditions given for the spell (such as being reduced to 0 hp or dying). Antimagic Field does not end the spell, but it does suppress it.
It's the only caveat in the spell. It specifically states the spell becomes permanent and lasts until it's dispelled. True rez, comes back as the polymorphed form. Drop to 0, it dies. Anti magic field, suppresses magic but does not dispel it so therefore it does nothing. The only thing that changes it is the dispel after one hour, period. They discuss that in the vids too. Specific beats general and the spell is very specific about being dispelled is that being the only thing that reverts it from being permanent. It would be like if you had a character that had reincarnation cast on it. If you cast greater restoration, remove curse, anti magic field, dispel magic on the character, they do not revert to their original form as they are permanently the new race. This is the same except they added until dispelled at the end. Other than that, permanent means just that.
Suppression does not end the spell. It suppresses the effects. The spell is still there so that condition is still fulfilled. Who are 'they' and which vids? Specific beats general but antimagic field has its own specific. Reincarnation, like healing, raises, animate dead or create undead is one and done. There is nothing ongoing that can be dispelled, unlike as with True Polymorph. Dispel being there is a non-trivial 'except.'
The ones I listed above from Crawford. Specifically says anti magic field does nothing as the polymorphed creature is that creature now and cannot be suppressed. The only thing that effects it is it being dispelled. Other than that, you are that thing.
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Even if the spell doesn’t end, the whole “magical poo” thing still doesn’t stand because you cannot polymorph poo, only creatures. All of that stuff you are worrying about after the goldfish dies becomes irrelevant, it’s just a dead mundane goldfish at that point. Redirect it, and it is still a goldfish unless it is Dispelled.
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The spell would end because it no longer has a target - it was cast on a creature, then that creature died while polymorphed, so I guess there's no more spell, either? There's no more magic dead goldfish or magic dead poo, it's just normal dead goldfish because the spell ended and isn't making the goldfish magical anymore.
Rereading the spell, the interpretation that makes sense to me is to just read the sentences in order. First, the spell says "The transformation lasts for the Duration, or until the target drops to 0 Hit Points or dies. " Great, that's how long the spell lasts! Except... "If you concentrate on this spell for the full Duration, transformation lasts until it is dispelled." OK, so this sentence supercedes the previous one, if you successfully concentrate on it for an hour the transformation lasts until dispelled, period. Previous ways of getting rid of it (dropping concentration, dropping to 0 hitpoints, running out of time) no longer apply.
And then AFTER that, the spell says "This spell has no effect on a shapechanger, or a creature with 0 hit points." This still supercedes the previous, if we go by your example... Which rounds back around to me being correct in my interpretation, if for the wrong reason.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
ftl is correct... if you concentrate on the spell for the full hour then the only way to end it is with dispel magic.
For the first hour it can revert back to it's original form if the spell ends, due to any number of things that would end the spell.
After the first hour it is permanent until dispelled.
Isn't that how the spell works? Doesn't it say that right in the spell?
I think the original poster got confused with some of the temporary ways to end the spell in the first hour and tried to carry them over to after the hour was up.
How do you think the spell works?
The normal effect of making a spell permanent is to replace the duration (in this case, 1 hour(c)) with a duration of permanent, but not change any other features of the spell. If the intent was that the effect became Instant after an hour, there are ways it could have been phrased that would clearly specify that (not to say that 5e doesn't have a lot of sloppy writing).
After 1 hour the form is permanent and can only be dispelled, not ended by dropping to 0 hp or dying.
I would think that during the first hour the effect would be suspended while in the anti-magic field, but after the hour nothing would happen.
The way the spell is worded is a little sloppy but not enough to misunderstand what conditions end the spell. There is a separate sentence that contains the wording for the spell ending within the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hp or dies. These are the conditions by which the spell will end if within the hour long duration. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled. This is a another separate sentence that occurs after the one preceding it and supercedes the conditions by which the spell now ends.
Dropping to 0 hp or dying is similar to dispelling. It's a special termination condition, not a separate duration.
Clearly not true. An anti-magic field suppresses ongoing magical effects, and if it can be dispelled there's an ongoing magical effect.
I interpret that as being the first casting. The spell having no effect on a shapechanger obviously is referring to the first casting of the spell. It appears in the same sentence as the "or a creature with 0 hit points" so I also assume that this is meant to only apply at first casting, not be taken into consideration after the hour is up.
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No. In my interpretation, if they die, they stay in the same body as when they died. Their body is an object, they're no longer a creature. Sure, the spell may have turned them into a different creature or just into a creature, but when you die, you're not a creature anymore.
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Someone also wondered what would happen if an undead created by the spell went into an anti-magic field and the game creators said that nothing would happen. The undead would still be undead as the spell that created them was no longer active.
Dropping to 0 hp or dying is not similar to dispelling, they are vastly different. It's only a termination condition for the first hour, after that the spell is permanent and can only be ended by being dispelled (as the spell clearly says). Who said anything about it being a duration?
There are some things that an anti-magic field does not affect and even some things that dispel magic doesn't affect. Can you cast dispel magic on an undead to cause it to stop being an animated corpse? I think having the anti-magic field suppress the effect of true polymorph any time during the first hour but do nothing after the hour is up is reasonable.
If you are using Xanathar's to point out that I am right... well, I won't argue with that.
Of the 2 game designers... crawford says you revert if you reach 0 hp... but mearls says after the initial hour it can only be dispelled
I usually side with crawford because I think mearls gets so many wrong... but this time he got one right.
Less than hour = 0 hp reverts.
After the hour = can only be dispelled.
No matter how many times I read through the spell it seems to suggest to me that if you manage to concentrate on the spell for an hour then it is permanent until dispelled.
This fits with both RAW and RAI, and is supported by one of the game designers.
The alternative goes against what is already written into the spell and seems contradictory. A spell doesn't continue to target all throughout it's duration and in this case after the hour is up you are no longer concentrating on it.
I guess when it comes right down to it when the spell says it can only be dispelled I tend to go with that.
It is there to be dispelled. That's the only way to dispel it, to be there to dispel. It's there, you dispel it.
???
What is your question again? Is it there to be dispelled? Yes, it's there and you dispel it. You dispel it if it's there. If it's there you dispel it. Dispel it there if you can.
I don't understand. I am saying the only way to dispel it after the hour is up is to dispel it.
And as previously mentioned after it's dead it is no longer a creature and there are no active spells or effects present to dispel or revert from. All this is on the condition of the hour passing and it becoming permanent, if the hour has not passed then it would revert, as the spell says.
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True Poly persists through anti magic field and can only be reverted by being dispelled. Kinda weird. It's an awesome spell and can create a lot of weird scenarios way up in tier 4. Combine that with simlacrum and you can have another "you" that obeys your commands as a sidekick dragon after a true poly.
Pretty sure they added "until dispelled" thing to give DM's the ability to drop characters out from a whole party of dragons flying around. The spell becomes permanent at the end of the hour, period. They are that creature or whatever they are turned into no matter what except for that one specific instance in which a level 9 spell has dispel magic cast and succeed. Drop to 0, they are dead, turn into a chair then burned into nothingness, same, no reverting. Pretty OP spell for sure, and awesome!
After the hour the only way to end the spell is to dispel it.
The effects that end the spell before the hour still end it before the hour, but after the hour is up then only dispel ends the true polymorph.
I'm not sure what you are getting at or what it is that you want to accomplish. If the target is dead, who cares or what does it matter if you end the true polymorph. Changing one corpse into another corpse hardly as any effect except to reveal that some magic was at play (maybe a role-playing reason?) but won't change the target being dead.
If any corpse is true resurrected then it comes back to life. A creature that was permanently true polymorphed would come back as the creature it was true polymorphed into, you still need to dispel it to revert it back into it's original form.
'Dispel' is not limited to dispel magic; it's any effect that terminates ongoing spells. That includes dispel magic, lesser/greater restoration (where applicable), remove curse (where applicable), any creature powers noted as ending spells, and any special termination conditions given for the spell (such as being reduced to 0 hp or dying). Antimagic Field does not end the spell, but it does suppress it.
It's the only caveat in the spell. It specifically states the spell becomes permanent and lasts until it's dispelled. True rez, comes back as the polymorphed form. Drop to 0, it dies. Anti magic field, suppresses magic but does not dispel it so therefore it does nothing. The only thing that changes it is the dispel after one hour, period. They discuss that in the vids too. Specific beats general and the spell is very specific about being dispelled is that being the only thing that reverts it from being permanent. It would be like if you had a character that had reincarnation cast on it. If you cast greater restoration, remove curse, anti magic field, dispel magic on the character, they do not revert to their original form as they are permanently the new race. This is the same except they added until dispelled at the end. Other than that, permanent means just that.
The ones I listed above from Crawford. Specifically says anti magic field does nothing as the polymorphed creature is that creature now and cannot be suppressed. The only thing that effects it is it being dispelled. Other than that, you are that thing.