So I have a situation in my campaign that came up in the last session and wanted to run it by the community to see your take. Our last session ended with the party in a battle against a large group of monsters, with basically 3 groups of monsters: the minions, a mini-boss and the big boss. The big boss (duergar riding a female steeder), grappled one of the PC's, leaped up unto the ceiling 20' above, and is now dangling the PC and asking the group to parley or else he'll drop the PC. Here's some context...
Context
Initiative: The initiative order goes like this Player A -> Player B -> Monster Group 1 -> Player C -> Monster mini-boss -> Player D -> Boss (the monster asking for parley).
Big Boss is holding his action. Right now, the big boss has readied an action to drop down off of the ceiling. His plan is if parley doesn't go well, he'll drop the player (free action) for 2d6 damage, then drop from the ceiling (his readied action) right onto the player below him for another 2d6 damage.
So my first question is how do you handle in-combat parley with respect to initiative? I figured the way to go is go through the initiative order as usual, asking the players what action they're taking. So if Players A, B and C hold an attack, but Player D says, "Screw it, kill'em all", then combat begins at Player D and the battle continues with the original initiative list. But if we get all the way back to the original combatant who asked for parley, then we "suspend" combat and start role-playing dialog between the party and the monsters. However, how do we figure out who goes first if negotiations break down and one side attacks? Do we re-roll a new initiative? Do we keep the original initiative and start at the beginning of the list (Player A)?
My second question goes around the boss' plan, of dropping the player - and at the same time -, themselves dropping off the ceiling and trying to smush the player underneath. I figured that dropping the player and smushing them in the same readied action would be fair, because 1) dropping something (or someone) is a free action, 2) things fall at the same rate (thank you gravity!), and 3) the action that was readied was to drop off from the ceiling. So is that legit? Or can it be argued that the boss has to either drop the player or drop down onto the floor themselves, but not both? Also, I figured that I could give the PC a chance to avoid some of the smush damage by rolling a DEX saving through...
For your initiative issue, I would just keep initiative to use again if negotiations fail.
For the drop, the physics would be the same as being dropped and landed on even if they fall together (in both cases he experiences his energy against the ground and the boss's energy against the ground). The boss should still take some damage from this either way though.
The biggest difference in the scenarios is time to escape. I take it there were already grapple checks? There will still be a turn to try to break the grapple before parlay. If they successfully escape, let them do an acrobatics check to hit ground and roll out of the way (half fall damage and no body slam damage). Rule of cool and all that.
I realize this doesn’t answer your question, but no way would I negotiate. Pretty much any PC can survive a 20’ drop (and I wouldn’t have thought about dropping on him, but even with that). And if the damage takes PC to 0, that’s what healing word us for. Now a 200’ drop, then you’d have my attention.
Combat mechanics (including initiative) are a tool best applied only when you need them. Turn-based social interaction is awkward and unrealistic and you end up with weird combat rule questions like the one about whether you can drop someone and drop on them. Those kinds of cinematic scenes don't need to conform to combat rules unless you're doing something grossly unfair.
If I were running that fight, I would have dropped out of initiative once the players agreed to a parley. If it went badly, the PC would be dropped and that would trigger a new initiative roll. If the duergar beat the PC in initiative, it could do its divebomb attack. Otherwise the PC gets a chance to roll away.
Combat mechanics (including initiative) are a tool best applied only when you need them. Turn-based social interaction is awkward and unrealistic and you end up with weird combat rule questions like the one about whether you can drop someone and drop on them. Those kinds of cinematic scenes don't need to conform to combat rules unless you're doing something grossly unfair.
If I were running that fight, I would have dropped out of initiative once the players agreed to a parley. If it went badly, the PC would be dropped and that would trigger a new initiative roll. If the duergar beat the PC in initiative, it could do its divebomb attack. Otherwise the PC gets a chance to roll away.
I think you misunderstood an important premise of the questions. The parlay hasn't started yet, only been requested (not agreed to).
Yea, doing role playing using initiative would be lame, so the crux of my question is what rules-of-thumbs for 1) knowing when to jump in and out of combat, and 2) when to re-use initiative order and when to re-roll it?
So in my situation, the next combatant in the init order is PC A, so should that player be the only player to decide yes/no on the parley request? Or is it better to do a fail fast system: I go down the list and give everyone a chance to either accept parley and ready an action (or do something unagressive like move or heal someone), or ignore the parley request and take a combat turn (attack, cast spell, etc.). And if a PC takes a combat turn, then parley is ignored and the old list stays in play.
Then if the monsters and PC's do start talking, and someone decides it's stabby-stabby time again, is it considered a whole new combat with a whole new initiative role and order?
For initiative, if the players wish to negotiate, I would just jump out of initiative order for a moment to deal with the parley. It would be awkward to try to negotiate in initiative order.
For the bosses plan, I think I would rule that the "free action"/object interaction must occur on the character's turn (i.e. the Bosses turn in this). The readied action, I would allow to be either drop the PC or drop with the PC. If the second, the boss and PC would both take damage from falling. I am not aware of written rules allowing extra damage from the boss landing on top (except, maybe, improvised weapon rules). If I were to allow something like you have suggested (extra falling damage), I would probably allow the PC a Dex saving throw, or do a contested Dex check for the boss to keep the PC in the right position, to do extra damage.
Yea, doing role playing using initiative would be lame, so the crux of my question is what rules-of-thumbs for 1) knowing when to jump in and out of combat, and 2) when to re-use initiative order and when to re-roll it?
So in my situation, the next combatant in the init order is PC A, so should that player be the only player to decide yes/no on the parley request? Or is it better to do a fail fast system: I go down the list and give everyone a chance to either accept parley and ready an action (or do something unagressive like move or heal someone), or ignore the parley request and take a combat turn (attack, cast spell, etc.). And if a PC takes a combat turn, then parley is ignored and the old list stays in play.
Then if the monsters and PC's do start talking, and someone decides it's stabby-stabby time again, is it considered a whole new combat with a whole new initiative role and order?
Minor interaction/communicaiton outside of your turn is largely left to the DM. I have played at tables where you need to use your Reaction to say something out of turn, but I feel like most tables aren't that strict. I'd say the next player in init order could briefly glance at each teammate and receive a signal indicating their willingness to parley.
If all say yes, you drop out of initiative and start talking.
If the active PC says no, continue with combat. Either that removes the offer from the table, or the next PC can try to recover the situation.
If the active PC says yes but someone else says no, they can decide whether to keep fighting or use their action to persuade (roleplayed, not skill checks) the other PCs to give peace a chance.
Basically I would let them give a quick answer immediately, but any discussion would require actions and the battle would continue around them. And yes, I'd generally reroll initiative in the case where talks fell through but I wouldn't object if a DM preferred to keep the previous order/turn count rather than treating it as a new fight.
For the bosses plan, I think I would rule that the "free action"/object interaction must occur on the character's turn (i.e. the Bosses turn in this). The readied action, I would allow to be either drop the PC or drop with the PC. If the second, the boss and PC would both take damage from falling. I am not aware of written rules allowing extra damage from the boss landing on top (except, maybe, improvised weapon rules). If I were to allow something like you have suggested (extra falling damage), I would probably allow the PC a Dex saving throw, or do a contested Dex check for the boss to keep the PC in the right position, to do extra damage.
Yea, I like the idea. So, then I guess the next question would be how much damage then? I would think it would be 4d6 on the PC (fall + squish damage), 2d6 on the spider (fall damage). And I like the contested DEX check idea, that can create a cool moment :)
For initiative, if the players wish to negotiate, I would just jump out of initiative order for a moment to deal with the parley. It would be awkward to try to negotiate in initiative order.
For the bosses plan, I think I would rule that the "free action"/object interaction must occur on the character's turn (i.e. the Bosses turn in this). The readied action, I would allow to be either drop the PC or drop with the PC. If the second, the boss and PC would both take damage from falling. I am not aware of written rules allowing extra damage from the boss landing on top (except, maybe, improvised weapon rules). If I were to allow something like you have suggested (extra falling damage), I would probably allow the PC a Dex saving throw, or do a contested Dex check for the boss to keep the PC in the right position, to do extra damage.
"If a creature falls into the space of a second creature and neither of them is Tiny, the second creature must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or be impacted by the falling creature, and any damage resulting from the fall is divided evenly between them. The impacted creature is also knocked prone, unless it is two or more sizes larger than the falling creature." (Tashas)
For initiative, if the players wish to negotiate, I would just jump out of initiative order for a moment to deal with the parley. It would be awkward to try to negotiate in initiative order.
For the bosses plan, I think I would rule that the "free action"/object interaction must occur on the character's turn (i.e. the Bosses turn in this). The readied action, I would allow to be either drop the PC or drop with the PC. If the second, the boss and PC would both take damage from falling. I am not aware of written rules allowing extra damage from the boss landing on top (except, maybe, improvised weapon rules). If I were to allow something like you have suggested (extra falling damage), I would probably allow the PC a Dex saving throw, or do a contested Dex check for the boss to keep the PC in the right position, to do extra damage.
"If a creature falls into the space of a second creature and neither of them is Tiny, the second creature must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or be impacted by the falling creature, and any damage resulting from the fall is divided evenly between them. The impacted creature is also knocked prone, unless it is two or more sizes larger than the falling creature." (Tashas)
I did not know Tasha clarified this (though I had been housruling something similar).
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Hi D&D-ers!
So I have a situation in my campaign that came up in the last session and wanted to run it by the community to see your take. Our last session ended with the party in a battle against a large group of monsters, with basically 3 groups of monsters: the minions, a mini-boss and the big boss. The big boss (duergar riding a female steeder), grappled one of the PC's, leaped up unto the ceiling 20' above, and is now dangling the PC and asking the group to parley or else he'll drop the PC. Here's some context...
Context
Player A -> Player B -> Monster Group 1 -> Player C -> Monster mini-boss -> Player D -> Boss (the monster asking for parley).
So my first question is how do you handle in-combat parley with respect to initiative? I figured the way to go is go through the initiative order as usual, asking the players what action they're taking. So if Players A, B and C hold an attack, but Player D says, "Screw it, kill'em all", then combat begins at Player D and the battle continues with the original initiative list. But if we get all the way back to the original combatant who asked for parley, then we "suspend" combat and start role-playing dialog between the party and the monsters. However, how do we figure out who goes first if negotiations break down and one side attacks? Do we re-roll a new initiative? Do we keep the original initiative and start at the beginning of the list (Player A)?
My second question goes around the boss' plan, of dropping the player - and at the same time -, themselves dropping off the ceiling and trying to smush the player underneath. I figured that dropping the player and smushing them in the same readied action would be fair, because 1) dropping something (or someone) is a free action, 2) things fall at the same rate (thank you gravity!), and 3) the action that was readied was to drop off from the ceiling. So is that legit? Or can it be argued that the boss has to either drop the player or drop down onto the floor themselves, but not both? Also, I figured that I could give the PC a chance to avoid some of the smush damage by rolling a DEX saving through...
Thanks!
For your initiative issue, I would just keep initiative to use again if negotiations fail.
For the drop, the physics would be the same as being dropped and landed on even if they fall together (in both cases he experiences his energy against the ground and the boss's energy against the ground). The boss should still take some damage from this either way though.
The biggest difference in the scenarios is time to escape. I take it there were already grapple checks? There will still be a turn to try to break the grapple before parlay. If they successfully escape, let them do an acrobatics check to hit ground and roll out of the way (half fall damage and no body slam damage). Rule of cool and all that.
I realize this doesn’t answer your question, but no way would I negotiate. Pretty much any PC can survive a 20’ drop (and I wouldn’t have thought about dropping on him, but even with that). And if the damage takes PC to 0, that’s what healing word us for.
Now a 200’ drop, then you’d have my attention.
Combat mechanics (including initiative) are a tool best applied only when you need them. Turn-based social interaction is awkward and unrealistic and you end up with weird combat rule questions like the one about whether you can drop someone and drop on them. Those kinds of cinematic scenes don't need to conform to combat rules unless you're doing something grossly unfair.
If I were running that fight, I would have dropped out of initiative once the players agreed to a parley. If it went badly, the PC would be dropped and that would trigger a new initiative roll. If the duergar beat the PC in initiative, it could do its divebomb attack. Otherwise the PC gets a chance to roll away.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I think you misunderstood an important premise of the questions. The parlay hasn't started yet, only been requested (not agreed to).
Yea, doing role playing using initiative would be lame, so the crux of my question is what rules-of-thumbs for 1) knowing when to jump in and out of combat, and 2) when to re-use initiative order and when to re-roll it?
So in my situation, the next combatant in the init order is PC A, so should that player be the only player to decide yes/no on the parley request? Or is it better to do a fail fast system: I go down the list and give everyone a chance to either accept parley and ready an action (or do something unagressive like move or heal someone), or ignore the parley request and take a combat turn (attack, cast spell, etc.). And if a PC takes a combat turn, then parley is ignored and the old list stays in play.
Then if the monsters and PC's do start talking, and someone decides it's stabby-stabby time again, is it considered a whole new combat with a whole new initiative role and order?
For initiative, if the players wish to negotiate, I would just jump out of initiative order for a moment to deal with the parley. It would be awkward to try to negotiate in initiative order.
For the bosses plan, I think I would rule that the "free action"/object interaction must occur on the character's turn (i.e. the Bosses turn in this). The readied action, I would allow to be either drop the PC or drop with the PC. If the second, the boss and PC would both take damage from falling. I am not aware of written rules allowing extra damage from the boss landing on top (except, maybe, improvised weapon rules). If I were to allow something like you have suggested (extra falling damage), I would probably allow the PC a Dex saving throw, or do a contested Dex check for the boss to keep the PC in the right position, to do extra damage.
Minor interaction/communicaiton outside of your turn is largely left to the DM. I have played at tables where you need to use your Reaction to say something out of turn, but I feel like most tables aren't that strict. I'd say the next player in init order could briefly glance at each teammate and receive a signal indicating their willingness to parley.
Basically I would let them give a quick answer immediately, but any discussion would require actions and the battle would continue around them. And yes, I'd generally reroll initiative in the case where talks fell through but I wouldn't object if a DM preferred to keep the previous order/turn count rather than treating it as a new fight.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Yea, I like the idea. So, then I guess the next question would be how much damage then? I would think it would be 4d6 on the PC (fall + squish damage), 2d6 on the spider (fall damage). And I like the contested DEX check idea, that can create a cool moment :)
"If a creature falls into the space of a second creature and neither of them is Tiny, the second creature must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or be impacted by the falling creature, and any damage resulting from the fall is divided evenly between them. The impacted creature is also knocked prone, unless it is two or more sizes larger than the falling creature." (Tashas)
Ah, that's cool, I hadn't seen that. Thanks
I did not know Tasha clarified this (though I had been housruling something similar).