Wizard: *casts mass suggestion* You are all pigs! Crawl! Squeal! Warrior: *fails save* I'm sorry, wizard. That is unreasonable and I will not do that. I'm a person not an animal. How dare you deny me my humanity? Wizard: It's a metaphor! And besides, you have no humanity. You're a dwarf. Warrior: whoa
Wizard: *casts mass suggestion* You are all pigs! Crawl! Squeal! Warrior: *fails save* I'm sorry, wizard. That is unreasonable and I will not do that. I'm a person not an animal. How dare you deny me my humanity? Wizard: It's a metaphor! And besides, you have no humanity. You're a dwarf. Warrior: whoa
As a 6th level spell, I would suggest (see what I did there?) that mass suggestion should have an effect at least as influential as 1st level command while acknowledging the wording of the influence of the spells is not exactly the same.
1) Mass Suggestion can work on 12 creatures. Command upcast to 6 works on half as many.
2) I didn't say MS can't do what you want it to do. My wildly controversial opinion is that you need to follow the wording in the description of the spell which includes "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable." The spell is specifically asking the player to do this. So take 10 seconds to think up a way to justify the behavior you're asking for. I don't think that's too much to ask.
As a 6th level spell, I would suggest (see what I did there?) that mass suggestion should have an effect at least as influential as 1st level command while acknowledging the wording of the influence of the spells is not exactly the same.
1) Mass Suggestion can work on 12 creatures. Command upcast to 6 works on half as many.
2) I didn't say MS can't do what you want it to do. My wildly controversial opinion is that you need to follow the wording in the description of the spell which includes "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable." The spell is specifically asking the player to do this. So take 10 seconds to think up a way to justify the behavior you're asking for. I don't think that's too much to ask.
Yeah it's not hard to just think of something more reasonable than to try to convince a dude he is a pig
The BBEG cast mass suggestion on the party. Stating to the party
"I suggest that from now on you will all obey me and be respectful and courteous to me if you don't want your friends to suffer"
Upcast to level nine spell thus if we failed it will last one year and one day.
So if we fail, we must obey him for a year, and therefore for the whole year he can command the party to do his bidding.
Two weeks later, he recast MS at level nine, stipulating again we must obey him.
Is that a reasonable request bearing in mind he has already killed members of our family prior to casting MS ?
bear in mind, that the BBEG has implied that our failure will result in deaths of others a reasonable assumption because the BBEG has displayed they can and will do such a thing.
The spell description tells you what it can do. "Convince the targets that they're animals" is not one of those things.
You cannot convince them, but you can certainly suggest that they act like pigs for the duration of the spell It's certainly humiliating but not self-harming and actually not extremely powerful.
On a side note, we had an incredible fun in a celtic LARP a few (well, more than a few, actually) years back, there was a large intrigue around a boar spirit, and at some point in time the members of my warbands and I were convinced to act as wild piglets in bushes, and try avoid being caught. It was quite scary but a lot of fun to grunt through the bushes trying not to be caught by huge boar spirit.
It also has to be "worded in such a manner as to make the course of action seem reasonable" would love to hear what they could say to the folks for them to think acting like a pig is a reasonable course of action.
No. This has been discussed many times and the "reasonable" is just a WORDING, it must SEEM reasonable, not BE reasonable, otherwise the knight would never give away his warhorse as in the example. Again, this is a spell, not a simple charisma check, and it has an effect akin to charm.
The reasonableness is to avoid self harm, as clearly indicated in the next sentence in the spell description.
"Go sit and take a 8 hour rest" is more reasonable.
By your take, this is stupid for anyone for example in a combat situation, so it would not be reasonable, and the spell is therefore useless. Fortunately, this is not the right interpretation of the spell.
It's in the spell and uses natural language so I'm pretty certain you are mistaken.
The war horse could make sense if the person believes in charity. "You are such a wonderfully successful Knight and you should give your horse to the needy to show your public how you love them." Simple works and is reasonable.
Also yeah if you are using in battle basically nothing makes sense unless it's "You are over classes! You should retreat!"
It's not hard to make it work if you are creative.
I disagree as the spell gives clear examples of what would be considered unreasonable, and that would be anything that does it direct harm. Anything else can be considered reasonable. If not, I can argue its unreasonable for an enemy to leave its post to go and take a rest for 8 hours as it knows its boss would kill it for leaving. Anything you tell an enemy to do that helps you in anyway is unreasonable, thats why the examples are given, to show the unreasonable request would only involve self harm.
"You are all pigs! Crawl, squeel! You are all pigs!"
It's not reasonable. They are not pigs and it's a silly request that is not even a suggestion.
"you should go rest at your homes you look tired"
It's much more reasonable.
Counter point, if the enemy goes home the enemy commander will find out and kill it for leaving its post. Now I made your request unreasonable. Give another, I can make that unreasonable as well. Any request you give an enemy that helps you will be unreasonable or against what they would normally do in that situation. It gives clear examples of unreasonable requests "self immolation, throw itself on a spear, etc". Those examples involve direct harm. Crawling on the ground is not harmful, therefore, its reasonable.
"You are all pigs! Crawl, squeel! You are all pigs!"
It's not reasonable. They are not pigs and it's a silly request that is not even a suggestion.
"you should go rest at your homes you look tired"
It's much more reasonable.
Counter point, if the enemy goes home the enemy commander will find out and kill it for leaving its post. Now I made your request unreasonable. Give another, I can make that unreasonable as well. Any request you give an enemy that helps you will be unreasonable or against what they would normally do in that situation. It gives clear examples of unreasonable requests "self immolation, throw itself on a spear, etc". Those examples involve direct harm. Crawling on the ground is not harmful, therefore, its reasonable.
This is why some people pointed out that commanding them to crawl could be reasonable (such as by convincing them there's harm coming if they don't) but not the "you are pigs" part because that isn't covered by the spell.
Also why did you necro a 2-year-old post for this?
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Yeah the original suggestion:
"You are all pigs! Crawl, squeel! You are all pigs!"
It's not reasonable. They are not pigs and it's a silly request that is not even a suggestion.
"you should go rest at your homes you look tired"
It's much more reasonable.
Wizard: *casts mass suggestion* You are all pigs! Crawl! Squeal!
Warrior: *fails save* I'm sorry, wizard. That is unreasonable and I will not do that. I'm a person not an animal. How dare you deny me my humanity?
Wizard: It's a metaphor! And besides, you have no humanity. You're a dwarf.
Warrior: whoa
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Simply amazing lol
"Thank you for volunteering to be pigs in my play about farm animals. When I say "Action", you must all play your part until I say "Cut"!
So basically the sum up is I should imagine myself as Dracula and do that silky Bela Legosi "look into my eyes" bit.
Shame it loses something in the dramatic moment, but that's roleplay versus rules I guess.
"Let's not fight. We can discuss this later over ale... Go home now and meet me at the tavern later?"
1) Mass Suggestion can work on 12 creatures. Command upcast to 6 works on half as many.
2) I didn't say MS can't do what you want it to do. My wildly controversial opinion is that you need to follow the wording in the description of the spell which includes "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable." The spell is specifically asking the player to do this. So take 10 seconds to think up a way to justify the behavior you're asking for. I don't think that's too much to ask.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Mass Suggestion also has a much longer duration than Command, upcast or not.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yeah it's not hard to just think of something more reasonable than to try to convince a dude he is a pig
It's much easier to do about 100 other things
Here is a discussion point, from another angle.
The BBEG cast mass suggestion on the party. Stating to the party
"I suggest that from now on you will all obey me and be respectful and courteous to me if you don't want your friends to suffer"
Upcast to level nine spell thus if we failed it will last one year and one day.
So if we fail, we must obey him for a year, and therefore for the whole year he can command the party to do his bidding.
Two weeks later, he recast MS at level nine, stipulating again we must obey him.
Is that a reasonable request bearing in mind he has already killed members of our family prior to casting MS ?
bear in mind, that the BBEG has implied that our failure will result in deaths of others a reasonable assumption because the BBEG has displayed they can and will do such a thing.
I think it's an unreasonable plot to have a villain who can put the entire party under what amounts to permanent mind control.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I disagree as the spell gives clear examples of what would be considered unreasonable, and that would be anything that does it direct harm. Anything else can be considered reasonable. If not, I can argue its unreasonable for an enemy to leave its post to go and take a rest for 8 hours as it knows its boss would kill it for leaving. Anything you tell an enemy to do that helps you in anyway is unreasonable, thats why the examples are given, to show the unreasonable request would only involve self harm.
Counter point, if the enemy goes home the enemy commander will find out and kill it for leaving its post. Now I made your request unreasonable. Give another, I can make that unreasonable as well. Any request you give an enemy that helps you will be unreasonable or against what they would normally do in that situation. It gives clear examples of unreasonable requests "self immolation, throw itself on a spear, etc". Those examples involve direct harm. Crawling on the ground is not harmful, therefore, its reasonable.
This is why some people pointed out that commanding them to crawl could be reasonable (such as by convincing them there's harm coming if they don't) but not the "you are pigs" part because that isn't covered by the spell.
Also why did you necro a 2-year-old post for this?