The water vapor (microscopic droplets of water) are held aloft by air density. The moment the water vapor increases in weight (such as when a person steps on it), it's not the water that gives, it's the air beneath it. You'd fall as fast as if you were trying to walk on air.
Why would the weight of the water beneath your feet increase if you were using magic to walk on it?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
…I don't really understand why some people expect that real world science should be rigorously applied to problems in D&D when the whole premise of magic is that real world science doesn't apply….
I disagree with your premise. Why wouldn’t scientific concepts and principles be part of what a spellcaster considers when researching and creating a spell? The entire mechanic around Material spell components is directly inspired by the concept of “sympathy,”/“sympathetic magic,.” That is basically the idea that a person could achieved a desired outcome by influence something or someone through a connection achieved by using a suitable device. Two principles of sympathetic magic that most folks will likely recognize are: ”a piece has sympethy with the whole” and “like calls to like.”
There are a few RL examples regarding the idea of pieces connecting to a whole that are probably familiar to people. For example, the notion that if one had a lock of someone’s hair, or a few of their nail clippings, those could temporarily be used to establish a connection to that individual. Of course, those only work until that person cuts their nails or hair again as that would make the older items “once removed” from their source. Blood was generally considered a more permanent connection not easily severed. Blood is also very, very necessary for human survival. Having a portion of someone’s blood is therefore thought to hold a commensurate portion of the person’s life essence. It was (likely) unknown at the time that the human body replaces all of its blood about every month or two. Either that or life essence thing trumps the blood replacement schedule. 🤷♂️ Another RL example of the piece->whole connectivity concept hat should be familiar to people is a “lucky rabbit’s foot.” (I know,, I know, “it didn’t do the rabbit much good.” Har, har.) Actually, as I understand their origin, only a rabbit’s foot acquired in a very specific way could be considered a genuine luck charm. A trapper checks a snare expecting to find the protein for that night’s soup pot. However, instead of finding supper, they found only a foot. Only those rabbit feet were genuine luck charms. After all, it was a darned lucky rabbit to have escaped, even if it didn’t escape “whole.” The “piece” left behind still held a connection to the rest of that very lucky rabbit, as long as the rabbit was still alive. (If I recall correctly, it became a sort of tradition to release any 3-footed rabbits found in a snare, so as to not steal another trapper’s luck.). So they are not “the lucky feet of rabbits,” instead the are “the feet of lucky rabbits.”
The theory behind “Ike:like” is that if you have something “similar enough” to whatever you were trying to affect, it could create a link where none currently exists. So when an RL witch performs a piece if magic designed to bring success and financial prosperity, they often use coins of sufficient value (say gold dollar coins for example) to form the shape of a pentacle where they practice their craft. The coins, being money, for a connection “like to like” with other money and call that money to join them in the witch’s home. Even a purely symbolic object could potentially do the trick if the symbolism (and all of the total accumulated belief in that symbol and what it represents) is truly strong enough to forge and maintain the connection. (Like how holy symbols are used globally IRL as wards against evil. That’s why crucifixes/crosses only warded off Vampires when used as a ward by someone with genuine true faith in the things that symbol represents. A Hindu would likely find symbols of Christianity to be overrated in its protective. However, if their own faith is strong enough, an AUM would likely yield better results for them instead. Theoretically, if an agnostic police officer possesses similar true faith in their call to protect and serve the people of their community (even at the risk of their own life in that pursuit, they might very well find themselves unexpectedly warded by brandishing their shield (badge) against a vampire. (IF their faith is strong enough… if. That officer’s genuine belief in their sworn mission, might potentially “upgrade” their shield from a symbol of their office, and transform it into a symbol of Protection and Service to others. After all, (in my book at leastwould count as true faith in a force of “goodness” sufficient to deter creatures of darkness and evil.
Another significant concept central to RL “Witchcraft/Wicca” is communicated with the simple phrase: “as above, so below.” That phrase holds (and hopefully inspires) concepts of cycles and, balance, cosmic harmony, and the idea that there are patterns to the universe, and that things sposta make sense of one can open themselves up the bigger picture. That concept exists throughout 5e in a number of ways. An example I feel is very applicable to this topic would be the concept of a “Class Spell List” compared to any given PC’s personal list of Class spells. Another example can be seen in the fact that many (but not all) leveled spells can be upcast, and that many (but not all) of the Cantrips also scale in power, though automatically.
For at least the last two paragraphs you have possibly been thinking something along the lines of “exactly, that’s all magic, it has nothing to do with science.”
So, to now address that point:
Pieces of things having inherent connections to the actual thing is quite literally an “everyday occurrence” in the scientific community. Some few examples are:
The process of organ rejection after transplantation, and the medicines required to keep the recipient’s body from rejecting a piece of some other whole person.
The prospects of using someone’s own stem cells to create transplantable organs that will already be pieces of the whole people that will receive those organs. (Including an in-built antiregection system coded into a piece of the person’s whole DNA strand.
The fact that splitting a whole atom to learn about the pieces is very difficult and potentially very dangerous.
Cloning trees using cuttings.
The idea of “like to like” is also quite literally an “everyday occurrence” in the scientific community. Some few examples are:
The fact that transplanting organs between people who are genetically similar is possible at all.
Many different fish will instinctively school with others of the same species.
The fact that birds of the same species instinctively flock together. (Just lump herd animals and pack animals in here instead of making two more points on this list that are similar the the last two.
The human species inherited instinct towards tribalism, and how we are evolving socially.
The fact that ingredients naturally high in umami naturally complement one another, and can make animal proteins, especially red meat taste “meatier.”
Gravity.
Magnetism and the interaction with ferrous metals.
Every system of cataloging and/or organizing anything ever.
Evidence of “as above, so below” being an actual thing is also, also quite literally an “everyday occurrence” in the scientific community. Some few examples are:
A grain of sand viewed under sufficient magnification looks just like a mountain.
An atom and a planetary system viewed side-by-side.
The branches and roots of most trees are almost mirror images of each other. (Quite literally “as above, so below.”)
Fluid dynamics and the fact that our oceans and our atmosphere are just different fluids stratified by density (like Italian salad dressing).
The fact that we have recognized just enough of these occurrences to realize we have barely scratched the surface.
Every farmer and arborist used to be a scientist studying plants. (I honestly do not know enough about modern agriculture to know if that is still true.)
Every chef is a chemist.
Anyone who designs or builds anything physical: physics, mathematics, engineering, and possibly geology, meteorology, or other sciences.
(And that’s just to name a few.)
My question is, how could a spellcaster create a new spell without incorporating some science into their work?
PS- It takes a brand new human between 8 and 18 months to discover and understand enough physics to be able to use all their limbs together just to walk without crashing. Imagine how much physics the caster who created mage hand needed for that one cantrip. Then imagine how much Bigby needed to learn to write his signature spell.
Thank you for very detailed response. You've clearly given this a lot of thought, but I think we are talking about two different things. My beef is with the player that seems to want to insist that the fantasy world is exactly like the real world, except for magic, not with the character that wants to explore an internally consistent fantasy world using the scientific method.
I think it is pretty clear that RL physics and chemistry do not apply in the D&D 5e fantasy world. Falling damage is one example, flying dragons is another, giant insects is a third. So, the degree to which the 'rules' of the real world apply to the fantasy world cannot, and should not, be relied upon by the players, particularly when their motivation is cheese and exploits. Why, in a world of cloud giants and dragons, would one assume that clouds are made of water? How many fantasy settings have been used with flat earths and stars fixed in the sky?
As others have said, the rules of D&D are generally written in natural English, which leads to a host of problems when you try to interpret them literally in the context of real world 'rules'. Create Bonfire ignites flammable objects, the auto ignition temperature of iron, in the real world, is about 1,300c, and therefore iron is flammable, so you can set a castle portcullis on fire with a cantrip?
That's why the game has a DM to say "it doesn't work that way in this world."
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Ultimately I would say a cloud is not water (in game).
You cannot Water Walk to walk on clouds (in game).
The spell lists several examples... such as water, acid, mud, snow, quicksand, or lava
There are probably more but I would not count clouds... also there is water in everything in existence just about... microscopically?
Remember the spell allows you to walk on liquids... not solids, or gases, even if they contain water
Ask your DM what you can do with this spell... some may allow Cloud Dancers.
I would agree. And as for things like walking up waterfalls, as was mentioned somewhere, I would say unless you have an ability that allows you to walk on vertical surfaces you can’t. And just like walking up a down escalator at the mall, unless your speed is more than the speed of the water coming down it still wouldn’t work.
I mean, at what point do you allow it to go on? If it’s really humid in a jungle environment would you allow just walking in the air any direction because there’s water molecules around?
The water in a cloud or fog is being held up by air. The water vapor that you'd be stepping on has a weight of its own, that being lighter than the air below it.
The moment you put any additional weight onto that water, it now weighs more than the air keeping it aloft.
The spell allows you to magically walk on water, but that water needs to have a solid surface below it to support your added weight. The spell does not make you float, it doesn't make you lighter than air. Your weight would have to be transitioned to something; that being the water, and then the added weight of you on top of the water transfers to the surface below it, which would be the air that is not magically bound to support your weight.
The water you walk on via the spell (as well as lava) would typically be held up by solid ground.
Magically being able to walk on water means that you can now "walk on water". Which would mean that water can now support your weight. It does not mean that weight/mass is removed from the equation completely.
Magically being able to walk on water means that you can now "walk on water". Which would mean that water can now support your weight. It does not mean that weight/mass is removed from the equation completely.
Actually, I've flavored my Water Walking spell so that whatever water is under my feet exerts an upward force that exactly counters the downward force of my footfall. So yes, weight/mass is being removed from the equation entirely.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
So when we are talking about weight, I think shape water and water walking would do the work, even if there is no support. You could make a water ladder and use water walking to do it no?
Which would work if you are the DM. As everyone says, it all comes down to the person running the show.
Although, again I personally would say with weight/mass being canceled out with that spell, then anywhere where the humidity is high enough would allow you to fly through the air like the Fly spell.
Or send you flying straight up to the upper atmosphere like a levitate spell, since you'd technically be surrounded by water.
Let me add to Sposta’s post. The laws of physics like them or not are what ties the world together into cohesive whole that is reasonably predictable. Everything you do outside of magic you do because of physics. If your world as a whole doesn’t follow physics then it’s a mad unpredictable chaos. Yes magic seems to bypass physics but it can be considered to be following more advanced rules - similar to the ways quantum physics and relativity don’t revoke Newtonian physics they apply to special situations and reduce to Newtonian physics in normal situations. Think of fireball - while we typically think of it as creating a brief burst of super hot fire in a limited space it may actually be that you are creating a momentary time Tess era to to link that limited area to the time when it was part of he primordial fireball and then the link breaks down. Same effect either way but very different possible explanations - one technically allowed by physics the other not. Most of the game is fairly well based in science with some extraction for game mechanics. But physics (and other sciences) can pretty well explain most of what pens in game ( PLEASE NOTE I SAID MOST not all).
To follow up physics does explain why the answer to the OPs question is a definite NO! In a liquid the molecules are in contact with other but free to flow. The first is what gives the surface the surface tension and pressure resistance that allows you to walk on them potentially. The latter is what allows them to flow and makes them a fluid. The droplets in a cloud are indeed liquid but each is widely dispersed from the others being held aloft by the movement of the air molecules in between. The air will move it of the way of your steps taking the water droplets with it. Effectively walking on a cloud with water walking is like walking on quicksand without water walking for the very same reasons. And for these same reasons no you can’t run on raindrops either!
The water vapor (microscopic droplets of water) are held aloft by air density. The moment the water vapor increases in weight (such as when a person steps on it), it's not the water that gives, it's the air beneath it. You'd fall as fast as if you were trying to walk on air.
Why would the weight of the water beneath your feet increase if you were using magic to walk on it?
…In a liquid the molecules are in contact with other but free to flow.
Technically that depends on temperature. The closer to a liquid’s freezing point that liquid gets, the closer together the individual molecules get; the closer to the boiling point, the further apart the molecules get as they bounce off of each other from the added energy.
The water vapor (microscopic droplets of water) are held aloft by air density. The moment the water vapor increases in weight (such as when a person steps on it), it's not the water that gives, it's the air beneath it. You'd fall as fast as if you were trying to walk on air.
Why would the weight of the water beneath your feet increase if you were using magic to walk on it?
…In a liquid the molecules are in contact with other but free to flow.
Technically that depends on temperature. The closer to a liquid’s freezing point that liquid gets, the closer together the individual molecules get; the closer to the boiling point, the further apart the molecules get as they bounce off of each other from the added energy.
Sorry if I wasn't clear -- the operative word in that original post was magic. None of that gobbledy-gook applies
By the way, I've flavored Water Walking so that the surface of the water becomes boot-phobic. I stay up because the water is rejecting my feet
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
But wouldn't you be forced upward if you take a step forward? You'd have to raise your foot in order to take a step; at which point the water vapor that it now hovers over wouldn't let you put your foot back down...
I mean, if your foot rises in order to take a step (say in some fog or a cloud), and the water vapor repels your foot entirely, then you would technically end up walking upward similar to a staircase... and does it account for any amount of water or just clouds and fog? Again, high humidity is tangible enough as far as magic could/would be concerned.
Sure I can handwave anything and everything by using the term "magic", but there has to be something to ground it to or else there's really no end to what you could abuse in this game.
Not saying that your personal preference on the matter is wrong, it's your game when you're running it, but I see several ways to break the game if ever I allowed my imagination to run rampant.
If I could use the spell Walk on Water on any form of water, even microscopic droplets suspended in the air, then I could use this one spell to cast fly, feather fall, and/or levitate... actually I take back feather fall, if the water droplets stop me from falling through them outright, it would probably just result in you going "SPLAT" in midair... if you land on your feet?...
So wait, if you wanted to dive through the cloud, would you simply do what the artic fox does and nose dive into it? And if you did that, would you end up stuck upside down because your feet can't get through the clouds/fog? lol
…I don't really understand why some people expect that real world science should be rigorously applied to problems in D&D when the whole premise of magic is that real world science doesn't apply….
I disagree with your premise. Why wouldn’t scientific concepts and principles be part of what a spellcaster considers when researching and creating a spell? The entire mechanic around Material spell components is directly inspired by the concept of “sympathy,”/“sympathetic magic,.” That is basically the idea that a person could achieved a desired outcome by influence something or someone through a connection achieved by using a suitable device. Two principles of sympathetic magic that most folks will likely recognize are: ”a piece has sympethy with the whole” and “like calls to like.”
There are a few RL examples regarding the idea of pieces connecting to a whole that are probably familiar to people. For example, the notion that if one had a lock of someone’s hair, or a few of their nail clippings, those could temporarily be used to establish a connection to that individual. Of course, those only work until that person cuts their nails or hair again as that would make the older items “once removed” from their source. Blood was generally considered a more permanent connection not easily severed. Blood is also very, very necessary for human survival. Having a portion of someone’s blood is therefore thought to hold a commensurate portion of the person’s life essence. It was (likely) unknown at the time that the human body replaces all of its blood about every month or two. Either that or life essence thing trumps the blood replacement schedule. 🤷♂️ Another RL example of the piece->whole connectivity concept hat should be familiar to people is a “lucky rabbit’s foot.” (I know,, I know, “it didn’t do the rabbit much good.” Har, har.) Actually, as I understand their origin, only a rabbit’s foot acquired in a very specific way could be considered a genuine luck charm. A trapper checks a snare expecting to find the protein for that night’s soup pot. However, instead of finding supper, they found only a foot. Only those rabbit feet were genuine luck charms. After all, it was a darned lucky rabbit to have escaped, even if it didn’t escape “whole.” The “piece” left behind still held a connection to the rest of that very lucky rabbit, as long as the rabbit was still alive. (If I recall correctly, it became a sort of tradition to release any 3-footed rabbits found in a snare, so as to not steal another trapper’s luck.). So they are not “the lucky feet of rabbits,” instead the are “the feet of lucky rabbits.”
The theory behind “Ike:like” is that if you have something “similar enough” to whatever you were trying to affect, it could create a link where none currently exists. So when an RL witch performs a piece if magic designed to bring success and financial prosperity, they often use coins of sufficient value (say gold dollar coins for example) to form the shape of a pentacle where they practice their craft. The coins, being money, for a connection “like to like” with other money and call that money to join them in the witch’s home. Even a purely symbolic object could potentially do the trick if the symbolism (and all of the total accumulated belief in that symbol and what it represents) is truly strong enough to forge and maintain the connection. (Like how holy symbols are used globally IRL as wards against evil. That’s why crucifixes/crosses only warded off Vampires when used as a ward by someone with genuine true faith in the things that symbol represents. A Hindu would likely find symbols of Christianity to be overrated in its protective. However, if their own faith is strong enough, an AUM would likely yield better results for them instead. Theoretically, if an agnostic police officer possesses similar true faith in their call to protect and serve the people of their community (even at the risk of their own life in that pursuit, they might very well find themselves unexpectedly warded by brandishing their shield (badge) against a vampire. (IF their faith is strong enough… if. That officer’s genuine belief in their sworn mission, might potentially “upgrade” their shield from a symbol of their office, and transform it into a symbol of Protection and Service to others. After all, (in my book at leastwould count as true faith in a force of “goodness” sufficient to deter creatures of darkness and evil.
Another significant concept central to RL “Witchcraft/Wicca” is communicated with the simple phrase: “as above, so below.” That phrase holds (and hopefully inspires) concepts of cycles and, balance, cosmic harmony, and the idea that there are patterns to the universe, and that things sposta make sense of one can open themselves up the bigger picture. That concept exists throughout 5e in a number of ways. An example I feel is very applicable to this topic would be the concept of a “Class Spell List” compared to any given PC’s personal list of Class spells. Another example can be seen in the fact that many (but not all) leveled spells can be upcast, and that many (but not all) of the Cantrips also scale in power, though automatically.
For at least the last two paragraphs you have possibly been thinking something along the lines of “exactly, that’s all magic, it has nothing to do with science.”
So, to now address that point:
Pieces of things having inherent connections to the actual thing is quite literally an “everyday occurrence” in the scientific community. Some few examples are:
The process of organ rejection after transplantation, and the medicines required to keep the recipient’s body from rejecting a piece of some other whole person.
The prospects of using someone’s own stem cells to create transplantable organs that will already be pieces of the whole people that will receive those organs. (Including an in-built antiregection system coded into a piece of the person’s whole DNA strand.
The fact that splitting a whole atom to learn about the pieces is very difficult and potentially very dangerous.
Cloning trees using cuttings.
The idea of “like to like” is also quite literally an “everyday occurrence” in the scientific community. Some few examples are:
The fact that transplanting organs between people who are genetically similar is possible at all.
Many different fish will instinctively school with others of the same species.
The fact that birds of the same species instinctively flock together. (Just lump herd animals and pack animals in here instead of making two more points on this list that are similar the the last two.
The human species inherited instinct towards tribalism, and how we are evolving socially.
The fact that ingredients naturally high in umami naturally complement one another, and can make animal proteins, especially red meat taste “meatier.”
Gravity.
Magnetism and the interaction with ferrous metals.
Every system of cataloging and/or organizing anything ever.
Evidence of “as above, so below” being an actual thing is also, also quite literally an “everyday occurrence” in the scientific community. Some few examples are:
A grain of sand viewed under sufficient magnification looks just like a mountain.
An atom and a planetary system viewed side-by-side.
The branches and roots of most trees are almost mirror images of each other. (Quite literally “as above, so below.”)
Fluid dynamics and the fact that our oceans and our atmosphere are just different fluids stratified by density (like Italian salad dressing).
The fact that we have recognized just enough of these occurrences to realize we have barely scratched the surface.
Every farmer and arborist used to be a scientist studying plants. (I honestly do not know enough about modern agriculture to know if that is still true.)
Every chef is a chemist.
Anyone who designs or builds anything physical: physics, mathematics, engineering, and possibly geology, meteorology, or other sciences.
(And that’s just to name a few.)
My question is, how could a spellcaster create a new spell without incorporating some science into their work?
PS- It takes a brand new human between 8 and 18 months to discover and understand enough physics to be able to use all their limbs together just to walk without crashing. Imagine how much physics the caster who created mage hand needed for that one cantrip. Then imagine how much Bigby needed to learn to write his signature spell.
Thank you for very detailed response. You've clearly given this a lot of thought, but I think we are talking about two different things. My beef is with the player that seems to want to insist that the fantasy world is exactly like the real world, except for magic, not with the character that wants to explore an internally consistent fantasy world using the scientific method.
I think it is pretty clear that RL physics and chemistry do not apply in the D&D 5e fantasy world. Falling damage is one example, flying dragons is another, giant insects is a third. So, the degree to which the 'rules' of the real world apply to the fantasy world cannot, and should not, be relied upon by the players, particularly when their motivation is cheese and exploits. Why, in a world of cloud giants and dragons, would one assume that clouds are made of water? How many fantasy settings have been used with flat earths and stars fixed in the sky?
As others have said, the rules of D&D are generally written in natural English, which leads to a host of problems when you try to interpret them literally in the context of real world 'rules'. Create Bonfire ignites flammable objects, the auto ignition temperature of iron, in the real world, is about 1,300c, and therefore iron is flammable, so you can set a castle portcullis on fire with a cantrip?
That's why the game has a DM to say "it doesn't work that way in this world."
I completely understand and can absolutely appreciate not letting players try to get away with 🐴💩, especially when they know it’s complete 💩. Players who try to game the game like that, give ‘em an inch… you know. Eff that noise, Sposta don’t play dat. But if this thread is about any particular “beef” you may have with any one particular player, no matter how annoying or gamist, then you gave it the wrong title and put it in the wrong forum. There’s a DMs’ forum that’s perfect for threads with titles like “Dealing with a player who wants to use Water Walk to go cloud dancing.” (Or something along those lines.) But a thread titled “Water walking to walk on clouds?” in the “Tips & Tactics” forum…. Not so much. Therefore, I am not discussing your beef or that player, instead I am discussing the plausibility of using the listed spell in the way mentioned as a viable tactic. Make sense?
Everyone who has ever played 5e is well aware of the game’s issues stemming from the imprecise language in the rules. You should have seen the pages long debate I and some others were once in with a mathematician who kept insisting everyone else was calculating Cone AOEs incorrect. According to him we were getting it all wrong on account of conflating the cone’s height and length. When we finally got him to understand that the game’s plain language rules were using the colloquial definitions of “height” (measured along the vertical access) and “length” (measured along the horizontal access) he was horrified. I remember him asking me if a 6-foot tall person was, laying down, would they no longer be 6-foot tall? When I told him that, in D&D terms, that person would now be “6 feet long,” I could feel how flabbergasted he was through the internet.
Yes, certainly some things were stripped down and super simplified in transition to RAW, much like falling damage and rate of descent. But that’s because this is a game and not a simulation. It’s easy for any DM, regardless of education, to simply know that RAW, a falling PC descends 500 ft./round, and that it happens instantly at the beginning of that character’s turn. Making that easy for DMs means that arbitrating that rule happens faster and keeps the pace of combat moving. If the DM had to actually calculate a PC’s rate of descent at 32ft/second/second and determine how that would be divided across multiple creatures turns on a 6-second round, and figure out that PC’s terminal velocity without any information as to the wind resistance…. (I’m sure some people’s eyes just glazed over.) Some accuracy had to be sacrificed, it just had to. It is what it is.
As to the existence of flying dragons and giant insects however, those could absolutely be explained scientifically. Neither of those is evidence that the worlds of D&D are not subject to the laws of Physics.
Of course dragons can fly. So they aren’t aerodynamic and their wings are too short; so what? According to the principles of aerodynamics, bumble bees shouldn’t be able to fly either, but they do. It turns out that their short wingspan and complete lack of aerodynamic properties are overcome by bees simply flying in a different way. They basically create wee little, itty bitty, teeny tiny, mini hurricanes that they float around on. (I know! Cool, right!?!) But people only actually figured out how bees can fly (despite not following any known principles of aerodynamics) about 15ish years ago. It took humanity tens of thousands of years (and some advanced technology) to understand how a species older than humanity does something, and we have actually had real-live bees to study the whole time. Just because we cannot currently fathom how a dragon could fly without breaking the laws of physics doesn’t mean that dragons couldn’t fly. It just means we haven’t figured it out yet.
Of course giant insects could exist. People think that giant insects couldn’t “physically” exist (as in Physics) because of their spindly little legs. (We’ll come back to those.) Many incorrectly attribute that “impossibility” to the cube-square law. But that’s all hogwash. Did you know that we have actually discovered fossils of dragonflies the size of hawks and 3-foot long centipedes? So, clearly giant insects did exist on this planet at one point. And if they did exist then obviously them not existing now cannot be attributed to any physical laws at all. So why don’t they exist anymore? Great question. But the answer is not to be found through the physical sciences, but the natural sciences. Insects don’t use their blood to deliver oxygen throughout their bodies. Instead, they have these small holes on their bodies that let air in where the oxygen can be absorbed directly. (I know, cool right?!?) The drawback to that system is that it requires these air tubes to run all throughout their bodies to deliver oxygen, and the larger an insects is, the more air tubes it needs. So, larger insects have to dedicate proportionally more of their bodies for those air tubes, and that becomes a problem when it gets down to their spindly little legs. (Toldja I’d get back to those. 😉) Back in the whateveriolithic era that the giant insects did exist, the atmosphere had more oxygen than it does now. Who’s to say that the worlds of D&D don’t have more oxygen rich atmospheres than Earth? Who’s to say that the evolutionary arc of the insects on those worlds didn’t hit upon a different solution to the issue? Maybe those insects evolved with additional vent holes to let in more air? Maybe they evolved to have something akin to lungs to bellow in more air? Or maybe they evolved a circular system to move the air through instead of the dead-ended air tubes Earth insects have. Maybe the giant insects of D&D evolved with platelets and use blood to deliver oxygen the same way as vertebrate animals on Earth. Just because we don’t know doesn’t mean it isn’t true. We didn’t know why insects on earth are currently all small until they X-rayed some beetles of different sizes. Since we have none of the giant insects from D&D to study, we don’t know how it is possible for them to exist, but that doesn’t mean they couldn’t.
I was fortunate enough that I was educated in a way that allows me to accept the science we know, and the things science cannot explain as both true. For example, the entire debate over evolution vs intelligent design, both can be true for me. The one does not preclude the other. I don’t have to understand how they’re both true, I just know that they are. (I don’t really understand how the internet works, but here I am.) Maybe one day people will potentially understand how both can be true, maybe they won’t. 🤷♂️ That doesn’t matter though, they’re still both true. So why can’t D&D magic and actual Physics both be true? Just because you don’t understand it? So what? Did you know how bumble bees fly or how insects breath before reading this? Doesn’t matter, they were still true.
You are absolutely correct that part of the DM’s responsibility is to be the arbiter of what is or is not 🐴💩. If you had felt that using Water Walk to walk on a cloud was 🐴💩, but had allowed it anyway, then that would be bad DMing. By calling 🐴💩 when your 🐴💩 detector started making noise, that was a good call on your part. But that doesn’t necessarily mean I agree with you. Different DMs will inevitably place the "here there be 🐴 💩” warnings on different parts of the map. And I personally don’t think that the existence of fantasy magic precludes the existence of a world governed by physical laws. Like I said before, I accept that both are true.
Would I allow that use of that spell at my table? I have been trying to decide this whole time. I expect that’s at least in part because it didn’t happen at my table. Since I wasn’t the one put on the spot, I honestly cannot say what I would have done. But I also cannot say because I really just don’t know yet. RAW, it says “any liquid surface” and then follows up with a list that includes both mud and snow. Snow is not a liquid AFAIK, it’s a pile of crystals. When it gets slushy it’s liquid, but when it’s cold enough to stay frozen it’s a collection of solids dispersed in a gasoline medium. It also specifically lists mud as a liquid this spell allows a caster to walk across. Mud is a solution of dirt and water. And as I stated in an earlier post, clouds are basically pockets of mud in the sky that are dispersed enough to stay buoyant. It’s the dust particles in the clouds that give the water vapor something to condense around. “Condensed water vapor” is just another way to say “liquid water.” That means Clouds are more of a liquid than snow is.
See my point? My issue is more to do with Crawford’s shortcomings as a designer than with a player expecting the laws of Physics to apply to D&D. I know Crawford can’t even arbitrate his own rules correctly about 1/3 of the time, he proves it openly on Twitter on a regular basis. And I know physics is real because physics is real. And I know magic exists in D&D because duhh. And I know that both science and magic can both coexist whether or not I can understand how. Personally, I’m more inclined to go with the player on this one.
So I suppose thanks are in order, and therefore happily extend them. In writing this response I was able to work through my own logic to arrive at my own ruling. Thank you for the opportunity to learn.
The water vapor (microscopic droplets of water) are held aloft by air density. The moment the water vapor increases in weight (such as when a person steps on it), it's not the water that gives, it's the air beneath it. You'd fall as fast as if you were trying to walk on air.
Why would the weight of the water beneath your feet increase if you were using magic to walk on it?
…In a liquid the molecules are in contact with other but free to flow.
Technically that depends on temperature. The closer to a liquid’s freezing point that liquid gets, the closer together the individual molecules get; the closer to the boiling point, the further apart the molecules get as they bounce off of each other from the added energy.
Sorry if I wasn't clear -- the operative word in that original post was magic. None of that gobbledy-gook applies
By the way, I've flavored Water Walking so that the surface of the water becomes boot-phobic. I stay up because the water is rejecting my feet
That “gobbledygook” as you called it, was plain English, and all scientifically true. I answered you with a single word. “Compression.” How is that either enough verbiage to justify use of the phrase “none of that,” or incomprehensible enough the be called “gobbledygook?”
Why should “magic“ mean science becomes inapplicable?!?
OP - Water Walk allows you to walk on liquids like they are solid surfaces, so no to clouds.
Concerning waterfalls, Water Walk allows you to walk on liquids like they are solid surfaces, and most people don't have an ability to be able to walk up a vertical solid surface.
When walking on lava, the spell doesn't make you immune to the intense heat coming from the lava.
Thanks sposta you said things better than I would have. That said I do disagree with your end result. Walking on clouds is basically walking on air not water droplets. It’s not that I have a problem with the concept of walking on clouds/air just that the spell walking on water isn’t the appropriate spell. Water walk is third level the new spell: air dancing should be level 5 or 6. How does water walking work? While it is, in the end, upto the DM here is a simple description: it’s a specialized alteration and improvement of the tensor’s floating disk spell- it creates a plane of force under your foot large enough to spread your weight out to the point where the pressure is less than the surface tension’s resistance so you are stable. When you lift your foot up the disk fades, when you put it back down it reforms at contact. Magic doesn’t ignore physics it makes use of physics. The idea of bootphobic water made me laugh- since the droplets are so much smaller than the boot they would fly away leaving only air beneath your feet and you’ll fall through the cloud like the stone you effectively are.
That “gobbledygook” as you called it, was plain English, and all scientifically true. I answered you with a single word. “Compression.” How is that either enough verbiage to justify use of the phrase “none of that,” or incomprehensible enough the be called “gobbledygook?”
Why should “magic“ mean science becomes inapplicable?!?
ANY answer to the question, "Will spell X let me do thing Y?" that relies on physics is an incorrect answer -- or rather, it's a response that isn't actually an answer at all. Whatever laws of physics your world has, magic is how you break them or manipulate them.
Every single thing said in this thread about the physics of clouds, water vapor, etc. could be true in your campaign world, and it wouldn't address the question that was asked.
Of course magic will let you walk on clouds, no matter how impossible the laws of physics you cite say walking on clouds is.
The question is whether water walking, specifically, will let you do it.
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
One thing that I tend to bring up a lot in discussions about stuff like this is that D&D is a Game first, and a Simulation second. Water Walk is a third level spell that is meant to give players some means of traversing over liquids in a safe manner. If you want to fly, then you should have used your 3rd level spellslot to cast Fly instead. Now, I've already voiced in this thread that I'm willing to bend the rules a bit for the sake of Rule of Cool, but even if you can prove that in real-world physics the nature of liquid, condensation, evaporation, whatever in a way that argues in favor of the spell doing more than what it appears to do... well, too bad. This is still a Game with simplified physics and number values that don't always translate to real-life statistics.
Why would the weight of the water beneath your feet increase if you were using magic to walk on it?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Thank you for very detailed response. You've clearly given this a lot of thought, but I think we are talking about two different things. My beef is with the player that seems to want to insist that the fantasy world is exactly like the real world, except for magic, not with the character that wants to explore an internally consistent fantasy world using the scientific method.
I think it is pretty clear that RL physics and chemistry do not apply in the D&D 5e fantasy world. Falling damage is one example, flying dragons is another, giant insects is a third. So, the degree to which the 'rules' of the real world apply to the fantasy world cannot, and should not, be relied upon by the players, particularly when their motivation is cheese and exploits. Why, in a world of cloud giants and dragons, would one assume that clouds are made of water? How many fantasy settings have been used with flat earths and stars fixed in the sky?
As others have said, the rules of D&D are generally written in natural English, which leads to a host of problems when you try to interpret them literally in the context of real world 'rules'. Create Bonfire ignites flammable objects, the auto ignition temperature of iron, in the real world, is about 1,300c, and therefore iron is flammable, so you can set a castle portcullis on fire with a cantrip?
That's why the game has a DM to say "it doesn't work that way in this world."
Ultimately I would say a cloud is not water (in game).
You cannot Water Walk to walk on clouds (in game).
The spell lists several examples... such as water, acid, mud, snow, quicksand, or lava
There are probably more but I would not count clouds... also there is water in everything in existence just about... microscopically?
Remember the spell allows you to walk on liquids... not solids, or gases, even if they contain water
Ask your DM what you can do with this spell... some may allow Cloud Dancers.
I would agree. And as for things like walking up waterfalls, as was mentioned somewhere, I would say unless you have an ability that allows you to walk on vertical surfaces you can’t. And just like walking up a down escalator at the mall, unless your speed is more than the speed of the water coming down it still wouldn’t work.
I mean, at what point do you allow it to go on? If it’s really humid in a jungle environment would you allow just walking in the air any direction because there’s water molecules around?
I would just stick to standard liquids
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The water in a cloud or fog is being held up by air. The water vapor that you'd be stepping on has a weight of its own, that being lighter than the air below it.
The moment you put any additional weight onto that water, it now weighs more than the air keeping it aloft.
The spell allows you to magically walk on water, but that water needs to have a solid surface below it to support your added weight. The spell does not make you float, it doesn't make you lighter than air. Your weight would have to be transitioned to something; that being the water, and then the added weight of you on top of the water transfers to the surface below it, which would be the air that is not magically bound to support your weight.
The water you walk on via the spell (as well as lava) would typically be held up by solid ground.
Magically being able to walk on water means that you can now "walk on water". Which would mean that water can now support your weight. It does not mean that weight/mass is removed from the equation completely.
Actually, I've flavored my Water Walking spell so that whatever water is under my feet exerts an upward force that exactly counters the downward force of my footfall. So yes, weight/mass is being removed from the equation entirely.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
So when we are talking about weight, I think shape water and water walking would do the work, even if there is no support. You could make a water ladder and use water walking to do it no?
Which would work if you are the DM. As everyone says, it all comes down to the person running the show.
Although, again I personally would say with weight/mass being canceled out with that spell, then anywhere where the humidity is high enough would allow you to fly through the air like the Fly spell.
Or send you flying straight up to the upper atmosphere like a levitate spell, since you'd technically be surrounded by water.
Let me add to Sposta’s post. The laws of physics like them or not are what ties the world together into cohesive whole that is reasonably predictable. Everything you do outside of magic you do because of physics. If your world as a whole doesn’t follow physics then it’s a mad unpredictable chaos. Yes magic seems to bypass physics but it can be considered to be following more advanced rules - similar to the ways quantum physics and relativity don’t revoke Newtonian physics they apply to special situations and reduce to Newtonian physics in normal situations. Think of fireball - while we typically think of it as creating a brief burst of super hot fire in a limited space it may actually be that you are creating a momentary time Tess era to to link that limited area to the time when it was part of he primordial fireball and then the link breaks down. Same effect either way but very different possible explanations - one technically allowed by physics the other not. Most of the game is fairly well based in science with some extraction for game mechanics. But physics (and other sciences) can pretty well explain most of what pens in game ( PLEASE NOTE I SAID MOST not all).
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To follow up physics does explain why the answer to the OPs question is a definite NO! In a liquid the molecules are in contact with other but free to flow. The first is what gives the surface the surface tension and pressure resistance that allows you to walk on them potentially. The latter is what allows them to flow and makes them a fluid. The droplets in a cloud are indeed liquid but each is widely dispersed from the others being held aloft by the movement of the air molecules in between. The air will move it of the way of your steps taking the water droplets with it. Effectively walking on a cloud with water walking is like walking on quicksand without water walking for the very same reasons. And for these same reasons no you can’t run on raindrops either!
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Compression.
Technically that depends on temperature. The closer to a liquid’s freezing point that liquid gets, the closer together the individual molecules get; the closer to the boiling point, the further apart the molecules get as they bounce off of each other from the added energy.
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Sorry if I wasn't clear -- the operative word in that original post was magic. None of that gobbledy-gook applies
By the way, I've flavored Water Walking so that the surface of the water becomes boot-phobic. I stay up because the water is rejecting my feet
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
But wouldn't you be forced upward if you take a step forward? You'd have to raise your foot in order to take a step; at which point the water vapor that it now hovers over wouldn't let you put your foot back down...
I mean, if your foot rises in order to take a step (say in some fog or a cloud), and the water vapor repels your foot entirely, then you would technically end up walking upward similar to a staircase... and does it account for any amount of water or just clouds and fog? Again, high humidity is tangible enough as far as magic could/would be concerned.
Sure I can handwave anything and everything by using the term "magic", but there has to be something to ground it to or else there's really no end to what you could abuse in this game.
Not saying that your personal preference on the matter is wrong, it's your game when you're running it, but I see several ways to break the game if ever I allowed my imagination to run rampant.
If I could use the spell Walk on Water on any form of water, even microscopic droplets suspended in the air, then I could use this one spell to cast fly, feather fall, and/or levitate... actually I take back feather fall, if the water droplets stop me from falling through them outright, it would probably just result in you going "SPLAT" in midair... if you land on your feet?...
So wait, if you wanted to dive through the cloud, would you simply do what the artic fox does and nose dive into it? And if you did that, would you end up stuck upside down because your feet can't get through the clouds/fog? lol
I completely understand and can absolutely appreciate not letting players try to get away with 🐴💩, especially when they know it’s complete 💩. Players who try to game the game like that, give ‘em an inch… you know. Eff that noise, Sposta don’t play dat. But if this thread is about any particular “beef” you may have with any one particular player, no matter how annoying or gamist, then you gave it the wrong title and put it in the wrong forum. There’s a DMs’ forum that’s perfect for threads with titles like “Dealing with a player who wants to use Water Walk to go cloud dancing.” (Or something along those lines.) But a thread titled “Water walking to walk on clouds?” in the “Tips & Tactics” forum…. Not so much. Therefore, I am not discussing your beef or that player, instead I am discussing the plausibility of using the listed spell in the way mentioned as a viable tactic. Make sense?
Everyone who has ever played 5e is well aware of the game’s issues stemming from the imprecise language in the rules. You should have seen the pages long debate I and some others were once in with a mathematician who kept insisting everyone else was calculating Cone AOEs incorrect. According to him we were getting it all wrong on account of conflating the cone’s height and length. When we finally got him to understand that the game’s plain language rules were using the colloquial definitions of “height” (measured along the vertical access) and “length” (measured along the horizontal access) he was horrified. I remember him asking me if a 6-foot tall person was, laying down, would they no longer be 6-foot tall? When I told him that, in D&D terms, that person would now be “6 feet long,” I could feel how flabbergasted he was through the internet.
Yes, certainly some things were stripped down and super simplified in transition to RAW, much like falling damage and rate of descent. But that’s because this is a game and not a simulation. It’s easy for any DM, regardless of education, to simply know that RAW, a falling PC descends 500 ft./round, and that it happens instantly at the beginning of that character’s turn. Making that easy for DMs means that arbitrating that rule happens faster and keeps the pace of combat moving. If the DM had to actually calculate a PC’s rate of descent at 32ft/second/second and determine how that would be divided across multiple creatures turns on a 6-second round, and figure out that PC’s terminal velocity without any information as to the wind resistance…. (I’m sure some people’s eyes just glazed over.) Some accuracy had to be sacrificed, it just had to. It is what it is.
As to the existence of flying dragons and giant insects however, those could absolutely be explained scientifically. Neither of those is evidence that the worlds of D&D are not subject to the laws of Physics.
Of course dragons can fly. So they aren’t aerodynamic and their wings are too short; so what? According to the principles of aerodynamics, bumble bees shouldn’t be able to fly either, but they do. It turns out that their short wingspan and complete lack of aerodynamic properties are overcome by bees simply flying in a different way. They basically create wee little, itty bitty, teeny tiny, mini hurricanes that they float around on. (I know! Cool, right!?!) But people only actually figured out how bees can fly (despite not following any known principles of aerodynamics) about 15ish years ago. It took humanity tens of thousands of years (and some advanced technology) to understand how a species older than humanity does something, and we have actually had real-live bees to study the whole time. Just because we cannot currently fathom how a dragon could fly without breaking the laws of physics doesn’t mean that dragons couldn’t fly. It just means we haven’t figured it out yet.
Of course giant insects could exist. People think that giant insects couldn’t “physically” exist (as in Physics) because of their spindly little legs. (We’ll come back to those.) Many incorrectly attribute that “impossibility” to the cube-square law. But that’s all hogwash. Did you know that we have actually discovered fossils of dragonflies the size of hawks and 3-foot long centipedes? So, clearly giant insects did exist on this planet at one point. And if they did exist then obviously them not existing now cannot be attributed to any physical laws at all. So why don’t they exist anymore? Great question. But the answer is not to be found through the physical sciences, but the natural sciences. Insects don’t use their blood to deliver oxygen throughout their bodies. Instead, they have these small holes on their bodies that let air in where the oxygen can be absorbed directly. (I know, cool right?!?) The drawback to that system is that it requires these air tubes to run all throughout their bodies to deliver oxygen, and the larger an insects is, the more air tubes it needs. So, larger insects have to dedicate proportionally more of their bodies for those air tubes, and that becomes a problem when it gets down to their spindly little legs. (Toldja I’d get back to those. 😉)
Back in the whateveriolithic era that the giant insects did exist, the atmosphere had more oxygen than it does now. Who’s to say that the worlds of D&D don’t have more oxygen rich atmospheres than Earth? Who’s to say that the evolutionary arc of the insects on those worlds didn’t hit upon a different solution to the issue? Maybe those insects evolved with additional vent holes to let in more air? Maybe they evolved to have something akin to lungs to bellow in more air? Or maybe they evolved a circular system to move the air through instead of the dead-ended air tubes Earth insects have. Maybe the giant insects of D&D evolved with platelets and use blood to deliver oxygen the same way as vertebrate animals on Earth. Just because we don’t know doesn’t mean it isn’t true. We didn’t know why insects on earth are currently all small until they X-rayed some beetles of different sizes. Since we have none of the giant insects from D&D to study, we don’t know how it is possible for them to exist, but that doesn’t mean they couldn’t.
I was fortunate enough that I was educated in a way that allows me to accept the science we know, and the things science cannot explain as both true. For example, the entire debate over evolution vs intelligent design, both can be true for me. The one does not preclude the other. I don’t have to understand how they’re both true, I just know that they are. (I don’t really understand how the internet works, but here I am.) Maybe one day people will potentially understand how both can be true, maybe they won’t. 🤷♂️ That doesn’t matter though, they’re still both true. So why can’t D&D magic and actual Physics both be true? Just because you don’t understand it? So what? Did you know how bumble bees fly or how insects breath before reading this? Doesn’t matter, they were still true.
You are absolutely correct that part of the DM’s responsibility is to be the arbiter of what is or is not 🐴💩. If you had felt that using Water Walk to walk on a cloud was 🐴💩, but had allowed it anyway, then that would be bad DMing. By calling 🐴💩 when your 🐴💩 detector started making noise, that was a good call on your part. But that doesn’t necessarily mean I agree with you. Different DMs will inevitably place the "here there be 🐴 💩” warnings on different parts of the map. And I personally don’t think that the existence of fantasy magic precludes the existence of a world governed by physical laws. Like I said before, I accept that both are true.
Would I allow that use of that spell at my table? I have been trying to decide this whole time. I expect that’s at least in part because it didn’t happen at my table. Since I wasn’t the one put on the spot, I honestly cannot say what I would have done. But I also cannot say because I really just don’t know yet. RAW, it says “any liquid surface” and then follows up with a list that includes both mud and snow. Snow is not a liquid AFAIK, it’s a pile of crystals. When it gets slushy it’s liquid, but when it’s cold enough to stay frozen it’s a collection of solids dispersed in a gasoline medium. It also specifically lists mud as a liquid this spell allows a caster to walk across. Mud is a solution of dirt and water. And as I stated in an earlier post, clouds are basically pockets of mud in the sky that are dispersed enough to stay buoyant. It’s the dust particles in the clouds that give the water vapor something to condense around. “Condensed water vapor” is just another way to say “liquid water.” That means Clouds are more of a liquid than snow is.
See my point? My issue is more to do with Crawford’s shortcomings as a designer than with a player expecting the laws of Physics to apply to D&D. I know Crawford can’t even arbitrate his own rules correctly about 1/3 of the time, he proves it openly on Twitter on a regular basis. And I know physics is real because physics is real. And I know magic exists in D&D because duhh. And I know that both science and magic can both coexist whether or not I can understand how. Personally, I’m more inclined to go with the player on this one.
So I suppose thanks are in order, and therefore happily extend them. In writing this response I was able to work through my own logic to arrive at my own ruling. Thank you for the opportunity to learn.
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That “gobbledygook” as you called it, was plain English, and all scientifically true. I answered you with a single word. “Compression.” How is that either enough verbiage to justify use of the phrase “none of that,” or incomprehensible enough the be called “gobbledygook?”
Why should “magic“ mean science becomes inapplicable?!?
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OP - Water Walk allows you to walk on liquids like they are solid surfaces, so no to clouds.
Concerning waterfalls, Water Walk allows you to walk on liquids like they are solid surfaces, and most people don't have an ability to be able to walk up a vertical solid surface.
When walking on lava, the spell doesn't make you immune to the intense heat coming from the lava.
Thanks sposta you said things better than I would have. That said I do disagree with your end result. Walking on clouds is basically walking on air not water droplets. It’s not that I have a problem with the concept of walking on clouds/air just that the spell walking on water isn’t the appropriate spell. Water walk is third level the new spell: air dancing should be level 5 or 6. How does water walking work? While it is, in the end, upto the DM here is a simple description: it’s a specialized alteration and improvement of the tensor’s floating disk spell- it creates a plane of force under your foot large enough to spread your weight out to the point where the pressure is less than the surface tension’s resistance so you are stable. When you lift your foot up the disk fades, when you put it back down it reforms at contact. Magic doesn’t ignore physics it makes use of physics. The idea of bootphobic water made me laugh- since the droplets are so much smaller than the boot they would fly away leaving only air beneath your feet and you’ll fall through the cloud like the stone you effectively are.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
ANY answer to the question, "Will spell X let me do thing Y?" that relies on physics is an incorrect answer -- or rather, it's a response that isn't actually an answer at all. Whatever laws of physics your world has, magic is how you break them or manipulate them.
Every single thing said in this thread about the physics of clouds, water vapor, etc. could be true in your campaign world, and it wouldn't address the question that was asked.
Of course magic will let you walk on clouds, no matter how impossible the laws of physics you cite say walking on clouds is.
The question is whether water walking, specifically, will let you do it.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
One thing that I tend to bring up a lot in discussions about stuff like this is that D&D is a Game first, and a Simulation second. Water Walk is a third level spell that is meant to give players some means of traversing over liquids in a safe manner. If you want to fly, then you should have used your 3rd level spellslot to cast Fly instead. Now, I've already voiced in this thread that I'm willing to bend the rules a bit for the sake of Rule of Cool, but even if you can prove that in real-world physics the nature of liquid, condensation, evaporation, whatever in a way that argues in favor of the spell doing more than what it appears to do... well, too bad. This is still a Game with simplified physics and number values that don't always translate to real-life statistics.
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