So when my DM asked what I thought my character would look like at level 20, my answer was initially a bit of a boring one. She has some magic items I want for her, she's with X NPC, she has set up a temple dedicated to her god with the Temple of the Gods spell somewhere in the city, and she has a Title (something that all the cool higher up government members of the city the campaign takes place in have).
But then a while later an idea popped into my head, initially as a "hey, wouldn't that be funny and dope, haha?" kind of thing. But then I kept thinking about it. What if my PC became a werebear? The idea latched onto me like a mind flayer tadpole and I couldn't let go of it and I brought it up. My DM said he'd try to work it in somehow and that I'd have to try and search for it.
I picked werebear because they are like the best therianthrope in 5e mechanics-wise for a PC. They are NG and have the highest strength score. I also just kept thinking of it tonight and looking at their statblock again and the PC werecreature curse rules, they also do the best damage. A 2d10 bite and 2d8 claws! The rules for PC werecreatures states as follows:
Now the question is, should I take Divine Strike or Blessed Strikes?
Feature Text:
The trick part of this question is that I'm a Trickery cleric, and my damage type for Divine Strike is poison. BUT! While poison is a terrible damage type that basically no PC should try to deal, it does proc on each attack unlike Blessed Strikes, which is limited to once per turn. And as we saw, the rules for PC werecreature curses state that you gain all actions of the statblock that don't involve equipment. Which can be argued to include the werebear's Multiattack action. Would you say I keep the Multiattack action even though it also says that when in humanoid form i get two greataxe attacks? My DM said this campaign might end at 15th level at the highest, at least that's his estimate.
Another thought experiment: If this was a different subclass with a non-poison damage type for divine strikes, what would you pick in that case instead?
And as we saw, the rules for PC werecreature curses state that you gain all actions of the statblock that don't involve equipment.
I don't think that follows from "the character is proficient with the lycanthrope's natural attacks," or is there additional wording that you didn't include in your post?
Even if so, I don't think it's intentional that an effect outside of any class/race/magic item would grant you a multiattacking 2d8 weapon. That's kind of nuts.
Aside from all that, your Divine Strike feature is also once per turn, so you're really just comparing +1d8 poison to +1d8 radiant.
And as we saw, the rules for PC werecreature curses state that you gain all actions of the statblock that don't involve equipment.
I don't think that follows from "the character is proficient with the lycanthrope's natural attacks," or is there additional wording that you didn't include in your post?
Even if so, I don't think it's intentional that an effect outside of any class/race/magic item would grant you a multiattacking 2d8 weapon. That's kind of nuts.
Aside from all that, your Divine Strike feature is also once per turn, so you're really just comparing +1d8 poison to +1d8 radiant.
The screenshot shows all the rules for what you get from any therianthrope curse, it then goes on to state the specific curses later in the text below the screenshot. It says that you gain any actions that don't involve equipment.
Thanks for pointing out my glaring mistake tho lol! :) (I misremembered the feature)
Divine strike versus blessed strikes is no contest in favor of Blessed strikes before 14th level. Having the opportunity to get the bonus on a cantrip while having everything else equal is a no brainer. After 14th, that extra d8 kicks in and makes it interesting. If you don't take an attack cantrip, sticking with Divine Strike will be better. If you plan on rarely using an attack cantrip, Divine Strike will be better as long as you don't use the cantrip much.
However, if you use the cantrip semi regularly, you have to consider the loss of damage before 14th against the amount of damage after. Since you're thinking that the campaign will end at 15, you'll only have 2ish levels of 2d8 damage on melee attacks versus 6 levels of potential damage on cantrips before as well as the potential cantrip damage after.
Since most campaigns don't get to 14, Blessed Strikes will almost always be better.
It's interesting to contrast Blessed Strikes against potent spellcasting, especially for primary casters. Blessed strikes is 1d8 (4.5 average damage) on cantrips while potent spellcasting adds your wisdom modifier. Since most cleric cantrips force saves, most won't be able to crit negating that possible advantage (Arcana Cleric and others that let you pull cantrips from other spell lists are the only ways to get [italics]Cleric[/italics] cantrips that are attacks that I'm aware of at this time). That means that the times that potent spellcasting is better is when you have a +5 modifier which most clerics that reach Cleric 8 will want to have.
Divine strike versus blessed strikes is no contest in favor of Blessed strikes before 14th level. Having the opportunity to get the bonus on a cantrip while having everything else equal is a no brainer. After 14th, that extra d8 kicks in and makes it interesting. If you don't take an attack cantrip, sticking with Divine Strike will be better. If you plan on rarely using an attack cantrip, Divine Strike will be better as long as you don't use the cantrip much.
However, if you use the cantrip semi regularly, you have to consider the loss of damage before 14th against the amount of damage after. Since you're thinking that the campaign will end at 15, you'll only have 2ish levels of 2d8 damage on melee attacks versus 6 levels of potential damage on cantrips before as well as the potential cantrip damage after.
Since most campaigns don't get to 14, Blessed Strikes will almost always be better.
It's interesting to contrast Blessed Strikes against potent spellcasting, especially for primary casters. Blessed strikes is 1d8 (4.5 average damage) on cantrips while potent spellcasting adds your wisdom modifier. Since most cleric cantrips force saves, most won't be able to crit negating that possible advantage (Arcana Cleric and others that let you pull cantrips from other spell lists are the only ways to get [italics]Cleric[/italics] cantrips that are attacks that I'm aware of at this time). That means that the times that potent spellcasting is better is when you have a +5 modifier which most clerics that reach Cleric 8 will want to have.
Even after 14th level, there's still no contest. If a divine strike cleric with a greatclub starts at 16 strength and bumps their strength at levels 4 and 8, they're only doing marginally more damage on average than sacred flame (the biggest gaps are between divine strike scaling and cantrip scaling, so levels 8-10 and 14-16). Toll the dead outpaces them by level 10 (greatclub outdamages toll the dead at levels 1-4 and 8-10, but after that it's all over). And bear in mind that this is with two ASIs devoted to strength instead of wisdom.
With blessed strikes, it just gets silly. Compared to that same strength-boosting cleric with a greatclub and divine strike, sacred flame with blessed strikes is neck-and-neck for most of the level progression and outdamages the greatclub somewhat at levels 11-13 and 17-21. Toll the dead leaves both of them in the dust starting at level 5.
Divine strike versus blessed strikes is no contest in favor of Blessed strikes before 14th level. Having the opportunity to get the bonus on a cantrip while having everything else equal is a no brainer. After 14th, that extra d8 kicks in and makes it interesting. If you don't take an attack cantrip, sticking with Divine Strike will be better. If you plan on rarely using an attack cantrip, Divine Strike will be better as long as you don't use the cantrip much.
However, if you use the cantrip semi regularly, you have to consider the loss of damage before 14th against the amount of damage after. Since you're thinking that the campaign will end at 15, you'll only have 2ish levels of 2d8 damage on melee attacks versus 6 levels of potential damage on cantrips before as well as the potential cantrip damage after.
Since most campaigns don't get to 14, Blessed Strikes will almost always be better.
It's interesting to contrast Blessed Strikes against potent spellcasting, especially for primary casters. Blessed strikes is 1d8 (4.5 average damage) on cantrips while potent spellcasting adds your wisdom modifier. Since most cleric cantrips force saves, most won't be able to crit negating that possible advantage (Arcana Cleric and others that let you pull cantrips from other spell lists are the only ways to get [italics]Cleric[/italics] cantrips that are attacks that I'm aware of at this time). That means that the times that potent spellcasting is better is when you have a +5 modifier which most clerics that reach Cleric 8 will want to have.
Even after 14th level, there's still no contest. If a divine strike cleric with a greatclub starts at 16 strength and bumps their strength at levels 4 and 8, they're only doing marginally more damage on average than sacred flame (the biggest gaps are between divine strike scaling and cantrip scaling, so levels 8-10 and 14-16). Toll the dead outpaces them by level 10 (greatclub outdamages toll the dead at levels 1-4 and 8-10, but after that it's all over). And bear in mind that this is with two ASIs devoted to strength instead of wisdom.
With blessed strikes, it just gets silly. Compared to that same strength-boosting cleric with a greatclub and divine strike, sacred flame with blessed strikes is neck-and-neck for most of the level progression and outdamages the greatclub somewhat at levels 11-13 and 17-21. Toll the dead leaves both of them in the dust starting at level 5.
My analysis was strictly comparing (primarily) melee to melee and casting to casting. It wasn't worried about which was better between the two since I didn't read the OP as worrying about which was better. The casting part was even added as an afterthought when I saw that potent spellcasting didn't scale with level like Divine strike does.
I didn't read it that way either, I was just pointing out that from a purely mathematical perspective there's even more of a reason to go with blessed strikes. Weapon attacks are only different after level 14, which a lot of campaigns don't even reach, so there's not much of a reason not to pick the one that also boosts cantrips. And then as you progress in level you can transition to more of a cantrip cleric if you so choose, or stick with weapon attacks and only be a d8 behind where divine strike would be.
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So when my DM asked what I thought my character would look like at level 20, my answer was initially a bit of a boring one. She has some magic items I want for her, she's with X NPC, she has set up a temple dedicated to her god with the Temple of the Gods spell somewhere in the city, and she has a Title (something that all the cool higher up government members of the city the campaign takes place in have).
But then a while later an idea popped into my head, initially as a "hey, wouldn't that be funny and dope, haha?" kind of thing. But then I kept thinking about it. What if my PC became a werebear? The idea latched onto me like a mind flayer tadpole and I couldn't let go of it and I brought it up. My DM said he'd try to work it in somehow and that I'd have to try and search for it.
I picked werebear because they are like the best therianthrope in 5e mechanics-wise for a PC. They are NG and have the highest strength score. I also just kept thinking of it tonight and looking at their statblock again and the PC werecreature curse rules, they also do the best damage. A 2d10 bite and 2d8 claws! The rules for PC werecreatures states as follows:
Now just to get this out of the way, yes, natural weapons do in fact count as weapons.
Now the question is, should I take Divine Strike or Blessed Strikes?
Feature Text:
The trick part of this question is that I'm a Trickery cleric, and my damage type for Divine Strike is poison. BUT! While poison is a terrible damage type that basically no PC should try to deal, it does proc on each attack unlike Blessed Strikes, which is limited to once per turn. And as we saw, the rules for PC werecreature curses state that you gain all actions of the statblock that don't involve equipment. Which can be argued to include the werebear's Multiattack action. Would you say I keep the Multiattack action even though it also says that when in humanoid form i get two greataxe attacks? My DM said this campaign might end at 15th level at the highest, at least that's his estimate.
Another thought experiment: If this was a different subclass with a non-poison damage type for divine strikes, what would you pick in that case instead?
Er ek geng, þat er í þeim skóm er ek valda.
UwU
I don't think that follows from "the character is proficient with the lycanthrope's natural attacks," or is there additional wording that you didn't include in your post?
Even if so, I don't think it's intentional that an effect outside of any class/race/magic item would grant you a multiattacking 2d8 weapon. That's kind of nuts.
Aside from all that, your Divine Strike feature is also once per turn, so you're really just comparing +1d8 poison to +1d8 radiant.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Take the poisoner feat and Divine strike, Ask the DM about multiattack.
The screenshot shows all the rules for what you get from any therianthrope curse, it then goes on to state the specific curses later in the text below the screenshot. It says that you gain any actions that don't involve equipment.
Thanks for pointing out my glaring mistake tho lol! :) (I misremembered the feature)
Er ek geng, þat er í þeim skóm er ek valda.
UwU
Divine Strike only goes off once per turn. Says so right in the quoted text.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Divine strike versus blessed strikes is no contest in favor of Blessed strikes before 14th level. Having the opportunity to get the bonus on a cantrip while having everything else equal is a no brainer. After 14th, that extra d8 kicks in and makes it interesting. If you don't take an attack cantrip, sticking with Divine Strike will be better. If you plan on rarely using an attack cantrip, Divine Strike will be better as long as you don't use the cantrip much.
However, if you use the cantrip semi regularly, you have to consider the loss of damage before 14th against the amount of damage after. Since you're thinking that the campaign will end at 15, you'll only have 2ish levels of 2d8 damage on melee attacks versus 6 levels of potential damage on cantrips before as well as the potential cantrip damage after.
Since most campaigns don't get to 14, Blessed Strikes will almost always be better.
It's interesting to contrast Blessed Strikes against potent spellcasting, especially for primary casters. Blessed strikes is 1d8 (4.5 average damage) on cantrips while potent spellcasting adds your wisdom modifier. Since most cleric cantrips force saves, most won't be able to crit negating that possible advantage (Arcana Cleric and others that let you pull cantrips from other spell lists are the only ways to get [italics]Cleric[/italics] cantrips that are attacks that I'm aware of at this time). That means that the times that potent spellcasting is better is when you have a +5 modifier which most clerics that reach Cleric 8 will want to have.
Even after 14th level, there's still no contest. If a divine strike cleric with a greatclub starts at 16 strength and bumps their strength at levels 4 and 8, they're only doing marginally more damage on average than sacred flame (the biggest gaps are between divine strike scaling and cantrip scaling, so levels 8-10 and 14-16). Toll the dead outpaces them by level 10 (greatclub outdamages toll the dead at levels 1-4 and 8-10, but after that it's all over). And bear in mind that this is with two ASIs devoted to strength instead of wisdom.
With blessed strikes, it just gets silly. Compared to that same strength-boosting cleric with a greatclub and divine strike, sacred flame with blessed strikes is neck-and-neck for most of the level progression and outdamages the greatclub somewhat at levels 11-13 and 17-21. Toll the dead leaves both of them in the dust starting at level 5.
My analysis was strictly comparing (primarily) melee to melee and casting to casting. It wasn't worried about which was better between the two since I didn't read the OP as worrying about which was better. The casting part was even added as an afterthought when I saw that potent spellcasting didn't scale with level like Divine strike does.
I didn't read it that way either, I was just pointing out that from a purely mathematical perspective there's even more of a reason to go with blessed strikes. Weapon attacks are only different after level 14, which a lot of campaigns don't even reach, so there's not much of a reason not to pick the one that also boosts cantrips. And then as you progress in level you can transition to more of a cantrip cleric if you so choose, or stick with weapon attacks and only be a d8 behind where divine strike would be.