Cunning action, which allows you to Hide as a bonus action, something no other class gets at their level.
I might be misunderstanding Cunning Action. Using a bonus action to Hide, Dash, or Disengage sounds like it would be incredibly useful in combat, but doesn't seem to have any utility at all outside of initiative.
I'm also not convinced of how useful the "Hide" action is by itself. You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, so no hiding in long, open hallways, for instance.
I guess "Scouting" or "Infiltrating" are better words to cover the set of abilities I was trying to measure. Get in, get out, don't get caught, don't enter initiative. I expected the Rogue to have the most tools for that specific scenario, but it seems like their abilities are more geared toward stealthy combat than stealthy roleplay. Which is fantastic, don't get me wrong! They seem to be the slipperiest class in combat, I just assumed they would be the slipperiest out of it as well.
Thanks again for all of the information! Rogues are quite a bit different than I expected, but they're a really neat class.
Your logic misses the contingency "Get in, get out, don't get caught but if you do. Exfiltration is sometimes violent. Yes, discovery could compromise whatever larger plan for which the scout is deployed, but capture is even more compromising.
I'd also say you're DEX favoring Bard becomes MAD compared to the straight Rogue, and a Bard really needs its CHA for the spellcasting and Bard features. They'll both also need decent INT/WIS for the actual acquisition of information. Rogues I think are more efficiently built for this work, though Bards make better social spies actually embedded to socially engineer intelligence (and it's basically the point of the Whisper Bard, which is basically the Bard assassin equivalent).
Full disclosure, I prefer to not make the two classes compete and instead my player preference is Rogue/Bard multiclass.
Some DMs (or at least me) will run things like reconnaissance and infiltration where negotiating space while avoiding detection is paramount with the action economy in place, assessing progress of infiltration on a measured map and timed to turn (especially if the target has things like clocked patrols etc), so cunning action can come into play outside of initiative. In those instances the Rogue can be literally faster than the Bard.
Rogues are also very SAD (single attribute dependent).
Hmmm dex for most of their skills and fighting. Con for hitpoints, wisdom for finding traps and hidden treasure, int to investigate how to get around traps and research marks, charisma to talk their way out of trouble or get passed guards, strength to be able to climb garden fences or up to the open window on the second floor. Rogues are for sure not SAD.
By that logic no class is SAD, IF you expect them to do literally everything. Rogues are about all the dex-based abilities of which there are many, and they are all thematic. They also get a ton of skill proficiencies and expertise, and later they get reliable talent. So that makes them good (or even great, depending) at skills even if they rely on an ability score that is only a 10. Now if you add certain subclasses like Soul Knife, dial that up to 11 because they're adding dice to every skill of which they're proficient.
Every class benefits from Con. Beyond that, all an effective Rogue needs is Dex. If you have high Dex and Con as a rogue, everything else can literally be 10 and you can still be very effective and well rounded.
Now look at Bards. If it wants to take the place of a Roque, now you're relying on Charisma, Constitution, and Dexterity. Sacrifice some Charisma and now your spells are weaker. That's kind of a bigger deal than having a few marginally lower skill checks. And no Cunning action. Worth noting, Rogues can do very respectable single target damage, something Bards suck at.
Can Bards take on Rogue duties in the absence of a Rogue? Sure. Them and I would say Rangers can as well. Can they out-Rogue an actual Rogue? No.
If the Rogue isn't the master of sneak, what are they? I'd love to hear your thoughts. Do you like Rogues for your sneaky characters? Do you prefer Bards? Something else entirely? If you do love the Rogue, why? Let me know!
You did an awful lot of goalpost moving in your opening post, but I'll say that using the rubrics you seem to be assuming, a Warlock is better than a Bard or a Rogue. Your rubrics are weird, though - e.g. you ignore the finite nature of spell slots, even though Rogues are generally specialists in resourceless warfare and are relatively better later in the adventuring day when the rest of the party is substantially more tapped.
Original Poster has seen the Generalist and thinks wow, they can do so much more, not realizing the power of a specialist.
Since he likes Bard, lets compare 3 bard subclass abilities. All three have a 3rd level ability involving Bardic Inspiration. Normally it is just a d6 (more later) bonus to your choice of Ability Check, Attack Roll, or Saving Throw of an ally.
Lore lets you ALSO apply it to a penalty to the save of an enemy. Eloquence lets you ALSO apply it as a penalty to an attack roll, ability check or damage roll of an enemy. Both of these abilities add variety to what you can do, but not a power increase.
Creation on the other hand lets you roll the d6 twice, and use the higher one when added to an ability check twice, add the d6 to both the attack AND the damage roll (and more), grants temp hp when it is added to a saving throw. Creation does not give you more to do, it makes what you do more powerful.
Bards can learn to do MORE than what the rogue does, but the Rogue does it BETTER. Those little advantages you don't pay attention to about Rogue are very very important to the rogue.
Rogues are better at stealth than Bards. It is true that if the bard chooses to learn Pass without trace (Really wasting a Magical Secret on a 2nd level spell?? not taking counterspell ? fireball? Revivify? Thunderstep? Spirit Guardians? ) they can, for up to an hour per casting come close to what the Rogue does. But not in anti-magic. Not when counterspelled. As long as they are concentrating.
Oh, and while they are using it, their rogue also benefits (spell affects allies). So the rogue is STILL better at stealth than the Bard. But the bard has used up a 2nd level spell slot to help the Rogue be better at stealth. Thank you.
Your logic misses the contingency "Get in, get out, don't get caught but if you do. Exfiltration is sometimes violent. Yes, discovery could compromise whatever larger plan for which the scout is deployed, but capture is even more compromising.
This is an excellent point. Suggestion may help out in that case, but on a Dex build the save is lower, and now we're really starting to stretch those spell slots.
Some DMs (or at least me) will run things like reconnaissance and infiltration where negotiating space while avoiding detection is paramount with the action economy in place, assessing progress of infiltration on a measured map and timed to turn (especially if the target has things like clocked patrols etc), so cunning action can come into play outside of initiative. In those instances the Rogue can be literally faster than the Bard.
This is a situation I hadn't considered. Tightly timed sneaking on a measured map makes Cunning Action considerably more useful outside of combat.
Original Poster has seen the Generalist and thinks wow, they can do so much more, not realizing the power of a specialist.
I'll admit, I'm a sucker for versatility. I picked the Bard because of the abilities I knew they had access to (expertise, casting, viability with Dex)
Bards can learn to do MORE than what the rogue does, but the Rogue does it BETTER. Those little advantages you don't pay attention to about Rogue are very very important to the rogue.
Rogues are better at stealth than Bards. It is true that if the bard chooses to learn Pass without trace (Really wasting a Magical Secret on a 2nd level spell?? not taking counterspell ? fireball? Revivify? Thunderstep? Spirit Guardians? ) they can, for up to an hour per casting come close to what the Rogue does. But not in anti-magic. Not when counterspelled. As long as they are concentrating.
This is kind of the information I was looking for when I made the post. What makes the Rogue better at stealth than a Bard (or other classes)?
What little advantages does the Rogue have? The only class feature relating to sneaking around (again, out of combat is sort of the idea) I've seen is from the Thief Archetype, Supreme Sneak. Cunning Action admittedly allows for blazing fast hiding in situations like the one above, but there still has to be something to hide behind.
A caster with Pass Without Trace "comes close to what the Rogue does"? From what I understand, the Rogue leaves footprints and at, let's say, level 6, has an average stealth roll of 20.5. A Dex Bard (or any Dex class with expertise in stealth) has the same average stealth roll sans magic. Add invisibility and it becomes something like ~24 with advantage (not to mention the ability to hide anywhere and twice the chance to critically hide)
With Pass Without Trace, the average is 30.5 and you leave no tracks. I'm not sure I see that as "coming close" to the Rogue.
Like I said, I'm new to the game, so if I'm misunderstanding something, let me know! I want my Rogue to be better at infiltration than my Bard. I just don't see how they can be.
BravoTango, If you want the most versatile and complete skill monkey in the game, that would be a Soul Knife Rogue.
First, Rogues start off with Thieves Tool proficiency, plus 4 skills. Now pick a race with 2 skills, many of which make great Rogues. Then pick up two more skills from your background.
That's EIGHT total skills, plus Theives Tools proficiency, just to start off. Then Rogues gain two Expertise at level 1, and then two more at level 6. And then reliable talent at level 11.
But what makes the Soul Knife the best skill monkey in the game is this:
Psionic Power
3rd-level Soulknife feature
You harbor a wellspring of psionic energy within yourself. This energy is represented by your Psionic Energy dice, which are each a d6. You have a number of these dice equal to twice your proficiency bonus, and they fuel various psionic powers you have, which are detailed below.
Some of your powers expend the Psionic Energy die they use, as specified in a power’s description, and you can’t use a power if it requires you to use a die when your dice are all expended. You regain all your expended Psionic Energy dice when you finish a long rest. In addition, as a bonus action, you can regain one expended Psionic Energy die, but you can’t do so again until you finish a short or long rest.
When you reach certain levels in this class, the size of your Psionic Energy dice increases: at 5th level (d8), 11th level (d10), and 17th level (d12). The powers below use your Psionic Energy dice.
Psi-Bolstered Knack.When your nonpsionic training fails you, your psionic power can help: if you fail an ability check using a skill or tool with which you have proficiency, you can roll one Psionic Energy die and add the number rolled to the check, potentially turning failure into success. You expend the die only if the roll succeeds.
Now consider you're adding those dice to EIGHT skills, plus thieves tools, plus two more tools (if you choose them) from your background. There IS no better do it all in the game. Bards get jack of all trades, which is cool, but at levels 1 through 8 it's only a +1 to your non-proficient skill checks. Psi-Bolstered Knack is really impactful.
Side Note: If you multi-class into Bard, Psi-Bolstered Knack will apply to literally every skill in the game due to Jack of all Trades.
Some DMs (or at least me) will run things like reconnaissance and infiltration where negotiating space while avoiding detection is paramount with the action economy in place, assessing progress of infiltration on a measured map and timed to turn (especially if the target has things like clocked patrols etc), so cunning action can come into play outside of initiative. In those instances the Rogue can be literally faster than the Bard.
This is a situation I hadn't considered. Tightly timed sneaking on a measured map makes Cunning Action considerably more useful outside of combat.
It's pretty essential way of game running if you're dealing with a heist sort of scenario. I mean if part of role playing the prep of the heist involved getting maps and plans, the players should darn well expect to play some of the movements out on the map. Even if you do a sort of theater of the mind, Cunning Action sort of implies that Rogues are just faster than most.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
On a side note, in terms of damage output, Rogues DO have access to Sneak Attack... But Lore Bards get Fireball.
I don't think there's been enough emphasis on this logic. You're comparing what every rogue can do versus a very specific application of one subclass feature. This is like saying rogues are better at charming people because the Swashbuckler's Panache is one of the few consequence-free charms in the game and they can spam it indefinitely.
Bards are designed to be pretty terrible at damage. Yes, you can bend over backwards to be mediocre at it, but you're fighting against the class design and as such you'll be less effective. Rogues are very reliable in this respect. That's certainly not the only issue with OP's logic, but I think the other points have been covered enough.
Side Note: If you multi-class into Bard, Psi-Bolstered Knack will apply to literally every skill in the game due to Jack of all Trades.
I don't think Jack of All Trades makes you actually proficient in all things.
I thought I remembered reading that it was ruled that it counts. But I don't see anything on Sage Advice, except that Rogues reliable talent does not apply. I may be wrong on that one.
Side Note: If you multi-class into Bard, Psi-Bolstered Knack will apply to literally every skill in the game due to Jack of all Trades.
I don't think Jack of All Trades makes you actually proficient in all things.
I thought I remembered reading that it was ruled that it counts. But I don't see anything on Sage Advice, except that Rogues reliable talent does not apply. I may be wrong on that one.
If it made you proficient, it would shut itself off. Like am infinite loop. You're not proficient, so you add this bonus making you proficient, so you don't add the bonus, so you're not proficient, so...
I guess you could argue there's a difference between a check "that uses your proficiency bonus" and a check "with which you have proficiency." But honestly, at that point, we're splitting hairs in a way that's not useful. Ask your DM if your Soulknife Bard multiclass cheese will work at her table.
You're comparing what every rogue can do versus a very specific application of one subclass feature.
Sorry about the confusion there. I wasn't really interested in comparing them based on damage, and I wasn't trying to imply that Fireball is inherently better than Sneak Attack. I just included that thought to point out that building a Bard in a sneaky way doesn't completely neuter their combat abilities. It didn't quite fit into the question I was trying ask, which is why I called it a side note.
This is like saying rogues are better at charming people because the Swashbuckler's Panache is one of the few consequence-free charms in the game and they can spam it indefinitely.
I don't have access to Xanathar's, so I haven't looked at the Swashbuckler much, but they sound like a pretty cool subclass! I have a special fondness for pirates.
That's certainly not the only issue with OP's logic, but I think the other points have been covered enough.
Would you mind elaborating? A lot of people have been saying that, but I've really only gotten a few answers. I don't have much experience playing the game, so I was hoping someone could tell me why they thought the Rogue was the best at sneaking.
Like I mentioned before, I didn't see many class features that added to that particular aspect.
Cunning Action is admittedly more useful than I thought at first, but does it really make that much of a difference?
Is hiding really that reliable without invisibility? I guess the DM could specifically plant things for you to hide behind, but that feels like a bit of a gamble, and makes open hallways pretty scary.
What is it that makes the Rogue better at stealth than anyone else that puts all their points in Dex?
At first I thought I was just missing the point of the class, and that maybe rogues were stabby bois/gals that were also pretty good at stealth and thievery. But I keep getting told that Rogues are the sneakiest class, way better at infiltrating than others, etc., but without anyone actually telling me why.
(As another side note, again, I just picked the Bard as an example. I'm not attached to the class or anything, I just thought it would make a good comparison, since it had access to spellcasting, expertise, and isn't uncommonly built around Dex.)
You're correct that sneaking with magic is better than sneaking without magic. However, the BEST sneaking happens when someone uses magic... ON the Rogue. Like, yeah, the Rogue can't do it herself, but if someone puts Invisibility on her, she's basically undetectable. None of a Rogue's features use verbal components, to begin with. (Fireball does.)
There's definitely a degree to which this disparity is inflated by DMs and players. Just like how most Fighters and Barbarians don't get spells, so they're sometimes artificially boosted in the things they actually do have, like drawing more aggro from monsters, or impressing people with feats of strength. But at least with the Rogue, it's close. They really are quite sneaky.
I think maybe you're over stating what we've been saying. I don't think any of us have been saying that the Rogue is the unmatched best at sneaking that no other class can even compare. Other classes can also be good at stealth. The Rogue does have a lot of abilities that help with sneaky type jobs, though, and the combination of all of them is something that is much more difficult for another class to get all in combination. Sneaky jobs are not just about the ability to move about undetected, it's also about moving quickly while undetected (Cunning Action), about being able to silence the occasional witness quickly (Sneak Attack), about the myriad Skills that it can take to get through a heist (expertise in Investigation, Perception, Deception, etc), as well as being able to evade or disarm the traps on the way in. Expertise in Thieves Tools is something pretty unique to Rogues, the only other class able to get that is the Artificer and it is more difficult for them to max out Dexterity along with that because they are concerned with Intelligence as well.
I think you're mono focusing on one particular bit and not looking at the class as a whole.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Cunning Action is admittedly more useful than I thought at first, but does it really make that much of a difference? Is hiding really that reliable without invisibility? I guess the DM could specifically plant things for you to hide behind, but that feels like a bit of a gamble, and makes open hallways pretty scary. What is it that makes the Rogue better at stealth than anyone else that puts all their points in Dex?
It comes down to 3 things: 1) Sneak Attack, with "hide" being a great way to get advantage, at least for ranged attacks (while also avoiding getting attacked, if you time it right), 2) Cunning Action making this a viable strategy, 3) expertise in Stealth plus a SAD Dex-based build making it pretty reliable and common.
So, "hide" will depend on how your DM rules things, and how well everyone has read all the little separate parts to the hiding and stealth rules, but in general it's about finding a good hiding spot each turn. This is ultimately up to your DM's judgement (both determining what is and is not a hiding spot, and providing hiding spots on the battlefield --- though things like Invisiblity and Skulker can make things way easier.)
In my experience, the simplest metric (interpretive, not strict RAW): find a place that provides at least 3/4 cover against all the enemies, and beat the highest passive perception with your Stealth roll. Add in roll Stealth at disadvantage if you are re-using a hiding spot (same square) in the combat, and you even have a potential for tactical challenge.
(And note that Reliable Talent, later in the game, will even make that disadvantage mostly irrelevant, if you have high Dex and expertise in Stealth.)
Would you mind elaborating? A lot of people have been saying that, but I've really only gotten a few answers. I don't have much experience playing the game, so I was hoping someone could tell me why they thought the Rogue was the best at sneaking.
I can explain. First, if you only compare two classes that max their Dex and choose Stealth as a skill, both classes are going to be the same. But there are a number of other factors.
Rogue gets Expertise, and due to the mechanics of the Rogue's Cunning Action in combat, the player will almost certainly choose Stealth as one of their Expertise right from level 1. Bards also get Expertise, but Rogues get it earlier. In addition, the Rogue maxing its Dex will help it sneak AND it will bolster its main combat stat. Bards rely on Charisma as its main combat stat, so if it maxes Dex it will need to hinder its spell casting stat, or Constitution and they're already fragile. Last, Bard's only get 3 skills while Rogues get 4 plus Thieves Tools as a freebee, and Bards tend to be prioritized in Cha skills like Persuasion and Performance.
As a Dex focused class Rogues get the most skills of any class and will typically want to focus on "sneaky" skills like Stealth, Slight of Hand, and Acrobatics, which all rely on Dex. And if you really want to lean into the cat burglar thing, it's too easy to put your Strength at 10 and select Athletics as a proficiency or even Expertise. Now you can climb well, walk across sketchy surfaces with high Acrobatics, pick locks, and do all the infiltrator/thief type things.
That's not to say you can't build something like a Bard or Ranger who's competent and pulling Rogue duties, but the Rogue is the best in the business. With that said, you may run across a specific task like scouting ahead, and the Wizard's familiar or a Druid's shapeshift can do that task better than a Rogue. But as for a single character doing ALL the sneaky things in one package, the Rogue is the best and unlike spell casters they expend no resources doing them.
I am going to go through the standard rogue abilities. Not the subclass abilities, nor the optional Tasha ones, those are too many and a whole new level of stuff.
But lets take a look at them, why Rogues like them. Sneak Attack is the big one. It is the damage equalizer. Huge boost to damage ONCE per round, rather than the standard fighter etc. attempts to do more attacks. It is pitifully easy to sneak attack almost every round. Big damage boost that Bards do not get. (Bards get dice too - Bardic inspiration. Which is support - it goes to OTHER people, not the bard.)
Bards get jack of all trades = HALF proficiencies and only 3 real ones (plus musical ones). Rogues get 4 real ones plus thieves tools AND Expertise earlier than Bards. At levels 1-2 and 6-9 Bards are half as good at everything, Rogues are TWICE as good at the things they want.
Cunning Action, Dash, Disengage and Hide. Dash means you can up there in or out of combat quickly. Massive extra movement. Disengage means no AoOs. Hide is pretty common. This is NOT something hard to do. List of places I have hid behind:
Tree
Pillar
Under Table
larger person (lightfoot halfling)
minor Illusion (5 ft cube)
desk
pool of water (risky - nasty fish were in it)
Uncanny Dodge = Half damage to single attack costing you only a reaction. Unlimited uses.
Evasion = Dex Saves are now fail a save = half damage, make a save = no damage. Unlimited uses, costs you NOTHING. Not just spells, dragon breath is the perfect example.
Extra ASI/feat at tenth level
Reliable talent = nothing lower than a 10 when you roll for all skills you have. Including any you got from your background or race. Where the bard is OK on everything, the Rogue is now better at the skills they took.
10 ft blindsense. Incredible. Works in Darkness, Fog Cloud, Sleet Storm, and any other heavy obscurement.
Slippery Mind = Wisdom saves. You are now proficient in TWO of the common saves in addition to an uncommon save.
Elusive = no one has advantage on you. KEY defensive ability.
Capstone ability = once per short/long rest auto hit or auto 20 on ability check. No chance of missing.
The bard has good stuff, but not this stuff. The thief is better at specific skills, while the bard is not bad at everything. The Bard has lots of nice things it does for OTHER people. The Rogue has a bunch of things that let them personally do things much better. More mobile, more hiding, more avoiding AoO, more saves, more defensive abilities.
As I said earlier, if the bard chooses to use Magical Secrets spells to compensate for his lack of stealth, that can also be used on the Rogue. Unless the Bard is a scumbag, the Rogue will ALWAYS be the person to be:
Do more damage.
Take less damage
Be better at whatever skills they want to be better at, including stealth, thieves tools
Bard is great, do not get me wrong. I love their spells, great spell caster. But the thing they do best is to help other people. The rogue is much better at roguish qualities.
I think you're mono focusing on one particular bit and not looking at the class as a whole.
You're absolutely right, I was doing that. I was trying to optimize the character's ability to not be seen, and forgot about everything else a successful stealth mission requires.
Other classes can also be good at stealth. The Rogue does have a lot of abilities that help with sneaky type jobs, though, and the combination of all of them is something that is much more difficult for another class to get all in combination. Sneaky jobs are not just about the ability to move about undetected, it's also about moving quickly while undetected (Cunning Action), about being able to silence the occasional witness quickly (Sneak Attack), about the myriad Skills that it can take to get through a heist (expertise in Investigation, Perception, Deception, etc), as well as being able to evade or disarm the traps on the way in. Expertise in Thieves Tools is something pretty unique to Rogues, the only other class able to get that is the Artificer and it is more difficult for them to max out Dexterity along with that because they are concerned with Intelligence as well.
First, if you only compare two classes that max their Dex and choose Stealth as a skill, both classes are going to be the same. But there are a number of other factors.
Rogue gets Expertise, and due to the mechanics of the Rogue's Cunning Action in combat, the player will almost certainly choose Stealth as one of their Expertise right from level 1. Bards also get Expertise, but Rogues get it earlier. In addition, the Rogue maxing its Dex will help it sneak AND it will bolster its main combat stat. Bards rely on Charisma as its main combat stat, so if it maxes Dex it will need to hinder its spell casting stat, or Constitution and they're already fragile. Last, Bard's only get 3 skills while Rogues get 4 plus Thieves Tools as a freebee, and Bards tend to be prioritized in Cha skills like Persuasion and Performance.
As a Dex focused class Rogues get the most skills of any class and will typically want to focus on "sneaky" skills like Stealth, Slight of Hand, and Acrobatics, which all rely on Dex. And if you really want to lean into the cat burglar thing, it's too easy to put your Strength at 10 and select Athletics as a proficiency or even Expertise. Now you can climb well, walk across sketchy surfaces with high Acrobatics, pick locks, and do all the infiltrator/thief type things.
That's not to say you can't build something like a Bard or Ranger who's competent and pulling Rogue duties, but the Rogue is the best in the business. With that said, you may run across a specific task like scouting ahead, and the Wizard's familiar or a Druid's shapeshift can do that task better than a Rogue. But as for a single character doing ALL the sneaky things in one package, the Rogue is the best and unlike spell casters they expend no resources doing them.
It makes a lot more sense zoomed out. Like you said, a few classes may be able to do a specific type of specialized sneaking better than the Rogue, like the scouting bit I was focused on, but that doesn't make them a stealth oriented class, and certainly doesn't give them as many options for being sneaky as the Rogue has.
You're correct that sneaking with magic is better than sneaking without magic. However, the BEST sneaking happens when someone uses magic... ON the Rogue. Like, yeah, the Rogue can't do it herself, but if someone puts Invisibility on her, she's basically undetectable.
I realize I've also been looking at these classes in a vacuum, unconsciously marking it off as a failing of the class if they required aid from another player. This, of course, undermines the entire point of a game designed to be played cooperatively by a group of players. That the Rogue didn't get Invisibility I blamed on the Rogue, instead of just assuming a teammate would likely be able to cast it on them if needed, and that such teamwork is part of the game's fun. I'll blame that bias on too many single-player video games.
Thanks for all of your explanations! It's been really helpful.
Though I have to say, I am still a little sad that Reliable Talent only comes online at level 11, since I've heard that the majority of campaigns end around levels 11-13. It's such a great feature, especially for players with regularly poor luck.
I realize I've also been looking at these classes in a vacuum, unconsciously marking it off as a failing of the class if they required aid from another player. This, of course, undermines the entire point of a game designed to be played cooperatively by a group of players. That the Rogue didn't get Invisibility I blamed on the Rogue, instead of just assuming a teammate would likely be able to cast it on them if needed, and that such teamwork is part of the game's fun. I'll blame that bias on too many single-player video games.
Thanks for all of your explanations! It's been really helpful.
Though I have to say, I am still a little sad that Reliable Talent only comes online at level 11, since I've heard that the majority of campaigns end around levels 11-13. It's such a great feature, especially for players with regularly poor luck.
You're on of the most chill posters I've encountered, especially one posting a controversial thing. Glad you found some help, hope you enjoy dnd for a while to come.
To the thing on reliable talent, that is sadly true. However, tier 3 is extremely fun, and I recommend playing it as much as possible (only if you're Dm has a good understanding of CR though, and how bad it's designed).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Updog
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Your logic misses the contingency "Get in, get out, don't get caught but if you do. Exfiltration is sometimes violent. Yes, discovery could compromise whatever larger plan for which the scout is deployed, but capture is even more compromising.
I'd also say you're DEX favoring Bard becomes MAD compared to the straight Rogue, and a Bard really needs its CHA for the spellcasting and Bard features. They'll both also need decent INT/WIS for the actual acquisition of information. Rogues I think are more efficiently built for this work, though Bards make better social spies actually embedded to socially engineer intelligence (and it's basically the point of the Whisper Bard, which is basically the Bard assassin equivalent).
Full disclosure, I prefer to not make the two classes compete and instead my player preference is Rogue/Bard multiclass.
Some DMs (or at least me) will run things like reconnaissance and infiltration where negotiating space while avoiding detection is paramount with the action economy in place, assessing progress of infiltration on a measured map and timed to turn (especially if the target has things like clocked patrols etc), so cunning action can come into play outside of initiative. In those instances the Rogue can be literally faster than the Bard.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
By that logic no class is SAD, IF you expect them to do literally everything. Rogues are about all the dex-based abilities of which there are many, and they are all thematic. They also get a ton of skill proficiencies and expertise, and later they get reliable talent. So that makes them good (or even great, depending) at skills even if they rely on an ability score that is only a 10. Now if you add certain subclasses like Soul Knife, dial that up to 11 because they're adding dice to every skill of which they're proficient.
Every class benefits from Con. Beyond that, all an effective Rogue needs is Dex. If you have high Dex and Con as a rogue, everything else can literally be 10 and you can still be very effective and well rounded.
Now look at Bards. If it wants to take the place of a Roque, now you're relying on Charisma, Constitution, and Dexterity. Sacrifice some Charisma and now your spells are weaker. That's kind of a bigger deal than having a few marginally lower skill checks. And no Cunning action. Worth noting, Rogues can do very respectable single target damage, something Bards suck at.
Can Bards take on Rogue duties in the absence of a Rogue? Sure. Them and I would say Rangers can as well. Can they out-Rogue an actual Rogue? No.
You did an awful lot of goalpost moving in your opening post, but I'll say that using the rubrics you seem to be assuming, a Warlock is better than a Bard or a Rogue. Your rubrics are weird, though - e.g. you ignore the finite nature of spell slots, even though Rogues are generally specialists in resourceless warfare and are relatively better later in the adventuring day when the rest of the party is substantially more tapped.
Original Poster has seen the Generalist and thinks wow, they can do so much more, not realizing the power of a specialist.
Since he likes Bard, lets compare 3 bard subclass abilities. All three have a 3rd level ability involving Bardic Inspiration. Normally it is just a d6 (more later) bonus to your choice of Ability Check, Attack Roll, or Saving Throw of an ally.
Lore lets you ALSO apply it to a penalty to the save of an enemy. Eloquence lets you ALSO apply it as a penalty to an attack roll, ability check or damage roll of an enemy. Both of these abilities add variety to what you can do, but not a power increase.
Creation on the other hand lets you roll the d6 twice, and use the higher one when added to an ability check twice, add the d6 to both the attack AND the damage roll (and more), grants temp hp when it is added to a saving throw. Creation does not give you more to do, it makes what you do more powerful.
Bards can learn to do MORE than what the rogue does, but the Rogue does it BETTER. Those little advantages you don't pay attention to about Rogue are very very important to the rogue.
Rogues are better at stealth than Bards. It is true that if the bard chooses to learn Pass without trace (Really wasting a Magical Secret on a 2nd level spell?? not taking counterspell ? fireball? Revivify? Thunderstep? Spirit Guardians? ) they can, for up to an hour per casting come close to what the Rogue does. But not in anti-magic. Not when counterspelled. As long as they are concentrating.
Oh, and while they are using it, their rogue also benefits (spell affects allies). So the rogue is STILL better at stealth than the Bard. But the bard has used up a 2nd level spell slot to help the Rogue be better at stealth. Thank you.
This is an excellent point. Suggestion may help out in that case, but on a Dex build the save is lower, and now we're really starting to stretch those spell slots.
This is a situation I hadn't considered. Tightly timed sneaking on a measured map makes Cunning Action considerably more useful outside of combat.
I'll admit, I'm a sucker for versatility. I picked the Bard because of the abilities I knew they had access to (expertise, casting, viability with Dex)
This is kind of the information I was looking for when I made the post. What makes the Rogue better at stealth than a Bard (or other classes)?
What little advantages does the Rogue have? The only class feature relating to sneaking around (again, out of combat is sort of the idea) I've seen is from the Thief Archetype, Supreme Sneak. Cunning Action admittedly allows for blazing fast hiding in situations like the one above, but there still has to be something to hide behind.
A caster with Pass Without Trace "comes close to what the Rogue does"? From what I understand, the Rogue leaves footprints and at, let's say, level 6, has an average stealth roll of 20.5. A Dex Bard (or any Dex class with expertise in stealth) has the same average stealth roll sans magic. Add invisibility and it becomes something like ~24 with advantage (not to mention the ability to hide anywhere and twice the chance to critically hide)
With Pass Without Trace, the average is 30.5 and you leave no tracks. I'm not sure I see that as "coming close" to the Rogue.
Like I said, I'm new to the game, so if I'm misunderstanding something, let me know! I want my Rogue to be better at infiltration than my Bard. I just don't see how they can be.
BravoTango, If you want the most versatile and complete skill monkey in the game, that would be a Soul Knife Rogue.
First, Rogues start off with Thieves Tool proficiency, plus 4 skills. Now pick a race with 2 skills, many of which make great Rogues. Then pick up two more skills from your background.
That's EIGHT total skills, plus Theives Tools proficiency, just to start off. Then Rogues gain two Expertise at level 1, and then two more at level 6. And then reliable talent at level 11.
But what makes the Soul Knife the best skill monkey in the game is this:
Now consider you're adding those dice to EIGHT skills, plus thieves tools, plus two more tools (if you choose them) from your background. There IS no better do it all in the game. Bards get jack of all trades, which is cool, but at levels 1 through 8 it's only a +1 to your non-proficient skill checks. Psi-Bolstered Knack is really impactful.
Side Note: If you multi-class into Bard, Psi-Bolstered Knack will apply to literally every skill in the game due to Jack of all Trades.
It's pretty essential way of game running if you're dealing with a heist sort of scenario. I mean if part of role playing the prep of the heist involved getting maps and plans, the players should darn well expect to play some of the movements out on the map. Even if you do a sort of theater of the mind, Cunning Action sort of implies that Rogues are just faster than most.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I don't think there's been enough emphasis on this logic. You're comparing what every rogue can do versus a very specific application of one subclass feature. This is like saying rogues are better at charming people because the Swashbuckler's Panache is one of the few consequence-free charms in the game and they can spam it indefinitely.
Bards are designed to be pretty terrible at damage. Yes, you can bend over backwards to be mediocre at it, but you're fighting against the class design and as such you'll be less effective. Rogues are very reliable in this respect. That's certainly not the only issue with OP's logic, but I think the other points have been covered enough.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I don't think Jack of All Trades makes you actually proficient in all things.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I thought I remembered reading that it was ruled that it counts. But I don't see anything on Sage Advice, except that Rogues reliable talent does not apply. I may be wrong on that one.
If it made you proficient, it would shut itself off. Like am infinite loop. You're not proficient, so you add this bonus making you proficient, so you don't add the bonus, so you're not proficient, so...
I guess you could argue there's a difference between a check "that uses your proficiency bonus" and a check "with which you have proficiency." But honestly, at that point, we're splitting hairs in a way that's not useful. Ask your DM if your Soulknife Bard multiclass cheese will work at her table.
Sorry about the confusion there. I wasn't really interested in comparing them based on damage, and I wasn't trying to imply that Fireball is inherently better than Sneak Attack. I just included that thought to point out that building a Bard in a sneaky way doesn't completely neuter their combat abilities. It didn't quite fit into the question I was trying ask, which is why I called it a side note.
I don't have access to Xanathar's, so I haven't looked at the Swashbuckler much, but they sound like a pretty cool subclass! I have a special fondness for pirates.
Would you mind elaborating? A lot of people have been saying that, but I've really only gotten a few answers. I don't have much experience playing the game, so I was hoping someone could tell me why they thought the Rogue was the best at sneaking.
Like I mentioned before, I didn't see many class features that added to that particular aspect.
Cunning Action is admittedly more useful than I thought at first, but does it really make that much of a difference?
Is hiding really that reliable without invisibility? I guess the DM could specifically plant things for you to hide behind, but that feels like a bit of a gamble, and makes open hallways pretty scary.
What is it that makes the Rogue better at stealth than anyone else that puts all their points in Dex?
At first I thought I was just missing the point of the class, and that maybe rogues were stabby bois/gals that were also pretty good at stealth and thievery. But I keep getting told that Rogues are the sneakiest class, way better at infiltrating than others, etc., but without anyone actually telling me why.
(As another side note, again, I just picked the Bard as an example. I'm not attached to the class or anything, I just thought it would make a good comparison, since it had access to spellcasting, expertise, and isn't uncommonly built around Dex.)
You're correct that sneaking with magic is better than sneaking without magic. However, the BEST sneaking happens when someone uses magic... ON the Rogue. Like, yeah, the Rogue can't do it herself, but if someone puts Invisibility on her, she's basically undetectable. None of a Rogue's features use verbal components, to begin with. (Fireball does.)
There's definitely a degree to which this disparity is inflated by DMs and players. Just like how most Fighters and Barbarians don't get spells, so they're sometimes artificially boosted in the things they actually do have, like drawing more aggro from monsters, or impressing people with feats of strength. But at least with the Rogue, it's close. They really are quite sneaky.
I think maybe you're over stating what we've been saying. I don't think any of us have been saying that the Rogue is the unmatched best at sneaking that no other class can even compare. Other classes can also be good at stealth. The Rogue does have a lot of abilities that help with sneaky type jobs, though, and the combination of all of them is something that is much more difficult for another class to get all in combination. Sneaky jobs are not just about the ability to move about undetected, it's also about moving quickly while undetected (Cunning Action), about being able to silence the occasional witness quickly (Sneak Attack), about the myriad Skills that it can take to get through a heist (expertise in Investigation, Perception, Deception, etc), as well as being able to evade or disarm the traps on the way in. Expertise in Thieves Tools is something pretty unique to Rogues, the only other class able to get that is the Artificer and it is more difficult for them to max out Dexterity along with that because they are concerned with Intelligence as well.
I think you're mono focusing on one particular bit and not looking at the class as a whole.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
It comes down to 3 things: 1) Sneak Attack, with "hide" being a great way to get advantage, at least for ranged attacks (while also avoiding getting attacked, if you time it right), 2) Cunning Action making this a viable strategy, 3) expertise in Stealth plus a SAD Dex-based build making it pretty reliable and common.
So, "hide" will depend on how your DM rules things, and how well everyone has read all the little separate parts to the hiding and stealth rules, but in general it's about finding a good hiding spot each turn. This is ultimately up to your DM's judgement (both determining what is and is not a hiding spot, and providing hiding spots on the battlefield --- though things like Invisiblity and Skulker can make things way easier.)
In my experience, the simplest metric (interpretive, not strict RAW): find a place that provides at least 3/4 cover against all the enemies, and beat the highest passive perception with your Stealth roll. Add in roll Stealth at disadvantage if you are re-using a hiding spot (same square) in the combat, and you even have a potential for tactical challenge.
(And note that Reliable Talent, later in the game, will even make that disadvantage mostly irrelevant, if you have high Dex and expertise in Stealth.)
I can explain. First, if you only compare two classes that max their Dex and choose Stealth as a skill, both classes are going to be the same. But there are a number of other factors.
Rogue gets Expertise, and due to the mechanics of the Rogue's Cunning Action in combat, the player will almost certainly choose Stealth as one of their Expertise right from level 1. Bards also get Expertise, but Rogues get it earlier. In addition, the Rogue maxing its Dex will help it sneak AND it will bolster its main combat stat. Bards rely on Charisma as its main combat stat, so if it maxes Dex it will need to hinder its spell casting stat, or Constitution and they're already fragile. Last, Bard's only get 3 skills while Rogues get 4 plus Thieves Tools as a freebee, and Bards tend to be prioritized in Cha skills like Persuasion and Performance.
As a Dex focused class Rogues get the most skills of any class and will typically want to focus on "sneaky" skills like Stealth, Slight of Hand, and Acrobatics, which all rely on Dex. And if you really want to lean into the cat burglar thing, it's too easy to put your Strength at 10 and select Athletics as a proficiency or even Expertise. Now you can climb well, walk across sketchy surfaces with high Acrobatics, pick locks, and do all the infiltrator/thief type things.
That's not to say you can't build something like a Bard or Ranger who's competent and pulling Rogue duties, but the Rogue is the best in the business. With that said, you may run across a specific task like scouting ahead, and the Wizard's familiar or a Druid's shapeshift can do that task better than a Rogue. But as for a single character doing ALL the sneaky things in one package, the Rogue is the best and unlike spell casters they expend no resources doing them.
I am going to go through the standard rogue abilities. Not the subclass abilities, nor the optional Tasha ones, those are too many and a whole new level of stuff.
But lets take a look at them, why Rogues like them. Sneak Attack is the big one. It is the damage equalizer. Huge boost to damage ONCE per round, rather than the standard fighter etc. attempts to do more attacks. It is pitifully easy to sneak attack almost every round. Big damage boost that Bards do not get. (Bards get dice too - Bardic inspiration. Which is support - it goes to OTHER people, not the bard.)
Bards get jack of all trades = HALF proficiencies and only 3 real ones (plus musical ones). Rogues get 4 real ones plus thieves tools AND Expertise earlier than Bards. At levels 1-2 and 6-9 Bards are half as good at everything, Rogues are TWICE as good at the things they want.
Cunning Action, Dash, Disengage and Hide. Dash means you can up there in or out of combat quickly. Massive extra movement. Disengage means no AoOs. Hide is pretty common. This is NOT something hard to do. List of places I have hid behind:
Uncanny Dodge = Half damage to single attack costing you only a reaction. Unlimited uses.
Evasion = Dex Saves are now fail a save = half damage, make a save = no damage. Unlimited uses, costs you NOTHING. Not just spells, dragon breath is the perfect example.
Extra ASI/feat at tenth level
Reliable talent = nothing lower than a 10 when you roll for all skills you have. Including any you got from your background or race. Where the bard is OK on everything, the Rogue is now better at the skills they took.
10 ft blindsense. Incredible. Works in Darkness, Fog Cloud, Sleet Storm, and any other heavy obscurement.
Slippery Mind = Wisdom saves. You are now proficient in TWO of the common saves in addition to an uncommon save.
Elusive = no one has advantage on you. KEY defensive ability.
Capstone ability = once per short/long rest auto hit or auto 20 on ability check. No chance of missing.
The bard has good stuff, but not this stuff. The thief is better at specific skills, while the bard is not bad at everything. The Bard has lots of nice things it does for OTHER people. The Rogue has a bunch of things that let them personally do things much better. More mobile, more hiding, more avoiding AoO, more saves, more defensive abilities.
As I said earlier, if the bard chooses to use Magical Secrets spells to compensate for his lack of stealth, that can also be used on the Rogue. Unless the Bard is a scumbag, the Rogue will ALWAYS be the person to be:
Bard is great, do not get me wrong. I love their spells, great spell caster. But the thing they do best is to help other people. The rogue is much better at roguish qualities.
You're absolutely right, I was doing that. I was trying to optimize the character's ability to not be seen, and forgot about everything else a successful stealth mission requires.
It makes a lot more sense zoomed out. Like you said, a few classes may be able to do a specific type of specialized sneaking better than the Rogue, like the scouting bit I was focused on, but that doesn't make them a stealth oriented class, and certainly doesn't give them as many options for being sneaky as the Rogue has.
I realize I've also been looking at these classes in a vacuum, unconsciously marking it off as a failing of the class if they required aid from another player. This, of course, undermines the entire point of a game designed to be played cooperatively by a group of players. That the Rogue didn't get Invisibility I blamed on the Rogue, instead of just assuming a teammate would likely be able to cast it on them if needed, and that such teamwork is part of the game's fun. I'll blame that bias on too many single-player video games.
Thanks for all of your explanations! It's been really helpful.
Though I have to say, I am still a little sad that Reliable Talent only comes online at level 11, since I've heard that the majority of campaigns end around levels 11-13. It's such a great feature, especially for players with regularly poor luck.
You're on of the most chill posters I've encountered, especially one posting a controversial thing. Glad you found some help, hope you enjoy dnd for a while to come.
To the thing on reliable talent, that is sadly true. However, tier 3 is extremely fun, and I recommend playing it as much as possible (only if you're Dm has a good understanding of CR though, and how bad it's designed).
Updog