Have a character, love playing it - stuck on one small issue... Currently Gloom Stalker 5 / Phantom 3 / Ftr (Samurai) 1. End Game Plan in Westmarches style discord: level 20 Starting stats level 3, after Racials: Str 10, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 13, Longbow SS sneaky Owlin.
- Uncanny Dodge, obviously very good. I don't really have anything else that uses my Reaction. For me this is an easy A tier ability. Doesn't conflict with anything, just a no-downside bonus. But I also don't get targeted very often (at the moment.)
- Expertise, another resource free ability, two extra expertise's in a server that uses skills quite often is fairly powerful. But I have expertise in the most important skills already, so this would just fluff up the character sheet a little more. B tier.
- Evasion, like Uncanny Dodge, it is a resource free damage mitigation ability. Probably will be more important as I level up, and start facing more creatures - like dragons - with wide-ranging AOE attacks. A tier. But like Uncanny Dodge, requires an enemy to more or less specifically target me in a combat environment, versus my bunched up teammates.
- Sneak Attack, 4d6 (And Wails from the Grave 2d6.) More damage, more better. Sneak Attack when you can almost guarantee it every turn, is really good. An average extra 14 damage (a whole average Longbow + SS shot.) And while the 2d6 from Wails From the Grave is 'chip' damage, it's still damage. With this much damage, A tier.B tier at lower dice count (level 4).
vs.
- Level 3 Ranger Spells, mostly bad options for me, two decent ones. But there is an abundance of spell casters in the group that can cover those needs, and the other spells I'd consider ... don't do enough to warrant going to level 9 for them (and therefore level 12.) B tier.
- Tireless, Sure. I guess some free temp hit points and exhaustion removal is ok? But it's also almost pointless amount of temp HP, and exhaustion isn't really brought up much (if at all, ever?) in the group. D tier.
- Favored Foe, Oh yay... 1d6 instead of 1d4 - but it also competes with Concentration for what I think is better, Zephyr Strike. C tier. F tier.
- Nature's Veil is good. Like, really good. Almost , maybe? better than Rogue's BA Hide. But again, it's competing for the BA Zephyre Strike slot, and I think more damage = more better when both abilities do already add advantage to the attack. Really this is more for hiding from someone casting Magic Missile or Hold Person at you, since it only lasts until the start of your next turn meaning you have to use it before your attack on your turn to get the advantage that way, leaving you vulnerable as enemies take their turn. B tier. It will be very Opponent dependent. But I', also an Owlin 300ft up in the air... Not much is looking at me.
- Stalker's Flurry. It's not fighters 3rd attack, but statistically it is probably going to guarantee at least one hit 95% of the time - vs ... 65-70% without it. A+ tier, easily. Just very very good with Sharpshooter.
Regarding the 3rd level spells:
- Ashardalon's Stide - Mostly useless, the only real upside to this is that it just says "your speed" and not your walking speed. So, On Turn X, cast Stride and move 100ft; and on subsequent tuns be able to move 150ft, between Moving, Dashing, and BA Dashing - 'walking,' flying, swimming, or climbing. C tier skill still.
- Conjure Animals is obviously powerful. A tier.
- Conjure Barrage is ...not great? I do not think this will be that great overall in comparison to what Longbow + SS can do. Or other spells. C tier.
- Daylight is useless, and other casters in my group can do that. D tier.
- Flame Arrows, eats up an action. Terrible damage. F tier.
- Lighting Arrow, another decent AOE option, as a BA it's much better than Conjure Barage I think. B+? tier.
- Nondetection, I do not think a use for this spell will come up. D tier.
- Plant Growth IS a powerful spell, but we have a few druids. It's mostly good for pre-battle strategy planning, and the occasional non-combat 'grow the farmers crops' type mission. B tier. But with the number of Druids in the server, I can skip it for sure.
- Protection from Energy, useless for me to take. D tier.
- Speak with Plants, similar to plant Growth in areas of plants for creating difficult terrain, but another less than optimal spell for a mostly combat focused server. C tier.
- Summon Fey, combing it's Tricksy BA with Blindsight would be ... ok. But beyond that I don't think it's as good as Conjure Animals. B tier.
- Water Breathing, Cap of Water Breathing exists and is easily obtainable. And we have enough casters that can do this anyway. F tier.
- Water Walk, same as above. F tier.
- Wind Wall is very hard to use strategically in battle, and fights for the concentration slot that better spells want. And the group has enough casters that could cast the spell - and it eats my Attack action which is bad. C tier.
So, there's Conjure Animals, and Lighting Arrow, that I'd be interested in possibly taking. MAYBE Barrage. But I don't really find the need to cast spells that aren't Zephyr Strike, or Pass Without a Trace. So, the level 3 spells aren't that important to me.
I think ultimately, the decision comes down to 4d6 sneak vs Stalker's Flurry.
Here's my question for you: Do you want to spend 3 levels into ranger getting basically nothing at all you care about in order to pick up Stalker's Flurry? Any why do you care about picking up Skill Expert as a feat? You don't really care about expertise. Phantom Rogue's 9th level ability is really really good to let you use Wails more than a handful of times between rests.
PS: Conjure Animals is useless in combat at high levels.
In actual play where you are experiencing these levels instead of jumping right to 20, I would consider the split at each level rather than just at the end. I think when you do this, rogue comes out on top by quite a bit.
In actual play where you are experiencing these levels instead of jumping right to 20, I would consider the split at each level rather than just at the end. I think when you do this, rogue comes out on top by quite a bit.
^This^
consider what level your build comes “online” or rather when you get the abilities you want from each class. Do you have plans to mitigate what you loose out on in the meantime?
Here's my question for you: Do you want to spend 3 levels into ranger getting basically nothing at all you care about in order to pick up Stalker's Flurry? Any why do you care about picking up Skill Expert as a feat? You don't really care about expertise. Phantom Rogue's 9th level ability is really really good to let you use Wails more than a handful of times between rests.
Started at level 3 (gloom stalker) and went to 5, with the plan to just be a gloom - phantom split, then i decided to add in the fighter at like level 8.If I could, yes, I'd drop it back to just 4 levels of Gloom Stalker, get 12 levels of Samurai, Phantom 4, or something. Or maybe skip the Phantom thing all together with a 17/3 split. But I'm stuck with the build as it is unless I want to retire the character permanently.
Skill Expert is just the only thing that really adds anything to the build at that point. I could go Shadow Touched for Invisibility, but I'm basically invisible anytime I want anyway between Path Without a Trace and Cloak of Elvenkind with Expertise in Stealth, plus Disguise Self for additional camouflage points. Fey Touched doesn't do anything for me since I already have bonus action movement, and fly.
The alternative would be to go with +Wis/Cha ASI, but I never use Cha for anything, and a +2 bonus isn't that much better than a +1 it's already at with no other real tangible upside. If I don't get Observant and just get a +WIS ASI instead, I'd probably go with Alert. But I like having stupid 30+ passive Perception and Investigation, since the DMs in the group do use it quite often.
Gift of the Gem Dragon is useless F tier for me.
Lucky, I could do - always nice
I'd take Resilient Cha if I could, but that isn't doable.
Skulker - .... eh. not terrible, not great. And a lot of my abilities overlap it anyway.
Telekenetic? I'm rarely within 30ft of anything. Mage Hand is a good utility spell, but ultimately, there's typically enough casters in the group and one of them will have it. Or I can make do with a combination of items.
Telepathic? Pass...
So, Skill Expert is the only thing, besides Lucky that does anything relevant, other than just taking ASIs.
PS: Conjure Animals is useless in combat at high levels.
Good to know.
Phantom Rogue's 9th level ability is really really good to let you use Wails more than a handful of times between rests.
I rarely use it more than the 3 times I can use it already, and it's almost pointless chip damage. I took Phantom because I didn't want to do the Assassin route, and the level 3 Whispers of the Dead feature has been very useful for Tools and Skills for downtime crafting, or needing to do some random emergency fortification building in a mission.
In actual play where you are experiencing these levels instead of jumping right to 20, I would consider the split at each level rather than just at the end. I think when you do this, rogue comes out on top by quite a bit.
In actual play where you are experiencing these levels instead of jumping right to 20, I would consider the split at each level rather than just at the end. I think when you do this, rogue comes out on top by quite a bit.
^This^
consider what level your build comes “online” or rather when you get the abilities you want from each class. Do you have plans to mitigate what you loose out on in the meantime?
At the moment, my ONLINE abilities consist of being stealthy as ****, having access to any skill or tool I'll need, doing pretty good damage.
IF I go more Ranger, I just get Stalker's Flurry and some sub-par spells... Stalker's Flurry is great, but WILL I miss enough (With Sharpshooter) to make it worth it, over say... just 4d6 + evasion + more expertise + uncanny dodge. And I think I answered my own question.
GS 8 / PHM 8 / SAM 4 it will be.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
2014 5E mostly
3.5 maybe.
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Have a character, love playing it - stuck on one small issue...
Currently Gloom Stalker 5 / Phantom 3 / Ftr (Samurai) 1. End Game Plan in Westmarches style discord: level 20
Starting stats level 3, after Racials: Str 10, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 13, Longbow SS sneaky Owlin.
My options being: 1. Phantom 8 / Gloom Stalker 8 / Samurai 4 ; or 2. Phantom 4 / Gloom Stalker 12 / Samurai 4.
ASI/Feats: 1. Feat (Sharpshooter). 2. ASI (Dex +2), 3. Feat (Resilient Con), 4. Feat (Observant, +1 Wis,) 5. Feat (Skill Expert, +1 Wis)
I believe my choice boils down to:
(Phantom 8)Uncanny Dodge, Evasion + Expertise + 4d6 Sneak Attack vs . (Gloom Stalker 12) 3rd Level Ranger Spells + Favored Foe + Tireless + Nature's Veil + Stalker's Flurry.
- Uncanny Dodge, obviously very good. I don't really have anything else that uses my Reaction. For me this is an easy A tier ability. Doesn't conflict with anything, just a no-downside bonus. But I also don't get targeted very often (at the moment.)
- Expertise, another resource free ability, two extra expertise's in a server that uses skills quite often is fairly powerful. But I have expertise in the most important skills already, so this would just fluff up the character sheet a little more. B tier.
- Evasion, like Uncanny Dodge, it is a resource free damage mitigation ability. Probably will be more important as I level up, and start facing more creatures - like dragons - with wide-ranging AOE attacks. A tier. But like Uncanny Dodge, requires an enemy to more or less specifically target me in a combat environment, versus my bunched up teammates.
- Sneak Attack, 4d6 (And Wails from the Grave 2d6.) More damage, more better. Sneak Attack when you can almost guarantee it every turn, is really good. An average extra 14 damage (a whole average Longbow + SS shot.) And while the 2d6 from Wails From the Grave is 'chip' damage, it's still damage. With this much damage, A tier. B tier at lower dice count (level 4).
vs.
- Level 3 Ranger Spells, mostly bad options for me, two decent ones. But there is an abundance of spell casters in the group that can cover those needs, and the other spells I'd consider ... don't do enough to warrant going to level 9 for them (and therefore level 12.) B tier.
- Tireless, Sure. I guess some free temp hit points and exhaustion removal is ok? But it's also almost pointless amount of temp HP, and exhaustion isn't really brought up much (if at all, ever?) in the group. D tier.
- Favored Foe, Oh yay... 1d6 instead of 1d4 - but it also competes with Concentration for what I think is better, Zephyr Strike.
C tier.F tier.- Nature's Veil is good. Like, really good. Almost , maybe? better than Rogue's BA Hide. But again, it's competing for the BA Zephyre Strike slot, and I think more damage = more better when both abilities do already add advantage to the attack. Really this is more for hiding from someone casting Magic Missile or Hold Person at you, since it only lasts until the start of your next turn meaning you have to use it before your attack on your turn to get the advantage that way, leaving you vulnerable as enemies take their turn. B tier. It will be very Opponent dependent. But I', also an Owlin 300ft up in the air... Not much is looking at me.
- Stalker's Flurry. It's not fighters 3rd attack, but statistically it is probably going to guarantee at least one hit 95% of the time - vs ... 65-70% without it. A+ tier, easily. Just very very good with Sharpshooter.
Regarding the 3rd level spells:
- Ashardalon's Stide - Mostly useless, the only real upside to this is that it just says "your speed" and not your walking speed. So, On Turn X, cast Stride and move 100ft; and on subsequent tuns be able to move 150ft, between Moving, Dashing, and BA Dashing - 'walking,' flying, swimming, or climbing. C tier skill still.
- Conjure Animals is obviously powerful. A tier.
- Conjure Barrage is ...not great? I do not think this will be that great overall in comparison to what Longbow + SS can do. Or other spells. C tier.
- Daylight is useless, and other casters in my group can do that. D tier.
- Flame Arrows, eats up an action. Terrible damage. F tier.
- Lighting Arrow, another decent AOE option, as a BA it's much better than Conjure Barage I think. B+? tier.
- Nondetection, I do not think a use for this spell will come up. D tier.
- Plant Growth IS a powerful spell, but we have a few druids. It's mostly good for pre-battle strategy planning, and the occasional non-combat 'grow the farmers crops' type mission. B tier. But with the number of Druids in the server, I can skip it for sure.
- Protection from Energy, useless for me to take. D tier.
- Speak with Plants, similar to plant Growth in areas of plants for creating difficult terrain, but another less than optimal spell for a mostly combat focused server. C tier.
- Summon Fey, combing it's Tricksy BA with Blindsight would be ... ok. But beyond that I don't think it's as good as Conjure Animals. B tier.
- Water Breathing, Cap of Water Breathing exists and is easily obtainable. And we have enough casters that can do this anyway. F tier.
- Water Walk, same as above. F tier.
- Wind Wall is very hard to use strategically in battle, and fights for the concentration slot that better spells want. And the group has enough casters that could cast the spell - and it eats my Attack action which is bad. C tier.
So, there's Conjure Animals, and Lighting Arrow, that I'd be interested in possibly taking. MAYBE Barrage. But I don't really find the need to cast spells that aren't Zephyr Strike, or Pass Without a Trace. So, the level 3 spells aren't that important to me.
I think ultimately, the decision comes down to 4d6 sneak vs Stalker's Flurry.
But maybe some additional input is needed?
2014 5E mostly
3.5 maybe.
Here's my question for you: Do you want to spend 3 levels into ranger getting basically nothing at all you care about in order to pick up Stalker's Flurry? Any why do you care about picking up Skill Expert as a feat? You don't really care about expertise. Phantom Rogue's 9th level ability is really really good to let you use Wails more than a handful of times between rests.
PS: Conjure Animals is useless in combat at high levels.
In actual play where you are experiencing these levels instead of jumping right to 20, I would consider the split at each level rather than just at the end. I think when you do this, rogue comes out on top by quite a bit.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
^This^
consider what level your build comes “online” or rather when you get the abilities you want from each class. Do you have plans to mitigate what you loose out on in the meantime?
Started at level 3 (gloom stalker) and went to 5, with the plan to just be a gloom - phantom split, then i decided to add in the fighter at like level 8.If I could, yes, I'd drop it back to just 4 levels of Gloom Stalker, get 12 levels of Samurai, Phantom 4, or something. Or maybe skip the Phantom thing all together with a 17/3 split. But I'm stuck with the build as it is unless I want to retire the character permanently.
Skill Expert is just the only thing that really adds anything to the build at that point. I could go Shadow Touched for Invisibility, but I'm basically invisible anytime I want anyway between Path Without a Trace and Cloak of Elvenkind with Expertise in Stealth, plus Disguise Self for additional camouflage points. Fey Touched doesn't do anything for me since I already have bonus action movement, and fly.
The alternative would be to go with +Wis/Cha ASI, but I never use Cha for anything, and a +2 bonus isn't that much better than a +1 it's already at with no other real tangible upside. If I don't get Observant and just get a +WIS ASI instead, I'd probably go with Alert. But I like having stupid 30+ passive Perception and Investigation, since the DMs in the group do use it quite often.
Gift of the Gem Dragon is useless F tier for me.
Lucky, I could do - always nice
I'd take Resilient Cha if I could, but that isn't doable.
Skulker - .... eh. not terrible, not great. And a lot of my abilities overlap it anyway.
Telekenetic? I'm rarely within 30ft of anything. Mage Hand is a good utility spell, but ultimately, there's typically enough casters in the group and one of them will have it. Or I can make do with a combination of items.
Telepathic? Pass...
So, Skill Expert is the only thing, besides Lucky that does anything relevant, other than just taking ASIs.
Good to know.
I rarely use it more than the 3 times I can use it already, and it's almost pointless chip damage. I took Phantom because I didn't want to do the Assassin route, and the level 3 Whispers of the Dead feature has been very useful for Tools and Skills for downtime crafting, or needing to do some random emergency fortification building in a mission.
2014 5E mostly
3.5 maybe.
At the moment, my ONLINE abilities consist of being stealthy as ****, having access to any skill or tool I'll need, doing pretty good damage.
IF I go more Ranger, I just get Stalker's Flurry and some sub-par spells... Stalker's Flurry is great, but WILL I miss enough (With Sharpshooter) to make it worth it, over say... just 4d6 + evasion + more expertise + uncanny dodge. And I think I answered my own question.
GS 8 / PHM 8 / SAM 4 it will be.
2014 5E mostly
3.5 maybe.