Aye as mentioned, that build is lacking multi attack.
Rune Knight is awesome for grappling though with concentrationless size increase and melee resists while still being able to cast spells. Personally I think it works well with a casting class that has access to enlarge. 3 (and a half) combos that spring to mind are:
Lore bard 5/rune knight 15: start rune knight 5 then take the 5 levels of bard then back to rune knight. Bard gets you cutting words and expertise to help your grapples with access to silence for locking down casters or enlarge for when you run out of giants might/to stack to take on gargantuan creatures. Personally I think 15 rune knight it better for more attacks and an extra use of your rune abilities each rest, but could be reversed to be more magic heavy with 15 bard to take AoA (magical secrets) and cloud of daggers to give foes a really bad time.
Giant soul 15/rune knight 5: similar to the bard heavy build above. Can get to huge size with out relying on concentration so you can now trap a tarrasque in that cloud of daggers. Only good for lvl 20 one shots due to rage of osteria arriving so late, will also need to get expertise from prodigy or brawny feat. Very flavourful though.
Runeknight/ armourer gnome: unsure of level split as 15 rune knight gets you more uses of runes while 10 artificer gets you an infusion to make you completely sad by grappling using intelligence. You get to be Antman by being able to change you size from tiny to huge, also get to use intelligence for attacks making it easier for you to increase the save on your fire rune restraining ability. Finally the melee resists stack nicely with the guardian form's bonus action temp hp.
All the escape spells I can think of off the top of my head (teleport, mistystep, thunderstep, freedom of movement and plane shift) have a verbal component in which case silence will make escape difficult for any non sorcerer with out subtle magic.
All the escape spells I can think of off the top of my head (teleport, mistystep, thunderstep, freedom of movement and plane shift) have a verbal component in which case silence will make escape difficult for any non sorcerer with out subtle magic.
Conjurer would just Benign Transposition, which they would anyways since Silence is already debilitating as heck (only about 20 spells are nonverbal).
Fog Cloud or a similar spell will shut down all short range teleports as well as most offensive, targeted non-attack spells (e.g. Counterspell, Slow) that might be cast through Subtle Spell or a magic item.
You lack multi-attack imo, a rune knight 20 human with prodigy is much better at grappling than a rogue 16 / rune knight 4
Not sure why multi-attack is so important to, well, anything. It's a rogue build that gets its sneak attack through advantage by grappler and does 11d6+7 per turn. 27 minimum (Reliable Talent) on their athletics check to maintain grapple that they also make with advantage. 21d6+14 with an action surge. Plus all the other benefits of evasion, uncanny dodge, excellent saving throw distribution, colossal hit points (for a rogue build), good AC, good movement, excellent versatility with skills, etc.
I mean, if we're not just focusing on DPR, then I think it's a hard build to fault and even if we are, I don't see how it's not a solid DPR contributor either.
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
You lack multi-attack imo, a rune knight 20 human with prodigy is much better at grappling than a rogue 16 / rune knight 4
Not sure why multi-attack is so important to, well, anything. It's a rogue build that gets its sneak attack through advantage by grappler and does 11d6+7 per turn. 27 minimum (Reliable Talent) on their athletics check to maintain grapple that they also make with advantage. 21d6+14 with an action surge. Plus all the other benefits of evasion, uncanny dodge, excellent saving throw distribution, colossal hit points (for a rogue build), good AC, good movement, excellent versatility with skills, etc.
I mean, if we're not just focusing on DPR, then I think it's a hard build to fault and even if we are, I don't see how it's not a solid DPR contributor either.
Basically it's a matter of action economy. Multiattack let's you grapple and shove more creatures in a round. Generally the goal is to grapple and shove a creature to the ground. If you want to focus on damage, that's fine. If you want to really specialize in grappling, then you use both hands for grappling two creatures.
At level 20, in one round a pure fighter can fill its hands with grappled prone enemies and still have the utility of two action surges. Your build requires using an action surge just to get one enemy prone. That doesn't mean your build wouldn't make for a fun effective character, but for a grappler it's suboptimal.
All the escape spells I can think of off the top of my head (teleport, mistystep, thunderstep, freedom of movement and plane shift) have a verbal component in which case silence will make escape difficult for any non sorcerer with out subtle magic.
Fog Cloud or a similar spell will shut down all short range teleports as well as most offensive, targeted non-attack spells (e.g. Counterspell, Slow) that might be cast through Subtle Spell or a magic item.
For some reason I always forget about spells often requiring line of sight, fog cloud is really good shout for dealing with low level sorcerers or conjurers. Granted it can't deal with higher level teleport spells like dimension door or plane shift but it offers another option. Thanks.
You lack multi-attack imo, a rune knight 20 human with prodigy is much better at grappling than a rogue 16 / rune knight 4
Not sure why multi-attack is so important to, well, anything. It's a rogue build that gets its sneak attack through advantage by grappler and does 11d6+7 per turn. 27 minimum (Reliable Talent) on their athletics check to maintain grapple that they also make with advantage. 21d6+14 with an action surge. Plus all the other benefits of evasion, uncanny dodge, excellent saving throw distribution, colossal hit points (for a rogue build), good AC, good movement, excellent versatility with skills, etc.
I mean, if we're not just focusing on DPR, then I think it's a hard build to fault and even if we are, I don't see how it's not a solid DPR contributor either.
Basically it's a matter of action economy. Multiattack let's you grapple and shove more creatures in a round. Generally the goal is to grapple and shove a creature to the ground. If you want to focus on damage, that's fine. If you want to really specialize in grappling, then you use both hands for grappling two creatures.
At level 20, in one round a pure fighter can fill its hands with grappled prone enemies and still have the utility of two action surges. Your build requires using an action surge just to get one enemy prone. That doesn't mean your build wouldn't make for a fun effective character, but for a grappler it's suboptimal.
Not really as he states he is doing this mainly for the advantage gained from the grappler feat so the second attack is less needed, rather than using the grapple to control multiple foes.
I've looked at a similar option but using the UA class variants for the extra battle master manouvers instead of rune knight. Allows you to restrain the target with a single attack+bonus action, plus theres other handy manouvers like riposte for even more damage like an extra sneak attack with your reaction and disarming strike to improve your survival against other humanoids. It works with out extra attack though I would probably be tempted just to be able to get a sneak attack on that initial turn after you have restrained them, though most of the time you should of hid before hand and still have advantage on that first attack.
Down side compared to the rune knight is that all though its more deadly on opponents up to large size, your knackered against huge or bigger. This rune knight/rogue build could work nicely with arcane trickster as you'll have access to enlarge from rogue 8, to be able to grapple any sized foe, though keeping concentration may be tricky.
Don't think it's really necessary to gatekeep grappling. If a build invests in grappling and relies on it to work, it's a grappler. There's room for all types of builds here, including the "pure" grapplers who can pin two guys a round and do pretty much nothing else useful to the party.
Don't think it's really necessary to gatekeep grappling. If a build invests in grappling and relies on it to work, it's a grappler. There's room for all types of builds here, including the "pure" grapplers who can pin two guys a round and do pretty much nothing else useful to the party.
It's not about gatekeeping. The build was described in the first post (#20) as the "supreme multi-class grappler build" and in the next post (#30) as "a rogue build".
I disagree with your assertion that any build that invests in and relies on grappling is a grappler build. If that investment is done in the pursuit of something else, like setting up a sneak attack, that's a not a grappler build.
I disagree with your assertion that any build that invests in and relies on grappling is a grappler build. If that investment is done in the pursuit of something else, like setting up a sneak attack, that's a not a grappler build.
So if someone uses Two-Weapon Fighting to go Crit-Fishing it's no longer a TWF build? Hahahaha syntactics.
I disagree with your assertion that any build that invests in and relies on grappling is a grappler build. If that investment is done in the pursuit of something else, like setting up a sneak attack, that's a not a grappler build.
So if someone uses Two-Weapon Fighting to go Crit-Fishing it's no longer a TWF build? Hahahaha syntactics.
Is it a crit-fishing build or a TWF build? You can tell because of what gets sacrificed when tough decisions have to be made. In this case better grappling was sacrificed for better rogueing hence it's a rogue build. (Also I think you meant semantics not syntactics. If not, my apologies.)
As per recent errata/sage advice, you automatically succeed on a grapple or shove against an incapacitated creature. The stunned condition has the incapacitated condition built into it, meaning Stunning Strike makes a target susceptible to grappling/shoving. This allows monks to grapple and shove even if they are bad at grappling (low athletics and no adv) or the target is good at resisting grapples/shoves.
Your description of martial arts is slightly inaccurate - the bonus action unarmed strike is only if you make an unarmed strike or attack with a monk weapon with the Attack action, but grapples and shoves do not count as either, so a monk cannot combine grapple +shove + unarmed strike for free. Flurry of Blows however only requires the Attack action (not unarmed strik/monk weapon), so you can use FoB after a grapple + shove.
If being a open hand monk grappler, you want to follow up stunning strike with a grapple and then FoB to knock prone with no further saves. The grapple/prone combo is debilitating enough to lose 1 attack with adv, as the target either wastes an action to try to escape or you have advantage for many more attacks.
Edit: my main point being that for a monk grappler, I think Stunning Strike should be Sky Blue instead of Blue.
Warforged gain +2 CON and +1 other, so its scores are good for a grappler. No need to breathe may prove interesting if you can drag a grappled creature into water and suffocate them. +1 AC is really nice because it makes you tankier and has a boosted effect when causing dis via grapple/prone. It gives 1 skill and 1 tool prof of your choice, so you can get athletics prof from it at the start regardless of class/background choice. Poison resilience is nice due to some poison being contact based, which DMs might use to challenge grapplers. I'd put it at blue.
Another core pro of grappling you should include is that it is a check, not a save, so legendary resistances do not work against it. Legendary saves are often how boss monsters avoid deadly spell effects like Banishment, Hold Monster, or the like. This provides specialised grapplers at high level a unique niche of reliably providing single target CC against boss monsters (provided they are large enough to grapple them, since boss monsters tend to be Huge or Gargantuan).
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You lack multi-attack imo, a rune knight 20 human with prodigy is much better at grappling than a rogue 16 / rune knight 4
Re: earlier answers: you don't have to be in the same space than an other creature to grapple it
I need to have a look at Horizon walker, I didn't consider teleporting before grappling. However teleporting after breaks your grapple, which sucks
My homebrew feat for thrown weapons, feat to help DMs extend Sorcerer's spells known list, and my homebrew combo monk subclass (diablo inspired)!
Aye as mentioned, that build is lacking multi attack.
Rune Knight is awesome for grappling though with concentrationless size increase and melee resists while still being able to cast spells. Personally I think it works well with a casting class that has access to enlarge. 3 (and a half) combos that spring to mind are:
Lore bard 5/rune knight 15: start rune knight 5 then take the 5 levels of bard then back to rune knight. Bard gets you cutting words and expertise to help your grapples with access to silence for locking down casters or enlarge for when you run out of giants might/to stack to take on gargantuan creatures. Personally I think 15 rune knight it better for more attacks and an extra use of your rune abilities each rest, but could be reversed to be more magic heavy with 15 bard to take AoA (magical secrets) and cloud of daggers to give foes a really bad time.
Giant soul 15/rune knight 5: similar to the bard heavy build above. Can get to huge size with out relying on concentration so you can now trap a tarrasque in that cloud of daggers. Only good for lvl 20 one shots due to rage of osteria arriving so late, will also need to get expertise from prodigy or brawny feat. Very flavourful though.
Runeknight/ armourer gnome: unsure of level split as 15 rune knight gets you more uses of runes while 10 artificer gets you an infusion to make you completely sad by grappling using intelligence. You get to be Antman by being able to change you size from tiny to huge, also get to use intelligence for attacks making it easier for you to increase the save on your fire rune restraining ability. Finally the melee resists stack nicely with the guardian form's bonus action temp hp.
I don't understand the Silence combo. How does grappling prevent somatic components?
All the escape spells I can think of off the top of my head (teleport, mistystep, thunderstep, freedom of movement and plane shift) have a verbal component in which case silence will make escape difficult for any non sorcerer with out subtle magic.
Conjurer would just Benign Transposition, which they would anyways since Silence is already debilitating as heck (only about 20 spells are nonverbal).
Fair one, not really come across the conjurer class in play, and while there are a few subclasses with non spell teleports there are plenty that dont.
As a matter of fact that vast majority of spells have a V component; there's only 25 out of several hundred in the "Core D&D" category of source books, of which only 9 come from the Player's Handbook, and of those Counterspell and Demiplane are unlikely to be used by any but the highest CR monsters.
Silence is absolutely crippling to spellcasters, which is why it's balanced by a relatively small area that can't be moved.
Fog Cloud or a similar spell will shut down all short range teleports as well as most offensive, targeted non-attack spells (e.g. Counterspell, Slow) that might be cast through Subtle Spell or a magic item.
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Not sure why multi-attack is so important to, well, anything. It's a rogue build that gets its sneak attack through advantage by grappler and does 11d6+7 per turn. 27 minimum (Reliable Talent) on their athletics check to maintain grapple that they also make with advantage. 21d6+14 with an action surge. Plus all the other benefits of evasion, uncanny dodge, excellent saving throw distribution, colossal hit points (for a rogue build), good AC, good movement, excellent versatility with skills, etc.
I mean, if we're not just focusing on DPR, then I think it's a hard build to fault and even if we are, I don't see how it's not a solid DPR contributor either.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
Basically it's a matter of action economy. Multiattack let's you grapple and shove more creatures in a round. Generally the goal is to grapple and shove a creature to the ground. If you want to focus on damage, that's fine. If you want to really specialize in grappling, then you use both hands for grappling two creatures.
At level 20, in one round a pure fighter can fill its hands with grappled prone enemies and still have the utility of two action surges. Your build requires using an action surge just to get one enemy prone. That doesn't mean your build wouldn't make for a fun effective character, but for a grappler it's suboptimal.
For some reason I always forget about spells often requiring line of sight, fog cloud is really good shout for dealing with low level sorcerers or conjurers. Granted it can't deal with higher level teleport spells like dimension door or plane shift but it offers another option. Thanks.
Not really as he states he is doing this mainly for the advantage gained from the grappler feat so the second attack is less needed, rather than using the grapple to control multiple foes.
I've looked at a similar option but using the UA class variants for the extra battle master manouvers instead of rune knight. Allows you to restrain the target with a single attack+bonus action, plus theres other handy manouvers like riposte for even more damage like an extra sneak attack with your reaction and disarming strike to improve your survival against other humanoids. It works with out extra attack though I would probably be tempted just to be able to get a sneak attack on that initial turn after you have restrained them, though most of the time you should of hid before hand and still have advantage on that first attack.
Down side compared to the rune knight is that all though its more deadly on opponents up to large size, your knackered against huge or bigger. This rune knight/rogue build could work nicely with arcane trickster as you'll have access to enlarge from rogue 8, to be able to grapple any sized foe, though keeping concentration may be tricky.
You're right. It says as much in the post. It's not a grappler build, "It's a rogue build..."
As a grappler, it's bad. As a rogue it's fine.
Don't think it's really necessary to gatekeep grappling. If a build invests in grappling and relies on it to work, it's a grappler. There's room for all types of builds here, including the "pure" grapplers who can pin two guys a round and do pretty much nothing else useful to the party.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
It's not about gatekeeping. The build was described in the first post (#20) as the "supreme multi-class grappler build" and in the next post (#30) as "a rogue build".
I disagree with your assertion that any build that invests in and relies on grappling is a grappler build. If that investment is done in the pursuit of something else, like setting up a sneak attack, that's a not a grappler build.
I'm still of the opinion multi-attack would be nice to be able to grapple and attack in the first round (and each time your grapple is broken).
My homebrew feat for thrown weapons, feat to help DMs extend Sorcerer's spells known list, and my homebrew combo monk subclass (diablo inspired)!
So if someone uses Two-Weapon Fighting to go Crit-Fishing it's no longer a TWF build? Hahahaha syntactics.
Is it a crit-fishing build or a TWF build? You can tell because of what gets sacrificed when tough decisions have to be made. In this case better grappling was sacrificed for better rogueing hence it's a rogue build. (Also I think you meant semantics not syntactics. If not, my apologies.)
As per recent errata/sage advice, you automatically succeed on a grapple or shove against an incapacitated creature. The stunned condition has the incapacitated condition built into it, meaning Stunning Strike makes a target susceptible to grappling/shoving. This allows monks to grapple and shove even if they are bad at grappling (low athletics and no adv) or the target is good at resisting grapples/shoves.
Your description of martial arts is slightly inaccurate - the bonus action unarmed strike is only if you make an unarmed strike or attack with a monk weapon with the Attack action, but grapples and shoves do not count as either, so a monk cannot combine grapple +shove + unarmed strike for free. Flurry of Blows however only requires the Attack action (not unarmed strik/monk weapon), so you can use FoB after a grapple + shove.
If being a open hand monk grappler, you want to follow up stunning strike with a grapple and then FoB to knock prone with no further saves. The grapple/prone combo is debilitating enough to lose 1 attack with adv, as the target either wastes an action to try to escape or you have advantage for many more attacks.
Edit: my main point being that for a monk grappler, I think Stunning Strike should be Sky Blue instead of Blue.
Warforged gain +2 CON and +1 other, so its scores are good for a grappler. No need to breathe may prove interesting if you can drag a grappled creature into water and suffocate them. +1 AC is really nice because it makes you tankier and has a boosted effect when causing dis via grapple/prone. It gives 1 skill and 1 tool prof of your choice, so you can get athletics prof from it at the start regardless of class/background choice. Poison resilience is nice due to some poison being contact based, which DMs might use to challenge grapplers. I'd put it at blue.
Another core pro of grappling you should include is that it is a check, not a save, so legendary resistances do not work against it. Legendary saves are often how boss monsters avoid deadly spell effects like Banishment, Hold Monster, or the like. This provides specialised grapplers at high level a unique niche of reliably providing single target CC against boss monsters (provided they are large enough to grapple them, since boss monsters tend to be Huge or Gargantuan).