So, just because there is a frontline character, no enemies ever move to the range classes? If you look at the proficiencies given, they are considered melee worthy, it's not like a sorcerer going in with a dagger or staff with most likely no Str or Dex.
I'm not sure what point you're making here, that because ranged character can still get hurt, they might as well go to the frontline ?
And I'm not sure I'd call "light armor and simple weapons proficiency" as "melee worthy". The only melee class with the same proficiency would be rogue, but you'd expect a rogue's CA to be higher from their dexterity. Going melee for a chance to deal 1d6 damage seems like asking for trouble. Your bonus action is better spent using a bardic inspiration, especially if you're level 5.
And if you are already maintaining concentration on a useful spell (for free), you can use your action for vicious mockery for a little bit if damage and even more useful damage mitigation, and bonus action bardic inspiration to buff the party. You can also use your cutting words reaction to negate damage.
You are a support class, and you have a ton of buff, debuff, and control options. Just because you are not doing damage, does not mean you are not helping.
If being the good luck charm that makes it easy for the rest of the party is not what you want to be, change class.
Vicious mockery may not be extremely effective, but giving disadvantage to enemies is quite efficient.
You spend your entire action to stop, (no not even stop, give disadvantage to), only some of the enemy's action. How is that efficient?
If your main goal is to maintain concentration on your first spell, then giving disadvantage to an attacker who is trying to kill you or break your concentration is very efficient, and pinging him for a little damage is all bonus.
If your goal is to "top" the DPR, you'll probably want to do magic initiate warlock or multiclass warlock for eldritch blast (probably a 2 level dip for agonizing blast to bump the damage). Dipping would give you the extra bonus of extra 1st level slots on a short rest for additional spell support and whatever subclass features you get.
If neither of those options sound like what you want to accomplish, I'd suggest figuring out how you want to play, figuring out what tools you have available to accomplish that, and consider whether there is another class that might accomplish it better- either outright or through multiclass. Talk to your DM about what you want to accomplish and see if y'all can come to a solution to help you have more fun.
The point is that you can't have a good mix of concentration and non-concentration spells because 99% of bard combat spells require concentration.
Like minor illusion, thunderclap, vicious mockery, charm person, cure wounds, dissonant whispers, earth tremor, healing word, sleep, thunderwave, blindness/deafness, enthrall, pyrotechnics, see invisibility, shatteer, dispel magic, charm monster, mass cure wounds, synaptic static (a personal favourite), forcecage (the bard in our OotA game uses this often), etc, etc, etc?
Of course, there is also giving bardic inspiration, using countercharm (the bard in my game used this twice last week), casting spells from other colleges that don't require concentration (fireball is a crowd-pleaser), making medicine checks on downed allies, dashing around to get better positioning, etc.
And of course, attacking. Your bard can use a light crossbow or a shortbow (both of which outrange and/or outdamage the the hand crossbow the OP is using).
The concentration mechanic is a good thing. Among other things, it forces players of casters to think smartly and to think laterally. You can't fly and be hasted and me blurred and be polymorphed. You have to make a tactical choice.
I mean, concentration is an investment, but it doesn't take your action on each successive round. Cast heat metal on the armor of the biggest nasty coming after your party - you're doing automatic damage every round, which is WAY better than weapon attacks over time. Then on each successive turn - while maintaining your concentration - you can use spells like vicious mockery, thunderclap, charm person, earth tremor, sleep, thunderwave, enthrall, and shatter - none of which require concentration and ALL of which are great in combat. Or you can use faerie fire to open and then spam crossbow attacks with advantage. :)
I think just let your concentration spell run their course.
Yeah, on your turn you didn't cast a new spell, but that Faerie Fire from two turns ago is still going strong, so all your warrior allies can attack with advantage. If you are fighting a creature that makes a lot of weapon attacks, throw a Vicious Mockery at it. If you are fighting another spellcaster, shoot it with a crossbow to try to disrupt their own concentration.
When I play a bard, my play style is usually:
stay in the back, and cast regular spells until I get get a save-or-suck to stick.
Vicious Mockery or crossbow attack until I need a different spell (unlikely) or the enemy dies
Or Help allies that are struggling, all while still getting the benefit from whatever spell I am concentrating on.
Honestly, pinning down one or more enemies with a Concentration Spell, then tossing out Blindness/Deafness and Bardic Inspiration each round is a solid play strategy for most bards.
Since we're talking about possible actions, Minor Illusion is a great concentration-free cantrip that deserves more mention. You can use it to provide cover for yourself or your allies, to temporarily restrict one or more opponent's movement, and as a way to provide Help to your party Rogue while staying away from the frontlines. These are all useful combat actions. Dealing a lot of damage directly is not the only measure of a class's combat effectiveness.
Since we're talking about possible actions, Minor Illusion is a great concentration-free cantrip that deserves more mention. You can use it to provide cover for yourself or your allies, to temporarily restrict one or more opponent's movement, and as a way to provide Help to your party Rogue while staying away from the frontlines. These are all useful combat actions. Dealing a lot of damage directly is not the only measure of a class's combat effectiveness.
These applications all seems dependent on DM approval. I would personally not let it grant cover, since the illusion doesn't actually protect you, and I'm not sure about letting someone use that spell as a ranged help either. Restricting movement might be a thing, as in "the enemy will want to walk around it", but that would be it for me.
These applications all seems dependent on DM approval. I would personally not let it grant cover, since the illusion doesn't actually protect you, and I'm not sure about letting someone use that spell as a ranged help either. Restricting movement might be a thing, as in "the enemy will want to walk around it", but that would be it for me.
If you make a 5'X5' object like a tapestry appear out of thin air and your opponent can no longer see you, isn't that cover? I'm not saying your opponent can't try to move around it or disbelieve it, but in a narrow corridor, this could be the difference between perforated arteries and non-perforation for 1 round. Getting that archer with Sharpshooter to waste a round disbelieving in your illusion seems like a pretty legit useful action to me. If a tiny flying beast like an owl can do a flyby on an enemy to get them on the wrong footing as a Help action, why would you not allow Minor Illusion to create a noticeable *BOOM* right behind a creature's head to shake them up for the same ends?
So, just because there is a frontline character, no enemies ever move to the range classes? If you look at the proficiencies given, they are considered melee worthy, it's not like a sorcerer going in with a dagger or staff with most likely no Str or Dex.
I'm not sure what point you're making here, that because ranged character can still get hurt, they might as well go to the frontline ?
And I'm not sure I'd call "light armor and simple weapons proficiency" as "melee worthy". The only melee class with the same proficiency would be rogue, but you'd expect a rogue's CA to be higher from their dexterity. Going melee for a chance to deal 1d6 damage seems like asking for trouble. Your bonus action is better spent using a bardic inspiration, especially if you're level 5.
I never said send the Bard to the frontline, I said that dual wield(or even rapier) is going to be better than a crossbow when you have to protect yourself in melee range. Bardic Inspiration is great but, like spell slots, it's a limited resource.
I have never been in a game where the DM just let range classes drop bombs because there was a tank class on the field, if you attack a target, they just might try to get to you. I don't think that every "squishy" class is as afraid to mix it up as you might be. There are a lot of powerful touch to short range spells and abilities that indicate this, many being touch buffs or heals that you might want to put on a tanky ally.
The result is that I'm casting spells too often and running out of spells too quickly. What can I do differently than I'm doing now which will slow down how quickly I'm running out of spells.
Presumably you're still low-level. A few suggestions to address your issue:
- Embrace that a Bard, especially a Lore Bard, is a support role. If you constantly try to do significant damage, rather than simply casting and maintaining a single game-changing support spell, you WILL typically run out of spell slots (or find yourself constantly frustrated at your weapon attack options.)
- Make use of your cantrips. Not sure which ones you've chosen, but even Vicious Mockery can be used to strategic (and humorous) effect while you're concentrating on that Hold Person spell. Minor Illusion and Mage Hand can also be quite useful here. If you really want to be slinging magic constantly, consider taking Magic Initiate at some point and grabbing powerful cantrips (Eldritch Blast, Fire Bolt, Toll the Dead) and/or strategic ones (Guidance, Mold Earth, Spare the Dying) that can still be used on the battlefield.
- Actively look for opportunities to provide support. While you're maintaining that Faerie Fire, don't worry so much about the enemy as your allies. Try to help them out (either via heals, or literally with the Help action if needed.) Give them Bardic Inspiration so THEY can ensure getting massive damage on the opponent. Use your Cutting Words to keep them, and yourself, safe from harm. Relay messages across the battlefield, or even direct the party during combat if they're into that (and if you're any good at it.)
- Try to purchase a Pearl of Power. It's an Uncommon magic item that replenishes one spell slot per long rest. It's not much, but it might help. Later, a Ring of Spell Storage can also be quite an advantage.
- Spend your downtime scribing spell scrolls. Sure, they're one-time use, but would you rather go into battle with 5 spell slots, or 5 spell slots plus 10 MORE spells you're transferred to scrolls?
If I were a Lore Bard and I hadn't hit level 6 where I could grab a more martial spell from the Wizard list I think I would feel pretty effective throwing out Bane and then using Vicious Mockery and Cutting Words to really shut down attackers.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I find as a support spellcaster my general plan is:
1) Pick a time to throw down a concentration spell that's appropriate for the occasion
2) While concentrating on it, have an attack cantrip ready to do a bit of damage.
Usually concentration spells run out their usefullness after 2 rounds or so - either the enemies die, or make their save, or something else. So it ends up alternating - one round of good concentration spell, one turn of minor attack cantrip, or maybe two. Once you're at high enough level, "level 1 spell slot" takes the place of "attack cantrip".
For bard, that's either thunderclap or vicious mockery. Not that high damage, but it'll do every other turn, and at low level (when some enemies are only doing an attack per turn) the disadvantage that vicious mockery induces is actually useful. That, or plinking with a crossbow or versatile weapon is fine. Or if your DM allows, using minor illusion for support. (Or sleep as a finisher for an almost-dead enemy or group.)
As you get to higher level, dissonant whispers becomes usable on off-turns, or thunderwave.
Or hear me out.....20th level bard skill is meh. Take some levels in Cleric/Sorc/Warlock/Wizard to give you more options on nuke spells/cantrips. Boom. Even 1 gives you some more options.
You would need at least 2 levels of warlock to have a cantrip that is even remotely useful at high level. Even Eldritch Blast is bad, because 1d10 is not impressive damage, and you would need the invocation to add your charisma.
But then it also means delaying your bardic spellcasting by a full spell level (as in, getting 4th level spells when you would usually get 5th level).
You would need at least 2 levels of warlock to have a cantrip that is even remotely useful at high level. Even Eldritch Blast is bad, because 1d10 is not impressive damage, and you would need the invocation to add your charisma.
But then it also means delaying your bardic spellcasting by a full spell level (as in, getting 4th level spells when you would usually get 5th level).
I agree. Just take the Magic Initiate/Warlock feat and use the Eldritch Blast/Hex combo. 1d10+1d6 is a decent combo that will scale with level and won't slow down your casting progressing. Hex also has lots of utility out of combat as a debuff spell.
You would need at least 2 levels of warlock to have a cantrip that is even remotely useful at high level. Even Eldritch Blast is bad, because 1d10 is not impressive damage, and you would need the invocation to add your charisma.
But then it also means delaying your bardic spellcasting by a full spell level (as in, getting 4th level spells when you would usually get 5th level).
I agree. Just take the Magic Initiate/Warlock feat and use the Eldritch Blast/Hex combo. 1d10+1d6 is a decent combo that will scale with level and won't slow down your casting progressing. Hex also has lots of utility out of combat as a debuff spell.
The only reason why I would say otherwise is if the warlock skills including the 2nd invocation at Warlock 2 would be highly valued. The opportunity cost of delaying spell progression and ASIs versus the added utility of 2 levels of Warlock including the short rest reset on 2 level 1 spell slots, 2 extra 1st level spells (vs magic initiate), and the invocations (1 of which is likely agonizing blast) won't always be close or in favor of the 2 level dip. When it is, it can be great though.
I agree. Just take the Magic Initiate/Warlock feat and use the Eldritch Blast/Hex combo. 1d10+1d6 is a decent combo that will scale with level and won't slow down your casting progressing. Hex also has lots of utility out of combat as a debuff spell.
A bard got so much better to do with their concentration than Hex.
Cantrips are not great by design, otherwise there'd be no point in melee attacks. Warlock are the exception, but they require a hefty investment to be on par with a regular weapon attack.
I'm not sure what point you're making here, that because ranged character can still get hurt, they might as well go to the frontline ?
And I'm not sure I'd call "light armor and simple weapons proficiency" as "melee worthy". The only melee class with the same proficiency would be rogue, but you'd expect a rogue's CA to be higher from their dexterity. Going melee for a chance to deal 1d6 damage seems like asking for trouble. Your bonus action is better spent using a bardic inspiration, especially if you're level 5.
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Vicious mockery does damage too. Did you forget?
And if you are already maintaining concentration on a useful spell (for free), you can use your action for vicious mockery for a little bit if damage and even more useful damage mitigation, and bonus action bardic inspiration to buff the party. You can also use your cutting words reaction to negate damage.
You are a support class, and you have a ton of buff, debuff, and control options. Just because you are not doing damage, does not mean you are not helping.
If being the good luck charm that makes it easy for the rest of the party is not what you want to be, change class.
RE: two weapon fighting.
Bardic Inspiration would probably be a better use of your Bonus Action than an off-hand attack.
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If your main goal is to maintain concentration on your first spell, then giving disadvantage to an attacker who is trying to kill you or break your concentration is very efficient, and pinging him for a little damage is all bonus.
If your goal is to "top" the DPR, you'll probably want to do magic initiate warlock or multiclass warlock for eldritch blast (probably a 2 level dip for agonizing blast to bump the damage). Dipping would give you the extra bonus of extra 1st level slots on a short rest for additional spell support and whatever subclass features you get.
If neither of those options sound like what you want to accomplish, I'd suggest figuring out how you want to play, figuring out what tools you have available to accomplish that, and consider whether there is another class that might accomplish it better- either outright or through multiclass. Talk to your DM about what you want to accomplish and see if y'all can come to a solution to help you have more fun.
Like minor illusion, thunderclap, vicious mockery, charm person, cure wounds, dissonant whispers, earth tremor, healing word, sleep, thunderwave, blindness/deafness, enthrall, pyrotechnics, see invisibility, shatteer, dispel magic, charm monster, mass cure wounds, synaptic static (a personal favourite), forcecage (the bard in our OotA game uses this often), etc, etc, etc?
Of course, there is also giving bardic inspiration, using countercharm (the bard in my game used this twice last week), casting spells from other colleges that don't require concentration (fireball is a crowd-pleaser), making medicine checks on downed allies, dashing around to get better positioning, etc.
And of course, attacking. Your bard can use a light crossbow or a shortbow (both of which outrange and/or outdamage the the hand crossbow the OP is using).
The concentration mechanic is a good thing. Among other things, it forces players of casters to think smartly and to think laterally. You can't fly and be hasted and me blurred and be polymorphed. You have to make a tactical choice.
I mean, concentration is an investment, but it doesn't take your action on each successive round. Cast heat metal on the armor of the biggest nasty coming after your party - you're doing automatic damage every round, which is WAY better than weapon attacks over time. Then on each successive turn - while maintaining your concentration - you can use spells like vicious mockery, thunderclap, charm person, earth tremor, sleep, thunderwave, enthrall, and shatter - none of which require concentration and ALL of which are great in combat. Or you can use faerie fire to open and then spam crossbow attacks with advantage. :)
I think just let your concentration spell run their course.
Yeah, on your turn you didn't cast a new spell, but that Faerie Fire from two turns ago is still going strong, so all your warrior allies can attack with advantage.
If you are fighting a creature that makes a lot of weapon attacks, throw a Vicious Mockery at it.
If you are fighting another spellcaster, shoot it with a crossbow to try to disrupt their own concentration.
When I play a bard, my play style is usually:
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Honestly, pinning down one or more enemies with a Concentration Spell, then tossing out Blindness/Deafness and Bardic Inspiration each round is a solid play strategy for most bards.
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Since we're talking about possible actions, Minor Illusion is a great concentration-free cantrip that deserves more mention. You can use it to provide cover for yourself or your allies, to temporarily restrict one or more opponent's movement, and as a way to provide Help to your party Rogue while staying away from the frontlines. These are all useful combat actions. Dealing a lot of damage directly is not the only measure of a class's combat effectiveness.
These applications all seems dependent on DM approval. I would personally not let it grant cover, since the illusion doesn't actually protect you, and I'm not sure about letting someone use that spell as a ranged help either. Restricting movement might be a thing, as in "the enemy will want to walk around it", but that would be it for me.
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If you make a 5'X5' object like a tapestry appear out of thin air and your opponent can no longer see you, isn't that cover? I'm not saying your opponent can't try to move around it or disbelieve it, but in a narrow corridor, this could be the difference between perforated arteries and non-perforation for 1 round. Getting that archer with Sharpshooter to waste a round disbelieving in your illusion seems like a pretty legit useful action to me. If a tiny flying beast like an owl can do a flyby on an enemy to get them on the wrong footing as a Help action, why would you not allow Minor Illusion to create a noticeable *BOOM* right behind a creature's head to shake them up for the same ends?
I never said send the Bard to the frontline, I said that dual wield(or even rapier) is going to be better than a crossbow when you have to protect yourself in melee range. Bardic Inspiration is great but, like spell slots, it's a limited resource.
I have never been in a game where the DM just let range classes drop bombs because there was a tank class on the field, if you attack a target, they just might try to get to you. I don't think that every "squishy" class is as afraid to mix it up as you might be. There are a lot of powerful touch to short range spells and abilities that indicate this, many being touch buffs or heals that you might want to put on a tanky ally.
Presumably you're still low-level. A few suggestions to address your issue:
- Embrace that a Bard, especially a Lore Bard, is a support role. If you constantly try to do significant damage, rather than simply casting and maintaining a single game-changing support spell, you WILL typically run out of spell slots (or find yourself constantly frustrated at your weapon attack options.)
- Make use of your cantrips. Not sure which ones you've chosen, but even Vicious Mockery can be used to strategic (and humorous) effect while you're concentrating on that Hold Person spell. Minor Illusion and Mage Hand can also be quite useful here. If you really want to be slinging magic constantly, consider taking Magic Initiate at some point and grabbing powerful cantrips (Eldritch Blast, Fire Bolt, Toll the Dead) and/or strategic ones (Guidance, Mold Earth, Spare the Dying) that can still be used on the battlefield.
- Actively look for opportunities to provide support. While you're maintaining that Faerie Fire, don't worry so much about the enemy as your allies. Try to help them out (either via heals, or literally with the Help action if needed.) Give them Bardic Inspiration so THEY can ensure getting massive damage on the opponent. Use your Cutting Words to keep them, and yourself, safe from harm. Relay messages across the battlefield, or even direct the party during combat if they're into that (and if you're any good at it.)
- Try to purchase a Pearl of Power. It's an Uncommon magic item that replenishes one spell slot per long rest. It's not much, but it might help. Later, a Ring of Spell Storage can also be quite an advantage.
- Spend your downtime scribing spell scrolls. Sure, they're one-time use, but would you rather go into battle with 5 spell slots, or 5 spell slots plus 10 MORE spells you're transferred to scrolls?
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If I were a Lore Bard and I hadn't hit level 6 where I could grab a more martial spell from the Wizard list I think I would feel pretty effective throwing out Bane and then using Vicious Mockery and Cutting Words to really shut down attackers.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I find as a support spellcaster my general plan is:
1) Pick a time to throw down a concentration spell that's appropriate for the occasion
2) While concentrating on it, have an attack cantrip ready to do a bit of damage.
Usually concentration spells run out their usefullness after 2 rounds or so - either the enemies die, or make their save, or something else. So it ends up alternating - one round of good concentration spell, one turn of minor attack cantrip, or maybe two. Once you're at high enough level, "level 1 spell slot" takes the place of "attack cantrip".
For bard, that's either thunderclap or vicious mockery. Not that high damage, but it'll do every other turn, and at low level (when some enemies are only doing an attack per turn) the disadvantage that vicious mockery induces is actually useful. That, or plinking with a crossbow or versatile weapon is fine. Or if your DM allows, using minor illusion for support. (Or sleep as a finisher for an almost-dead enemy or group.)
As you get to higher level, dissonant whispers becomes usable on off-turns, or thunderwave.
Or hear me out.....20th level bard skill is meh. Take some levels in Cleric/Sorc/Warlock/Wizard to give you more options on nuke spells/cantrips. Boom. Even 1 gives you some more options.
You would need at least 2 levels of warlock to have a cantrip that is even remotely useful at high level. Even Eldritch Blast is bad, because 1d10 is not impressive damage, and you would need the invocation to add your charisma.
But then it also means delaying your bardic spellcasting by a full spell level (as in, getting 4th level spells when you would usually get 5th level).
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I agree. Just take the Magic Initiate/Warlock feat and use the Eldritch Blast/Hex combo. 1d10+1d6 is a decent combo that will scale with level and won't slow down your casting progressing. Hex also has lots of utility out of combat as a debuff spell.
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The only reason why I would say otherwise is if the warlock skills including the 2nd invocation at Warlock 2 would be highly valued. The opportunity cost of delaying spell progression and ASIs versus the added utility of 2 levels of Warlock including the short rest reset on 2 level 1 spell slots, 2 extra 1st level spells (vs magic initiate), and the invocations (1 of which is likely agonizing blast) won't always be close or in favor of the 2 level dip. When it is, it can be great though.
A bard got so much better to do with their concentration than Hex.
Cantrips are not great by design, otherwise there'd be no point in melee attacks. Warlock are the exception, but they require a hefty investment to be on par with a regular weapon attack.
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