Doing some preliminary numbers on some Champion/Battlemaster damage comparisons... here's what I have so far. These all assumed level 20 currently but I plan to scale it to lower levels with time. With Maul/Crusher/GWF, the increase in damage is around 24%. With TWF and 2 Flails, the increase in damage is around 12%. I could conceive a situation where it would be further improved with an Action Surge when Crusher procs, but that's not looked at below. I also did not calculate the odds of getting a killing blow with GWM and getting the free attack. What is included below:
1) Chance of hitting AC 20, with maxxed attack stats.
2) Normal weapon only
3) Target AC 20
4) Cumulative chance of a crit improves chances of being able to proc Crusher and Advantage on future attacks
5) Cumulative chance of a crit also improves chanced of being able to proc GWM Bonus Attack
6) Average damage for a flail is 4.5
7) Average damage for a maul with GWF Style is 8.334
8) EDIT: Reminder, if you added a 1d12 Superiority Die for example, this would not equate to a 6.5 damage bonus - these numbers are hit % adjusted, so with a 1d12 Die you'd likely see close to 6.5 * 0.6 = 3.9 damage increase per use (obviously approximated)
CHAMPION WITH MAUL/CRUSHER/GWF
BATTLEMASTER WITH MAUL/CRUSHER/GWF
Normal Dmg
Crit Dmg
Total
Adjusted Damage
Normal Dmg
Crit Dmg
Total
Adjusted Damage
First Attack
8.00
1.25
9.25
9.25
8.00
0.42
8.42
8.42
Second Attack
8.00
1.25
9.25
9.89
8.00
0.42
8.42
8.60
Third Attack
8.00
1.25
9.25
10.43
8.00
0.42
8.42
8.77
Fourth Attack
8.00
1.25
9.25
10.90
8.00
0.42
8.42
8.93
Bonus Attack
8.00
1.25
9.25
4.36
8.00
0.42
8.42
1.30
First Attack Crusher?
0.00
Bonus Attack?
0.39
0.00
Bonus Attack?
0.14
Second Attack Crusher
0.15
13.51
0.05
12.01
Third Attack Crusher
0.28
13.51
0.10
12.01
Fourth Attack Crusher
0.39
13.51
0.14
12.01
Bonus Attack Crusher
0.48
13.51
0.19
12.01
TOTAL DMG
44.82
36.01
CHAMPION WITH 2 FLAILS/CRUSHER/TWF/DUAL WIELDER
BATTLEMASTER WITH 2 FLAILS/CRUSHER/TWF/DUAL WIELDER
Worth noting, Elvin Accuracy does not work for strength-based attacks. It seems the developers were cognitive not to allow the funny business of marrying Reckless Attack with Elvin Accuracy.
Funny enough if you get hexblade and barb somehow you could do that... But would require some good rolls.
How would the Hexblade help? Reckless Attack requires a strength-based melee attack.
Worth noting, Elvin Accuracy does not work for strength-based attacks. It seems the developers were cognitive not to allow the funny business of marrying Reckless Attack with Elvin Accuracy.
Funny enough if you get hexblade and barb somehow you could do that... But would require some good rolls.
How would the Hexblade help? Reckless Attack requires a strength-based melee attack.
Ah derp you're right... Gotta read the whole thing!
Battle master damage comes from precision attack and offsetting the penalty of the -5
None of these damage calcs matter much without AC ranges....DPR is highly dependant on AC.
Level 20? It's not even worth me validating his numbers. If something is practically worthless at tier's 1 and 2 I move on. That's too much playing time to trudge through getting to the good part, IF you get there. It's how I feel about the Illusionist Wizard. At level 14 Illusory Reality is spectacular, but if you have to wait that long, who cares?
Also, Battle Master is impossible to quantify because there are two many choices and factors that affect the outcomes. Improved Critical is very cut and dry. Every 20 attacks you get an extra critical. All you have to do is plug in the weapon choice. Add things like GWM and you can quantify that as well. I think he's just getting this from someone else's plug-in calculator.
8) EDIT: Reminder, if you added a 1d12 Superiority Die for example, this would not equate to a 6.5 damage bonus - these numbers are hit % adjusted, so with a 1d12 Die you'd likely see close to 6.5 * 0.6 = 3.9 damage increase per use (obviously approximated)
In any situation where you're spending superiority dice for damage (as opposed to varies moves that grant extra attacks) you spend them after rolling to hit, so yes, they're worth 6.5 (actually, a bit more because crits), and you're likely also after status effects. For example, a trip on your first attack is directly worth 6.5 damage, but if you successful knock the target prone, that's advantage on the rest of your attacks.
Also, why on earth would you do a crit fisher build with a battle master? And most people aren't complaining about level 20 performance.
8) EDIT: Reminder, if you added a 1d12 Superiority Die for example, this would not equate to a 6.5 damage bonus - these numbers are hit % adjusted, so with a 1d12 Die you'd likely see close to 6.5 * 0.6 = 3.9 damage increase per use (obviously approximated)
It doesn't make much sense to compare Champions and Battle Masters purely on a 1-round basis. Battle Masters ought to spend their superiority dice before their next short rest, so the real question is how many rounds does it for the Champion's extra crits to add up to the Battle Master's dice damage.
That aside, I'm not 100% sure how to interpret your tables. The first three columns are straightforward, but what is the Adjusted Damage and why is it different in each row?
P.S. I haven't forgotten my end of the bargain, but the way I was doing things in my spreadsheet wasn't scaling well so I spent the last 2 days coming up with a new approach that only requires 1 row per scenario and that can be sorted and filtered.
Worth noting, Elvin Accuracy does not work for strength-based attacks. It seems the developers were cognitive not to allow the funny business of marrying Reckless Attack with Elvin Accuracy.
Funny enough if you get hexblade and barb somehow you could do that... But would require some good rolls.
How would the Hexblade help? Reckless Attack requires a strength-based melee attack.
Ah derp you're right... Gotta read the whole thing!
lol No worries. I've brainstormed every which way to exploit Elvin Accuracy. Hexblade - Devil's Sight - Darkness spell is one way. Another way is a Half-elf Rogue, using Steady Aim or attacking while hidden. The latter way is the most efficient I could come up with.
Here's a kicker: If you go either rout, the only way to take advantage of Sharpshooter or Great Weapon Master, you have to wait until level 8 and if you're doing point buy you only have 16 Dex or Cha (not that it matters much with double-advantage). The combo requires 2 feat.
But... Level 4 Half-elf Rogue + Elvin Accuracy is still really good (in theory, I have not tested it). That's a lot of crits to add to sneak attack damage.
Worth noting, Elvin Accuracy does not work for strength-based attacks. It seems the developers were cognitive not to allow the funny business of marrying Reckless Attack with Elvin Accuracy.
Funny enough if you get hexblade and barb somehow you could do that... But would require some good rolls.
How would the Hexblade help? Reckless Attack requires a strength-based melee attack.
Ah derp you're right... Gotta read the whole thing!
lol No worries. I've brainstormed every which way to exploit Elvin Accuracy. Hexblade - Devil's Sight - Darkness spell is one way. Another way is a Half-elf Rogue, using Steady Aim or attacking while hidden. The latter way is the most efficient I could come up with.
Here's a kicker: If you go either rout, the only way to take advantage of Sharpshooter or Great Weapon Master, you have to wait until level 8 and if you're doing point buy you only have 16 Dex or Cha (not that it matters much with double-advantage). The combo requires 2 feat.
But... Level 4 Half-elf Rogue + Elvin Accuracy is still really good (in theory, I have not tested it). That's a lot of crits to add to sneak attack damage.
Yeah for sure... I think the ol samurai nova bomb is pretty crazy too with Sharpshooter and action surge.
5 rounds of combat is a high estimate, 3.5 rounds is more accurate.
And two combats per short rest is low, for many published campaigns. Rough math is rough.
You’re kidding. Really? (I don’t use WotC campaigns, I either write original content or use the modules I got in 2e.) That right there seems like nothing but a daisy chain of meaningless fights that cannot possibly be very challenging with almost no time left for anything else. No wonder so many players go full hobo these days.
I don’t incorporate nearly that many combat encounters in campaigns. I ratchet the difficulty way up and drop the volume of combat encounters way down. Many “days” the party will see little to no combat at all, more social/skill/exploration encounters. Other days they might see 3-4 Hard-Deadly+ combat encounters and come out breathing heavy. Sure, every once in a while a single combat might take two sessions to complete, but man do they get to feel like a bushel of bad apples after kicking that much butt. And then they are very happy to not see combat for a day or two.
But even those morw difficult combats rarely last more than maybe 5 or 6 total rounds, only the “++” encounters might go longer. (The longest was 15 rounds once as they had to fight off 4 waves of undead. The sheer volume of hostiles and lack of AoE damage dictated the action economy that fight. it was the 4th of 5 Hard-Deadly+ combat encounters that day.)
5 rounds of combat is a high estimate, 3.5 rounds is more accurate.
And two combats per short rest is low, for many published campaigns. Rough math is rough.
You’re kidding. Really? (I don’t use WotC campaigns, I either write original content or use the modules I got in 2e.) That right there seems like nothing but a daisy chain of meaningless fights that cannot possibly be very challenging with almost no time left for anything else. No wonder so many players go full hobo these days.
I don’t incorporate nearly that many combat encounters in campaigns. I ratchet the difficulty way up and drop the volume of combat encounters way down. Many “days” the party will see little to no combat at all, more social/skill/exploration encounters. Other days they might see 3-4 Hard-Deadly+ combat encounters and come out breathing heavy. Sure, every once in a while a single combat might take two sessions to complete, but man do they get to feel like a bushel of bad apples after kicking that much butt. And then they are very happy to not see combat for a day or two.
But even those morw difficult combats rarely last more than maybe 5 or 6 total rounds, only the “++” encounters might go longer. (The longest was 15 rounds once as they had to fight off 4 waves of undead. The sheer volume of hostiles and lack of AoE damage dictated the action economy that fight. it was the 4th of 5 Hard-Deadly+ combat encounters that day.)
My table also typically has 'travel days' where we might encounter weather or an obstacle but not a fight. One the days we DO, we often have a skirmish (likely a random encounter) before whatever the real fight is. We plan for this so the skirmish doesn't eat up a lot of resources.
I've seen one battle go more than ten rounds and THAT was a grinder and no mistake! The look on everyone's face as the 'one minute' spells started to drop off was epic!
If I were to pick a scenario where the Champion shines, it's a dungeon crawl where enemies actually patrol through areas or go looking when someone's late on coming back from a lookout shift; whistles, war horns, the whole enchilada. A party shouldn't be allowed to take a short rest in the middle of hostile territory without interruptions, and the front door is no exception.
If I were to pick a scenario where the Champion shines, it's a dungeon crawl where enemies actually patrol through areas or go looking when someone's late on coming back from a lookout shift; whistles, war horns, the whole enchilada. A party shouldn't be allowed to take a short rest in the middle of hostile territory without interruptions, and the front door is no exception.
Let's consider a fight against infinite orcs (AC 13) at level 5 (attack bonus +7), using a greatsword with great weapon fighting.
Over 20 attacks, the Champion hits 15 times, of which 2 are crits. This gets him +8.33 damage.
Over 20 attacks, the Battle Master hits (unaided) 15 times, of which 1 is a crit. He also converts 3 misses to hits by using Precision Attack. This gets him +37 damage.
After 20 attacks, the BM is out of dice. Thus, the champion starts catching up at a range of 0.416 per attack. After another 69 attacks, he pulls ahead.
That's 89 attacks for him to pull ahead. Assuming a 25% chance to get an opportunity attacks, 40 rounds.
40 rounds of combat will kill the part many times over (if he's only attacked once per round, our AC 18 fighter takes 165 damage, which is close to 4x his hp, and other PCs are even deader).
The Champion really shines for the folks who have the same kinda dice luck as my group’s main GM. I have stopped counting how many crit’s he’s rolled when he had disadvantage on the attack. It’s disgusting. (And it sucks ssooo hard when he does it as the GM.) No joke, one of our most popular houserules is that every one else at the table can call upon him make a single d20 roll for us once per session. Even the other DMs in the group in their own campaigns, and even in his campaigns too. I roll all his 1s, he rolls all my 20s, I feel like DeVito’s character in Twins.
Or perhaps Lord Helmet in Spaceballs when they were combing the desert and Colonel Sanders asked why they weren’t going into the secret entrance they had found because Helmet realized the Yogurt would be down there. “He got the upside, and I got the downside. You see there’s two sides to every Schwartz.”
Battle master damage comes from precision attack and offsetting the penalty of the -5
None of these damage calcs matter much without AC ranges....DPR is highly dependant on AC.
Level 20? It's not even worth me validating his numbers. If something is practically worthless at tier's 1 and 2 I move on. That's too much playing time to trudge through getting to the good part, IF you get there. It's how I feel about the Illusionist Wizard. At level 14 Illusory Reality is spectacular, but if you have to wait that long, who cares?
Also, Battle Master is impossible to quantify because there are two many choices and factors that affect the outcomes. Improved Critical is very cut and dry. Every 20 attacks you get an extra critical. All you have to do is plug in the weapon choice. Add things like GWM and you can quantify that as well. I think he's just getting this from someone else's plug-in calculator.
I only chose level 20 because I was testing it out, I can go through other levels just as easily. Lol
I program and make spreadsheets myself, I’ll transfer to google docs specifically just for you.
8) EDIT: Reminder, if you added a 1d12 Superiority Die for example, this would not equate to a 6.5 damage bonus - these numbers are hit % adjusted, so with a 1d12 Die you'd likely see close to 6.5 * 0.6 = 3.9 damage increase per use (obviously approximated)
It doesn't make much sense to compare Champions and Battle Masters purely on a 1-round basis. Battle Masters ought to spend their superiority dice before their next short rest, so the real question is how many rounds does it for the Champion's extra crits to add up to the Battle Master's dice damage.
That aside, I'm not 100% sure how to interpret your tables. The first three columns are straightforward, but what is the Adjusted Damage and why is it different in each row?
P.S. I haven't forgotten my end of the bargain, but the way I was doing things in my spreadsheet wasn't scaling well so I spent the last 2 days coming up with a new approach that only requires 1 row per scenario and that can be sorted and filtered.
The point is to reduce all of the variables of Superiority Dice out of the equation so that assessment can be made separately. Adjusted damage is the potential damage if Crusher procs and further attacks that round are made at advantage.
I’ll share my sheet in google docs in the next couple of days. I like your sheet too 🙂
If I were to pick a scenario where the Champion shines, it's a dungeon crawl where enemies actually patrol through areas or go looking when someone's late on coming back from a lookout shift; whistles, war horns, the whole enchilada. A party shouldn't be allowed to take a short rest in the middle of hostile territory without interruptions, and the front door is no exception.
Let's consider a fight against infinite orcs (AC 13) at level 5 (attack bonus +7), using a greatsword with great weapon fighting.
Over 20 attacks, the Champion hits 15 times, of which 2 are crits. This gets him +8.33 damage.
Over 20 attacks, the Battle Master hits (unaided) 15 times, of which 1 is a crit. He also converts 3 misses to hits by using Precision Attack. This gets him +37 damage.
After 20 attacks, the BM is out of dice. Thus, the champion starts catching up at a range of 0.416 per attack. After another 69 attacks, he pulls ahead.
That's 89 attacks for him to pull ahead. Assuming a 25% chance to get an opportunity attacks, 40 rounds.
40 rounds of combat will kill the part many times over (if he's only attacked once per round, our AC 18 fighter takes 165 damage, which is close to 4x his hp, and other PCs are even deader).
If you’re a Champion you’re definitely taking P/S/C or GWM Feats to capitalize on the higher crit range. This is not encompassed in the results.
GWM alone will improve the chance of a bonus attack each round by 18.54% for a Champion and only 9.75% for a Battlemaster. Over 20 attacks that’s 1.75 more attacks which is 12.333*1.75 = 21.5 damage. This reduces the break even to maybe 7-8 rounds?
My spreadsheet will take this into consideration as well. Just working on it today 🙂
Battle master damage comes from precision attack and offsetting the penalty of the -5
None of these damage calcs matter much without AC ranges....DPR is highly dependant on AC.
Level 20? It's not even worth me validating his numbers. If something is practically worthless at tier's 1 and 2 I move on. That's too much playing time to trudge through getting to the good part, IF you get there. It's how I feel about the Illusionist Wizard. At level 14 Illusory Reality is spectacular, but if you have to wait that long, who cares?
Also, Battle Master is impossible to quantify because there are two many choices and factors that affect the outcomes. Improved Critical is very cut and dry. Every 20 attacks you get an extra critical. All you have to do is plug in the weapon choice. Add things like GWM and you can quantify that as well. I think he's just getting this from someone else's plug-in calculator.
I only chose level 20 because I was testing it out, I can go through other levels just as easily. Lol
I program and make spreadsheets myself, I’ll transfer to google docs specifically just for you.
What formula did you use to calculate the extra damage for Precision Attack? What formula did you use to calculate the average added damage after Trip Attack results in follow-up attacks?
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Doing some preliminary numbers on some Champion/Battlemaster damage comparisons... here's what I have so far. These all assumed level 20 currently but I plan to scale it to lower levels with time. With Maul/Crusher/GWF, the increase in damage is around 24%. With TWF and 2 Flails, the increase in damage is around 12%. I could conceive a situation where it would be further improved with an Action Surge when Crusher procs, but that's not looked at below. I also did not calculate the odds of getting a killing blow with GWM and getting the free attack. What is included below:
1) Chance of hitting AC 20, with maxxed attack stats.
2) Normal weapon only
3) Target AC 20
4) Cumulative chance of a crit improves chances of being able to proc Crusher and Advantage on future attacks
5) Cumulative chance of a crit also improves chanced of being able to proc GWM Bonus Attack
6) Average damage for a flail is 4.5
7) Average damage for a maul with GWF Style is 8.334
8) EDIT: Reminder, if you added a 1d12 Superiority Die for example, this would not equate to a 6.5 damage bonus - these numbers are hit % adjusted, so with a 1d12 Die you'd likely see close to 6.5 * 0.6 = 3.9 damage increase per use (obviously approximated)
Battle master damage comes from precision attack and offsetting the penalty of the -5
None of these damage calcs matter much without AC ranges....DPR is highly dependant on AC.
How would the Hexblade help? Reckless Attack requires a strength-based melee attack.
Ah derp you're right... Gotta read the whole thing!
Level 20? It's not even worth me validating his numbers. If something is practically worthless at tier's 1 and 2 I move on. That's too much playing time to trudge through getting to the good part, IF you get there. It's how I feel about the Illusionist Wizard. At level 14 Illusory Reality is spectacular, but if you have to wait that long, who cares?
Also, Battle Master is impossible to quantify because there are two many choices and factors that affect the outcomes. Improved Critical is very cut and dry. Every 20 attacks you get an extra critical. All you have to do is plug in the weapon choice. Add things like GWM and you can quantify that as well. I think he's just getting this from someone else's plug-in calculator.
There are other effects that can also contribute to damage, but you have to decide how many rounds of combat you're looking at, and what maneuvers.
In any situation where you're spending superiority dice for damage (as opposed to varies moves that grant extra attacks) you spend them after rolling to hit, so yes, they're worth 6.5 (actually, a bit more because crits), and you're likely also after status effects. For example, a trip on your first attack is directly worth 6.5 damage, but if you successful knock the target prone, that's advantage on the rest of your attacks.
Also, why on earth would you do a crit fisher build with a battle master? And most people aren't complaining about level 20 performance.
It doesn't make much sense to compare Champions and Battle Masters purely on a 1-round basis. Battle Masters ought to spend their superiority dice before their next short rest, so the real question is how many rounds does it for the Champion's extra crits to add up to the Battle Master's dice damage.
That aside, I'm not 100% sure how to interpret your tables. The first three columns are straightforward, but what is the Adjusted Damage and why is it different in each row?
P.S. I haven't forgotten my end of the bargain, but the way I was doing things in my spreadsheet wasn't scaling well so I spent the last 2 days coming up with a new approach that only requires 1 row per scenario and that can be sorted and filtered.
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lol No worries. I've brainstormed every which way to exploit Elvin Accuracy. Hexblade - Devil's Sight - Darkness spell is one way. Another way is a Half-elf Rogue, using Steady Aim or attacking while hidden. The latter way is the most efficient I could come up with.
Here's a kicker: If you go either rout, the only way to take advantage of Sharpshooter or Great Weapon Master, you have to wait until level 8 and if you're doing point buy you only have 16 Dex or Cha (not that it matters much with double-advantage). The combo requires 2 feat.
But... Level 4 Half-elf Rogue + Elvin Accuracy is still really good (in theory, I have not tested it). That's a lot of crits to add to sneak attack damage.
Yeah for sure... I think the ol samurai nova bomb is pretty crazy too with Sharpshooter and action surge.
You’re kidding. Really? (I don’t use WotC campaigns, I either write original content or use the modules I got in 2e.) That right there seems like nothing but a daisy chain of meaningless fights that cannot possibly be very challenging with almost no time left for anything else. No wonder so many players go full hobo these days.
I don’t incorporate nearly that many combat encounters in campaigns. I ratchet the difficulty way up and drop the volume of combat encounters way down. Many “days” the party will see little to no combat at all, more social/skill/exploration encounters. Other days they might see 3-4 Hard-Deadly+ combat encounters and come out breathing heavy. Sure, every once in a while a single combat might take two sessions to complete, but man do they get to feel like a bushel of bad apples after kicking that much butt. And then they are very happy to not see combat for a day or two.
But even those morw difficult combats rarely last more than maybe 5 or 6 total rounds, only the “++” encounters might go longer.
(The longest was 15 rounds once as they had to fight off 4 waves of undead. The sheer volume of hostiles and lack of AoE damage dictated the action economy that fight. it was the 4th of 5 Hard-Deadly+ combat encounters that day.)
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I'd be curious which campaigns he's thinking about. The ones I've seen are more prone to "let's blow your daily encounter budget in one fight".
As for 10+ rounds of combat per short rest: I've yet to run a 5 round combat where two of them between short rests wouldn't be a probable TPK.
My table also typically has 'travel days' where we might encounter weather or an obstacle but not a fight. One the days we DO, we often have a skirmish (likely a random encounter) before whatever the real fight is. We plan for this so the skirmish doesn't eat up a lot of resources.
I've seen one battle go more than ten rounds and THAT was a grinder and no mistake! The look on everyone's face as the 'one minute' spells started to drop off was epic!
If I were to pick a scenario where the Champion shines, it's a dungeon crawl where enemies actually patrol through areas or go looking when someone's late on coming back from a lookout shift; whistles, war horns, the whole enchilada. A party shouldn't be allowed to take a short rest in the middle of hostile territory without interruptions, and the front door is no exception.
Let's consider a fight against infinite orcs (AC 13) at level 5 (attack bonus +7), using a greatsword with great weapon fighting.
That's 89 attacks for him to pull ahead. Assuming a 25% chance to get an opportunity attacks, 40 rounds.
40 rounds of combat will kill the part many times over (if he's only attacked once per round, our AC 18 fighter takes 165 damage, which is close to 4x his hp, and other PCs are even deader).
The Champion really shines for the folks who have the same kinda dice luck as my group’s main GM. I have stopped counting how many crit’s he’s rolled when he had disadvantage on the attack. It’s disgusting. (And it sucks ssooo hard when he does it as the GM.) No joke, one of our most popular houserules is that every one else at the table can call upon him make a single d20 roll for us once per session. Even the other DMs in the group in their own campaigns, and even in his campaigns too. I roll all his 1s, he rolls all my 20s, I feel like DeVito’s character in Twins.
Or perhaps Lord Helmet in Spaceballs when they were combing the desert and Colonel Sanders asked why they weren’t going into the secret entrance they had found because Helmet realized the Yogurt would be down there. “He got the upside, and I got the downside. You see there’s two sides to every Schwartz.”
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Im working on that next. I’ll transfer this over to google docs so you can play with the numbers as well.
I only chose level 20 because I was testing it out, I can go through other levels just as easily. Lol
I program and make spreadsheets myself, I’ll transfer to google docs specifically just for you.
The point is to reduce all of the variables of Superiority Dice out of the equation so that assessment can be made separately. Adjusted damage is the potential damage if Crusher procs and further attacks that round are made at advantage.
I’ll share my sheet in google docs in the next couple of days. I like your sheet too 🙂
If you’re a Champion you’re definitely taking P/S/C or GWM Feats to capitalize on the higher crit range. This is not encompassed in the results.
GWM alone will improve the chance of a bonus attack each round by 18.54% for a Champion and only 9.75% for a Battlemaster. Over 20 attacks that’s 1.75 more attacks which is 12.333*1.75 = 21.5 damage. This reduces the break even to maybe 7-8 rounds?
My spreadsheet will take this into consideration as well. Just working on it today 🙂
What formula did you use to calculate the extra damage for Precision Attack? What formula did you use to calculate the average added damage after Trip Attack results in follow-up attacks?