trying to build a scenario where a character is unknowingly getting into a contract with a disguised devil - trying to make it appear like a regular humanoid...however, i can't seem to get solidly past the simple problem of detect evil and good. i can use an agent of the devil, but was hoping a devil itself so that there's no need to sign a paper contract, just a verbal agreement.
Since many devils have innate spell casting, I can create a devil that can cast arcanists magic aura on itself (or have one of its minions cast it)...and combine that with alter self...however, that doesn't get around dispel magic since those are both low level spells. There's counterspell and such, but i don't want the characters to know any of their spells failed or the whole scenario breaks down.
i suppose i could do something like the cloak of shadows (which was actually the remnants of a doomed cleric) created by the Malaugrym (from the aptly named book Cloak of Shadows), which completely hid their true nature from even the most powerful observers...but was hoping for something a little less homebrew (even though its based on cannon).
anyone have thoughts on fairly sure-fire methods of hiding a devil's identity from players (for tier 1-2 characters).
Are your players that suspicious that they go around casting detect evil and dispel magic on everyone they meet?
I’d ust go for it and not worry. Seems to me like the bigger issue would be them wanting to make an insight check, since no amount of spells can really get past die luck.
thanks - insight is easy as i'd just make it DC 30 or so...the devil has spent half an eternity playing its game. but you're right, i think i just need to make the scenario believable enough they wouldn't be suspicious of the person they just helped save.
Whenever I find myself in a situation like this that boils down to, "How can I be absolutely sure the PCs will fail to do X even if they try everything they've got?" I take a step back.
Do you really need the PCs to fail here? Can you figure out a way to move the story forward even if they figured out this guy was a devil? What if the thing he offered was compelling enough that they'd consider talking with him anyway?
Is it really fair to trick the PCs even when they suspect you're doing something and use class spells and features designed for this exact purpose?
It might be worth some time to rework this situation.
good pionts...i don't need them to fail, just the scene ends pretty quickly if they notice they're talking to a devil. the devil gives the characters choices to make, which i'm trying to make the real crux of the adventure. nothing wrong with 'hey, something stinks, i'm out'....so maybe DC 20 insight check.
Here's the important detail about Detect Evil and Good:
"You know if there is an aberration, celestial, elemental, fey, fiend, or undead within 30 feet of you, as well as where the creature is located."
Keep in mind... the spell doesn't say that they can tell the difference..****y that whoever they are talking to is one of the creature types listed. So even if they cast the spell successfully, the devil could very easily claim to be a Celestial... or just be coy and not explain themselves further.
hmmm, aside from appearance, nondetection doesn't allow it to be targeted by divination spells....but you don't have to select a target for detect evil and good
If the characters are suspicious enough to spend spell slots on dispel magic without casting detect magic first or after finding that the person didn't have a magical aura, the ruse has already pretty much failed.
Even so, a hidden caster with counterspell could cause it to fail, the characters would know it failed, but they wouldn't know why since it only has somatic components. Alternatively, you could have the disguise spells upcast to 4th level or higher so they'd have to roll for it.
Wanting to guarantee the story goes a particular way does make me think of railroading if the party manage to circumnavigate a an encounteror sub quest by smart play, good rolls so be it.
Having said that if the party are in the habit of casting multiple spells to check every NPC they meet is who they say t6hey areas a DM I would be inclined to present them with a combat encounter when they have used most of their spells on perfectly innocent social encounters.
When your Adventurers meet the devil tell the players exactly what it is, that their Adventurers don't know and that he's going to try and get the Adventurers to try and sign a one sided contract. What do the Adventurers do?
That'll make them and you less worried about concealing shit from each other and probably bring out some better roleplaying in the end.
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trying to build a scenario where a character is unknowingly getting into a contract with a disguised devil - trying to make it appear like a regular humanoid...however, i can't seem to get solidly past the simple problem of detect evil and good. i can use an agent of the devil, but was hoping a devil itself so that there's no need to sign a paper contract, just a verbal agreement.
Since many devils have innate spell casting, I can create a devil that can cast arcanists magic aura on itself (or have one of its minions cast it)...and combine that with alter self...however, that doesn't get around dispel magic since those are both low level spells. There's counterspell and such, but i don't want the characters to know any of their spells failed or the whole scenario breaks down.
i suppose i could do something like the cloak of shadows (which was actually the remnants of a doomed cleric) created by the Malaugrym (from the aptly named book Cloak of Shadows), which completely hid their true nature from even the most powerful observers...but was hoping for something a little less homebrew (even though its based on cannon).
anyone have thoughts on fairly sure-fire methods of hiding a devil's identity from players (for tier 1-2 characters).
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
Are your players that suspicious that they go around casting detect evil and dispel magic on everyone they meet?
I’d ust go for it and not worry. Seems to me like the bigger issue would be them wanting to make an insight check, since no amount of spells can really get past die luck.
thanks - insight is easy as i'd just make it DC 30 or so...the devil has spent half an eternity playing its game. but you're right, i think i just need to make the scenario believable enough they wouldn't be suspicious of the person they just helped save.
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
Whenever I find myself in a situation like this that boils down to, "How can I be absolutely sure the PCs will fail to do X even if they try everything they've got?" I take a step back.
Do you really need the PCs to fail here? Can you figure out a way to move the story forward even if they figured out this guy was a devil? What if the thing he offered was compelling enough that they'd consider talking with him anyway?
Is it really fair to trick the PCs even when they suspect you're doing something and use class spells and features designed for this exact purpose?
It might be worth some time to rework this situation.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
good pionts...i don't need them to fail, just the scene ends pretty quickly if they notice they're talking to a devil. the devil gives the characters choices to make, which i'm trying to make the real crux of the adventure. nothing wrong with 'hey, something stinks, i'm out'....so maybe DC 20 insight check.
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
Here's the important detail about Detect Evil and Good:
"You know if there is an aberration, celestial, elemental, fey, fiend, or undead within 30 feet of you, as well as where the creature is located."
Keep in mind... the spell doesn't say that they can tell the difference..****y that whoever they are talking to is one of the creature types listed. So even if they cast the spell successfully, the devil could very easily claim to be a Celestial... or just be coy and not explain themselves further.
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Why can’t the devil just cast Nondetection?
Professional computer geek
hmmm, aside from appearance, nondetection doesn't allow it to be targeted by divination spells....but you don't have to select a target for detect evil and good
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
Use a Rakshasa.
Have a look at thr archdevil Titivilus. Mislead and Alter Self should solve your problem.
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]If the characters are suspicious enough to spend spell slots on dispel magic without casting detect magic first or after finding that the person didn't have a magical aura, the ruse has already pretty much failed.
Even so, a hidden caster with counterspell could cause it to fail, the characters would know it failed, but they wouldn't know why since it only has somatic components. Alternatively, you could have the disguise spells upcast to 4th level or higher so they'd have to roll for it.
Wanting to guarantee the story goes a particular way does make me think of railroading if the party manage to circumnavigate a an encounteror sub quest by smart play, good rolls so be it.
Having said that if the party are in the habit of casting multiple spells to check every NPC they meet is who they say t6hey areas a DM I would be inclined to present them with a combat encounter when they have used most of their spells on perfectly innocent social encounters.
Here's a suggestion...
When your Adventurers meet the devil tell the players exactly what it is, that their Adventurers don't know and that he's going to try and get the Adventurers to try and sign a one sided contract. What do the Adventurers do?
That'll make them and you less worried about concealing shit from each other and probably bring out some better roleplaying in the end.