So, I have a few issues with the new version of the Bard. First, while I like use of Proficiency Bonus to determine the number of uses of certain features, I was fine with the previous version of the Bard getting Charisma mod uses of Bardic Inspiration per long rest (short rest at level 5). This might not seem super relevant to the title of this thread, but I assure you, it ties in.
The Arcane Spell list is a mishmash of every Sorcerer, Wizard, Warlock, and Bard spell list in the game (save Eldritch Blast, which I suspect will be its own class feature now). The Bard's previous identity was largely that of a utility caster that could hand out Bardic Inspiration like candy and occasionally deal damage with magic. Now that it can prepare spells (which, I suspect the Sorcerer will as well), I don't see the two classes as being very different from each other.
Hopefully, they figure this out by the time they release the spellcasters playtest document. I would strongly advise giving constructive feedback on the matter. Don't just say "WotC ruined everything", say what you dislike about the changes and what you'd like to see instead.
I don't like the change to bardic inspiration, but I'm not sure how to fix it. They changed it from a bonus action to a reaction on a failed D20 test, which theoretically makes it more powerful. But they made it less flexible since you can't give it out to multiple people at once. And it significantly nerfs the number of uses at lower levels. Proficiency bonus + 1 would feel a lot better. Or maybe let the bard refresh a use of bardic inspiration as a bonus action (once per long rest).
As the rules are right now, 2 uses per long rest until you hit level 5 feels bad.
As for spells, I guess it gives bards more flexibility, but I sort of agree that it removes some of the uniqueness of the bard's spell list. I'm definitely looking for spells with bonus action casting time now that bardic inspiration is strictly a reaction. And it's a shame that now bardic inspiration is fighting with the action economy of other bard spells like Silvery Barbs.
The delay to jack of all trades also feels like the bards got a huge skill nerf. (ranger as well lost a lot of shared party benefits but that may be a different thread)
Probably if they move back jack of all trades the bard should be allowed to self-inspire but then it probably would be used a lot more selfishly. I lean towards "the feature distribution in 5e balanced kind of well for bards" and they shouldn't ruin a good thing.
The changes to magical secrets may be better off in the end allowing changes within skill lists but the loss of lore bards magical secrets makes the school related choices feel a lot more restrictive.
Bard's actual prepared spells are going to look quite a bit different from a Sorcs because of the school limitations in place and the always prepared spells.
Yeah, my hope had been a class might have access to a list maybe limited like how the bards is but they would also have a separate list of bard spells on top of their arcane spells, the closest we see to that is the small list from the restoration feature. As is I do feel like a lot of spell casters will feel very samey.
Would much rather they added a 4th power source for bards and warlocks.
While I would not mind a fourth list I don't really see much thematic similarities between the bard and warlock for spellcasting. Warlocks really are arcanists imo.
My first Bard was 2nd Edition. I loved that they had a spellbook. Part of the always learning, picking up things in your travels and dabbling in various ideas suggests that they should learn as they go. I would prefer them to be able to learn spells like and keep them in a spellbook (or porfolio). Giving them access to large sections of the spell list and just letting them prepare makes them feel more like divine casters. I would rather limit the spell list (as they did) but not give full access to the list rather those are spells that if they find in their travels can learn and add to that porfolio. It would make it feel more like a learning as you go vagabond musician. Rather than at this level I know can cast any spell from these schools of magic as the playtest shows.
Would much rather they added a 4th power source for bards and warlocks.
While I would not mind a fourth list I don't really see much thematic similarities between the bard and warlock for spellcasting. Warlocks really are arcanists imo.
In pathfinder, warlocks are the 'witch' class, which definitely leans more into the occult themes.
Though perhaps sorcerers and warlocks should get their spell list from their subclass? As why should a divine sorcerer or celestial warlock use the same list as an aberrant sorcerer or a goolock?
Would much rather they added a 4th power source for bards and warlocks.
While I would not mind a fourth list I don't really see much thematic similarities between the bard and warlock for spellcasting. Warlocks really are arcanists imo.
They're not. Ignoring playtest material and focusing on the 5E PHB, here's how every class gets its spells:
Artificers, Bards, Wizards: Studying magic until you learn how to use it. For all three, theoretically the core skill is Arcana, although there's a strong argument in favor (again in theory, not in practice) that Bards would be Performance and study how music leads to magic.
Clerics, some Druids, Warlocks: An absurdly powerful patron empowers you; your spells are intuitive.
Clerics: This is dynamic - you need ongoing permission to get power (if 2 Clerics of Pelor come to real, genuine odds, Pelor will presumably strip at least one of their power). Theoretically, the core Cleric ability is Insight, so you can understand what your deity wants.
Some Druids are clerics of deities who grant Druidic powers rather than Clerical.
Warlocks: This is static - power your patron gives you permanently alters you so that you have it now, so you can abandon your patron and you keep what you have (2 Warlocks of one of Pelor's angels being at odds will mean, if the angel finds out, at least one Warlock is not being given any additional power until there's been a Lecture). Theoretically, the core Warlock ability is Persuasion, so you can Persuade your Patron to give you more power.
Paladins, Sorcerers: Your powers come from within - Paladins believe so hard that reality shapes itself to their will and Sorcerers have to learn how to use the incredible powers latent within them, but on a fundamental level, both are their own patron.
Theoretically the core ability for Sorcerers is History, to learn about where their powers came from.
Theoretically the core ability for Paladins is Wisdom saves, because that's usually what you use to prevent magic from changing your mind and 5E has no system for opposing Persuasion or Intimidation checks.
Rangers, Non-Deity Druids: Unknown. The 5E PHB offers no explanation of how Rangers learn magic, it simply states that they do via "familiarity with the wilds", and Druids gain their powers from "nature itself" without any explanation of how.I could make up fluff that wouldn't contradict the PHB that would put them both with Bards and Wizards - or I could make stuff up that would put Druids, at least, with Paladins. Just no idea.
My personal theory is that Rangers belong with Artificers, Bards, and Wizards because they learn how Nature magic works, while Druids belong with Paladins - they believe how Nature ought to work and bend it to their will.
In terms of shared spell lists:
Clerics, Warlocks, Paladins, and Sorcerers should have subclass-specific spell lists, because no 2 of them are alike. 2 Sorcerers with different bloodlines should only have spell list overlap by sheer coincidence - the same logic applies to Warlocks of different Patrons, Clerics of different deities, and in spades to Paladins of different Oaths.
Artificers, Bards, and Wizards should share a core spell list as all of them study magic in a fundamentally similar way.
Rangers and Druids explicitly work similarly, however it is they work, so them sharing a spell list makes sense.
Would much rather they added a 4th power source for bards and warlocks.
While I would not mind a fourth list I don't really see much thematic similarities between the bard and warlock for spellcasting. Warlocks really are arcanists imo.
In pathfinder, warlocks are the 'witch' class, which definitely leans more into the occult themes.
Though perhaps sorcerers and warlocks should get their spell list from their subclass? As why should a divine sorcerer or celestial warlock use the same list as an aberrant sorcerer or a goolock?
I can imagine subclasses that open up further spells... like, there could be some kind of "blaster" bard that gains access to Evocation spells.
Would much rather they added a 4th power source for bards and warlocks.
While I would not mind a fourth list I don't really see much thematic similarities between the bard and warlock for spellcasting. Warlocks really are arcanists imo.
They're not. Ignoring playtest material and focusing on the 5E PHB, here's how every class gets its spells:
They are, you are focusing on the one aspect they get their power from patron, but not who they are. They make these pacts as they are seekers of knowledge diving into the arcane making pacts to further their knowledge beyond the realms of mortals. They are arcanists as much as wizards are, maybe even more so.
I do somewhat agree that each patron should give entirely unique spell lists, but I don't see that as functional in a game that is trying to be easy.
Would much rather they added a 4th power source for bards and warlocks.
While I would not mind a fourth list I don't really see much thematic similarities between the bard and warlock for spellcasting. Warlocks really are arcanists imo.
In pathfinder, warlocks are the 'witch' class, which definitely leans more into the occult themes.
Though perhaps sorcerers and warlocks should get their spell list from their subclass? As why should a divine sorcerer or celestial warlock use the same list as an aberrant sorcerer or a goolock?
I can imagine subclasses that open up further spells... like, there could be some kind of "blaster" bard that gains access to Evocation spells.
That is something to suggest for the lore bard as well, have all bards gain special lists based on their college.
Honestly, I was surprised to see that the new Lore Bard dropped the additional magical secrets. I guess there might be concern that it's too potent of an ability at earlier levels since it was changed to a Prepared spell feature instead of just spells known.
Ok, so now that I'm off work, I've reread the documents more thoroughly, and I do feel a little better about it now. I realize now that Bards are prohibited from 4 of the 8 schools of magic (barring Magical Secrets). So, yes, they will definitely play differently than most people would ever play a Sorcerer.
Ok, so now that I'm off work, I've reread the documents more thoroughly, and I do feel a little better about it now. I realize now that Bards are prohibited from 4 of the 8 schools of magic (barring Magical Secrets). So, yes, they will definitely play differently than most people would ever play a Sorcerer.
I'm kind of curious if sorcerers will have a similar limit but with the other 1/2 the schools. Honestly while i can work with bards being prep casters as they are more of a lore, learning based spell caster, sorcerers not being known does not feel right so i hope they stay known.
The big ones are mage hand, light and dancing lights, Unseen Servant, Thunderwave and shatter, DISPEL MAGIC, and SENDING.... My opinion a few of these are pretty Iconic bard spells.
Yeah. I’ve played about 5 bards and I won’t be able to replicate the spell list for any of them under these new rules. And most of them are utility spells, buffs and debuffs, and not damage spells. So they seem to be making bards worse at what a bard should be doing.
Bards are skills, magic, and swords wrapped in one, right? The change to using bardic inspiration as a reaction and the light weapon rule makes this a thing that I'd like to see more opportunities for them to swing those weapons effectively and cast spells, while not trampling the top dogs of each focus. I think the new spell list helps that to happen.
Maybe I'd like to see magical secrets happen just a bit sooner with this? Not sure. I'm trying to give this bottle a chance to breathe as we wait to see how things like warriors and mages pan out
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So, I have a few issues with the new version of the Bard. First, while I like use of Proficiency Bonus to determine the number of uses of certain features, I was fine with the previous version of the Bard getting Charisma mod uses of Bardic Inspiration per long rest (short rest at level 5). This might not seem super relevant to the title of this thread, but I assure you, it ties in.
The Arcane Spell list is a mishmash of every Sorcerer, Wizard, Warlock, and Bard spell list in the game (save Eldritch Blast, which I suspect will be its own class feature now). The Bard's previous identity was largely that of a utility caster that could hand out Bardic Inspiration like candy and occasionally deal damage with magic. Now that it can prepare spells (which, I suspect the Sorcerer will as well), I don't see the two classes as being very different from each other.
Hopefully, they figure this out by the time they release the spellcasters playtest document. I would strongly advise giving constructive feedback on the matter. Don't just say "WotC ruined everything", say what you dislike about the changes and what you'd like to see instead.
I don't like the change to bardic inspiration, but I'm not sure how to fix it. They changed it from a bonus action to a reaction on a failed D20 test, which theoretically makes it more powerful. But they made it less flexible since you can't give it out to multiple people at once. And it significantly nerfs the number of uses at lower levels. Proficiency bonus + 1 would feel a lot better. Or maybe let the bard refresh a use of bardic inspiration as a bonus action (once per long rest).
As the rules are right now, 2 uses per long rest until you hit level 5 feels bad.
As for spells, I guess it gives bards more flexibility, but I sort of agree that it removes some of the uniqueness of the bard's spell list. I'm definitely looking for spells with bonus action casting time now that bardic inspiration is strictly a reaction. And it's a shame that now bardic inspiration is fighting with the action economy of other bard spells like Silvery Barbs.
The delay to jack of all trades also feels like the bards got a huge skill nerf. (ranger as well lost a lot of shared party benefits but that may be a different thread)
Probably if they move back jack of all trades the bard should be allowed to self-inspire but then it probably would be used a lot more selfishly. I lean towards "the feature distribution in 5e balanced kind of well for bards" and they shouldn't ruin a good thing.
The changes to magical secrets may be better off in the end allowing changes within skill lists but the loss of lore bards magical secrets makes the school related choices feel a lot more restrictive.
Not a fan of Bards using the arcane spell list.
Would much rather they added a 4th power source for bards and warlocks.
Bard's actual prepared spells are going to look quite a bit different from a Sorcs because of the school limitations in place and the always prepared spells.
I just don’t think Bards should be prepared spellcasters at all.
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Yeah, my hope had been a class might have access to a list maybe limited like how the bards is but they would also have a separate list of bard spells on top of their arcane spells, the closest we see to that is the small list from the restoration feature. As is I do feel like a lot of spell casters will feel very samey.
While I would not mind a fourth list I don't really see much thematic similarities between the bard and warlock for spellcasting. Warlocks really are arcanists imo.
My first Bard was 2nd Edition. I loved that they had a spellbook. Part of the always learning, picking up things in your travels and dabbling in various ideas suggests that they should learn as they go. I would prefer them to be able to learn spells like and keep them in a spellbook (or porfolio). Giving them access to large sections of the spell list and just letting them prepare makes them feel more like divine casters. I would rather limit the spell list (as they did) but not give full access to the list rather those are spells that if they find in their travels can learn and add to that porfolio. It would make it feel more like a learning as you go vagabond musician. Rather than at this level I know can cast any spell from these schools of magic as the playtest shows.
In pathfinder, warlocks are the 'witch' class, which definitely leans more into the occult themes.
Though perhaps sorcerers and warlocks should get their spell list from their subclass? As why should a divine sorcerer or celestial warlock use the same list as an aberrant sorcerer or a goolock?
They're not. Ignoring playtest material and focusing on the 5E PHB, here's how every class gets its spells:
In terms of shared spell lists:
I can imagine subclasses that open up further spells... like, there could be some kind of "blaster" bard that gains access to Evocation spells.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
They are, you are focusing on the one aspect they get their power from patron, but not who they are. They make these pacts as they are seekers of knowledge diving into the arcane making pacts to further their knowledge beyond the realms of mortals. They are arcanists as much as wizards are, maybe even more so.
I do somewhat agree that each patron should give entirely unique spell lists, but I don't see that as functional in a game that is trying to be easy.
That is something to suggest for the lore bard as well, have all bards gain special lists based on their college.
Honestly, I was surprised to see that the new Lore Bard dropped the additional magical secrets. I guess there might be concern that it's too potent of an ability at earlier levels since it was changed to a Prepared spell feature instead of just spells known.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Ok, so now that I'm off work, I've reread the documents more thoroughly, and I do feel a little better about it now. I realize now that Bards are prohibited from 4 of the 8 schools of magic (barring Magical Secrets). So, yes, they will definitely play differently than most people would ever play a Sorcerer.
I'm kind of curious if sorcerers will have a similar limit but with the other 1/2 the schools. Honestly while i can work with bards being prep casters as they are more of a lore, learning based spell caster, sorcerers not being known does not feel right so i hope they stay known.
This is the list of spells (minus the songs of restoration spells) that the bard is LOSING with this change https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells?filter-class=1&filter-school=3&filter-school=4&filter-school=7&filter-school=9&filter-search=&sort=level
The big ones are mage hand, light and dancing lights, Unseen Servant, Thunderwave and shatter, DISPEL MAGIC, and SENDING.... My opinion a few of these are pretty Iconic bard spells.
Yeah. I’ve played about 5 bards and I won’t be able to replicate the spell list for any of them under these new rules. And most of them are utility spells, buffs and debuffs, and not damage spells. So they seem to be making bards worse at what a bard should be doing.
Bards are skills, magic, and swords wrapped in one, right? The change to using bardic inspiration as a reaction and the light weapon rule makes this a thing that I'd like to see more opportunities for them to swing those weapons effectively and cast spells, while not trampling the top dogs of each focus. I think the new spell list helps that to happen.
Maybe I'd like to see magical secrets happen just a bit sooner with this? Not sure. I'm trying to give this bottle a chance to breathe as we wait to see how things like warriors and mages pan out
Paladin - warforged - orange