This is false because the number one thing that druids can’t do while in Wild Shape, until much later in the game, is cast spells.
It's not false because that's precisely the point; when you're done with wildshape you still have just as many spell slots as you had before you wildshaped, except you've achieved everything that the wildshape let you achieve. In other words, when your wildshape is over, you go right back to being every bit as capable a spellcaster as you were, all it cost you was a use of wildshape.
How much value you get out of that depends on what you use wildshape for; a Circle of the Moon druid may be able to use wildshape for an entire combat, without expending any other resources, whereas another caster might have had to cast at least some spells to achieve the same thing (or to compete in other ways).
To scout or infiltrate, or to bypass obstacles etc. another caster will usually want to cast some spells to help themselves, but the Druid just needs to spend one use of wildshape. There's no need to cast spider climb when you can simply become a spider, no need to cast fly when you can become an actual fly etc. And all it takes is a short rest to get wildshape back again.
Sounds like you or your DMs don’t use natural hazards. Crawling around as a spider is nice, but what about things that eat spiders. People also typically don’t like spiders and try to kill them on sight. Bypassing obstacles is fine. What about the rest of the party? What kind of obstacles are you or your DM designing. You can’t fly until 8th level and spells allow every caster to fly by then. If you are arguing that Wildshape is an unfair resource we have to get into the whole argument about how spell slots are an unfair resource compared to non casters. Let’s not have that argument here. Wildshaping for an entire combat means you can’t cast spells for an entire combat. You are giving up something to be able to Wildshape.
It's not contradictory; simply having the Spellcasting feature with full-caster slot progression makes every Druid a capable mage in theory (see Agilemind's post about why it's different in practice). You could ignore your sub-class features entirely and with the right mix of spells (which you can change on long rest) can still be plenty useful to the party. That sub-classes can boost this further doesn't change that the baseline casting ability is already pretty good.
I think the point is that Moon Druid gains features that are entirely separate from the spellcasting, and no matter how much they use these they still have that same baseline spellcasting ability on top, so even if you burn your combat wildshapes, you still have a full complement of spell slots to fall back to. Meanwhile a Druid focusing on being a nature mage will have already spent some of these, so in that respect a Moon Druid is the "better" nature mage because they may not have spent any of their spellcasting resources by the time they finally need to.
Personally I don't want to see Moon Druid become weak; I like the idea of a Druid who can hold their own on the front-line if that's what they want to do (or what their party needs), at least in terms of dishing out some damage and taking a fair bit in return (Barbarians and Fighters should still have the edge overall). But for that to remain strong throughout every tier of play it needs to come at an additional cost so it remains balanced.
I'm also an advocate of Druids getting a bit of built-in nature mage potential as an alternative to wild-shaping, and this would also help (because it's something a wildshaping Moon Druid won't be using). This shouldn't necessarily make them more powerful as such, just help with resource use, make it easier to juggle the concentration heavy Primal list etc.
This is false because the number one thing that druids can’t do while in Wild Shape, until much later in the game, is cast spells. Even if they can still concentrate on a spell if they lose concentration they would have to drop their Wild shape form to cast another spell. Also let’s be honest. At high levels of play the beast they can turn into don’t give them the greatest melee damage. They get to become massive meat shields not damage dealers. At level 20 I will say they are Gods because they have infinite hp, but still don’t have great damage for that level of play.
1) But a land Mountain Druid gets lightning bolt. Also fireball and lighting bolt are over tuned for there level. The developers have stated this. They did it because they are iconic spells. So you shouldn’t be comparing other spells to those two because all other spells will short. Ice knife doesn’t scale well so it’s pointless to upcast, but it is definitely better than a 1-4 cantrip and the second part hits multiple creatures. Also if we are including concentration damaging spells Flaming Sphere, Heat Metal, Moonbeam, Insect Plague, Maelstrom, and some pretty strong high level stuff.
2) Primal Savagery is a 1d10 but it’s a melee spell. Poison spray is a d12 but it’s poison damage and short range. Produce flame does the same damage as Ray of Frost and acts as the light spell. Frostbite has a pretty good rider for a d6 damage cantrip.
3) Love how you ignored the fact that you could cast other spells I named. I even said that it was a play style choice. You don’t have to choose it. Also thank you. I’m having another argument with people saying the moon Druid needs a nerf because it can do it all, but clearly that wasn’t your experience. Even though I would think most Moon Druid players wouldn’t MC at 11 since at 10 they can drop a concentration spell and become an Elemental. At 11th you get your 6th level spell which is great for conjure elemental if you know ahead of time a battle is likely. That gives you an invisible stalker. Then you can support that from range with spells or transform into an elemental yourself. Earth is great for concentration checks +5 con. If you happen to be on unworked earth earth glide is OP because you can move into the ground at the end of your turn. If you don’t want to conjure an invisible stalker 6th level spells include sunbeam, and wall of thorns.
1) One specific version of land druid gets lightning bolt and everything else they get is worthless. I'd hardly call that proof that druid as a nature mage is a totally functional playstyle in 5e. Sunbeam is a 6th level concentration spell that does the same damage in a worse Area of Effect than Lightning Bolt or Fireball - two non-concentration 3rd level spells. Remember that except for Land, we don't get any free preparations of spells which means at level 11 we have 16 spells we can prepare assuming we've maxed out our WIS (which given that concentration is so important we might not have). Which makes it really hard to feel powerful when you need at minimum 3 spells prepared at each spell level (i.e. 18 spells prepared) because all of our spells are situational so only 1/2 (or fewer) will be useful in any given situation - again pulling us back to main-ing as a healer because healing are our only spells that will always be useful. It's the catch-22 of druid, they have the one of the largest spell lists and by far the most diverse spell-list but if you play it that means nothing because you never have enough spell preparations to actually explore that list I've been playing my druid for >2 years and at least 75% of the spell list I have never even prepared because those spells are too niche or too weak or both. This is your spell load out as a druid (any druid): 1st level - Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Absorb Elements, Goodberry - if you got to rest-cast Goodberry the night before then swap in Speak with Animals instead 2nd level - Moonbeam, Spike Growth, choose one from: Hold Person, Heat Metal, Flaming Sphere, Wither and Bloom 3rd level - Conjure Animals (or Summon Fey if banned), Erupting Earth choose one from: Aura of Vitality, Revivify, Tidal Wave, Water Breathing 4th level - Polymorph, Summon Elemental or Conjure Woodland Beings, + Fire Shield (if Moon), otherwise Wall of Fire or Ice Storm 5th level - Cone of Cold, Mass Cure Wounds, + Malestrom (most of the time) or Transmute Rock (if in a cave/dungeon or stone city) or Wrath of Nature (if in a forest) 6th level - Heal, Transport via Plants, Wind Walk (if you know you aren't travelling then Sunbeam of Wall of Thorns) 7th level - Fire Storm, Draconic Transformation 8th level - Sunburst, Animal Shapes (or don't prepare any of them b/c they are all super niche and prepare more 6th level spells instead b/c they tend to be better than these.) 9th level - Shapechange
2) Exactly? Frostbite is slightly higher damage but much more likely to be resisted than Vicious Mockery with the same rider, Produce Flame does an even more resisted damage type than Ray of Frost and doesn't get a rider, Primal Savagery forces your d8 hit die no-metal-armour-wearing druid into melee. So thank you for proving my point there. Cheers!
3) Conjure Elemental turns on the party if you lose concentration and requires a full minute of foresight to cast. Earth Elemental has a massive HP pool and good resistances, so Earth Glide is a silly strategy most of the time b/c if you in elemental form, you want the enemies to hit you because tanking those hits is the most powerful aspect of elemental forms. And since you can't cast spells while WSed you can dump your lower spellslots into healing yourself making you even more tanky which even more incentivizes you to stand there and get hit, TBH the best part of Earth Elemental isn't Earth Gliding away, it's the high STR and high hit points which means you can grabble the baddies and force them to attack you rather than your friends or drag them into your ally's AoE damage effect.
This is false because the number one thing that druids can’t do while in Wild Shape, until much later in the game, is cast spells.
It's not false because that's precisely the point; when you're done with wildshape you still have just as many spell slots as you had before you wildshaped, except you've achieved everything that the wildshape let you achieve. In other words, when your wildshape is over, you go right back to being every bit as capable a spellcaster as you were, all it cost you was a use of wildshape.
How much value you get out of that depends on what you use wildshape for; a Circle of the Moon druid may be able to use wildshape for an entire combat, without expending any other resources, whereas another caster might have had to cast at least some spells to achieve the same thing (or to compete in other ways).
To scout or infiltrate, or to bypass obstacles etc. another caster will usually want to cast some spells to help themselves, but the Druid just needs to spend one use of wildshape. There's no need to cast spider climb when you can simply become a spider, no need to cast fly when you can become an actual fly etc. And all it takes is a short rest to get wildshape back again.
Sounds like you or your DMs don’t use natural hazards. Crawling around as a spider is nice, but what about things that eat spiders. People also typically don’t like spiders and try to kill them on sight. Bypassing obstacles is fine. What about the rest of the party? What kind of obstacles are you or your DM designing. You can’t fly until 8th level and spells allow every caster to fly by then. If you are arguing that Wildshape is an unfair resource we have to get into the whole argument about how spell slots are an unfair resource compared to non casters. Let’s not have that argument here. Wildshaping for an entire combat means you can’t cast spells for an entire combat. You are giving up something to be able to Wildshape.
There is so much combat focus on here is kinda silly. Combat is 1/3 of the game, and not always the most interesting, sorry. All of the detail is nice, but he's got/she's got is just boring after a while. You don't need to do as much or more damage as the other characters if you use spells/wildshape in interesting ways throughout the game/combats. Each situation is different, and all of this is conjectural based on either a void or specific situations everyone is detailing ad infinitum.
Wildshape is a compromise in combat, but a resource, and something to give solutions to a myriad of problems outside combat, in the other 2/3 of the game. A druid is plenty strong, and we just don't have to get into which caster is stronger, but I do get the feeling that most of the arguments about wildshape in combat just totally miss the fact that it's firstly a choice, (an option for when you need/want it), and that a druid's spells are another choice/option, but a Druid can also choose to go into melee or become a support. It all depends on your group, the situation, and what you want out of it.
It's not contradictory; simply having the Spellcasting feature with full-caster slot progression makes every Druid a capable mage in theory (see Agilemind's post about why it's different in practice). You could ignore your sub-class features entirely and with the right mix of spells (which you can change on long rest) can still be plenty useful to the party. That sub-classes can boost this further doesn't change that the baseline casting ability is already pretty good.
I think the point is that Moon Druid gains features that are entirely separate from the spellcasting, and no matter how much they use these they still have that same baseline spellcasting ability on top, so even if you burn your combat wildshapes, you still have a full complement of spell slots to fall back to. Meanwhile a Druid focusing on being a nature mage will have already spent some of these, so in that respect a Moon Druid is the "better" nature mage because they may not have spent any of their spellcasting resources by the time they finally need to.
Personally I don't want to see Moon Druid become weak; I like the idea of a Druid who can hold their own on the front-line if that's what they want to do (or what their party needs), at least in terms of dishing out some damage and taking a fair bit in return (Barbarians and Fighters should still have the edge overall). But for that to remain strong throughout every tier of play it needs to come at an additional cost so it remains balanced.
I'm also an advocate of Druids getting a bit of built-in nature mage potential as an alternative to wild-shaping, and this would also help (because it's something a wildshaping Moon Druid won't be using). This shouldn't necessarily make them more powerful as such, just help with resource use, make it easier to juggle the concentration heavy Primal list etc.
This is false because the number one thing that druids can’t do while in Wild Shape, until much later in the game, is cast spells. Even if they can still concentrate on a spell if they lose concentration they would have to drop their Wild shape form to cast another spell. Also let’s be honest. At high levels of play the beast they can turn into don’t give them the greatest melee damage. They get to become massive meat shields not damage dealers. At level 20 I will say they are Gods because they have infinite hp, but still don’t have great damage for that level of play.
1) But a land Mountain Druid gets lightning bolt. Also fireball and lighting bolt are over tuned for there level. The developers have stated this. They did it because they are iconic spells. So you shouldn’t be comparing other spells to those two because all other spells will short. Ice knife doesn’t scale well so it’s pointless to upcast, but it is definitely better than a 1-4 cantrip and the second part hits multiple creatures. Also if we are including concentration damaging spells Flaming Sphere, Heat Metal, Moonbeam, Insect Plague, Maelstrom, and some pretty strong high level stuff.
2) Primal Savagery is a 1d10 but it’s a melee spell. Poison spray is a d12 but it’s poison damage and short range. Produce flame does the same damage as Ray of Frost and acts as the light spell. Frostbite has a pretty good rider for a d6 damage cantrip.
3) Love how you ignored the fact that you could cast other spells I named. I even said that it was a play style choice. You don’t have to choose it. Also thank you. I’m having another argument with people saying the moon Druid needs a nerf because it can do it all, but clearly that wasn’t your experience. Even though I would think most Moon Druid players wouldn’t MC at 11 since at 10 they can drop a concentration spell and become an Elemental. At 11th you get your 6th level spell which is great for conjure elemental if you know ahead of time a battle is likely. That gives you an invisible stalker. Then you can support that from range with spells or transform into an elemental yourself. Earth is great for concentration checks +5 con. If you happen to be on unworked earth earth glide is OP because you can move into the ground at the end of your turn. If you don’t want to conjure an invisible stalker 6th level spells include sunbeam, and wall of thorns.
1) One specific version of land druid gets lightning bolt and everything else they get is worthless. I'd hardly call that proof that druid as a nature mage is a totally functional playstyle in 5e. Sunbeam is a 6th level concentration spell that does the same damage in a worse Area of Effect than Lightning Bolt or Fireball - two non-concentration 3rd level spells. Remember that except for Land, we don't get any free preparations of spells which means at level 11 we have 16 spells we can prepare assuming we've maxed out our WIS (which given that concentration is so important we might not have). Which makes it really hard to feel powerful when you need at minimum 3 spells prepared at each spell level (i.e. 18 spells prepared) because all of our spells are situational so only 1/2 (or fewer) will be useful in any given situation - again pulling us back to main-ing as a healer because healing are our only spells that will always be useful. It's the catch-22 of druid, they have the one of the largest spell lists and by far the most diverse spell-list but if you play it that means nothing because you never have enough spell preparations to actually explore that list I've been playing my druid for >2 years and at least 75% of the spell list I have never even prepared because those spells are too niche or too weak or both. This is your spell load out as a druid (any druid): 1st level - Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Absorb Elements, Goodberry - if you got to rest-cast Goodberry the night before then swap in Speak with Animals instead 2nd level - Moonbeam, Spike Growth, choose one from: Hold Person, Heat Metal, Flaming Sphere, Wither and Bloom 3rd level - Conjure Animals (or Summon Fey if banned), Erupting Earth choose one from: Aura of Vitality, Revivify, Tidal Wave, Water Breathing 4th level - Polymorph, Summon Elemental or Conjure Woodland Beings, + Fire Shield (if Moon), otherwise Wall of Fire or Ice Storm 5th level - Cone of Cold, Mass Cure Wounds, + Malestrom (most of the time) or Transmute Rock (if in a cave/dungeon or stone city) or Wrath of Nature (if in a forest) 6th level - Heal, Transport via Plants, Wind Walk (if you know you aren't travelling then Sunbeam of Wall of Thorns) 7th level - Fire Storm, Draconic Transformation 8th level - Sunburst, Animal Shapes (or don't prepare any of them b/c they are all super niche and prepare more 6th level spells instead b/c they tend to be better than these.) 9th level - Shapechange
2) Exactly? Frostbite is slightly higher damage but much more likely to be resisted than Vicious Mockery with the same rider, Produce Flame does an even more resisted damage type than Ray of Frost and doesn't get a rider, Primal Savagery forces your d8 hit die no-metal-armour-wearing druid into melee. So thank you for proving my point there. Cheers!
3) Conjure Elemental turns on the party if you lose concentration and requires a full minute of foresight to cast. Earth Elemental has a massive HP pool and good resistances, so Earth Glide is a silly strategy most of the time b/c if you in elemental form, you want the enemies to hit you because tanking those hits is the most powerful aspect of elemental forms. And since you can't cast spells while WSed you can dump your lower spellslots into healing yourself making you even more tanky which even more incentivizes you to stand there and get hit, TBH the best part of Earth Elemental isn't Earth Gliding away, it's the high STR and high hit points which means you can grabble the baddies and force them to attack you rather than your friends or drag them into your ally's AoE damage effect.
1) Star Druid also gets guiding bolt and I named a bunch of good attack spells other than lightning bolt. Sunbeam is concentration so you can use it every turn. So if a fight last 3 rounds it’s like throwing three fireballs with only one spell slot expended if the fight last longer even better. Also it’s awesome because you could become an earth elemental after casting this and earth glide while popping up and blasting enemies with it. Notice I have a thing for Earth glide. Also you have two many summon spells prepared for my liking. Maybe your group runs enough combats per day to use all those, but mine does not.
2) By your standards frostbite does much better damage beyond level 5 than vicious mockery. Don’t move the goal post now. Produce Flame acts as a light source as it’s special thing and ray of frost rider isn’t that great. It can be useful but don’t act like it’s great. Frostbite rider is the superior cold damage rider. Primal savagery is what you use when you are already in melee and since you are moon Druid you Wildshape into and owl or giant owl with flyby to get out of melee or into an earth elemental and tank melee.
3) Yes it will turn on your party, but don’t lose concentration by not tanking damage and earth gliding out of danger. If you don’t have time just use one of the new summons. Far more boring but they suffice and only take an action. As for your way of using an earth elemental it’s fine, but we were arguing how to use it with Spells. Again sunbeam is a good spell for earth and air elementals to concentrate on. Air is probably better for sunbeam. Investiture of fire might be good on an earth elemental that likes to grapple like you. Flaming sphere and fire elemental is a good combo as well. Guardian of Nature plus any Wild shape is always nice. Wall of fire turn into a fire element and stay in the wall. And my favorite wall of stone earth elemental earth glide.
Wildshaping for an entire combat means you can’t cast spells for an entire combat. You are giving up something to be able to Wildshape.
No, what it means is that you're not spending those other resources when you're using wildshape instead. I'm not sure how else to phrase this so that you can understand that point? And wildshape is not just usable in combat; for both Moon and non-Moon druids it's main use will often be out of combat, where it's also saving you spell slots.
Every single time wildshape lets you achieve something that would have otherwise cost a spell slot, it has saved you a spell-slot. And I have not once said wildshape is an "unfair resource", that's not the argument at all. I'm perfectly happy for wildshape to be a Druid feature, but it needs to be acknowledged that it gives access to a bunch of different capabilities that would normally require spells; this should not be a controversial statement, and it's certainly not a false one (so kindly stop calling accusing everyone that disagrees with you of being liars).
Besides which, the whole point is that when Circle of the Moon gets better at wildshaping for free it means they're gaining something on top of a feature that already effectively makes them more efficient spellcasters, which is where the balance issues creep in, because they're not supposed to be better spellcasters, they're supposed to be better wildshapers, which in turns diminishes casting focused druids. Literally the entire point is to highlight why there is a balance issue around how to implement Circle of the Moon features on top of whatever the updated Wildshape looks like.
But the broader issue is that not using wildshape should be similarly valuable to using it; currently that's only the case for specific sub-classes, and not necessarily the case when comparing to Moon Druid. While in the UA, find familiar is a decent option (but really just stealing Wizard's thing), healing blossom is pretty rubbish, so the baseline "nature mage" isn't really covered.
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Round and round we go. I already acknowledge that Starry druid is the one druid that does work as a "nature" mage because they are the one that actually gets multiple features that enhance their spellcasting - it's not just guiding bolt, starry form has options to enhance you offence, healing, or concentration, the Guidance and Augury enhances your utility casting, Woe can improve you chances to get saving throw spells to stick.
At level 11, you get 1x 6th level spell per day, and 3x 3rd level slots per day making Sunbeam and 3x Fireballs comparable in cost, arguably the fireballs are cheaper b/c 3rd level spells can be regenerated by various features but a 6th level slot cannot. And Fireball covers a bigger area too. But it is rather beside the point since you're usually using that slot for Transport via Plants since it is the best group teleportation spell in the game - cause that's the one thing that druids are the best at.. their actual niche.. the one you don't realize until you've played them a bit... Druids are the party bus, they get the party from point A to point B in the most efficient manner. It's why that is the only use of WS that is preserved in One D&D.
Conjure Animals to summon Giant Owls to fly the party wherever they need to go as quickly as possible, or a higher levels Giant Eagles then a highest levels Windwalk lets you all fly there as clouds. If time isn't pressing WS into a Large creature an ferry the party one by one. If you need to get them there quietly you've got Pass without Trace or at higher levels Animal Shapes to make everyone as inconspicuous as you. Druidcraft let's you predict the weather so you know whether it is safe to travel, and when you need to stop and find shelter from a storm and at 15th level you can simply change the weather to what suits. Speak with Animals let's you easily stop for directions anywhere. Goodberry and Purify Food and Drink ensure the party stay will nourished along the journey. Transport via Plants and Plane Shift let you reliably bus the party great distances and even planes, while Water walk, Warding Wind, Antilife Shell and Freedom of Movement enable you to safely navigate all kinds of hostile terrain.
Yes, the bus and the healer the two most heroic roles for the all powerful do-everything spellcaster who needs to be nerfed hard so the poor little Barbarian who only gets to do 50 damage per round using only a single resource doesn't feel overshadowed.
Besides which, the whole point is that when Circle of the Moon gets better at wildshaping for free it means they're gaining something on top of a feature that already effectively makes them more efficient spellcasters, which is where the balance issues creep in, because they're not supposed to be better spellcasters, they're supposed to be better wildshapers, which in turns diminishes casting focused druids. Literally the entire point is to highlight why there is a balance issue around how to implement Circle of the Moon features on top of whatever the updated Wildshape looks like.
It really doesn't. Yes it absolutely saves you spellslots, but mostly that just increases the amount of Goodberries you are carrying around with you. Because it is almost impossible to run out of spellslots as a druid because every spell worth casting is concentration.
For one thing it’s an attack spell instead of a saving throw, so it’s more likely to get through most of the time. Not to mention that frostbite forces a Con save, which is typically often the easiest for monsters to succeed at.
For another thing, ray of frost does slightly more damage.
Finally I’ll take the speed reduction rider over the disadvantage to an attack roll rider all day long. At least vicious mockery works against all attack types, but frostbite only works against weapon attacks, so its rider is useless against a spellcaster. And once the punchy monsters start getting Multiattack frostbite’s returns start diminishing reeaaallll effing fast. But s solid speed reduction from ray of frost is always useful. Control is control after all. If I can slow a punchy monster down enough so they can’t get to anyone, that completely nullifies all of its attacks for a round. And I cannot tell you how many times that speed reduction has prevented an enemy from escaping, nor how many times I didn’t take ray of frost and wished I had.
The only real problem with Ray of frost is the range, if it were 90 feet it would almost be an auto-include.
Making the primary shifter a ranger subclass -- wild shape pretty much turns a druid into a nature-themed melee fighter who's also really good at scouting, and that's pretty much the core concept of a ranger.
We know this ain't happening. There are way too many people who think of Aragon or Drizzt as archetypal Rangers for this to make it past UA.
It would be more likely if we got a class devoted to shape shifting completely separate from any previous 5e class.
For one thing it’s an attack spell instead of a saving throw, so it’s more likely to get through most of the time. Not to mention that frostbite forces a Con save, which is typically often the easiest for monsters to succeed at.
For another thing, ray of frost does slightly more damage.
Finally I’ll take the speed reduction rider over the disadvantage to an attack roll rider all day long. At least vicious mockery works against all attack types, but frostbite only works against weapon attacks, so its rider is useless against a spellcaster. And once the punchy monsters start getting Multiattack frostbite’s returns start diminishing reeaaallll effing fast. But s solid speed reduction from ray of frost is always useful. Control is control after all. If I can slow a punchy monster down enough so they can’t get to anyone, that completely nullifies all of its attacks for a round. And I cannot tell you how many times that speed reduction has prevented an enemy from escaping, nor how many times I didn’t take ray of frost and wished I had.
The only real problem with Ray of frost is the range, if it were 90 feet it would almost be an auto-include.
frostbite does have one specific niche in which it's better than ray of frost -- when a caster is in melee range of an enemy and wants to mess with a potential opportunity attack before they skedaddle
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Making the primary shifter a ranger subclass -- wild shape pretty much turns a druid into a nature-themed melee fighter who's also really good at scouting, and that's pretty much the core concept of a ranger.
We know this ain't happening. There are way too many people who think of Aragon or Drizzt as archetypal Rangers for this to make it past UA.
It's certainly not something that should be a class feature, but there are plenty of oddball subclasses. I mean, there's already a shifter-ish barbarian (which is also an option; berserkers as werebears has some history).
For one thing it’s an attack spell instead of a saving throw, so it’s more likely to get through most of the time. Not to mention that frostbite forces a Con save, which is typically often the easiest for monsters to succeed at.
For another thing, ray of frost does slightly more damage.
Finally I’ll take the speed reduction rider over the disadvantage to an attack roll rider all day long. At least vicious mockery works against all attack types, but frostbite only works against weapon attacks, so its rider is useless against a spellcaster. And once the punchy monsters start getting Multiattack frostbite’s returns start diminishing reeaaallll effing fast. But s solid speed reduction from ray of frost is always useful. Control is control after all. If I can slow a punchy monster down enough so they can’t get to anyone, that completely nullifies all of its attacks for a round. And I cannot tell you how many times that speed reduction has prevented an enemy from escaping, nor how many times I didn’t take ray of frost and wished I had.
The only real problem with Ray of frost is the range, if it were 90 feet it would almost be an auto-include.
frostbite does have one specific niche in which it's better than ray of frost -- when a caster is in melee range of an enemy and wants to mess with a potential opportunity attack before they skedaddle
True, but if that’s what one is worried about, shocking grasp does it better and does more damage. Basically, frostbite is just a worse version of 3 different spells all crammed together.
You know, there used to be a clean solution for when you wanted casters to have access to a certain option but not force them to have it. It was called... Spells.
If only there was already a spell for turning yourself into an animal. Wait, there is? But it can target others! Well, what if it was split up into Wild Shape (Primal) and Baleful Polymorph (Arcane)?
Turning Wildshape into a spell is a bad idea. A) it allows Druid subclasses with combat suitable Wildshapes to get arguably too many Wildshapes; and B) Polymorph and Shapechange are concentration spells. Concentration spells are the maize and beans (to use a non-European metaphor) of Druid spellcasting.
It's not penalizing, it's balancing, you can't have a character that does everything and Moon Druid very much had that issue. The cost isn't for transforming into animals via wild shape, the cost is for specializing into shape shifting with wild shape. If you want wild shape to be a viable main tactic then you shouldn't also have full spellcaster progression too. Full spellcaster progression is still the most powerful thing in the game for a class to have.
I think this is a good argument for more of Moon Druid's buffs to wildshape to be fuelled by spell slots; this could allow it to scale up to still be strong at higher levels, but at the cost of sacrificing your spellcasting to do so.
If we assume they'll revert wildshape to be a but more like 5e but probably still template based, i.e- give the templates their own hit-points based on size so you can once again be knocked out of Tiny form easily, but more combat appropriate forms can give you a bit of extra durability.
The issue for Moon Druid will be how to scale up that durability, because if they just do for free as a sub-class feature we'll be right back to the same problems as before. However, if their basic feature is wildshaping as a bonus action (already a big boost), then they could also add durability by spending a spell slot when you transform in order to add more hit-points to the new form. When they get elemental form it might add a modest boost of elemental damage, increased by any spell slot you spend to transform, later on they may gain the ability to spend slots while transformed to heal (to keep the form going longer)?
The idea being that a viable combat beast Moon Druid might be more equivalent to a half caster in practice, due to the slots they'll be spending to make the form strong enough to compete as a front-liner?
This makes good sense. Trading some spell slots for combat viability is good for the balance meta. It's also a good use for spell slots that the Moon Druid is less likely to use anyway than most other Druid subclasses.
Top of the list should be effects that roughly replicate Barkskin and Stoneskin, which have very limited use for a Moon Druid due to being in melee range much of the time and both such spells using concentration. I could also see an effect fueled by spell slot replicating the "Wall of" spells that do damage to creatures doing melee attacks on the Moon Druid. "Flame skin" or "Thorn skin", etc.
It's not penalizing, it's balancing, you can't have a character that does everything and Moon Druid very much had that issue. The cost isn't for transforming into animals via wild shape, the cost is for specializing into shape shifting with wild shape. If you want wild shape to be a viable main tactic then you shouldn't also have full spellcaster progression too. Full spellcaster progression is still the most powerful thing in the game for a class to have.
I think this is a good argument for more of Moon Druid's buffs to wildshape to be fuelled by spell slots; this could allow it to scale up to still be strong at higher levels, but at the cost of sacrificing your spellcasting to do so.
If we assume they'll revert wildshape to be a but more like 5e but probably still template based, i.e- give the templates their own hit-points based on size so you can once again be knocked out of Tiny form easily, but more combat appropriate forms can give you a bit of extra durability.
The issue for Moon Druid will be how to scale up that durability, because if they just do for free as a sub-class feature we'll be right back to the same problems as before. However, if their basic feature is wildshaping as a bonus action (already a big boost), then they could also add durability by spending a spell slot when you transform in order to add more hit-points to the new form. When they get elemental form it might add a modest boost of elemental damage, increased by any spell slot you spend to transform, later on they may gain the ability to spend slots while transformed to heal (to keep the form going longer)?
The idea being that a viable combat beast Moon Druid might be more equivalent to a half caster in practice, due to the slots they'll be spending to make the form strong enough to compete as a front-liner?
This makes good sense. Trading some spell slots for combat viability is good for the balance meta. It's also a good use for spell slots that the Moon Druid is less likely to use anyway than most other Druid subclasses.
Top of the list should be effects that roughly replicate Barkskin and Stoneskin, which have very limited use for a Moon Druid due to being in melee range much of the time and both such spells using concentration. I could also see an effect fueled by spell slot replicating the "Wall of" spells that do damage to creatures doing melee attacks on the Moon Druid. "Flame skin" or "Thorn skin", etc.
FFS... Moon Druid already gets all of these suggestions with their current WS mechanics, and they get actually interesting forms that feel fundamentally different from each other at the same time.
The current "problem" with 5e moon druid (aside from level 2-4 which is completely busted b/c the CR threshold should be 1/2 rather than 1) is that the ONLY thing they are good at in WS in combat is tanking via massive hp pools. If we take that away from WS as it seems many people want, we NEED to give Moon druid something else to make up for it - i.e. let them keep full spellcasting while in WS, or give them a big increase in damage while in WS.
You know, there used to be a clean solution for when you wanted casters to have access to a certain option but not force them to have it. It was called... Spells.
If only there was already a spell for turning yourself into an animal. Wait, there is? But it can target others! Well, what if it was split up into Wild Shape (Primal) and Baleful Polymorph (Arcane)?
Turning Wildshape into a spell is a bad idea. A) it allows Druid subclasses with combat suitable Wildshapes to get arguably too many Wildshapes; and B) Polymorph and Shapechange are concentration spells. Concentration spells are the maize and beans (to use a non-European metaphor) of Druid spellcasting.
I don't see why either of these problems are, uh, problems. I'm assuming here that the Wild Shape class feature would go away, and the new Wild Shape spell would be tuned appropriately. A) You could make Moon unique by allowing them to burn more spell slots or higher level spell slots to enhance their Wild Shape spell, rather than just boosting it for free. Current Moon already has an ability to burn slots to heal while using Wild Shape so this isn't a new idea. Maybe Moon is the only one who can upcast Wild Shape -- wouldn't that be elegant! Put the upcast rule for the spell in the subclass instead of in the spell description. B) Wild Shape doesn't have to be though. And frankly I don't see why it should be. If you really want the spell to be breakable via pain, you could add specific text to it similar to how Charm Person can break.
Top of the list should be effects that roughly replicate Barkskin and Stoneskin, which have very limited use for a Moon Druid due to being in melee range much of the time and both such spells using concentration. I could also see an effect fueled by spell slot replicating the "Wall of" spells that do damage to creatures doing melee attacks on the Moon Druid. "Flame skin" or "Thorn skin", etc.
FFS... Moon Druid already gets all of these suggestions with their current WS mechanics, and they get actually interesting forms that feel fundamentally different from each other at the same time.
The current "problem" with 5e moon druid (aside from level 2-4 which is completely busted b/c the CR threshold should be 1/2 rather than 1) is that the ONLY thing they are good at in WS in combat is tanking via massive hp pools. If we take that away from WS as it seems many people want, we NEED to give Moon druid something else to make up for it - i.e. let them keep full spellcasting while in WS, or give them a big increase in damage while in WS.
No, the 5e Wildshape does not interact well with relying on concentration spells for AC boosts or resistance to X spells. This is why Mage Armor is better than Barkskin even though the latter guarantees a higher AC: Mage Armor is not a concertration spell and lasts 8 hours. Aside from the material cost of Stoneskin, it's main problem for current M.Druids is same issue with Barkskin: concentration. The point of creating a separate mechanic for conversion of spell slots to AC or "Wall of" boosts is to make melee Moon Druid more viable at Tier 2 and above by both freeing concentration up for offensive spells without sacrificing defense ( or relying on a Wizard ally to cast AC boosts for you).
Lol. We seem to be talking past each other a bit. I already agree with you on those points, Choir.
I would, however, like to keep the 5e Elemental Wildshapes, though, just allow it to scale up based on M.Druid level. Abilities like Earthglide, capsizing boats, or auto-set-aflame are both flavorful and useful. Just doing elemental damage is very boring by comparison.
The current "problem" with 5e moon druid (aside from level 2-4 which is completely busted b/c the CR threshold should be 1/2 rather than 1) is that the ONLY thing they are good at in WS in combat is tanking via massive hp pools. If we take that away from WS as it seems many people want, we NEED to give Moon druid something else to make up for it - i.e. let them keep full spellcasting while in WS, or give them a big increase in damage while in WS.
Is taking away tanking what many people want? I've only ever raised it previously to highlight how broken the unlimited wildshape uses are, I think it's fine up until that point, though it can give access to quite a lot of "free" hit-points. My preference though would be for Moon Druid to get wildshapes that are better all-rounders in combat (i.e- not quite as tanky, but can hold their own on damage at all tiers), but then be able to spend extra resources to boost them further in either damage, durability or utility as desired.
So while for a non-Moon Druid a combat wildshape is a very niche thing (you'd do it to get a particular ability a new form has, or as a panic button for some hit-points if you're near death), for a Moon Druid a combat wildshape should always be a moderately good, but not too powerful (not going to step on a martial's toes). However then when you start burning spell slots to boost it, it should then be possible to compete, add damage resistances/types (elemental effects) etc. to become like a resource bound melee fighter.
I think this bolstering makes sense to be part of the sub-class feature but spending spell slots, rather than just giving them more access to spellcasting while wildshaped, otherwise what is the Moon Druid's weakness if they can become a kind of martial that still has full-casting? Doubling down on combat forms should be just that, i.e- your spellcasting is repurposed to support it, rather than being something you just have on top anyway.
Balancing the wildshapes is one of the big benefits of the template idea, even if Wizards massively screwed it up by making them all terrible; templates that scale properly from 1st- to 20th-level could be a good thing, we just need to get some of the utility and durability back, and have them not be objectively worse in every way than remaining as you were. But with actually good template forms it should make it a lot easier to balance the capabilities and progression, with Moon Druid getting some boosts for free, and others at whatever cost they're willing to pay.
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Utilizing modular templates makes sense for Moon Druids. I just don't think it's worth it for non-Moon Druids as it adds layers of complication (math and multiple choices) to something that, for most Druids, plays a function essentially similar to that of "Jack of All Trades" for the Bard class.
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Sounds like you or your DMs don’t use natural hazards. Crawling around as a spider is nice, but what about things that eat spiders. People also typically don’t like spiders and try to kill them on sight. Bypassing obstacles is fine. What about the rest of the party? What kind of obstacles are you or your DM designing. You can’t fly until 8th level and spells allow every caster to fly by then. If you are arguing that Wildshape is an unfair resource we have to get into the whole argument about how spell slots are an unfair resource compared to non casters. Let’s not have that argument here. Wildshaping for an entire combat means you can’t cast spells for an entire combat. You are giving up something to be able to Wildshape.
1) One specific version of land druid gets lightning bolt and everything else they get is worthless. I'd hardly call that proof that druid as a nature mage is a totally functional playstyle in 5e. Sunbeam is a 6th level concentration spell that does the same damage in a worse Area of Effect than Lightning Bolt or Fireball - two non-concentration 3rd level spells. Remember that except for Land, we don't get any free preparations of spells which means at level 11 we have 16 spells we can prepare assuming we've maxed out our WIS (which given that concentration is so important we might not have). Which makes it really hard to feel powerful when you need at minimum 3 spells prepared at each spell level (i.e. 18 spells prepared) because all of our spells are situational so only 1/2 (or fewer) will be useful in any given situation - again pulling us back to main-ing as a healer because healing are our only spells that will always be useful. It's the catch-22 of druid, they have the one of the largest spell lists and by far the most diverse spell-list but if you play it that means nothing because you never have enough spell preparations to actually explore that list I've been playing my druid for >2 years and at least 75% of the spell list I have never even prepared because those spells are too niche or too weak or both. This is your spell load out as a druid (any druid):
1st level - Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Absorb Elements, Goodberry - if you got to rest-cast Goodberry the night before then swap in Speak with Animals instead
2nd level - Moonbeam, Spike Growth, choose one from: Hold Person, Heat Metal, Flaming Sphere, Wither and Bloom
3rd level - Conjure Animals (or Summon Fey if banned), Erupting Earth choose one from: Aura of Vitality, Revivify, Tidal Wave, Water Breathing
4th level - Polymorph, Summon Elemental or Conjure Woodland Beings, + Fire Shield (if Moon), otherwise Wall of Fire or Ice Storm
5th level - Cone of Cold, Mass Cure Wounds, + Malestrom (most of the time) or Transmute Rock (if in a cave/dungeon or stone city) or Wrath of Nature (if in a forest)
6th level - Heal, Transport via Plants, Wind Walk (if you know you aren't travelling then Sunbeam of Wall of Thorns)
7th level - Fire Storm, Draconic Transformation
8th level - Sunburst, Animal Shapes (or don't prepare any of them b/c they are all super niche and prepare more 6th level spells instead b/c they tend to be better than these.)
9th level - Shapechange
2) Exactly? Frostbite is slightly higher damage but much more likely to be resisted than Vicious Mockery with the same rider, Produce Flame does an even more resisted damage type than Ray of Frost and doesn't get a rider, Primal Savagery forces your d8 hit die no-metal-armour-wearing druid into melee. So thank you for proving my point there. Cheers!
3) Conjure Elemental turns on the party if you lose concentration and requires a full minute of foresight to cast. Earth Elemental has a massive HP pool and good resistances, so Earth Glide is a silly strategy most of the time b/c if you in elemental form, you want the enemies to hit you because tanking those hits is the most powerful aspect of elemental forms. And since you can't cast spells while WSed you can dump your lower spellslots into healing yourself making you even more tanky which even more incentivizes you to stand there and get hit, TBH the best part of Earth Elemental isn't Earth Gliding away, it's the high STR and high hit points which means you can grabble the baddies and force them to attack you rather than your friends or drag them into your ally's AoE damage effect.
There is so much combat focus on here is kinda silly. Combat is 1/3 of the game, and not always the most interesting, sorry. All of the detail is nice, but he's got/she's got is just boring after a while. You don't need to do as much or more damage as the other characters if you use spells/wildshape in interesting ways throughout the game/combats. Each situation is different, and all of this is conjectural based on either a void or specific situations everyone is detailing ad infinitum.
Wildshape is a compromise in combat, but a resource, and something to give solutions to a myriad of problems outside combat, in the other 2/3 of the game. A druid is plenty strong, and we just don't have to get into which caster is stronger, but I do get the feeling that most of the arguments about wildshape in combat just totally miss the fact that it's firstly a choice, (an option for when you need/want it), and that a druid's spells are another choice/option, but a Druid can also choose to go into melee or become a support. It all depends on your group, the situation, and what you want out of it.
1) Star Druid also gets guiding bolt and I named a bunch of good attack spells other than lightning bolt. Sunbeam is concentration so you can use it every turn. So if a fight last 3 rounds it’s like throwing three fireballs with only one spell slot expended if the fight last longer even better. Also it’s awesome because you could become an earth elemental after casting this and earth glide while popping up and blasting enemies with it. Notice I have a thing for Earth glide. Also you have two many summon spells prepared for my liking. Maybe your group runs enough combats per day to use all those, but mine does not.
2) By your standards frostbite does much better damage beyond level 5 than vicious mockery. Don’t move the goal post now. Produce Flame acts as a light source as it’s special thing and ray of frost rider isn’t that great. It can be useful but don’t act like it’s great. Frostbite rider is the superior cold damage rider. Primal savagery is what you use when you are already in melee and since you are moon Druid you Wildshape into and owl or giant owl with flyby to get out of melee or into an earth elemental and tank melee.
3) Yes it will turn on your party, but don’t lose concentration by not tanking damage and earth gliding out of danger. If you don’t have time just use one of the new summons. Far more boring but they suffice and only take an action. As for your way of using an earth elemental it’s fine, but we were arguing how to use it with Spells. Again sunbeam is a good spell for earth and air elementals to concentrate on. Air is probably better for sunbeam. Investiture of fire might be good on an earth elemental that likes to grapple like you. Flaming sphere and fire elemental is a good combo as well. Guardian of Nature plus any Wild shape is always nice. Wall of fire turn into a fire element and stay in the wall. And my favorite wall of stone earth elemental earth glide.
No, what it means is that you're not spending those other resources when you're using wildshape instead. I'm not sure how else to phrase this so that you can understand that point? And wildshape is not just usable in combat; for both Moon and non-Moon druids it's main use will often be out of combat, where it's also saving you spell slots.
Every single time wildshape lets you achieve something that would have otherwise cost a spell slot, it has saved you a spell-slot. And I have not once said wildshape is an "unfair resource", that's not the argument at all. I'm perfectly happy for wildshape to be a Druid feature, but it needs to be acknowledged that it gives access to a bunch of different capabilities that would normally require spells; this should not be a controversial statement, and it's certainly not a false one (so kindly stop calling accusing everyone that disagrees with you of being liars).
Besides which, the whole point is that when Circle of the Moon gets better at wildshaping for free it means they're gaining something on top of a feature that already effectively makes them more efficient spellcasters, which is where the balance issues creep in, because they're not supposed to be better spellcasters, they're supposed to be better wildshapers, which in turns diminishes casting focused druids. Literally the entire point is to highlight why there is a balance issue around how to implement Circle of the Moon features on top of whatever the updated Wildshape looks like.
But the broader issue is that not using wildshape should be similarly valuable to using it; currently that's only the case for specific sub-classes, and not necessarily the case when comparing to Moon Druid. While in the UA, find familiar is a decent option (but really just stealing Wizard's thing), healing blossom is pretty rubbish, so the baseline "nature mage" isn't really covered.
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Round and round we go. I already acknowledge that Starry druid is the one druid that does work as a "nature" mage because they are the one that actually gets multiple features that enhance their spellcasting - it's not just guiding bolt, starry form has options to enhance you offence, healing, or concentration, the Guidance and Augury enhances your utility casting, Woe can improve you chances to get saving throw spells to stick.
At level 11, you get 1x 6th level spell per day, and 3x 3rd level slots per day making Sunbeam and 3x Fireballs comparable in cost, arguably the fireballs are cheaper b/c 3rd level spells can be regenerated by various features but a 6th level slot cannot. And Fireball covers a bigger area too. But it is rather beside the point since you're usually using that slot for Transport via Plants since it is the best group teleportation spell in the game - cause that's the one thing that druids are the best at.. their actual niche.. the one you don't realize until you've played them a bit... Druids are the party bus, they get the party from point A to point B in the most efficient manner. It's why that is the only use of WS that is preserved in One D&D.
Conjure Animals to summon Giant Owls to fly the party wherever they need to go as quickly as possible, or a higher levels Giant Eagles then a highest levels Windwalk lets you all fly there as clouds. If time isn't pressing WS into a Large creature an ferry the party one by one. If you need to get them there quietly you've got Pass without Trace or at higher levels Animal Shapes to make everyone as inconspicuous as you. Druidcraft let's you predict the weather so you know whether it is safe to travel, and when you need to stop and find shelter from a storm and at 15th level you can simply change the weather to what suits. Speak with Animals let's you easily stop for directions anywhere. Goodberry and Purify Food and Drink ensure the party stay will nourished along the journey. Transport via Plants and Plane Shift let you reliably bus the party great distances and even planes, while Water walk, Warding Wind, Antilife Shell and Freedom of Movement enable you to safely navigate all kinds of hostile terrain.
Yes, the bus and the healer the two most heroic roles for the all powerful do-everything spellcaster who needs to be nerfed hard so the poor little Barbarian who only gets to do 50 damage per round using only a single resource doesn't feel overshadowed.
It really doesn't. Yes it absolutely saves you spellslots, but mostly that just increases the amount of Goodberries you are carrying around with you. Because it is almost impossible to run out of spellslots as a druid because every spell worth casting is concentration.
Funny, I’ll take ray of frost over frostbite any day.
The only real problem with Ray of frost is the range, if it were 90 feet it would almost be an auto-include.
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We know this ain't happening. There are way too many people who think of Aragon or Drizzt as archetypal Rangers for this to make it past UA.
It would be more likely if we got a class devoted to shape shifting completely separate from any previous 5e class.
frostbite does have one specific niche in which it's better than ray of frost -- when a caster is in melee range of an enemy and wants to mess with a potential opportunity attack before they skedaddle
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It's certainly not something that should be a class feature, but there are plenty of oddball subclasses. I mean, there's already a shifter-ish barbarian (which is also an option; berserkers as werebears has some history).
True, but if that’s what one is worried about, shocking grasp does it better and does more damage. Basically, frostbite is just a worse version of 3 different spells all crammed together.
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Turning Wildshape into a spell is a bad idea. A) it allows Druid subclasses with combat suitable Wildshapes to get arguably too many Wildshapes; and B) Polymorph and Shapechange are concentration spells. Concentration spells are the maize and beans (to use a non-European metaphor) of Druid spellcasting.
This makes good sense. Trading some spell slots for combat viability is good for the balance meta. It's also a good use for spell slots that the Moon Druid is less likely to use anyway than most other Druid subclasses.
Top of the list should be effects that roughly replicate Barkskin and Stoneskin, which have very limited use for a Moon Druid due to being in melee range much of the time and both such spells using concentration. I could also see an effect fueled by spell slot replicating the "Wall of" spells that do damage to creatures doing melee attacks on the Moon Druid. "Flame skin" or "Thorn skin", etc.
FFS... Moon Druid already gets all of these suggestions with their current WS mechanics, and they get actually interesting forms that feel fundamentally different from each other at the same time.
The current "problem" with 5e moon druid (aside from level 2-4 which is completely busted b/c the CR threshold should be 1/2 rather than 1) is that the ONLY thing they are good at in WS in combat is tanking via massive hp pools. If we take that away from WS as it seems many people want, we NEED to give Moon druid something else to make up for it - i.e. let them keep full spellcasting while in WS, or give them a big increase in damage while in WS.
I don't see why either of these problems are, uh, problems. I'm assuming here that the Wild Shape class feature would go away, and the new Wild Shape spell would be tuned appropriately. A) You could make Moon unique by allowing them to burn more spell slots or higher level spell slots to enhance their Wild Shape spell, rather than just boosting it for free. Current Moon already has an ability to burn slots to heal while using Wild Shape so this isn't a new idea. Maybe Moon is the only one who can upcast Wild Shape -- wouldn't that be elegant! Put the upcast rule for the spell in the subclass instead of in the spell description. B) Wild Shape doesn't have to be though. And frankly I don't see why it should be. If you really want the spell to be breakable via pain, you could add specific text to it similar to how Charm Person can break.
No, the 5e Wildshape does not interact well with relying on concentration spells for AC boosts or resistance to X spells. This is why Mage Armor is better than Barkskin even though the latter guarantees a higher AC: Mage Armor is not a concertration spell and lasts 8 hours. Aside from the material cost of Stoneskin, it's main problem for current M.Druids is same issue with Barkskin: concentration. The point of creating a separate mechanic for conversion of spell slots to AC or "Wall of" boosts is to make melee Moon Druid more viable at Tier 2 and above by both freeing concentration up for offensive spells without sacrificing defense ( or relying on a Wizard ally to cast AC boosts for you).
Lol. We seem to be talking past each other a bit. I already agree with you on those points, Choir.
I would, however, like to keep the 5e Elemental Wildshapes, though, just allow it to scale up based on M.Druid level. Abilities like Earthglide, capsizing boats, or auto-set-aflame are both flavorful and useful. Just doing elemental damage is very boring by comparison.
Is taking away tanking what many people want? I've only ever raised it previously to highlight how broken the unlimited wildshape uses are, I think it's fine up until that point, though it can give access to quite a lot of "free" hit-points. My preference though would be for Moon Druid to get wildshapes that are better all-rounders in combat (i.e- not quite as tanky, but can hold their own on damage at all tiers), but then be able to spend extra resources to boost them further in either damage, durability or utility as desired.
So while for a non-Moon Druid a combat wildshape is a very niche thing (you'd do it to get a particular ability a new form has, or as a panic button for some hit-points if you're near death), for a Moon Druid a combat wildshape should always be a moderately good, but not too powerful (not going to step on a martial's toes). However then when you start burning spell slots to boost it, it should then be possible to compete, add damage resistances/types (elemental effects) etc. to become like a resource bound melee fighter.
I think this bolstering makes sense to be part of the sub-class feature but spending spell slots, rather than just giving them more access to spellcasting while wildshaped, otherwise what is the Moon Druid's weakness if they can become a kind of martial that still has full-casting? Doubling down on combat forms should be just that, i.e- your spellcasting is repurposed to support it, rather than being something you just have on top anyway.
Balancing the wildshapes is one of the big benefits of the template idea, even if Wizards massively screwed it up by making them all terrible; templates that scale properly from 1st- to 20th-level could be a good thing, we just need to get some of the utility and durability back, and have them not be objectively worse in every way than remaining as you were. But with actually good template forms it should make it a lot easier to balance the capabilities and progression, with Moon Druid getting some boosts for free, and others at whatever cost they're willing to pay.
That's just my preference though.
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Utilizing modular templates makes sense for Moon Druids. I just don't think it's worth it for non-Moon Druids as it adds layers of complication (math and multiple choices) to something that, for most Druids, plays a function essentially similar to that of "Jack of All Trades" for the Bard class.