'Backward compatible' is definitional and it'll be backward compatible, according to WotC's definition...which might not be your own.
I'm the minority, but frankly, I'll believe it when I see it. By my definition, 5e isn't 'backward compatible' with itself - "If a rule has been reprinted in a newer resource, you must always use the latest printing." Yeah, its an AL rule, but that's WotC publishing that rule for the latest edition of the game. So despite what they're saying they're going to do, they're doing the exact opposite right now...they're publishing specific rules that prevent backward compatibility within a single edition (let alone across editions). Maybe they'll do a 180, but they currently have the position that content is only backward compatible so long as the latest publications are silent on that prior content. Also look at the physical books VoGTM and MToF...which are still for sale in stores, yet you can no longer access them on DDB unless you unlocked them some time ago. So sure, backward compatible.
Yes,
there are a lot of people hanging off Crawfords words, putting it in big bold print and shouting to the masses “See they say we can run both at the same time!”. however there is still no statement to say that this will be achieved via character sheets on DnDbeyond.
yes they can be run at the same time, in the same campaign, in person with pen and paper, there is without a doubt that a DM could do that. What has not been said is that character generation for 2014 5e will continue to be electronically supported through DnDbeyond.
If the electronic platform is updated for 2024 there is a likelihood that the older versions are at best grandfathered (current subscribers keep access to 2014 character generation) and at worst switched automatically to the 2024 version (for those that wish to remain with 5e).
I’ve been through enough software updates to be skeptical of the outcome of “backwards compatible”
'Backward compatible' is definitional and it'll be backward compatible, according to WotC's definition...which might not be your own.
I'm the minority, but frankly, I'll believe it when I see it. By my definition, 5e isn't 'backward compatible' with itself - "If a rule has been reprinted in a newer resource, you must always use the latest printing." Yeah, its an AL rule, but that's WotC publishing that rule for the latest edition of the game. So despite what they're saying they're going to do, they're doing the exact opposite right now...they're publishing specific rules that prevent backward compatibility within a single edition (let alone across editions). Maybe they'll do a 180, but they currently have the position that content is only backward compatible so long as the latest publications are silent on that prior content. Also look at the physical books VoGTM and MToF...which are still for sale in stores, yet you can no longer access them on DDB unless you unlocked them some time ago. So sure, backward compatible.
Yes,
there are a lot of people hanging off Crawfords words, putting it in big bold print and shouting to the masses “See they say we can run both at the same time!”. however there is still no statement to say that this will be achieved via character sheets on DnDbeyond.
yes they can be run at the same time, in the same campaign, in person with pen and paper, there is without a doubt that a DM could do that. What has not been said is that character generation for 2014 5e will continue to be electronically supported through DnDbeyond.
If the electronic platform is updated for 2024 there is a likelihood that the older versions are at best grandfathered (current subscribers keep access to 2014 character generation) and at worst switched automatically to the 2024 version (for those that wish to remain with 5e).
I’ve been through enough software updates to be skeptical of the outcome of “backwards compatible”
WotC lost a LOT of trust with the proposed licence changes. If they keep saying that that One D&D is fully compatible with 5e and it only adds to 5e it will not take anything away and then when it comes out he community believes WotC were stretching the truth with those promises in order to prevent sales of books tanking before what is really a new edition comes out I think the huge move away from D&D which was threatened at the beginning of the year will happen in 2024. Wizards must have learnt that they need ot be honest with the player base after the recent fiasco.
I did find it odd however that in the same week that Spelljammer came out including a race that has "advantage on ability checks you make to initiate or escape a grapple." the first play test came out ruling that initiating and escaping a grapple no longer involves an ability check.
This is exactly why I'm buying one item a month that I really want to have in my collection. I think they will Legacy a most of the sourcebooks, so those are my priority, but some of the adventures are on my list as well. Either way, I just can't see where your DDB collection will be wiped of 5e materials.
It would be a massive fumble to remove legacy character creation. That work is already done, I don't see them throwing it out. They will probably lock it behind a toggle switch like homebrew content is handled now.
Beyond that, the current tools don't really care about compatibility as most rules aren't on character sheets. I don't think it will be pretty, but it will be doable.
How will adventures be backward compatible. Specificaly how will the encounters be rebalanced? Also IF a vtt comes will 5e adventure books be on it?
Nobody knows.
However, the most likely situation will be that the encounters will be the same. You just use 5e MM or 1D&D, and it will be balanced...in terms of what Wizards considers balanced.
As for the VTT, it's being released this year, do yes, I imagine it will have 5e adventures as well as 1D&D.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I am curious about how character creation will change once "One D&D" rolls out. Will there be a Fighter v.5e and Fighter v."One" option if you own both? Or will the Fighter v.5e option disappear when creating a character once this rolls out? Will "One D&D be present in the Source "check boxes"? I would like more detail about how it will all work simultaneously ...or that it won't.
I would like to hear an official dndbeyond response to this if they haven't already. If they have can someone enlighten me? I couldn't find anything.
What about if you own both versions of the Monster Manual... will both versions be visible? How will they be handling this?
I am curious about how character creation will change once "One D&D" rolls out. Will there be a Fighter v.5e and Fighter v."One" option if you own both? Or will the Fighter v.5e option disappear when creating a character once this rolls out? Will "One D&D be present in the Source "check boxes"? I would like more detail about how it will all work simultaneously ...or that it won't.
I would like to hear an official dndbeyond response to this if they haven't already. If they have can someone enlighten me? I couldn't find anything.
What about if you own both versions of the Monster Manual... will both versions be visible? How will they be handling this?
This hasn’t been officially addressed. Most likely 2014 classes will become “legacy” and you would have to select “legacy fighter” if you want it and have the 2014 PHB on DDB. By default it would be the 2024 fighter once it comes out, I assume. And you would have access to those 2024 PHB subclasses if you buy the 2024 PHB. Otherwise whatever is in the new version of basic rules.
Edit: DMG and MM would probably be the same “legacy” and accessible if you own them.
I have been wondering the same thing. I have to assume the new DMG will have some guidance about adapting earlier material that has not been redefined or replaced in the 2024 material. If you want to play a subclass that is not included in the new material, you;'ll just need to modify the aspects of that subclass that are redefined by the base class. This is some speculation, but if you're playing a wizard under the new rules, you get your subclass choice at level 3 (at least that was the impression I got from the fighter video, which is ironic I suppose). If you pick a legacy subclass, I guess you just retroactively add the legacy level 2 subclass features upon picking your subclass? I don't know, but I have to think this will be addressed.
I have been wondering the same thing. I have to assume the new DMG will have some guidance about adapting earlier material that has not been redefined or replaced in the 2024 material. If you want to play a subclass that is not included in the new material, you;'ll just need to modify the aspects of that subclass that are redefined by the base class. This is some speculation, but if you're playing a wizard under the new rules, you get your subclass choice at level 3 (at least that was the impression I got from the fighter video, which is ironic I suppose). If you pick a legacy subclass, I guess you just retroactively add the legacy level 2 subclass features upon picking your subclass? I don't know, but I have to think this will be addressed.
I agree it should be explained. But couldn’t you just use the 2014 base class if you use a 2014 subclass? They say you should be able to play them side-by-side. I could see where things might not mix. Beyond the level 3 subclass issues. I’m sure there’s people out there who can find some exploits of (hypothetical for example) use the 24 base warlock, a 14 subclass warlock, then multiclass with the 14 paladin base class and create some Frankenstein character with all the benefits and none of the drawbacks. That kind of thing.
I thought they had said in their video that you shouldn't be mixing 2024 character creation with 2014 character creation. I got the impression that you could play a "pure" 2014 character in a 2024 campaign (though they might be a bit underpowered depending), but that you couldn't mix the two within a single character. Also, that you couldn't (or it would be difficult to) play a 2024 character in a 2014 campaign because some of the terms have been redefined or were never present in the 2014 edition.
I might be misremembering, but that's what I got out of it.
I agree it should be explained. But couldn’t you just use the 2014 base class if you use a 2014 subclass?
Of course, you can, but at that point, are you really even using the 2024 rules? It's one thing to fill in undefined gaps, but to eschew elements of the new rules in the name of playing an old-style character... you may as well just play 2014 5e at that point, right?
We wont know fully until its all out but outside some feats and spells so far everything has been power creep so while technically you maybe able to use a old sub class or something, I'm not sure how well it would work out without some changes.
I agree it should be explained. But couldn’t you just use the 2014 base class if you use a 2014 subclass?
Of course, you can, but at that point, are you really even using the 2024 rules? It's one thing to fill in undefined gaps, but to eschew elements of the new rules in the name of playing an old-style character... you may as well just play 2014 5e at that point, right?
Well artificer doesn't exist yet, so you would kind of need to there. I can't figure out why anyone would pick the 2014 over the 2024 fighter though for example.
I agree it should be explained. But couldn’t you just use the 2014 base class if you use a 2014 subclass?
Of course, you can, but at that point, are you really even using the 2024 rules? It's one thing to fill in undefined gaps, but to eschew elements of the new rules in the name of playing an old-style character... you may as well just play 2014 5e at that point, right?
I was thinking more, if the group wants to move to 2024, but you really want to play, I don’t know, a scribes wizard. So you still use 2014 to make your character, and just use it without worrying about anything. Of course, then it might get wonky with spells, do you have to keep using 14 spells, or can you use 24 spells. I’d think that should be all or nothing, one set of spells or the other. Same with feats, maybe.
I feel like they’ll do something to explain it. Whether it’s a conversion guide, or a pdf supplement, or just a sidebar in one of the books. But they should really release sone kind of explainer soon. This vacuum only creates space for clickbait content to gin up anger with speculation.
I would hope that if they do a guide of some kind that would do a separate pdf or something instead of taking up space in the new book for the next 10 years. I mean, the information would only be relevant for the next year or two anyway.
I thought they had said in their video that you shouldn't be mixing 2024 character creation with 2014 character creation. I got the impression that you could play a "pure" 2014 character in a 2024 campaign (though they might be a bit underpowered depending), but that you couldn't mix the two within a single character. Also, that you couldn't (or it would be difficult to) play a 2024 character in a 2014 campaign because some of the terms have been redefined or were never present in the 2014 edition.
I might be misremembering, but that's what I got out of it.
I would also like point out this post is accurate. Crawford did say that you could use 2014 characters in a 2024 game but not the other way around. And the way he said it seemed to imply that you should not mix and match classes and subclasses without coming right out and saying it. But we will have to wait and see.
edit: by implied I mean he specifically stated that 2014 character could go forward while 2024 characters shouldn't go backwards and COMPLETELY avoided saying anything about mixing a matching, which I took to be deliberate on his part.
All these responses to my post/questions are well and good but they really need to address how this will be handled in their character creation interface (on dndbeyond) once "One D&D" rolls out. Will both 2014 classes / "Legacy" classes be available if you own both 2014 & 2024 versions when you create a character? How will this work on the digital platform of D&DBeyond? (On paper you can do whatever the hell you want.)
Also... the content of 2014 Monster Manual AND 2024 Monster Manual. How will their updated encounter builder handle this? Will you be able to choose "Legacy Beholder" OR "One D&D Beholder?
These questions are specific to the use of D&D Beyond and need to be addressed now if they want more people to pre-order the new core books. I personally don't want to commit until I know that ALL of my previous content will still be easily accessed.
(I sent a customer service email asking these questions days ago and have yet to receive a response.)
Well, it's not like the preorder period is going away next week. They have a couple months still before they need to actually implement anything, but I imagine there will be some statement about this within a few weeks. If it gets down to like 3 weeks before release and they haven't said anything, I'd start to panic.
Would it be that hard to play a current subclass with the new chassis? You get the same number of subclass features, they just come online at different levels. Just take them in the same order at the new levels. What am I missing otherwise?
This depends on the class and subclass. In another post I went over Way of the Kensei monk, as one of the simplest subclasses, and it's extremely straightforward: just add in weapon mastery and adjust the weapon proficiency pool to include new monk weapons. Whether or not it can keep up with the new subclasses in terms of power or feel, I don't know, but it's basically ready to
Other classes, like Sorceror, Warlock, and Druid, changed the level at which you get your subclass and changed a lot of the options and the levels at which those options are available. Some invocations in PHB had sister invocations in Tasha's that matched their level requirements. We know a lot of those level requirements changed in the new PHB, but some of those Tasha's invocations remain untouched despite being templated the same as PHB ones. And stuff like Hexblade had a lot of its options folded into the base class features, so it may essentially be down a subclass feature compared to the others.
I'll probably go through them all one at a time to list any compatibility issues: whether or not they're compatible as written, what the minimum viable change would be to each of them to bring them forwards (like shifting a feature back a level to match new subclasses), which PHB changes that got applied to new classes should get applied to them (for example, the increased base Monk weapon pool means the Kensei weapon pool must be slightly larger in order to not lose access to some weapons when taking the subclass or moving between editions), and things like weapon mastery for Hexblade warlocks, Battlemage Artificers, etc.
And finally any other small changes that seem intuitive, but may or may not be necessary for balance reasons or to keep the old subclass feeling like they're not missing out on all the new things. For example: I suggested that Kensei monks could use the mastery properties of their other kensei weapons if just pulling the subclass forward without any changes leaves them feeling underpowered compared to the other new monk subclasses.
"Backwards compatible" was plausible deniability for them not fixing or adding things the community really wanted, such as any amount of horizontal growth, character level tables, etc. It doesn't really mean anything.
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Yes,
there are a lot of people hanging off Crawfords words, putting it in big bold print and shouting to the masses “See they say we can run both at the same time!”.
however there is still no statement to say that this will be achieved via character sheets on DnDbeyond.
yes they can be run at the same time, in the same campaign, in person with pen and paper, there is without a doubt that a DM could do that. What has not been said is that character generation for 2014 5e will continue to be electronically supported through DnDbeyond.
If the electronic platform is updated for 2024 there is a likelihood that the older versions are at best grandfathered (current subscribers keep access to 2014 character generation) and at worst switched automatically to the 2024 version (for those that wish to remain with 5e).
I’ve been through enough software updates to be skeptical of the outcome of “backwards compatible”
WotC lost a LOT of trust with the proposed licence changes. If they keep saying that that One D&D is fully compatible with 5e and it only adds to 5e it will not take anything away and then when it comes out he community believes WotC were stretching the truth with those promises in order to prevent sales of books tanking before what is really a new edition comes out I think the huge move away from D&D which was threatened at the beginning of the year will happen in 2024. Wizards must have learnt that they need ot be honest with the player base after the recent fiasco.
I did find it odd however that in the same week that Spelljammer came out including a race that has "advantage on ability checks you make to initiate or escape a grapple." the first play test came out ruling that initiating and escaping a grapple no longer involves an ability check.
This is exactly why I'm buying one item a month that I really want to have in my collection. I think they will Legacy a most of the sourcebooks, so those are my priority, but some of the adventures are on my list as well. Either way, I just can't see where your DDB collection will be wiped of 5e materials.
It would be a massive fumble to remove legacy character creation. That work is already done, I don't see them throwing it out. They will probably lock it behind a toggle switch like homebrew content is handled now.
Beyond that, the current tools don't really care about compatibility as most rules aren't on character sheets. I don't think it will be pretty, but it will be doable.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Nobody knows.
However, the most likely situation will be that the encounters will be the same. You just use 5e MM or 1D&D, and it will be balanced...in terms of what Wizards considers balanced.
As for the VTT, it's being released this year, do yes, I imagine it will have 5e adventures as well as 1D&D.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I am curious about how character creation will change once "One D&D" rolls out. Will there be a Fighter v.5e and Fighter v."One" option if you own both? Or will the Fighter v.5e option disappear when creating a character once this rolls out?
Will "One D&D be present in the Source "check boxes"? I would like more detail about how it will all work simultaneously ...or that it won't.
I would like to hear an official dndbeyond response to this if they haven't already. If they have can someone enlighten me? I couldn't find anything.
What about if you own both versions of the Monster Manual... will both versions be visible? How will they be handling this?
The Art Wizard of Oaktown
This hasn’t been officially addressed. Most likely 2014 classes will become “legacy” and you would have to select “legacy fighter” if you want it and have the 2014 PHB on DDB. By default it would be the 2024 fighter once it comes out, I assume. And you would have access to those 2024 PHB subclasses if you buy the 2024 PHB. Otherwise whatever is in the new version of basic rules.
Edit: DMG and MM would probably be the same “legacy” and accessible if you own them.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I have been wondering the same thing. I have to assume the new DMG will have some guidance about adapting earlier material that has not been redefined or replaced in the 2024 material. If you want to play a subclass that is not included in the new material, you;'ll just need to modify the aspects of that subclass that are redefined by the base class. This is some speculation, but if you're playing a wizard under the new rules, you get your subclass choice at level 3 (at least that was the impression I got from the fighter video, which is ironic I suppose). If you pick a legacy subclass, I guess you just retroactively add the legacy level 2 subclass features upon picking your subclass? I don't know, but I have to think this will be addressed.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I agree it should be explained. But couldn’t you just use the 2014 base class if you use a 2014 subclass? They say you should be able to play them side-by-side.
I could see where things might not mix. Beyond the level 3 subclass issues. I’m sure there’s people out there who can find some exploits of (hypothetical for example) use the 24 base warlock, a 14 subclass warlock, then multiclass with the 14 paladin base class and create some Frankenstein character with all the benefits and none of the drawbacks. That kind of thing.
I thought they had said in their video that you shouldn't be mixing 2024 character creation with 2014 character creation. I got the impression that you could play a "pure" 2014 character in a 2024 campaign (though they might be a bit underpowered depending), but that you couldn't mix the two within a single character. Also, that you couldn't (or it would be difficult to) play a 2024 character in a 2014 campaign because some of the terms have been redefined or were never present in the 2014 edition.
I might be misremembering, but that's what I got out of it.
Of course, you can, but at that point, are you really even using the 2024 rules? It's one thing to fill in undefined gaps, but to eschew elements of the new rules in the name of playing an old-style character... you may as well just play 2014 5e at that point, right?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
We wont know fully until its all out but outside some feats and spells so far everything has been power creep so while technically you maybe able to use a old sub class or something, I'm not sure how well it would work out without some changes.
Well artificer doesn't exist yet, so you would kind of need to there. I can't figure out why anyone would pick the 2014 over the 2024 fighter though for example.
I was thinking more, if the group wants to move to 2024, but you really want to play, I don’t know, a scribes wizard. So you still use 2014 to make your character, and just use it without worrying about anything. Of course, then it might get wonky with spells, do you have to keep using 14 spells, or can you use 24 spells. I’d think that should be all or nothing, one set of spells or the other. Same with feats, maybe.
I feel like they’ll do something to explain it. Whether it’s a conversion guide, or a pdf supplement, or just a sidebar in one of the books. But they should really release sone kind of explainer soon. This vacuum only creates space for clickbait content to gin up anger with speculation.
I would hope that if they do a guide of some kind that would do a separate pdf or something instead of taking up space in the new book for the next 10 years. I mean, the information would only be relevant for the next year or two anyway.
Mother and Cat Herder. Playing TTRPGs since 1989 (She/Her)
I would also like point out this post is accurate. Crawford did say that you could use 2014 characters in a 2024 game but not the other way around. And the way he said it seemed to imply that you should not mix and match classes and subclasses without coming right out and saying it. But we will have to wait and see.
edit: by implied I mean he specifically stated that 2014 character could go forward while 2024 characters shouldn't go backwards and COMPLETELY avoided saying anything about mixing a matching, which I took to be deliberate on his part.
Mother and Cat Herder. Playing TTRPGs since 1989 (She/Her)
All these responses to my post/questions are well and good but they really need to address how this will be handled in their character creation interface (on dndbeyond) once "One D&D" rolls out. Will both 2014 classes / "Legacy" classes be available if you own both 2014 & 2024 versions when you create a character? How will this work on the digital platform of D&DBeyond? (On paper you can do whatever the hell you want.)
Also... the content of 2014 Monster Manual AND 2024 Monster Manual. How will their updated encounter builder handle this? Will you be able to choose "Legacy Beholder" OR "One D&D Beholder?
These questions are specific to the use of D&D Beyond and need to be addressed now if they want more people to pre-order the new core books. I personally don't want to commit until I know that ALL of my previous content will still be easily accessed.
(I sent a customer service email asking these questions days ago and have yet to receive a response.)
The Art Wizard of Oaktown
Well, it's not like the preorder period is going away next week. They have a couple months still before they need to actually implement anything, but I imagine there will be some statement about this within a few weeks. If it gets down to like 3 weeks before release and they haven't said anything, I'd start to panic.
This depends on the class and subclass. In another post I went over Way of the Kensei monk, as one of the simplest subclasses, and it's extremely straightforward: just add in weapon mastery and adjust the weapon proficiency pool to include new monk weapons. Whether or not it can keep up with the new subclasses in terms of power or feel, I don't know, but it's basically ready to
Other classes, like Sorceror, Warlock, and Druid, changed the level at which you get your subclass and changed a lot of the options and the levels at which those options are available. Some invocations in PHB had sister invocations in Tasha's that matched their level requirements. We know a lot of those level requirements changed in the new PHB, but some of those Tasha's invocations remain untouched despite being templated the same as PHB ones. And stuff like Hexblade had a lot of its options folded into the base class features, so it may essentially be down a subclass feature compared to the others.
I'll probably go through them all one at a time to list any compatibility issues: whether or not they're compatible as written, what the minimum viable change would be to each of them to bring them forwards (like shifting a feature back a level to match new subclasses), which PHB changes that got applied to new classes should get applied to them (for example, the increased base Monk weapon pool means the Kensei weapon pool must be slightly larger in order to not lose access to some weapons when taking the subclass or moving between editions), and things like weapon mastery for Hexblade warlocks, Battlemage Artificers, etc.
And finally any other small changes that seem intuitive, but may or may not be necessary for balance reasons or to keep the old subclass feeling like they're not missing out on all the new things. For example: I suggested that Kensei monks could use the mastery properties of their other kensei weapons if just pulling the subclass forward without any changes leaves them feeling underpowered compared to the other new monk subclasses.
"Backwards compatible" was plausible deniability for them not fixing or adding things the community really wanted, such as any amount of horizontal growth, character level tables, etc. It doesn't really mean anything.