The Revived Rogue is basically an archetype that the rogue doesn't have a real choice in if they get it. The rogue in question might have been heading towards being an accomplished Thief or Swashbuckler, and suddenly a single near death experience or dream locks them into a path that they hadn't worked towards. Mechanically, I understand how one could pick that. But it reads like some bad tropes.
This is really why I prefer the trickster interpretation; a rogue should always have got themselves into this mess, whatever mess it is.
Issue is, a rogue archetype isnt a backstory. A warlock, sorcerer, and cleric archetype is a backstory (less so with cleric). A rogue archetype is just a kind of rogue, it does not include a narrative to it beyond abilities. Attempting to force that onto a class without subclasses at 1st level is awkward at best.
I am just realizing how broken Bolts From the Grave is. All you need to make it insanely overpowered is a cantrip.
For example, a 2 level dip into warlock to get EB and agonizing blast would let you Disengage from Melee or Dash, EB, and sneak attack in a single turn every turn.
This works with any cantrip. And if you have bigger spells... Fireball AND sneak attack damage? Sure why not, since you can cast, then dash, then bolt from the grave.
You don’t even need to dip if you don’t want to - many races get cantrips as standard. Consider a High Elf revived rogue who takes Toll the Dead as their cantrip. At level 3, hide for your cunning action, 2d6 necrotic from bolts, then 1d12 from Toll the Dead, since the target is now missing hit points, then move. That’s a bit broken.
Granted, using a cantrip and Bolts from the Grave will use two different spellcasting ability modifiers. Dex for the grave bolt and whatever else for the cantrip. I don't know of any other ability that offers DEX as a spellcasting modifier.
Yeah. I just used the EB example because it was extreme. And it isn't that this is too much damage. It's just too much damage to be able to crank out EVERY TURN without so much as expending a spell slot.
Unclevertitle however, since Dex is still a key stat for many casters since it determines AC, it isn't hard for that to be reasonably high. I mean, prioritizing Dex, Cha, and Con and a race like Drow or Changing and you could easily have an 18-20 on one attack stat and a 17 on another at level 1 and still have a 14 on a 3rd. I see what you are saying with this being a little MAD, but still.
Possibly the greatest effect in this entire crop of UA is how it would look when a gnome rune knight used "Giant Might" to go straight from Small to Large.
I finally figured out what it is that offsets me about the Swarmkeeper. Its not specifically a gripe with this class (other than the fact that we are forgetting about Revised Ranger which i Will be butter about until the day i die) but its a core 5e design philosophy for subclasses occasionally where Every Single subclass feature you receive is a Time sensitive AND limited use ability. No proficiencies, no passives. Nothing that can be used no matter what and i really dont like that, and it happens occasionally with other subclasses too. It mostly just makes me sad.
You went to great lengths to avoid saying "...what it is that BUGS me..." and to me that says volumes about the potential of this class!
All I needed to hear was that I can play Mortal Kombat's D'Vorah in 5E and I was good to go. Sign me the fudge up.
You don’t even need to dip if you don’t want to - many races get cantrips as standard. Consider a High Elf revived rogue who takes Toll the Dead as their cantrip. At level 3, hide for your cunning action, 2d6 necrotic from bolts, then 1d12 from Toll the Dead, since the target is now missing hit points, then move. That’s a bit broken.
If you look at the damage averages its actually not that much different....In fact at 3rd level:
Normal Rogue: Rapier with Sneak attack = 1d8 + Dex + 2d6 sneak attack = 4.5 + 3 + 7= 14.5 average damage Revived Rogue: Toll the dead + Grave Bolt = 1d12 + 2d6 sneak attack = 6.5 +7 = 13.5 average damage. Arcane Trickster rogue: Booming Blade + Rapier + Dex+ Sneak attack = 4.5 (if the target moves) + 4.5 + 3 + 7= 19 average damage
So its actually worse in terms of average damage. The thing people are forgetting about is the lack of the Dex mod to damage.
Its actually better at later levels but balance in damage is assuming the rogue is getting Sneak attack every round.
Where it would get nutty is the Warlock MC with agonizing blast but you are also losing two levels of rogue and therefore Sneak Attack damage die and have to focus on maxing DEX and CHA to get he most benefit from it.
Arcane Trickster is already getting decent damage output with the SCAG cantrips so its really not that big of a deal.
So many posts about The Revived not feeling "Rogue-like", that it should've been a Sorcerer subclass or background, and that's fine. There's nothing stopping players and DMs from homebrewing their own classes or flavoring an existing one to fit the Revenant-type character they're looking for, the customization options are there for everyone to tweak imo.
For me The Revived breaks exciting ground in the Rogue class, straying from dusty archetypes. I'd be more upset if WoTC just released another shade of Thief/Assassin.
Think of it. A person with enough guile, expertise, and erudition to cheat Death? And what are rogues known for? Breaking laws, what bigger law is there than the natural law of Death? That's some prime real estate for some great storytelling.
I'm all for WoTC taking the classes in bold, new directions.
So many posts about The Revived not feeling "Rogue-like", that it should've been a Sorcerer subclass or background, and that's fine. There's nothing stopping players and DMs from homebrewing their own classes or flavoring an existing one to fit the Revenant-type character they're looking for, the customization options are there for everyone to tweak imo.
For me The Revived breaks exciting ground in the Rogue class, straying from dusty archetypes. I'd be more upset if WoTC just released another shade of Thief/Assassin.
Think of it. A person with enough guile, expertise, and erudition to cheat Death? And what are rogues known for? Breaking laws, what bigger law is there than the natural law of Death? That's some prime real estate for some great storytelling.
I'm all for WoTC taking the classes in bold, new directions.
This is Exactly my point about the Rogue, except much more succinctly put. Apparently I didn't need to go into the whole diatribe about folklore. :P
I am really liking all of the classes. I am not too worried about any OP aspect of the RK or Revived, they will be examined and nerffed appropriately I think. Outside of that it would seem the most common complaint I am reading is the issue with potential overlapping or unnecessary thematic flavors. Which is interesting, because the some are saying the RK is too constricting while also saying the Swarmkeeper is open or overlaps thematically.
The Swarm Keeper has really cool lore and mechanics, but one could argue that this would make a more appropriate Druid subclass? the Rune Knight in my opinion is amazing, but there are other cultures outside of Giants that use runes or have runes in their backstory that could easily be used in lieu of "Giants" which makes it constricting (especially because of the very explicit Giant abilities you receive).
Valid Points. However, we should keep in mind that the heart behind 5e was to keep things open so you could still have multiple options within classes. The Rogue is not the only one who can infiltrate and or perform recon. Now we have Shadow Monk and the Dex based fighters who can as well. Paladins and Clerics are no longer the only melee caster classes. We have Eldritch Knight, Rune Knight(sort of) and Hex Blade. The Druid is no longer the one with an intimate connection to animals. Now we have Beast Master, Totem Warrior and Swarm Keeper (many more and better examples out there).
I personally love the Giant connection to the Rune Knight. We do not have any class with these abilities and it gives it a very unique standing with the other classes. However I understand the issue others have with it. It is tricky because they have abilities that directly reflect the Giant lore/flavor so it is not a matter of simply reskinning the runes. Ill be happy either way, if they keep or lose the growth abilities so that one could reskin them. I will say we do have the Eldritch knight if people want to be magic fighters. You could say they studied magic from the ancient runes of ________________ and learned arcane magic from them. There is a multitude of ways a fighter can become and eldritch knight and multiple runes you can say influenced your fighter. So if it is a matter of not having option with the Rune Knight, you could simply play an Eldritch Knight and give it the backstory you want?
So in conclusion: 5e Classes are meant to be special bases with different open options. 5e Sub-classes are meant to be unique in form.
Am I the only one who recognizes the Revived Rogue is essentially Eric Draven from The Crow movie? Just slap on the Entertainer background and there you go. Though admittedly, going into Undying Warlock could also be appropriate.
I mean sure this might be the sort of concept that people would want to see opened up to other classes, but I do feel it can work for the Rogue... Admittedly, this could also be sen as an expansion of the Revenant as a full subclass instead of simply a race.
Possibly the greatest effect in this entire crop of UA is how it would look when a gnome rune knight used "Giant Might" to go straight from Small to Large.
I know that's not what you may have intended others to take from this, but with that idea... I can actually see that being a lot of fun. Since gnomes are of course a small race, the idea that they can become "Larger than Life" in a more literal sense is actually pretty intriguing and sounds awesome.
The thing that irritates me is that they cannibalized the now abandoned Mystic class to give us all of these subclasses. Now instead of having any potential for a single class that can do supernatural stuff without the same old boring mechanic of spending spell slots we get a bunch of subclasses that feel shoehorned together somehow. (Wrong thread, my bad)
This is really why I prefer the trickster interpretation; a rogue should always have got themselves into this mess, whatever mess it is.
Issue is, a rogue archetype isnt a backstory. A warlock, sorcerer, and cleric archetype is a backstory (less so with cleric). A rogue archetype is just a kind of rogue, it does not include a narrative to it beyond abilities. Attempting to force that onto a class without subclasses at 1st level is awkward at best.
I am just realizing how broken Bolts From the Grave is. All you need to make it insanely overpowered is a cantrip.
For example, a 2 level dip into warlock to get EB and agonizing blast would let you Disengage from Melee or Dash, EB, and sneak attack in a single turn every turn.
This works with any cantrip. And if you have bigger spells... Fireball AND sneak attack damage? Sure why not, since you can cast, then dash, then bolt from the grave.
You don’t even need to dip if you don’t want to - many races get cantrips as standard. Consider a High Elf revived rogue who takes Toll the Dead as their cantrip. At level 3, hide for your cunning action, 2d6 necrotic from bolts, then 1d12 from Toll the Dead, since the target is now missing hit points, then move. That’s a bit broken.
Granted, using a cantrip and Bolts from the Grave will use two different spellcasting ability modifiers. Dex for the grave bolt and whatever else for the cantrip. I don't know of any other ability that offers DEX as a spellcasting modifier.
Yeah. I just used the EB example because it was extreme. And it isn't that this is too much damage. It's just too much damage to be able to crank out EVERY TURN without so much as expending a spell slot.
Unclevertitle however, since Dex is still a key stat for many casters since it determines AC, it isn't hard for that to be reasonably high. I mean, prioritizing Dex, Cha, and Con and a race like Drow or Changing and you could easily have an 18-20 on one attack stat and a 17 on another at level 1 and still have a 14 on a 3rd. I see what you are saying with this being a little MAD, but still.
Possibly the greatest effect in this entire crop of UA is how it would look when a gnome rune knight used "Giant Might" to go straight from Small to Large.
I myself really like the Revived Rogue it gets my Imagination going and I think it would be a blast to play one.
You went to great lengths to avoid saying "...what it is that BUGS me..." and to me that says volumes about the potential of this class!
All I needed to hear was that I can play Mortal Kombat's D'Vorah in 5E and I was good to go. Sign me the fudge up.
Pft. Honestly it wasn’t intentional but thats funny
If you look at the damage averages its actually not that much different....In fact at 3rd level:
Normal Rogue: Rapier with Sneak attack = 1d8 + Dex + 2d6 sneak attack = 4.5 + 3 + 7= 14.5 average damage
Revived Rogue: Toll the dead + Grave Bolt = 1d12 + 2d6 sneak attack = 6.5 +7 = 13.5 average damage.
Arcane Trickster rogue: Booming Blade + Rapier + Dex+ Sneak attack = 4.5 (if the target moves) + 4.5 + 3 + 7= 19 average damage
So its actually worse in terms of average damage. The thing people are forgetting about is the lack of the Dex mod to damage.
Its actually better at later levels but balance in damage is assuming the rogue is getting Sneak attack every round.
Where it would get nutty is the Warlock MC with agonizing blast but you are also losing two levels of rogue and therefore Sneak Attack damage die and have to focus on maxing DEX and CHA to get he most benefit from it.
Arcane Trickster is already getting decent damage output with the SCAG cantrips so its really not that big of a deal.
So many posts about The Revived not feeling "Rogue-like", that it should've been a Sorcerer subclass or background, and that's fine. There's nothing stopping players and DMs from homebrewing their own classes or flavoring an existing one to fit the Revenant-type character they're looking for, the customization options are there for everyone to tweak imo.
For me The Revived breaks exciting ground in the Rogue class, straying from dusty archetypes. I'd be more upset if WoTC just released another shade of Thief/Assassin.
Think of it. A person with enough guile, expertise, and erudition to cheat Death? And what are rogues known for? Breaking laws, what bigger law is there than the natural law of Death? That's some prime real estate for some great storytelling.
I'm all for WoTC taking the classes in bold, new directions.
You can eat the dice if you’re brave enough
This is Exactly my point about the Rogue, except much more succinctly put. Apparently I didn't need to go into the whole diatribe about folklore. :P
I am really liking all of the classes. I am not too worried about any OP aspect of the RK or Revived, they will be examined and nerffed appropriately I think. Outside of that it would seem the most common complaint I am reading is the issue with potential overlapping or unnecessary thematic flavors. Which is interesting, because the some are saying the RK is too constricting while also saying the Swarmkeeper is open or overlaps thematically.
The Swarm Keeper has really cool lore and mechanics, but one could argue that this would make a more appropriate Druid subclass?
the Rune Knight in my opinion is amazing, but there are other cultures outside of Giants that use runes or have runes in their backstory that could easily be used in lieu of "Giants" which makes it constricting (especially because of the very explicit Giant abilities you receive).
Valid Points. However, we should keep in mind that the heart behind 5e was to keep things open so you could still have multiple options within classes. The Rogue is not the only one who can infiltrate and or perform recon. Now we have Shadow Monk and the Dex based fighters who can as well. Paladins and Clerics are no longer the only melee caster classes. We have Eldritch Knight, Rune Knight(sort of) and Hex Blade. The Druid is no longer the one with an intimate connection to animals. Now we have Beast Master, Totem Warrior and Swarm Keeper (many more and better examples out there).
I personally love the Giant connection to the Rune Knight. We do not have any class with these abilities and it gives it a very unique standing with the other classes. However I understand the issue others have with it. It is tricky because they have abilities that directly reflect the Giant lore/flavor so it is not a matter of simply reskinning the runes. Ill be happy either way, if they keep or lose the growth abilities so that one could reskin them. I will say we do have the Eldritch knight if people want to be magic fighters. You could say they studied magic from the ancient runes of ________________ and learned arcane magic from them. There is a multitude of ways a fighter can become and eldritch knight and multiple runes you can say influenced your fighter. So if it is a matter of not having option with the Rune Knight, you could simply play an Eldritch Knight and give it the backstory you want?
So in conclusion: 5e Classes are meant to be special bases with different open options. 5e Sub-classes are meant to be unique in form.
Am I the only one who recognizes the Revived Rogue is essentially Eric Draven from The Crow movie? Just slap on the Entertainer background and there you go. Though admittedly, going into Undying Warlock could also be appropriate.
I mean sure this might be the sort of concept that people would want to see opened up to other classes, but I do feel it can work for the Rogue... Admittedly, this could also be sen as an expansion of the Revenant as a full subclass instead of simply a race.
I know that's not what you may have intended others to take from this, but with that idea... I can actually see that being a lot of fun. Since gnomes are of course a small race, the idea that they can become "Larger than Life" in a more literal sense is actually pretty intriguing and sounds awesome.
It is also Mat Cauthon from the Wheel of Time (though he clearly multiclassed bard), and a few others i think.
The thing that irritates me is that they cannibalized the now abandoned Mystic class to give us all of these subclasses. Now instead of having any potential for a single class that can do supernatural stuff without the same old boring mechanic of spending spell slots we get a bunch of subclasses that feel shoehorned together somehow.(Wrong thread, my bad)
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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I absolutely love the Runed Knight!
How about an Urd?
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting