In general you are 100% correct. That’s why I would have been happy with using a lot of the same spells if they had just given us an alternative (pretty much any alternative) to the same old boring Spell Slots system. Heck, if they based the entire thing on nothing but Cantrips and Concentration Spells with nothing in between and any mechanic at all besides Spell Slots I would have accepted it so long as the Class Features and lore they had used fit the theme. But WotC is frankly too afraid that if they try anything at all different than Spell Slots that people would find it too different/complicated and not shovel over the shekels to buy it. 😓
The ladt version actually didn’t use spells slots, or traditional cantrips. It used a spell point system, which was also partially why it was do strong. The are rightfully afraid of not using spell slots in 5e
The original Psionicist first introduce the point system of “casting” back in 2nd edition. WotC brought it back in 3.0 for the original Sorcerer too. I totally understand the problem, but maybe a Die based system like they used for Superiority Dice or Bardic Inspiration might have worked instead. They could have them refresh on a Short Rest, or maybe recharge like a Dragon’s Breath Weapon. That was my idea anyway
I dont think you understand. The point system was TOO strong. And the way it was set up for the Mystic they essentially had their max level spells by lik 9th level
I dont think you understand. The point system was TOO strong. And the way it was set up for the Mystic they essentially had their max level spells by lik 9th level
Can you explain why, given it's essentially the variant that can be used for traditional classes as well?
And given how they inexplicably made the mystic a halfcaster (their max spell level is 5), "max spells at 9th level" is misleading.
From what I've played with the mystic, the point system is a little dangerous to the player because it fools you into thinking you have more resources than you really do. You think, "sure I'll spend 3 points to automatically do 3d8 psychic damage, I have so many left over", not realizing that you can do that maybe two more times and then you're tapped for the day. Spell slots I've found I'm way more conservative over. Should I really blow this scorching ray now? If I do, I'll only have two 2nd levels left, what if there's something bigger around the corner?
Anyway I disagree that a pure psionic class isn't a niche, or that using different mechanics is automatically overpowered. The mystic was rough as hell, it needed a lot of fine tuning, but it didn't need to be thrown out.
Believe me, I completely understand. The Point System has been broken since its inception back in 2e with the original Psionicist. Trust me, I played a Psionicist back then. That is why I suggested my alternative idea of REPLACING the point system and instead approaching Psionics as honed natural talent like the Fighter Battle Master’s Maneuvers or the Bards’ Inspiration.
They would select a few powers from a limited list and gain additional ones as they level (similar to the Battle Masters Maneuvers) and get a number of dice (not points) based on either Class level (like the Battle Master) or main Stat (like the Bards Inspiration Dice) to spend on using those powers. The powers would all be Concentration effects (just like Spells with that mechanic) that would represent the classic Psionicists “Disciplines” and add to that a few Cantrip style powers to represent the OG Talents. Would have been easier to balance because they could base those Features off of existing game mechanics, and would have probably kept most of the old players happy enough to put the torches and pitchforks down.
To CrutchCricket: (cause im not quoting thats too much)
They dont follow the rules of traditional spells, and are hardly even equatable to the spell slot system because they are on average more powerful, but for example; the spell that requires no save or attack roll does 7d8 damage at 9th level. On top of that psychic is one of the least resisted types in the game so that is strong no matter what. And that is on the weaker end of their “max level spell” that they get acces to at 9th level.
And sure at level 2, when you only have 6 points its hard to conserve them, but at 5th level you have 27 and while it is easier to spend them, you also arent locked into specific levels of strength like you ate with spell slots. You can cast all of the points you have at the maximum level which you have available to you.
Yes they are easier to use but it doesnt matter if everything is dying faster
And the niche thing, im not sure there is a way you can convince me that it’s unique. Its you. Re making a class based around psychic damage and reading peoples mind, something that is already fairly prevalent in the game and by no definition of the phrase missing from the game in the same way crafting was.
To CrutchCricket: (cause im not quoting thats too much)
They dont follow the rules of traditional spells, and are hardly even equatable to the spell slot system because they are on average more powerful, but for example; the spell that requires no save or attack roll does 7d8 damage at 9th level. On top of that psychic is one of the least resisted types in the game so that is strong no matter what. And that is on the weaker end of their “max level spell” that they get acces to at 9th level.
And sure at level 2, when you only have 6 points its hard to conserve them, but at 5th level you have 27 and while it is easier to spend them, you also arent locked into specific levels of strength like you ate with spell slots. You can cast all of the points you have at the maximum level which you have available to you.
Yes they are easier to use but it doesnt matter if everything is dying faster
And the niche thing, im not sure there is a way you can convince me that it’s unique. Its you. Re making a class based around psychic damage and reading peoples mind, something that is already fairly prevalent in the game and by no definition of the phrase missing from the game in the same way crafting was.
I was asking about the spell point variant specifically, because this is the first time I'm seeing it claimed as categorically overpowered.
But even for what the mystic had available, it's not as good as it seems on paper. Irresistible d8 damage sounds great, but even within the disciplines as given, there were better things you could spend your points on. At 5th level you have 27 points and you can spend 5 at a time. That means you can nuke 1 target 5 times automatically... or you use one of the other abilities that incapacitate, like Id Insinuation, which is a standard save or half, no effect on save. 5d8 damage per turn at level 5 isn't that crazy, especially on limited resources. Recommended spell damage at that level (3rd level spell is 5d10) for single target, as per the DMG. And again, if you use either exclusively, you have 5 uses and that's it, and you can't do anything else for the day, no lower level utility, no saving for the next fight, nothing. Is it more flexible, yes. Is it automatically overpowered, no. In a party with rogues, fighters and barbarians, you will not be the dps.
As for the niche, why do we have sorcerers AND wizards then? They both cast a lot of the same spells, they must not be unique if the both exist. And what the hell are bards about? They sing the same spells wizards cast? Or why even differentiate between arcane and divine magic? Psionics are magic, but they're a different type of magic that works differently, and that should be reflected with a distinct class. It doesn't matter that a level 2 spell can provide others with a signature ability of psionics. Why are changelings even a race, since mechanically they can just cast Alter Self at will? Because that's still their identity, that just happens to also be replicable by generic magic. Which is a redundant term, since most definitions of magic are "can do just about anything". But that's not an argument against introducing more specific/thematic systems. Hell, you can argue against artificer with your logic too. Why do we need a designated crafter, if magic can just fabricate things? There's literally a spell called Fabricate. Wizards can already enchant items. This isn't unique. Just buff enchantment wizards to craft things better and be done with it. But personally, I think variety is more fun than solving everything with "I wave a wand and expend this spell slot to x"
Psychic Warrior: All in all, a nice little feature set.
Psionic Armament: This feature is a bit on the weak side to be honest. While it does scale up, it does not do so enough. The augmented defense is limited to once per turn as a reaction, so scaling the D10 similar to cantrip scaling (though based on Class level rather than Character level) is not too far out of range. Augmented Strikes also is worded that it will only work once (maybe twice on reaction attacks of opportunity but I'm not sure based on the verbiage) per round and it caps out as 1d6 psychic damage. I really don't think it is too much to simply make it 1d4 added to all weapon attacks and let it scale with the Fighters extra attack feature.
Telekinetic hand: It always annoys me when spells are referenced for things that are meant to be abilities. Copy paste isn't actually that hard. Let the astute player go "Oh wait that's an invisible mage hand!"
Strength of Mind: YAAAS QUEEEN. Bonus action to scorpion/jedi pull someone to you and then whup on their head neck AND face. Or whup em like a rented mule and then toss em 15 feet away.
Telekinetic Bulwark: The only complaint here is that I think a 15ft radius rather than 10 might be more useful. 10 ft feels like it's just a little tight with a larger group.
Agonizing Strikes: feels good, but I think based on the wording that should the attack crit, the Psychic damage is not part of the critical hit. I could be wrong though.
Psychic Dreadnaught: The name is a bit odd, but the effect works quite nicely. Maybe the HP regen should be 10 + Intelligence Modifier though, just for brand consistency.
Soul Knife: AKA the thing I have wanted to build in Skyrim since I started playing that game.
The soul knife is an interesting Rogue Subtype, similar to the Swashbucklerin so far as it is very much a Combat theatre focused rogue. It does not carry much in the way of any additional social or exploration focused features.
Psychic Blade: Fantastic, a Psychic magic sneak attack at level 3. The damage is the equivalent of a short sword but also is a thrown weapon. So mathematically this works out to about a +1 dagger without the +1 to hit. By the time you get to a +2 dagger, this is a worse option UNLESS your style is throwing weapons focused, then this is just brilliant as no one really wants to be throwing a magic dagger and then have to track down where it ended up. I'd almost like the ability to use your Intelligence modifier for Psychic Blade attacks just so you can use your Intelligence as your primary stat.
Psionic Enhancement: I like the fact that you have to choose your skill set for the day. and the 3 skills are nice, although 2 out of 3 are combat related.
Terrifying Blade: A fun new effect that can be essentially stacked on a target to keep them afraid. Frightened is a combat ability, and throwing the knife is an attack, so no using this out of combat, still throwing psychic blades from 15 ft away that prevent the target from moving closer to you? MUHAHAHAAH
Psychic Veil: and at level 13 we get something exploration based. But man is it a doozy. On demand Invisibility. <slight spoiler> My Rogue in TOA managed to wrangle the ability to turn invisible at will. I can tell you it was absolutely nuts. Even with a limitation of up to 5 times per Long Rest this is still packing some serious usefulness.
Rend Mind: an incredibly powerful ability for an opening move or just in general. But I feel like it would be better to extend the stun to the 'End of the rogues turn' so they can take advantage of their own ability to do a backstab rather than spamming the skill.
Mike Mearls went on record a year ago as saying that WotC is concerned that any system other than Spell Slots would:
A) be too confusing for newer players and therefore be a barrier to entry into the hobby, and
B) be too complicated for DMs to juggle along with traditional magic and monster abilities and therefore they would prohibit its use at the table.
Combined, those two factors would mean they don’t get our money. I think WotC and Mr. Mearls are underestimating the D&D community and frankly I feel a little patronized.
Unless the change the lore for the setting entirely, there shouldn’t be any Sorcerers in Dark Sun. If there had been intrinsic magic then the Defilers wouldn’t have raped the planet in the first place. That is the basis for my personal objection to the Aberrant Mind.
So I'm seeing that people's grievance with these is that it means the Mystic is dead... where did they say the Mystic was dead? Did I miss something? Last time we saw the Soul Knife and Psionic Wizard was in the Happy Fun Hour and they were being developed along side a revamped Mystic that was not horribly broken and more refined as a summoner/full Int caster that uses concentration cantrips to alter their spells.
As for Psionics being their own separate mechanic. We already have a point based system for spells in the DMG, just use that? I came into DnD late so I am not precious with the passed editions and mechanics and thus don't really see the problem with Psionics just being a separate form of magic. They are just two ways to draw power from/interact with the weave.
Mike Mearls went on record a year ago as saying that WotC is concerned that any system other than Spell Slots would:
A) be too confusing for newer players and therefore be a barrier to entry into the hobby, and
B) be too complicated for DMs to juggle along with traditional magic and monster abilities and therefore they would prohibit its use at the table.
Combined, those two factors would mean they don’t get our money. I think WotC and Mr. Mearls are underestimating the D&D community and frankly I feel a little patronized.
Yeah lame. Also ironic given:
a) points per ability out of a pool is more intuitive to say, someone coming in from videogames since mana/energy bars are by far the most common way of implementing special abilities there. Spell slots are a remnant of teh vancian system, which is counter-intuitive and also lame as hell. That last may be my opinion but I do recall I actively resented spell slots before I fully understood them and it was a factor delaying my entry into DnD. It also factored into why when I did toy with the idea of picking it up I immediately gravitated towards the more esoteric options, like psions. Magic, but only if you do your homework and psedo-chemistry first, is the antithesis of having fantastical abilities to begin with.
b) they're never going to control the home games, but they do control AL and it seems that's what they're banking on more. Sure there's published stuff they disallowed like aarakocra, but if they do conform it to AL, it can't be disallowed there. Also, every sourcebook contains so much more than just a class. So even if people hate the class, they still have to buy the book for the other stuff.
So I'm seeing that people's grievance with these is that it means the Mystic is dead... where did they say the Mystic was dead? Did I miss something? Last time we saw the Soul Knife and Psionic Wizard was in the Happy Fun Hour and they were being developed along side a revamped Mystic that was not horribly broken and more refined as a summoner/full Int caster that uses concentration cantrips to alter their spells.
As for Psionics being their own separate mechanic. We already have a point based system for spells in the DMG, just use that? I came into DnD late so I am not precious with the passed editions and mechanics and thus don't really see the problem with Psionics just being a separate form of magic. They are just two ways to draw power from/interact with the weave.
I'm worried not just because they're releasing more psionic subclasses, but because a lot of the new spells are using recycled names from the mystic doc. That indicates more strongly that there won't be a mystic or equivalent.
As for psionics, yes they should be different. Still magic, but a different form of magic. I'm partial to the Far Realm influence myself, but since they exist within the multiverse they've adapted to interact (and be interacted) with regular magic. I'd say mages that have encountered and studied psionics can tailor their counterspells to disrupt psionic abilities, and likewise, psions have developed disruption abilities of their own to counter spellcasters (since spells begin with the will to cast them). Dispelling and anti-magic fields are a little trickier but for the most part I'd still lean towards equivalency.
On the Happy Fun Hour Mearls explicitly stated they were scraping the Mystic and replacing it with the Psion. The last time anyone heard about the Psion was in the Happy Fun Hour last November. After the way they changed the Artificer to bring it more in line with the rest of D&D’s magic users we are all (at least I am) just assuming that Psion is now dead too.
I came to D&D in the early ‘90’s and then jumped into AD&D soon afterward. I did play a Psionicist (precursors to the now defunct Mystics) and even I don’t have a problem with Psionics being treated as “Magic” so long as it does not employ “Spells” or “Spell Slots” as Psionics represents a direct mental manipulation of the universe without the need for contrivances such as spells. That is why people want a different mechanic to represent the Feature.
Unfortunately the Point System lends itself too easily for abuse. With the point system a caster could use a nearly limitless supply of lower level effects, or just have a bunch of everything at max power effects. Think about a Coffeelock (Sorcerer/Tome Warlock combo) without som of the extra stuff but also without the trouble of having to multiclass and without the need for the gimmick so there’s never any exhaustion. Either everything at level 9 all the time, or so many lower level effects they would never run out. How many people have you heard complain about that? Now multiply the problem X2.
The direction that Mike Mearls was going was super promising AND fit into the magic system as it exists already. The concept of using concentration cantrips only available to the Psion to alter the effects of spells was a pretty unique idea and something that set it apart from the other classes. I see no reason why they would scrap it, in fact, these UAs only further bolster my hopes that it is on the way. The last time we saw anything to do with Psionics was last November, including the Wizard we just got (in fact, wasn't it the thing Mike was working on when HFH went dark?). At the rate that we are getting UA recently they are clearly gearing up for something and I see no evidence that they are stopping any time soon. We'll probably be getting another batch of Psionic subclasses in the coming weeks and, if we are lucky, a sneak peak at the new and improved Psion. I guess I am more just questioning the overall doom and gloom of the community over this UA which is, in my opinion, pretty solid. There is definite room for improvement and some scaling issues that need to be fixed... but I get to play as a Sith, Psylocke, AND a psychic manipulation wizard? Sign me up.
And the Mystic needed to die. I have one in my campaign and, while it has led to some amazing moments, it is clearly far too powerful. I'm glad they are throwing some of the mechanics from it into these new UAs though. I hope they take all of the Wu Jen stuff and give it to a variant to the Way of the Four Elements Monk because that stuff would fit perfectly into the Ki system.
Yes, Vanican magic sucks @ss and always has. It used to be worse. Back in the day a “Magic User” (there were only three classes of Magic User Arcane, Divine, and Elf; yes you read that correctly, back then Race and Class took up the same space on the sheet so you were either a human with a class or a “Demihuman” [talk about intrinsic racism!]) where was I? Oh yes, Back in the day a Magic User had to memorize each Spell Slot individually. Imagine your Wizard having to dedicate each Spell Slot to a specific Spell Every morning (once per Long Rest) without any of the following: Cantrips, Spellcasting Focus, Ritual Casting, Arcane Recovery, ASIs/Feats, Spell Mastery, or Signature Spells. They had a D4 hit die, and when you “Specialized in a School” (Arcane Tradition) it meant you could not cast any Spells from certain other schools according to a little wheel diagram in the book. Oh, and you had quadrupole the EXP requirement/level of the fighter because each class had its own individual experience/level scale.
And there was no multiclassing or backgrounds to help with any of that.
Then the Psionicist hit and it was like a 5e Sorlock showing up to the same game. That is a major reason people will ALWAYS say “Psionics is broken/OP!” even now, what..? around 30 years later. That was just my experience, and there are people who played back in the 1st Edition. (Before my time, I’m not that old. 😉) AD&D fixed things a lot. 5e is thankfully based off of AD&D rather than OD&D or else you would still only be able to choose Race or Class.
And the Mystic needed to die. I have one in my campaign and, while it has led to some amazing moments, it is clearly far too powerful. I'm glad they are throwing some of the mechanics from it into these new UAs though. I hope they take all of the Wu Jen stuff and give it to a variant to the Way of the Four Elements Monk because that stuff would fit perfectly into the Ki system.
Apart from the Immortal options and mixing those in with some of the other disciplines, I'm not sure where this alleged overpoweredness comes from. Though on the other hand, the worst of these options are those that probably shouldn't be psionic to begin with. What does psi have to do with growing/shrinking, stacking temps indefinitely or straight up replicating spells?
But again, they threw everything they could think of into the mystic. What it should be is a core psion with Awakened, Nomad and maybe one other subclass. Wu Jen should be a monk subclass, Soul Knife a rogue subclass and Immortal split between barbarian and druid. Or something. I can't recall all the disciplines. They also need to figure the equivalent of 6-9th level psionics. Extra concentration does not suffice as a feature for levels 10-20 and it's a downright travesty that bards can cause more mind screwery with the likes of Modify Memory and Geas than the designated psychic. Level 15 Psion should be able to go full Psi Corps, level 20 should be Prof Xavier.
Yes, Vanican magic sucks @ss and always has. It used to be worse. Back in the day a “Magic User” (there were only three classes of Magic User Arcane, Divine, and Elf; yes you read that correctly, back then Race and Class took up the same space on the sheet so you were either a human with a class or a “Demihuman” [talk about intrinsic racism!]) where was I? Oh yes, Back in the day a Magic User had to memorize each Spell Slot individually. Imagine your Wizard having to dedicate each Spell Slot to a specific Spell Every morning (once per Long Rest) without any of the following: Cantrips, Spellcasting Focus, Ritual Casting, Arcane Recovery, ASIs/Feats, Spell Mastery, or Signature Spells. They had a D4 hit die, and when you “Specialized in a School” (Arcane Tradition) it meant you could not cast any Spells from certain other schools according to a little wheel diagram in the book. Oh, and you had quadrupole the EXP requirement/level of the fighter because each class had its own individual experience/level scale.
And there was no multiclassing or backgrounds to help with any of they
Then the Psionicist hit and it was like a 5e Sorlock showing up to the same game. That is a major reason people will ALWAYS say “Psionics is broken/OP!” even now, what..? around 30 years later. That was just my experience, and there are people who played back in the 1st Edition. (Before my time, I’m not that old. 😉) AD&D fixed things a lot. 5e is thankfully based off of AD&D rather than OD&D or else you would still only be able to choose Race or Class.
Yeah I had heard some of that. That's why I still sometimes get the urge to cringe if I hear "prepared spell slot" without warning.
I like the soul knife rogue, but yeah psion should be its own subclass.
Soulknife basically already exists though, the shadow blade spell with an arcane trickster rogue is pretty much this, and the damage does more on a hit than the Soulknife. I do like the flavor, but it needs to be more different.
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You may not believe that the Mystic was overpowered, but it was widely understood as far too powerful by the community. There is a reason the haven’t revisited it.
5d8 at level 5 is actually an average maximum (of 40 as seen by being close to the “Fireball” spell which is 48 and has been explicitly stated by WotC as the most overpowered spell in the game) and a slightly below average, average spell damage (of 25 as per standard average calculations) so the fact it is unavoidable is overpowered. And WotC doesnt even balance the spells they make to the rules in the DMG because they are over-tuned. And another thing. A large amount of the player base, specifically older players, think that the Sorcerer doesnt have enough that differentiates it from Wizard (because they very clearly favored certain classes but thats another argument). Bard are not chosen for their spell casting; Bards are the magical skill monkeys of the game, whereas Rouges are the Martial Skill monkeys. The only real difference between Arcane and Divine magic is mostly flavor yes, but there is no class, that parallels the massive pool of buffs heals and role versatility of the Cleric. you are looking at everything in black and white. There is a lot more depth to each class that you are giving it credit for, but a new type of damage dealing magical class is unnecessary. We have enough magical classes that are designed for disruption in the Druid, Bard and Cleric. And while you may be right, a magical crafting class may be unnecessary, the Artificer class was more of a fix to a really uninspired crafting system in the game what so ever, magic aside
There is no Niche that these versions of the mystic fill, that isnt already covered at least twice by the 13 classes now in the game.
I hope you’re right. Mearls’ work was uniqe and different and refreshing. That’s exactly why I think it won’t get used. After what happened to the Artificer though, I have this sinking feeling in my chest.* I’m expecting that the Psion will get the same treatment when it comes out, because to me they might as well not even bother at that point. Go back and watch the last 8-10 episodes of Happy Fun Hour and you will expressly hear Mearls explain the logic behind why WotC is scared to use anything other than Spell Slots. Sure, the Psion Could use the same Point System presented one the DMG, but so could everyone else and nobody does because it’s locked away in the DMG that’s really mostly useful for newer DMs and the Magic Items/Treasure Hordes sections. If WotC doesn’t put it in the new book, nobody will use it. Also, on HFH Mearls explained why Sorcerers don’t make sense on Dark Sun and why they wouldn’t be getting a Psionic Subclass. He basically took the words right out of my mouth. What are we getting? Oh look a psionic Sorcerer is coming out soon. 🙄
*The OG Artificer was just as radical as the Psionicist, but without the balance problems. The Artificer was originally designed to produce “Spell-like Effects” through the use of magically infused machines/devices instead of actually “Casting Spells” (sound familiar?) They used to only Know/be able to Cast a small handful of spells which were all that was needed to craft their devices. Their entire system for manipulating The Weave was completely unique to them.
Now it has become a watered down caster that has ended up making nobody happy. (Just go look at those threads for proof.) The old heads are complaining that “It’s different than it used to be!” and the newer players are complaining about everything else. I belong to the third group who’s upset because we were looking forward to something different. We were hoping we would get a character Class that did “magic” and wouldn't “Spell Slots” to do it. They could have used almost any other system and I would have been happy. What we got was more of the same.
The ladt version actually didn’t use spells slots, or traditional cantrips. It used a spell point system, which was also partially why it was do strong. The are rightfully afraid of not using spell slots in 5e
The original Psionicist first introduce the point system of “casting” back in 2nd edition. WotC brought it back in 3.0 for the original Sorcerer too. I totally understand the problem, but maybe a Die based system like they used for Superiority Dice or Bardic Inspiration might have worked instead. They could have them refresh on a Short Rest, or maybe recharge like a Dragon’s Breath Weapon. That was my idea anyway
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I dont think you understand. The point system was TOO strong. And the way it was set up for the Mystic they essentially had their max level spells by lik 9th level
Can you explain why, given it's essentially the variant that can be used for traditional classes as well?
And given how they inexplicably made the mystic a halfcaster (their max spell level is 5), "max spells at 9th level" is misleading.
From what I've played with the mystic, the point system is a little dangerous to the player because it fools you into thinking you have more resources than you really do. You think, "sure I'll spend 3 points to automatically do 3d8 psychic damage, I have so many left over", not realizing that you can do that maybe two more times and then you're tapped for the day. Spell slots I've found I'm way more conservative over. Should I really blow this scorching ray now? If I do, I'll only have two 2nd levels left, what if there's something bigger around the corner?
Anyway I disagree that a pure psionic class isn't a niche, or that using different mechanics is automatically overpowered. The mystic was rough as hell, it needed a lot of fine tuning, but it didn't need to be thrown out.
Believe me, I completely understand. The Point System has been broken since its inception back in 2e with the original Psionicist. Trust me, I played a Psionicist back then. That is why I suggested my alternative idea of REPLACING the point system and instead approaching Psionics as honed natural talent like the Fighter Battle Master’s Maneuvers or the Bards’ Inspiration.
They would select a few powers from a limited list and gain additional ones as they level (similar to the Battle Masters Maneuvers) and get a number of dice (not points) based on either Class level (like the Battle Master) or main Stat (like the Bards Inspiration Dice) to spend on using those powers. The powers would all be Concentration effects (just like Spells with that mechanic) that would represent the classic Psionicists “Disciplines” and add to that a few Cantrip style powers to represent the OG Talents. Would have been easier to balance because they could base those Features off of existing game mechanics, and would have probably kept most of the old players happy enough to put the torches and pitchforks down.
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To CrutchCricket: (cause im not quoting thats too much)
They dont follow the rules of traditional spells, and are hardly even equatable to the spell slot system because they are on average more powerful, but for example; the spell that requires no save or attack roll does 7d8 damage at 9th level. On top of that psychic is one of the least resisted types in the game so that is strong no matter what. And that is on the weaker end of their “max level spell” that they get acces to at 9th level.
And sure at level 2, when you only have 6 points its hard to conserve them, but at 5th level you have 27 and while it is easier to spend them, you also arent locked into specific levels of strength like you ate with spell slots. You can cast all of the points you have at the maximum level which you have available to you.
Yes they are easier to use but it doesnt matter if everything is dying faster
And the niche thing, im not sure there is a way you can convince me that it’s unique. Its you. Re making a class based around psychic damage and reading peoples mind, something that is already fairly prevalent in the game and by no definition of the phrase missing from the game in the same way crafting was.
Not the psionics we wanted, but I'm playing it as Mystra has gained control of it and has set limits like she has done with magic.
I was asking about the spell point variant specifically, because this is the first time I'm seeing it claimed as categorically overpowered.
But even for what the mystic had available, it's not as good as it seems on paper. Irresistible d8 damage sounds great, but even within the disciplines as given, there were better things you could spend your points on. At 5th level you have 27 points and you can spend 5 at a time. That means you can nuke 1 target 5 times automatically... or you use one of the other abilities that incapacitate, like Id Insinuation, which is a standard save or half, no effect on save. 5d8 damage per turn at level 5 isn't that crazy, especially on limited resources. Recommended spell damage at that level (3rd level spell is 5d10) for single target, as per the DMG. And again, if you use either exclusively, you have 5 uses and that's it, and you can't do anything else for the day, no lower level utility, no saving for the next fight, nothing. Is it more flexible, yes. Is it automatically overpowered, no. In a party with rogues, fighters and barbarians, you will not be the dps.
As for the niche, why do we have sorcerers AND wizards then? They both cast a lot of the same spells, they must not be unique if the both exist. And what the hell are bards about? They sing the same spells wizards cast? Or why even differentiate between arcane and divine magic? Psionics are magic, but they're a different type of magic that works differently, and that should be reflected with a distinct class. It doesn't matter that a level 2 spell can provide others with a signature ability of psionics. Why are changelings even a race, since mechanically they can just cast Alter Self at will? Because that's still their identity, that just happens to also be replicable by generic magic. Which is a redundant term, since most definitions of magic are "can do just about anything". But that's not an argument against introducing more specific/thematic systems. Hell, you can argue against artificer with your logic too. Why do we need a designated crafter, if magic can just fabricate things? There's literally a spell called Fabricate. Wizards can already enchant items. This isn't unique. Just buff enchantment wizards to craft things better and be done with it. But personally, I think variety is more fun than solving everything with "I wave a wand and expend this spell slot to x"
Continuing my review of the UA
Psychic Warrior: All in all, a nice little feature set.
Psionic Armament: This feature is a bit on the weak side to be honest. While it does scale up, it does not do so enough. The augmented defense is limited to once per turn as a reaction, so scaling the D10 similar to cantrip scaling (though based on Class level rather than Character level) is not too far out of range. Augmented Strikes also is worded that it will only work once (maybe twice on reaction attacks of opportunity but I'm not sure based on the verbiage) per round and it caps out as 1d6 psychic damage. I really don't think it is too much to simply make it 1d4 added to all weapon attacks and let it scale with the Fighters extra attack feature.
Telekinetic hand: It always annoys me when spells are referenced for things that are meant to be abilities. Copy paste isn't actually that hard. Let the astute player go "Oh wait that's an invisible mage hand!"
Strength of Mind: YAAAS QUEEEN. Bonus action to scorpion/jedi pull someone to you and then whup on their head neck AND face. Or whup em like a rented mule and then toss em 15 feet away.
Telekinetic Bulwark: The only complaint here is that I think a 15ft radius rather than 10 might be more useful. 10 ft feels like it's just a little tight with a larger group.
Agonizing Strikes: feels good, but I think based on the wording that should the attack crit, the Psychic damage is not part of the critical hit. I could be wrong though.
Psychic Dreadnaught: The name is a bit odd, but the effect works quite nicely. Maybe the HP regen should be 10 + Intelligence Modifier though, just for brand consistency.
Soul Knife: AKA the thing I have wanted to build in Skyrim since I started playing that game.
The soul knife is an interesting Rogue Subtype, similar to the Swashbucklerin so far as it is very much a Combat theatre focused rogue. It does not carry much in the way of any additional social or exploration focused features.
Psychic Blade: Fantastic, a Psychic magic sneak attack at level 3. The damage is the equivalent of a short sword but also is a thrown weapon. So mathematically this works out to about a +1 dagger without the +1 to hit. By the time you get to a +2 dagger, this is a worse option UNLESS your style is throwing weapons focused, then this is just brilliant as no one really wants to be throwing a magic dagger and then have to track down where it ended up. I'd almost like the ability to use your Intelligence modifier for Psychic Blade attacks just so you can use your Intelligence as your primary stat.
Psionic Enhancement: I like the fact that you have to choose your skill set for the day. and the 3 skills are nice, although 2 out of 3 are combat related.
Terrifying Blade: A fun new effect that can be essentially stacked on a target to keep them afraid. Frightened is a combat ability, and throwing the knife is an attack, so no using this out of combat, still throwing psychic blades from 15 ft away that prevent the target from moving closer to you? MUHAHAHAAH
Psychic Veil: and at level 13 we get something exploration based. But man is it a doozy. On demand Invisibility. <slight spoiler> My Rogue in TOA managed to wrangle the ability to turn invisible at will. I can tell you it was absolutely nuts. Even with a limitation of up to 5 times per Long Rest this is still packing some serious usefulness.
Rend Mind: an incredibly powerful ability for an opening move or just in general. But I feel like it would be better to extend the stun to the 'End of the rogues turn' so they can take advantage of their own ability to do a backstab rather than spamming the skill.
Crutch,
Mike Mearls went on record a year ago as saying that WotC is concerned that any system other than Spell Slots would:
A) be too confusing for newer players and therefore be a barrier to entry into the hobby, and
B) be too complicated for DMs to juggle along with traditional magic and monster abilities and therefore they would prohibit its use at the table.
Combined, those two factors would mean they don’t get our money. I think WotC and Mr. Mearls are underestimating the D&D community and frankly I feel a little patronized.
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Unless the change the lore for the setting entirely, there shouldn’t be any Sorcerers in Dark Sun. If there had been intrinsic magic then the Defilers wouldn’t have raped the planet in the first place. That is the basis for my personal objection to the Aberrant Mind.
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So I'm seeing that people's grievance with these is that it means the Mystic is dead... where did they say the Mystic was dead? Did I miss something? Last time we saw the Soul Knife and Psionic Wizard was in the Happy Fun Hour and they were being developed along side a revamped Mystic that was not horribly broken and more refined as a summoner/full Int caster that uses concentration cantrips to alter their spells.
As for Psionics being their own separate mechanic. We already have a point based system for spells in the DMG, just use that? I came into DnD late so I am not precious with the passed editions and mechanics and thus don't really see the problem with Psionics just being a separate form of magic. They are just two ways to draw power from/interact with the weave.
Yeah lame. Also ironic given:
a) points per ability out of a pool is more intuitive to say, someone coming in from videogames since mana/energy bars are by far the most common way of implementing special abilities there. Spell slots are a remnant of teh vancian system, which is counter-intuitive and also lame as hell. That last may be my opinion but I do recall I actively resented spell slots before I fully understood them and it was a factor delaying my entry into DnD. It also factored into why when I did toy with the idea of picking it up I immediately gravitated towards the more esoteric options, like psions. Magic, but only if you do your homework and psedo-chemistry first, is the antithesis of having fantastical abilities to begin with.
b) they're never going to control the home games, but they do control AL and it seems that's what they're banking on more. Sure there's published stuff they disallowed like aarakocra, but if they do conform it to AL, it can't be disallowed there. Also, every sourcebook contains so much more than just a class. So even if people hate the class, they still have to buy the book for the other stuff.
I'm worried not just because they're releasing more psionic subclasses, but because a lot of the new spells are using recycled names from the mystic doc. That indicates more strongly that there won't be a mystic or equivalent.
As for psionics, yes they should be different. Still magic, but a different form of magic. I'm partial to the Far Realm influence myself, but since they exist within the multiverse they've adapted to interact (and be interacted) with regular magic. I'd say mages that have encountered and studied psionics can tailor their counterspells to disrupt psionic abilities, and likewise, psions have developed disruption abilities of their own to counter spellcasters (since spells begin with the will to cast them). Dispelling and anti-magic fields are a little trickier but for the most part I'd still lean towards equivalency.
Davavor,
On the Happy Fun Hour Mearls explicitly stated they were scraping the Mystic and replacing it with the Psion. The last time anyone heard about the Psion was in the Happy Fun Hour last November. After the way they changed the Artificer to bring it more in line with the rest of D&D’s magic users we are all (at least I am) just assuming that Psion is now dead too.
I came to D&D in the early ‘90’s and then jumped into AD&D soon afterward. I did play a Psionicist (precursors to the now defunct Mystics) and even I don’t have a problem with Psionics being treated as “Magic” so long as it does not employ “Spells” or “Spell Slots” as Psionics represents a direct mental manipulation of the universe without the need for contrivances such as spells. That is why people want a different mechanic to represent the Feature.
Unfortunately the Point System lends itself too easily for abuse. With the point system a caster could use a nearly limitless supply of lower level effects, or just have a bunch of everything at max power effects. Think about a Coffeelock (Sorcerer/Tome Warlock combo) without som of the extra stuff but also without the trouble of having to multiclass and without the need for the gimmick so there’s never any exhaustion. Either everything at level 9 all the time, or so many lower level effects they would never run out. How many people have you heard complain about that? Now multiply the problem X2.
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The direction that Mike Mearls was going was super promising AND fit into the magic system as it exists already. The concept of using concentration cantrips only available to the Psion to alter the effects of spells was a pretty unique idea and something that set it apart from the other classes. I see no reason why they would scrap it, in fact, these UAs only further bolster my hopes that it is on the way. The last time we saw anything to do with Psionics was last November, including the Wizard we just got (in fact, wasn't it the thing Mike was working on when HFH went dark?). At the rate that we are getting UA recently they are clearly gearing up for something and I see no evidence that they are stopping any time soon. We'll probably be getting another batch of Psionic subclasses in the coming weeks and, if we are lucky, a sneak peak at the new and improved Psion. I guess I am more just questioning the overall doom and gloom of the community over this UA which is, in my opinion, pretty solid. There is definite room for improvement and some scaling issues that need to be fixed... but I get to play as a Sith, Psylocke, AND a psychic manipulation wizard? Sign me up.
And the Mystic needed to die. I have one in my campaign and, while it has led to some amazing moments, it is clearly far too powerful. I'm glad they are throwing some of the mechanics from it into these new UAs though. I hope they take all of the Wu Jen stuff and give it to a variant to the Way of the Four Elements Monk because that stuff would fit perfectly into the Ki system.
Cricket,
Yes, Vanican magic sucks @ss and always has. It used to be worse. Back in the day a “Magic User” (there were only three classes of Magic User Arcane, Divine, and Elf; yes you read that correctly, back then Race and Class took up the same space on the sheet so you were either a human with a class or a “Demihuman” [talk about intrinsic racism!]) where was I? Oh yes, Back in the day a Magic User had to memorize each Spell Slot individually. Imagine your Wizard having to dedicate each Spell Slot to a specific Spell Every morning (once per Long Rest) without any of the following: Cantrips, Spellcasting Focus, Ritual Casting, Arcane Recovery, ASIs/Feats, Spell Mastery, or Signature Spells. They had a D4 hit die, and when you “Specialized in a School” (Arcane Tradition) it meant you could not cast any Spells from certain other schools according to a little wheel diagram in the book. Oh, and you had quadrupole the EXP requirement/level of the fighter because each class had its own individual experience/level scale.
And there was no multiclassing or backgrounds to help with any of that.
Then the Psionicist hit and it was like a 5e Sorlock showing up to the same game. That is a major reason people will ALWAYS say “Psionics is broken/OP!” even now, what..? around 30 years later. That was just my experience, and there are people who played back in the 1st Edition. (Before my time, I’m not that old. 😉) AD&D fixed things a lot. 5e is thankfully based off of AD&D rather than OD&D or else you would still only be able to choose Race or Class.
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Apart from the Immortal options and mixing those in with some of the other disciplines, I'm not sure where this alleged overpoweredness comes from. Though on the other hand, the worst of these options are those that probably shouldn't be psionic to begin with. What does psi have to do with growing/shrinking, stacking temps indefinitely or straight up replicating spells?
But again, they threw everything they could think of into the mystic. What it should be is a core psion with Awakened, Nomad and maybe one other subclass. Wu Jen should be a monk subclass, Soul Knife a rogue subclass and Immortal split between barbarian and druid. Or something. I can't recall all the disciplines. They also need to figure the equivalent of 6-9th level psionics. Extra concentration does not suffice as a feature for levels 10-20 and it's a downright travesty that bards can cause more mind screwery with the likes of Modify Memory and Geas than the designated psychic. Level 15 Psion should be able to go full Psi Corps, level 20 should be Prof Xavier.
Disciplines should also have been refined.
Yeah I had heard some of that. That's why I still sometimes get the urge to cringe if I hear "prepared spell slot" without warning.
Soulknife basically already exists though, the shadow blade spell with an arcane trickster rogue is pretty much this, and the damage does more on a hit than the Soulknife. I do like the flavor, but it needs to be more different.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
CrutchCricket:
You may not believe that the Mystic was overpowered, but it was widely understood as far too powerful by the community. There is a reason the haven’t revisited it.
5d8 at level 5 is actually an average maximum (of 40 as seen by being close to the “Fireball” spell which is 48 and has been explicitly stated by WotC as the most overpowered spell in the game) and a slightly below average, average spell damage (of 25 as per standard average calculations) so the fact it is unavoidable is overpowered. And WotC doesnt even balance the spells they make to the rules in the DMG because they are over-tuned.
And another thing. A large amount of the player base, specifically older players, think that the Sorcerer doesnt have enough that differentiates it from Wizard (because they very clearly favored certain classes but thats another argument). Bard are not chosen for their spell casting; Bards are the magical skill monkeys of the game, whereas Rouges are the Martial Skill monkeys. The only real difference between Arcane and Divine magic is mostly flavor yes, but there is no class, that parallels the massive pool of buffs heals and role versatility of the Cleric.
you are looking at everything in black and white. There is a lot more depth to each class that you are giving it credit for, but a new type of damage dealing magical class is unnecessary. We have enough magical classes that are designed for disruption in the Druid, Bard and Cleric. And while you may be right, a magical crafting class may be unnecessary, the Artificer class was more of a fix to a really uninspired crafting system in the game what so ever, magic aside
There is no Niche that these versions of the mystic fill, that isnt already covered at least twice by the 13 classes now in the game.
Davavor,
I hope you’re right. Mearls’ work was uniqe and different and refreshing. That’s exactly why I think it won’t get used. After what happened to the Artificer though, I have this sinking feeling in my chest.* I’m expecting that the Psion will get the same treatment when it comes out, because to me they might as well not even bother at that point. Go back and watch the last 8-10 episodes of Happy Fun Hour and you will expressly hear Mearls explain the logic behind why WotC is scared to use anything other than Spell Slots. Sure, the Psion Could use the same Point System presented one the DMG, but so could everyone else and nobody does because it’s locked away in the DMG that’s really mostly useful for newer DMs and the Magic Items/Treasure Hordes sections. If WotC doesn’t put it in the new book, nobody will use it. Also, on HFH Mearls explained why Sorcerers don’t make sense on Dark Sun and why they wouldn’t be getting a Psionic Subclass. He basically took the words right out of my mouth. What are we getting? Oh look a psionic Sorcerer is coming out soon. 🙄
*The OG Artificer was just as radical as the Psionicist, but without the balance problems. The Artificer was originally designed to produce “Spell-like Effects” through the use of magically infused machines/devices instead of actually “Casting Spells” (sound familiar?) They used to only Know/be able to Cast a small handful of spells which were all that was needed to craft their devices. Their entire system for manipulating The Weave was completely unique to them.
Now it has become a watered down caster that has ended up making nobody happy. (Just go look at those threads for proof.) The old heads are complaining that “It’s different than it used to be!” and the newer players are complaining about everything else. I belong to the third group who’s upset because we were looking forward to something different. We were hoping we would get a character Class that did “magic” and wouldn't “Spell Slots” to do it. They could have used almost any other system and I would have been happy. What we got was more of the same.
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