Sorry as a non-veteran player, I still struggle to understand the mechanical and narrative need for a whole new chassis. Once the Artificer came out, I immediately switched my next character concept from Wizard to it, because it fulfilled the "inventor" category that a Wizard just wasn't able to do. I struggle to think of a "Psionic" that wouldn't be fulfilled in a well designed subclass in each class. If I want to play Psylocke, a Psionic Monk or Rogue would work. If I want to play Eleven, a Psionic Sorcerer seems to be fine. If I want to play a Jedi, a Psionic Fighter would do it. I could be wrong, I don't know every single concept out there, but I think the reason we haven't seen the Psion pursued very aggressively is because it isn't as obvious of a need to players. It seems to be something you only really want if you knew about it beforehand. I didn't know about it until Mystic UA and now these.
So, as a veteran player just getting into 5E, I'll talk about this a bit!
First... Psionics are a 120 page supplement in 2E, and a 158 page supplement in 3E. Psionics - as presented in UA - are just a bit shorter than that. For comparison, a 2E PHB is 255 pages and a 3E is 258 plus a few extra pages with a survival guide of condensed rules. So, you're going from half again the size of the player handbook to a handful of pages. And people are really confused by that, because Wizard sold a whole lot of Complete Psionics Handbook and Psionics Handbooks, and so it really doesn't make sense that they want to condense that to the size of a DM screen.
Beyond that, Psionics had 50 unique abilities in 1E (my source for that is a 2E handbook saying it, I don't have a 1E anymore to look at unless someone has a time machine so I can go back to when 2E came out and not sell the 1E off). It has over 150 in 2E, and 3E was about the same. In 1E, it's a feature that can be added to any character - but in 2E, it was its own class (and then Dark Sun brought back the feature for all characters). These abilities were spell like abilities - which is the direction Wizards is currently going with it - in 1E, however they were proficiency checks in 2E and 3E. 2E used one class (Psion), 3E uses two (Psion, Psychic Warrior).
Now this is all technical stuff - however, the fact is, Psion plays more like a rogue than a caster - and indeed, TSR says its a separate archetype, but... that sure looks like the Rogue table with WIS instead of DEX to me. ;) Just saying
So anyway - there's that half of it.
The other half of it is world building. The 2E Psionics handbook was released in 1991, and revised rules that had been there forever at that point. 3E barely touched Psion at all, except to add in 3E mechanics. I think Psionic Warrior would translate extremely well to a monk subclass, and I don't think anyone would notice that from a world building standpoint in their campaign. Psionic Warrior basically is a monk anyway.
The issue is Psion never really played like a caster after 1E. 1E was the last time it played like a caster and, frankly, in 1E it was God mode. 2E and 3E got it better - however, I don't know that they can't make this strategy work. It's just a matter, you've got to get that feel closer to 2E or 3E's feel so that you don't break 30+ years of world building.
And right now, it literally would be the first character class in 5E that was so radically different from 2E or 3E that characters don't directly translate. It really is. There are mechanic changes everywhere, there are balance changes everywhere - but most other characters still, despite that, come over and are recognizable. In particular if you were trying to use the old Dark Sun, etc. stuff - I would think it would be... problematic... to translate psions, and that's pretty much the only thing that would be problematic.
And so I'd like to see them go full on supplement here - and if they do go full-on supplement, there might be an advantage to throwing it into a base class versus a subclass. Mainly because we don't want some half assed broken system like 1E delivered. We saw where that got us, and so lets not do that again. I think the fact people are engaged in this and yelling about it is, in and of itself, a reason to look at the 2E and 3E rules and start with "why are we shifting from this?"
Because I suspect the answer it "because we can." And my concern is that is not a fantastic answer. I actually really like most of the 5E changes, and this is really the first proposed subclass where I was just scratching my head wondering "why on earth would Wizards do it this way?"
Sorry as a non-veteran player, I still struggle to understand the mechanical and narrative need for a whole new chassis. Once the Artificer came out, I immediately switched my next character concept from Wizard to it, because it fulfilled the "inventor" category that a Wizard just wasn't able to do. I struggle to think of a "Psionic" that wouldn't be fulfilled in a well designed subclass in each class. If I want to play Psylocke, a Psionic Monk or Rogue would work. If I want to play Eleven, a Psionic Sorcerer seems to be fine. If I want to play a Jedi, a Psionic Fighter would do it. I could be wrong, I don't know every single concept out there, but I think the reason we haven't seen the Psion pursued very aggressively is because it isn't as obvious of a need to players. It seems to be something you only really want if you knew about it beforehand. I didn't know about it until Mystic UA and now these.
So, as a veteran player just getting into 5E, I'll talk about this a bit!
First... Psionics are a 120 page supplement in 2E, and a 158 page supplement in 3E. Psionics - as presented in UA - are just a bit shorter than that. For comparison, a 2E PHB is 255 pages and a 3E is 258 plus a few extra pages with a survival guide of condensed rules. So, you're going from half again the size of the player handbook to a handful of pages. And people are really confused by that, because Wizard sold a whole lot of Complete Psionics Handbook and Psionics Handbooks, and so it really doesn't make sense that they want to condense that to the size of a DM screen.
Beyond that, Psionics had 50 unique abilities in 1E (my source for that is a 2E handbook saying it, I don't have a 1E anymore to look at unless someone has a time machine so I can go back to when 2E came out and not sell the 1E off). It has over 150 in 2E, and 3E was about the same. In 1E, it's a feature that can be added to any character - but in 2E, it was its own class (and then Dark Sun brought back the feature for all characters). These abilities were spell like abilities - which is the direction Wizards is currently going with it - in 1E, however they were proficiency checks in 2E and 3E. 2E used one class (Psion), 3E uses two (Psion, Psychic Warrior).
Now this is all technical stuff - however, the fact is, Psion plays more like a rogue than a caster - and indeed, TSR says its a separate archetype, but... that sure looks like the Rogue table with WIS instead of DEX to me. ;) Just saying
So anyway - there's that half of it.
The other half of it is world building. The 2E Psionics handbook was released in 1991, and revised rules that had been there forever at that point. 3E barely touched Psion at all, except to add in 3E mechanics. I think Psionic Warrior would translate extremely well to a monk subclass, and I don't think anyone would notice that from a world building standpoint in their campaign. Psionic Warrior basically is a monk anyway.
The issue is Psion never really played like a caster after 1E. 1E was the last time it played like a caster and, frankly, in 1E it was God mode. 2E and 3E got it better - however, I don't know that they can't make this strategy work. It's just a matter, you've got to get that feel closer to 2E or 3E's feel so that you don't break 30+ years of world building.
And right now, it literally would be the first character class in 5E that was so radically different from 2E or 3E that characters don't directly translate. It really is. There are mechanic changes everywhere, there are balance changes everywhere - but most other characters still, despite that, come over and are recognizable. In particular if you were trying to use the old Dark Sun, etc. stuff - I would think it would be... problematic... to translate psions, and that's pretty much the only thing that would be problematic.
And so I'd like to see them go full on supplement here - and if they do go full-on supplement, there might be an advantage to throwing it into a base class versus a subclass. Mainly because we don't want some half assed broken system like 1E delivered. We saw where that got us, and so lets not do that again. I think the fact people are engaged in this and yelling about it is, in and of itself, a reason to look at the 2E and 3E rules and start with "why are we shifting from this?"
Because I suspect the answer it "because we can." And my concern is that is not a fantastic answer. I actually really like most of the 5E changes, and this is really the first proposed subclass where I was just scratching my head wondering "why on earth would Wizards do it this way?"
This. All of the this, with some of this on top, and a large side of this. And a liter of this in the cup holder.
I wouldn't mind seeing what they could do with a full psion class. Its also not something I'm personally in love with but if this and a couple other forums are an indicator there is a pretty solid group in there that would just die if a suitable psion class became reality.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I wouldn't mind seeing what they could do with a full psion class. Its also not something I'm personally in love with but if this and a couple other forums are an indicator there is a pretty solid group in there that would just die if a suitable psion class became reality.
I would absolutely LOVE it if we got a real Psionicist. 💕
Pretty sad to see the Aberrant Mind change to the Psychic Soul and all the ways they toned down the Cosmic horror fluff for the subclass. A powerful psychic sorcerer having a passive field of protection was really cool and i wish they would work "Warped Being" back in, even if you needed to use the Psi Dice.
Not to mention losing cool spells like "Psionic Blast" and "Id Insinuation," i hope they rework those later also.
Maybe i'm just looking for something different, I was pretty happy there was a class other than warlock that could get weird and cosmic even if it wasn't pure psionics.
I also agree, I enjoyed some of the specific lore and features of lots of this UA, and it seemed to get toned down. Aberrant Mind I enjoyed a lot more because its narrative was so rich. In the same way, I liked the path they were taking with the Revived Rogue. This new one seems like an evil option found in the DMG like the Oathbreaker. The Revived seemed really cool, relying on your past lives for guidance.
Not because of the necromancy, but more that it seems like a serial killer narratively. Keeping the eternal souls of the people you kill and using them for your benefit seems evil to me, but maybe I'm wrong.
Tokens of the Departed doesn't capture the creature's soul. A lot of people got that impression though so they'll probably rename "soul trinkets" to something else.
Not because of the necromancy, but more that it seems like a serial killer narratively. Keeping the eternal souls of the people you kill and using them for your benefit seems evil to me, but maybe I'm wrong.
I honestly can see it going that way or a less creepy way. Someone pointed out that the little memento mori might not be their actual soul, but rather just a bit of their life force. So sure, you can be a serial killer collecting trophies of your kills, or you could be someone trying to save a little bit of people whose lives you couldn't protect. You can be the haunted detective who solves crimes with the help of ghosts who remind you of your failures, or you could be that insane killer who gets a thrill from keeping a bit of your kills to torment.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
It's probably not even that. The devs compared it to the "animating spirit" mentioned in Speak With Dead, which allows you to interrogate the corpse despite the soul not being there. It's more like a memory of its former life.
Yes, it's like that in mechanics, but the trinket just seems murdery.
It's no more "murdery" than Soul Cage or the Hexblade Warlock's Accursed Specter is. Just because I have the feature doesn't mean I'm going to go around killing innocents to fuel it.
Yes, it's like that in mechanics, but the trinket just seems murdery.
It's no more "murdery" than Soul Cage or the Hexblade Warlock's Accursed Specter is. Just because I have the feature doesn't mean I'm going to go around killing innocents to fuel it.
It is more murdury, in my opinion, because you're collecting trinkets that are a part of a slain creature's soul, you can use those to fuel your magical powers, and can force the person who you killed to come back and talk to you.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Yes, it's like that in mechanics, but the trinket just seems murdery.
It's no more "murdery" than Soul Cage or the Hexblade Warlock's Accursed Specter is. Just because I have the feature doesn't mean I'm going to go around killing innocents to fuel it.
It is more murdury, in my opinion, because you're collecting trinkets that are a part of a slain creature's soul, you can use those to fuel your magical powers, and can force the person who you killed to come back and talk to you.
Soul Cage traps the person's soul in a tiny silver cage where you can force it to talk to you and drain energy from it until it's spent, kinda like a soul coin but the soul goes free instead of being annihilated. And RAW, there's no limit to the number of souls you can trap in the cage. Accursed Specter turns the person's essence into your undead slave. I don't even want to get into the ethical complexity of exploiting trinkets taken from people who meant you harm in life, especially since those individuals are probably headed for an eternal afterlife of torment in the Lower Planes anyway.
IDK why, but I still feel like the Soul Trinket is worse. Maybe it's the fact that everyone who takes the subclass will eventually get it if they survive that long, or that it's a rogue subclass that gets this, which makes it even more murdery.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Nice @LeviRocks, I also am better at writing and I also write in persuasive and argumentative styles.
So, as a veteran player just getting into 5E, I'll talk about this a bit!
First... Psionics are a 120 page supplement in 2E, and a 158 page supplement in 3E. Psionics - as presented in UA - are just a bit shorter than that. For comparison, a 2E PHB is 255 pages and a 3E is 258 plus a few extra pages with a survival guide of condensed rules. So, you're going from half again the size of the player handbook to a handful of pages. And people are really confused by that, because Wizard sold a whole lot of Complete Psionics Handbook and Psionics Handbooks, and so it really doesn't make sense that they want to condense that to the size of a DM screen.
Beyond that, Psionics had 50 unique abilities in 1E (my source for that is a 2E handbook saying it, I don't have a 1E anymore to look at unless someone has a time machine so I can go back to when 2E came out and not sell the 1E off). It has over 150 in 2E, and 3E was about the same. In 1E, it's a feature that can be added to any character - but in 2E, it was its own class (and then Dark Sun brought back the feature for all characters). These abilities were spell like abilities - which is the direction Wizards is currently going with it - in 1E, however they were proficiency checks in 2E and 3E. 2E used one class (Psion), 3E uses two (Psion, Psychic Warrior).
Now this is all technical stuff - however, the fact is, Psion plays more like a rogue than a caster - and indeed, TSR says its a separate archetype, but... that sure looks like the Rogue table with WIS instead of DEX to me. ;) Just saying
So anyway - there's that half of it.
The other half of it is world building. The 2E Psionics handbook was released in 1991, and revised rules that had been there forever at that point. 3E barely touched Psion at all, except to add in 3E mechanics. I think Psionic Warrior would translate extremely well to a monk subclass, and I don't think anyone would notice that from a world building standpoint in their campaign. Psionic Warrior basically is a monk anyway.
The issue is Psion never really played like a caster after 1E. 1E was the last time it played like a caster and, frankly, in 1E it was God mode. 2E and 3E got it better - however, I don't know that they can't make this strategy work. It's just a matter, you've got to get that feel closer to 2E or 3E's feel so that you don't break 30+ years of world building.
And right now, it literally would be the first character class in 5E that was so radically different from 2E or 3E that characters don't directly translate. It really is. There are mechanic changes everywhere, there are balance changes everywhere - but most other characters still, despite that, come over and are recognizable. In particular if you were trying to use the old Dark Sun, etc. stuff - I would think it would be... problematic... to translate psions, and that's pretty much the only thing that would be problematic.
And so I'd like to see them go full on supplement here - and if they do go full-on supplement, there might be an advantage to throwing it into a base class versus a subclass. Mainly because we don't want some half assed broken system like 1E delivered. We saw where that got us, and so lets not do that again. I think the fact people are engaged in this and yelling about it is, in and of itself, a reason to look at the 2E and 3E rules and start with "why are we shifting from this?"
Because I suspect the answer it "because we can." And my concern is that is not a fantastic answer. I actually really like most of the 5E changes, and this is really the first proposed subclass where I was just scratching my head wondering "why on earth would Wizards do it this way?"
This. All of the this, with some of this on top, and a large side of this. And a liter of this in the cup holder.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I just want a galldarn liter of COLA!
I wouldn't mind seeing what they could do with a full psion class. Its also not something I'm personally in love with but if this and a couple other forums are an indicator there is a pretty solid group in there that would just die if a suitable psion class became reality.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I would absolutely LOVE it if we got a real Psionicist. 💕
(And why don’t you just order a large Farva?)
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Pretty sad to see the Aberrant Mind change to the Psychic Soul and all the ways they toned down the Cosmic horror fluff for the subclass. A powerful psychic sorcerer having a passive field of protection was really cool and i wish they would work "Warped Being" back in, even if you needed to use the Psi Dice.
Not to mention losing cool spells like "Psionic Blast" and "Id Insinuation," i hope they rework those later also.
Maybe i'm just looking for something different, I was pretty happy there was a class other than warlock that could get weird and cosmic even if it wasn't pure psionics.
I agree. It sucks that they changed so much to no longer be good.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I also agree, I enjoyed some of the specific lore and features of lots of this UA, and it seemed to get toned down. Aberrant Mind I enjoyed a lot more because its narrative was so rich. In the same way, I liked the path they were taking with the Revived Rogue. This new one seems like an evil option found in the DMG like the Oathbreaker. The Revived seemed really cool, relying on your past lives for guidance.
What exactly is evil about it? Because it has an element of necromancy?
Not because of the necromancy, but more that it seems like a serial killer narratively. Keeping the eternal souls of the people you kill and using them for your benefit seems evil to me, but maybe I'm wrong.
It definitely seems more "morally gray-black"
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Tokens of the Departed doesn't capture the creature's soul. A lot of people got that impression though so they'll probably rename "soul trinkets" to something else.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I honestly can see it going that way or a less creepy way. Someone pointed out that the little memento mori might not be their actual soul, but rather just a bit of their life force. So sure, you can be a serial killer collecting trophies of your kills, or you could be someone trying to save a little bit of people whose lives you couldn't protect. You can be the haunted detective who solves crimes with the help of ghosts who remind you of your failures, or you could be that insane killer who gets a thrill from keeping a bit of your kills to torment.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
It doesn't capture their whole soul, but it is a part of their soul. It's still very murdery, whether or not it captures their whole soul.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
It's probably not even that. The devs compared it to the "animating spirit" mentioned in Speak With Dead, which allows you to interrogate the corpse despite the soul not being there. It's more like a memory of its former life.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Yes, it's like that in mechanics, but the trinket just seems murdery.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
It's no more "murdery" than Soul Cage or the Hexblade Warlock's Accursed Specter is. Just because I have the feature doesn't mean I'm going to go around killing innocents to fuel it.
It is more murdury, in my opinion, because you're collecting trinkets that are a part of a slain creature's soul, you can use those to fuel your magical powers, and can force the person who you killed to come back and talk to you.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Soul Cage traps the person's soul in a tiny silver cage where you can force it to talk to you and drain energy from it until it's spent, kinda like a soul coin but the soul goes free instead of being annihilated. And RAW, there's no limit to the number of souls you can trap in the cage. Accursed Specter turns the person's essence into your undead slave. I don't even want to get into the ethical complexity of exploiting trinkets taken from people who meant you harm in life, especially since those individuals are probably headed for an eternal afterlife of torment in the Lower Planes anyway.
IDK why, but I still feel like the Soul Trinket is worse. Maybe it's the fact that everyone who takes the subclass will eventually get it if they survive that long, or that it's a rogue subclass that gets this, which makes it even more murdery.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms