I bet this happens pretty often. You have a character concept in mind, and you've figured out which classes and features would make it shine, but the wording and aesthetics of the class just do NOT fit the character in your head at all. What is it for you?
For me, I keep running into the hexblade. Every other character I brainstorm is some form of "martial character with good spellcasting". Hexblade naturally fills that out and avoids some common mechanical issues with that style of character. Buuuut, every feature and spell of the warlock class screams "edgelord cthulhu" at every given opportunity. Yes, you can reflavor things to fit your concept better, but it's a bit annoying when you have to do it for everything.
I'm doing something like that with a rune knight right now. I ditched the whole "magic giant runes" completely and instead have the runes (taught to him by a hag) acting as a way to limit his natural abilities as they emerge, before an eventual multiclass into sorcerer which will reflect him learning to control those powers better.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Artificer is sort of this for me? I kind of like specifically its infusions that it can work into items to support themselves or their party. But I'm not all that personally interested in the flavor of artificer. (I think the class is fine it's just not my cup of tea, so to speak.) If I ever played an artificer I might reflavor it to more of an enchanter than a tinkerer.
Usually its the other way around for me, where a subclass has great flavor but its mechanics dont reflect that flavor very well.
That being said, I think I agree with you about alot of stuff for warlock. The various subclasses, invocations, spells, and pact options give this class a ton of versatility but some of those things also seem to be flavored to specifically fit the type of warlock that serves a demon lord or eldritch horror. Im not really gonna knock warlock stuff for being that way, since those kinds of pacts are the class's bread and butter
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Usually its the other way around for me, where a subclass has great flavor but its mechanics dont reflect that flavor very well.
That being said, I think I agree with you about alot of stuff for warlock. The various subclasses, invocations, spells, and pact options give this class a ton of versatility but some of those things also seem to be flavored to specifically fit the type of warlock that serves a demon lord or eldritch horror. Im not really gonna knock warlock stuff for being that way, since those kinds of pacts are the class's bread and butter
Similar for me as well. Generally it's the flavor of the subclass that draws me to it in the first place, and if something is going to disappoint me it's likely the implementation of the mechanics rather than the flavor.
Some of the invocations definitely seem themed after certain patron. Devil's Sight for example. Gift of the depths oddly enough fits the flavor of the Fathomless perfectly but is mostly redundant if you actually took that patron. THankfully though individual invocations are generally easy enough to reflavor compared to a whole subclass.
Yes, you can reflavor things to fit your concept better, but it's a bit annoying when you have to do it for everything.
Considering the alternative is having a million classes and/or subclasses (well, unhyperbolically let's say twice as many as we have now at least), the reflavoring is kind of internalized to me. To me it's not annoying, it's an opportunity to be creative and have a bit of fun. I don't want to tell you to just change your opinion, but maybe try to have a slightly different outlook on things? D&D is, for better or worse, class-based and presumably always will be (it's a defining feature IMO) so this is something that's inherent to the system.
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I like the Aberrant Mind sorcerer a lot, but don't generally go for the Lovecraftian eldritch horror type of psionic. Happily, you can trade out those tentacle spells and just be a non-edgy psion.
I think reflavoring of Rage is pretty common. The default "Hulk Smash" barb is a fun trope, but it can be cool to play around with Rage as a battle trance or extreme focus or spirit possession or whatever.
I like the Drake Warden ranger subclass a lot, but I don't like that the drake is basically a summon rather than an animal companion. So I say he's always there in the background, but he only fights when I throw him a special treat that corresponds with whatever element I'm choosing for his damage type.
I don't dislike the default flavor of the Echo Knight, but it has so much fun potential for other takes. You could have a ghost companion, you could be a set of twins with a curse that forces one to always be in the ethereal plane, you could be an illusionist or a puppeteer, etc.
I like the Aberrant Mind sorcerer a lot, but don't generally go for the Lovecraftian eldritch horror type of psionic. Happily, you can trade out those tentacle spells and just be a non-edgy psion.
I think reflavoring of Rage is pretty common. The default "Hulk Smash" barb is a fun trope, but it can be cool to play around with Rage as a battle trance or extreme focus or spirit possession or whatever.
I like the Drake Warden ranger subclass a lot, but I don't like that the drake is basically a summon rather than an animal companion. So I say he's always there in the background, but he only fights when I throw him a special treat that corresponds with whatever element I'm choosing for his damage type.
I don't dislike the default flavor of the Echo Knight, but it has so much fun potential for other takes. You could have a ghost companion, you could be a set of twins with a curse that forces one to always be in the ethereal plane, you could be an illusionist or a puppeteer, etc.
I've always wanted design a puppeteer subclass (maybe for artificer or rogue) but I cannot believe that I have never thought of this use of Echo Knight. Thats fantastic
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The entire Bard class. I love their rules and abilities, and that they're a full caster who isn't focused exclusively on spells, but I hate that everything is so tied to being a performer and a musician.
The entire Bard class. I love their rules and abilities, and that they're a full caster who isn't focused exclusively on spells, but I hate that everything is so tied to being a performer and a musician.
My shaman-built-on-the-bard-class just "invokes the ancestral spirits" by "intoning prayers" and "sounding the chimes". I don't think being a performer is so intrinsic to the bard class necessarily.
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I don't like most of the Paladin Oaths for flavour with the notable exception of Ancients. I do like the mechanics of Redemption, in particular, but I don't like the Oath (though it's not my least favourite by a long shot).
The entire Bard class. I love their rules and abilities, and that they're a full caster who isn't focused exclusively on spells, but I hate that everything is so tied to being a performer and a musician.
Ha. That's 90% of what draws me to Bard first and foremost amongst the classes. That said, I don't have issues with the fact that some of the subclasses downplay that. Spirits and Swords Bards even have the option of using a different (non-musical) focus.
Ancients is my favorite paladin oath too for flavor. Something about its tenets and the naturey spin on its subclass abilities just draws me in a lot more than the other oaths.
I just realized Oath of the Ancients is mechanically a good choice for my mounted combat focused Paladin, since many of the subclass spell list can be used effectively with Find Steed's ability to include your mount in single-target spells, such as Misty Step, Protection from Energy, and Stoneskin. Also Aura of Warding will help my mount stay alive. But I was not planning to go for a tree hugger paladin. Oh well. I can lean into it.
The entire Bard class. I love their rules and abilities, and that they're a full caster who isn't focused exclusively on spells, but I hate that everything is so tied to being a performer and a musician.
You're speaking to my soul here, Karl.
Mechanically? I adore bards. I would be hard pressed to play anything but - they're a full-progression spellcaster with actual class features and an emphasis on skill mastery, they suit me down to my toes...except for the fact that all bards MUST be musical superstars, and all bard players MUST be Sam Riegel and able to crack out perfect witticisms and delightful song riffs at the literal drop of a hat.
I hate it. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it I hate it I hate it I hate it. Mechanically one of my absolute favorite classes in the entire game, and I will never be able to play one because I'm not an expert performer and entertainer in real life. Oh my GAWD I DETEST the bard's hyperfocus on musicality so, so much...
The entire Bard class. I love their rules and abilities, and that they're a full caster who isn't focused exclusively on spells, but I hate that everything is so tied to being a performer and a musician.
You're speaking to my soul here, Karl.
Mechanically? I adore bards. I would be hard pressed to play anything but - they're a full-progression spellcaster with actual class features and an emphasis on skill mastery, they suit me down to my toes...except for the fact that all bards MUST be musical superstars, and all bard players MUST be Sam Riegel and able to crack out perfect witticisms and delightful song riffs at the literal drop of a hat.
I hate it. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it I hate it I hate it I hate it. Mechanically one of my absolute favorite classes in the entire game, and I will never be able to play one because I'm not an expert performer and entertainer in real life. Oh my GAWD I DETEST the bard's hyperfocus on musicality so, so much...
Peoples, again, that's just some default flavoring. Bardic Inspiration, Song of Rest and Countercharm essentially just require those who benefit from them to hear the bard. If you want to flavour that as incoherent screeching, rotating a prayer wheel, the armpit alfabet, yelling the Words of Tone-deaf Power, reading aloud from Nanny Ogg's almanac or counting down from 997 using only prime numbers, go right ahead. It's fine.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
except for the fact that all bards MUST be musical superstars, and all bard players MUST be Sam Riegel and able to crack out perfect witticisms and delightful song riffs at the literal drop of a hat.
I'm toying with a concept for a College of Spirits bard -- so far only as an NPC, but I'm trying to figure out how to make it viable as a PC -- that doesn't even have a voice. They're a warforged who is essentially a fortune teller-in-a-cabinet a la Zoltar from Big, just without the cabinet, and they can only "talk" via small written cards that pop out of a slot in their chest.
I imagine the "verbal" components of their spells would just be a specific series of whirrs and clanks from their inner workings.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The entire Bard class. I love their rules and abilities, and that they're a full caster who isn't focused exclusively on spells, but I hate that everything is so tied to being a performer and a musician.
Totally agree. I hate the idea of whipping out a musical instrument or shouting encouraging inspiration in fights. It actually harms my immersion to have to imagine that kind of thing, and makes no sense.
My shaman-built-on-the-bard-class just "invokes the ancestral spirits" by "intoning prayers" and "sounding the chimes". I don't think being a performer is so intrinsic to the bard class necessarily.
This is so much better than the way bards are set up. I can get on board with a spirit drum beating shaman, in a way I can't with a jaunty tune on a lute.
This thread got me thinking about other ways to reskin a bard.
A tall, gaunt man wearing long, tattered robes. Pale skinned, bald headed with sunken eyes, he begins to incant a funeral dirge. The sound of it shakes the stone walls around him, and his allies know that he sings of the deaths of their enemies, gaining inspiration.
A lithe, acrobatic fire genasi twists and turns as she cartwheels across the floor. The Dance of the Ever Flame is woven, forming the shapes of long-forgotten magical runes as she lets out a warbling, ear-tearing battle scream. Her movements flow one into the next, until she appears to be in several places at once, mesmerising her enemies.
A mountain dwarf prostrates herself against the earth, driving out a low, elemental drone from the back of her throat. The sound tremors all around her, shaking the world with her magic.
An aasimar rises up slightly from the ground and emits a sonic screech, creating silence as the sounds rips out to absorb and draw in all sound around it. As her unhearable, banshee-like wail rings out, the air distorts in rippling pools creating hypnotic patterns all around her, baffling the enemy.
This talk about bards reminds me of a relatively new Actual Play series, Belkinus Necrohunt. I'm not fully caught up on the series, but one of the players is a Bard, but he dresses like a wizard and isn't a musician. He roleplays it as being an orator, and Bardic Inspiration is often delivered by giving tactical advice rather than inspiring music or a compliment or whatever is more common with bards.
I think the theme of bards should encompass any kind of performer, not just musicians. You should be able to play an actor bard, a poet bard, and stand-up comic bard, even a dance bard, although I don't know how the last fits with the requirement that you be able to hear for bardic inspiration. You could request your DM allow a homebrew that they have to see you instead.
I bet this happens pretty often. You have a character concept in mind, and you've figured out which classes and features would make it shine, but the wording and aesthetics of the class just do NOT fit the character in your head at all. What is it for you?
For me, I keep running into the hexblade. Every other character I brainstorm is some form of "martial character with good spellcasting". Hexblade naturally fills that out and avoids some common mechanical issues with that style of character. Buuuut, every feature and spell of the warlock class screams "edgelord cthulhu" at every given opportunity. Yes, you can reflavor things to fit your concept better, but it's a bit annoying when you have to do it for everything.
I'm doing something like that with a rune knight right now. I ditched the whole "magic giant runes" completely and instead have the runes (taught to him by a hag) acting as a way to limit his natural abilities as they emerge, before an eventual multiclass into sorcerer which will reflect him learning to control those powers better.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Artificer is sort of this for me? I kind of like specifically its infusions that it can work into items to support themselves or their party. But I'm not all that personally interested in the flavor of artificer. (I think the class is fine it's just not my cup of tea, so to speak.) If I ever played an artificer I might reflavor it to more of an enchanter than a tinkerer.
Usually its the other way around for me, where a subclass has great flavor but its mechanics dont reflect that flavor very well.
That being said, I think I agree with you about alot of stuff for warlock. The various subclasses, invocations, spells, and pact options give this class a ton of versatility but some of those things also seem to be flavored to specifically fit the type of warlock that serves a demon lord or eldritch horror. Im not really gonna knock warlock stuff for being that way, since those kinds of pacts are the class's bread and butter
Four-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Similar for me as well. Generally it's the flavor of the subclass that draws me to it in the first place, and if something is going to disappoint me it's likely the implementation of the mechanics rather than the flavor.
Some of the invocations definitely seem themed after certain patron. Devil's Sight for example. Gift of the depths oddly enough fits the flavor of the Fathomless perfectly but is mostly redundant if you actually took that patron. THankfully though individual invocations are generally easy enough to reflavor compared to a whole subclass.
Considering the alternative is having a million classes and/or subclasses (well, unhyperbolically let's say twice as many as we have now at least), the reflavoring is kind of internalized to me. To me it's not annoying, it's an opportunity to be creative and have a bit of fun. I don't want to tell you to just change your opinion, but maybe try to have a slightly different outlook on things? D&D is, for better or worse, class-based and presumably always will be (it's a defining feature IMO) so this is something that's inherent to the system.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I like the Aberrant Mind sorcerer a lot, but don't generally go for the Lovecraftian eldritch horror type of psionic. Happily, you can trade out those tentacle spells and just be a non-edgy psion.
I think reflavoring of Rage is pretty common. The default "Hulk Smash" barb is a fun trope, but it can be cool to play around with Rage as a battle trance or extreme focus or spirit possession or whatever.
I like the Drake Warden ranger subclass a lot, but I don't like that the drake is basically a summon rather than an animal companion. So I say he's always there in the background, but he only fights when I throw him a special treat that corresponds with whatever element I'm choosing for his damage type.
I don't dislike the default flavor of the Echo Knight, but it has so much fun potential for other takes. You could have a ghost companion, you could be a set of twins with a curse that forces one to always be in the ethereal plane, you could be an illusionist or a puppeteer, etc.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I've always wanted design a puppeteer subclass (maybe for artificer or rogue) but I cannot believe that I have never thought of this use of Echo Knight. Thats fantastic
Four-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
The entire Bard class. I love their rules and abilities, and that they're a full caster who isn't focused exclusively on spells, but I hate that everything is so tied to being a performer and a musician.
My shaman-built-on-the-bard-class just "invokes the ancestral spirits" by "intoning prayers" and "sounding the chimes". I don't think being a performer is so intrinsic to the bard class necessarily.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Ancients is my favorite paladin oath too for flavor. Something about its tenets and the naturey spin on its subclass abilities just draws me in a lot more than the other oaths.
I just realized Oath of the Ancients is mechanically a good choice for my mounted combat focused Paladin, since many of the subclass spell list can be used effectively with Find Steed's ability to include your mount in single-target spells, such as Misty Step, Protection from Energy, and Stoneskin. Also Aura of Warding will help my mount stay alive. But I was not planning to go for a tree hugger paladin. Oh well. I can lean into it.
You're speaking to my soul here, Karl.
Mechanically? I adore bards. I would be hard pressed to play anything but - they're a full-progression spellcaster with actual class features and an emphasis on skill mastery, they suit me down to my toes...except for the fact that all bards MUST be musical superstars, and all bard players MUST be Sam Riegel and able to crack out perfect witticisms and delightful song riffs at the literal drop of a hat.
I hate it. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it I hate it I hate it I hate it. Mechanically one of my absolute favorite classes in the entire game, and I will never be able to play one because I'm not an expert performer and entertainer in real life. Oh my GAWD I DETEST the bard's hyperfocus on musicality so, so much...
Please do not contact or message me.
Peoples, again, that's just some default flavoring. Bardic Inspiration, Song of Rest and Countercharm essentially just require those who benefit from them to hear the bard. If you want to flavour that as incoherent screeching, rotating a prayer wheel, the armpit alfabet, yelling the Words of Tone-deaf Power, reading aloud from Nanny Ogg's almanac or counting down from 997 using only prime numbers, go right ahead. It's fine.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I'm toying with a concept for a College of Spirits bard -- so far only as an NPC, but I'm trying to figure out how to make it viable as a PC -- that doesn't even have a voice. They're a warforged who is essentially a fortune teller-in-a-cabinet a la Zoltar from Big, just without the cabinet, and they can only "talk" via small written cards that pop out of a slot in their chest.
I imagine the "verbal" components of their spells would just be a specific series of whirrs and clanks from their inner workings.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Totally agree. I hate the idea of whipping out a musical instrument or shouting encouraging inspiration in fights. It actually harms my immersion to have to imagine that kind of thing, and makes no sense.
This is so much better than the way bards are set up. I can get on board with a spirit drum beating shaman, in a way I can't with a jaunty tune on a lute.
This thread got me thinking about other ways to reskin a bard.
A tall, gaunt man wearing long, tattered robes. Pale skinned, bald headed with sunken eyes, he begins to incant a funeral dirge. The sound of it shakes the stone walls around him, and his allies know that he sings of the deaths of their enemies, gaining inspiration.
A lithe, acrobatic fire genasi twists and turns as she cartwheels across the floor. The Dance of the Ever Flame is woven, forming the shapes of long-forgotten magical runes as she lets out a warbling, ear-tearing battle scream. Her movements flow one into the next, until she appears to be in several places at once, mesmerising her enemies.
A mountain dwarf prostrates herself against the earth, driving out a low, elemental drone from the back of her throat. The sound tremors all around her, shaking the world with her magic.
An aasimar rises up slightly from the ground and emits a sonic screech, creating silence as the sounds rips out to absorb and draw in all sound around it. As her unhearable, banshee-like wail rings out, the air distorts in rippling pools creating hypnotic patterns all around her, baffling the enemy.
This talk about bards reminds me of a relatively new Actual Play series, Belkinus Necrohunt. I'm not fully caught up on the series, but one of the players is a Bard, but he dresses like a wizard and isn't a musician. He roleplays it as being an orator, and Bardic Inspiration is often delivered by giving tactical advice rather than inspiring music or a compliment or whatever is more common with bards.
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I think the theme of bards should encompass any kind of performer, not just musicians. You should be able to play an actor bard, a poet bard, and stand-up comic bard, even a dance bard, although I don't know how the last fits with the requirement that you be able to hear for bardic inspiration. You could request your DM allow a homebrew that they have to see you instead.
You are. You are able to. What rule says you aren't?
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].