What are peoples thoughts on this status?  I personally feel like it doesn't really do anything to most characters and those that it does work against, tend to be stuck in a really crappy state of "I sit around with my thumb up my butt, because I can't get close enough to do anything...."

Saw someone once suggest homebrewing the effect to work a little different, such that it is actually useful against all players.  I think the idea came from the youtuber xptolevel3, and it was basically that if you get feared/frightened you roll a dice to see if you go into fight mode or flight mode.  Fight mode means that your character must attempt to get as close as possible to the target and physically beat it to death.  Flight mode means the player must use their turn to try and get as far away as possible from the source of their fear.  Basically get rid of that thing where a frightened target can choose to just go around a corner / stand their ground and use their ranged attack on the source of their fear.

I don't like to use the word "Must" about player characters.  Taking away people's decisions isn't on my Must Do list.

Frightened does

• A frightened creature has disadvantage on ability checks and attack rolls while the source of its fear is within line of sight.
• The creature can't willingly move closer to the source of its fear.

Seems clear enough to me.  I don't see the word "must" in there.  All it says is that they move away until they can't see the thing that Frightened them, or get Disadvantage if they move towards what they were Frightened of.

In the real world the reflex is actually a three way not a two way - not fight or flight but fight/flight or freeze. The condition basically represents the latter 2 possibilities. It’s when you overcome the fear and lose the condition that you fight, your body is prepped for it but not your mind when your suffering fear.

like the old line says “hero’s don’t not feel fear, the feel it and overcome it- that is what makes them hero’s”

To piggyback on Wi1dbi11, given how there's lots of studies/documentations to the point that trained/experienced combatants wind up with or already came to their duties with a heightened "fight" reflex, my take is "frightened" for game purposes overrides a typical D&D heroes fight instincts (we're basically talking aggression when we're talking "fight" responses in RL humans) imposing flight.  I'd say the freeze aspect could happen, but a character can still act in game with frightened, they just dread one particular combatant and will do their best to avoid said combatant.  And there's plenty of effects that freeze.

Enemies Abound would be a good example of magic that pushes the fight response over the line for a PC or any other character.  Actually combatants hone their aggression/fight response through disciplined technique, Enemies Abound removes that discipline leading to its effects.

I mean i'm sure we could add in a thrid option where the player freezes, so they don't run towards the enemy and they don't run away.  But it's basically just being stunned for a turn without the side effects.

I like it because of how you can use it and how it will affect the character's game play in the future not wanting to deal with that incident again. It is a more theatrical effect in my eyes and i love that stuff so i like it personally. 

Quote from MidnightPlat >>

To piggyback on Wi1dbi11, given how there's lots of studies/documentations to the point that trained/experienced combatants wind up with or already came to their duties with a heightened "fight" reflex, my take is "frightened" for game purposes overrides a typical D&D heroes fight instincts (we're basically talking aggression when we're talking "fight" responses in RL humans) imposing flight.  I'd say the freeze aspect could happen, but a character can still act in game with frightened, they just dread one particular combatant and will do their best to avoid said combatant.  And there's plenty of effects that freeze.

Enemies Abound would be a good example of magic that pushes the fight response over the line for a PC or any other character.  Actually combatants hone their aggression/fight response through disciplined technique, Enemies Abound removes that discipline leading to its effects.

 I feel like the frightened effect just does so very very little.  Like a fair chunk of (most?) characters are more then happy to not get close to the enemy they are fighting,  And disadvantage isn't that big a deal (average of -5 to a roll, and gets cancelled out by advantage).  Plus most things that would have a constant frighten effect up, have that effect cancelled when the player makes a successful roll.  Like stun, charm, poison, etc... tend to not give the player immunity once they pass the check.

I figure the fight response would be something like the character is so over come with the primal need to see the thing dead, that they can't think straight and that's why they charge the enemy.... If that turns out to be too strong, then just change the effect to be the opposite of fear "player may not move further away from the enemy, and can only take offensive actions targeting that enemy."

Quote from Zhule >>

What are peoples thoughts on this status?  I personally feel like it doesn't really do anything to most characters and those that it does work against, tend to be stuck in a really crappy state of "I sit around with my thumb up my butt, because I can't get close enough to do anything...."

 I feel this is only a problem if the DM runs a single BBEG with a fear. They should include minions that people who can't attack the boss can deal with. So, no thumb in the rear. While dealing with fear as a PC is annoying, I feel it is huge advantage to a party when a PC has one(or a similar crowd control ability). As someone who plays Cleric, holding off throngs of undead and vampires for my group was a life saver.

Having a 50/50 chance (assuming the spell or ability used succeeds) of forcing a character that has no business being in melee and really doesn't want to be in melee to go in melee and start ineffectually pummeling monsters rather than doing something they're actually competent at seems a little excessive to me. 

Agreed, again, in real life the 3 options work as a series: first freeze- if you hold still you nearly go invisible because everything is looking for motion to fix on and aim for; if that doesn’t work then Flee - better to avoid combat and injury if at all possible: finally when all also fails, fight- and you go into super overdrive and those disadvanges should turn into advantages  on attacks, ability checks and saves. Effectively you go into something like a babarian’s rage, your normal limits on strength disappear, your reactions speed up, your thought processes speed up and it feels like time slows to a crawl or stops. Afterwards your whole body and mind sort of go limp and shake as you try to recover. BTDT

I like fear (and charmed.) I think the main reason people dislike it is that they're handling it purely as a bundle of game mechanics and not as a cue to act out a dramatic moment. Lean into the roleplaying implications of seeing one of your closest friends gripped with terror and hesitate when you need them most. Think about the consequences that'll have on the group dynamic after the battle. If the target's confidence in themselves shaken? What about their allies' trust in them? Will they have PTSD the next time they encounter an ancient dragon? Or maybe they have a vendetta against dragons for making a fool out of them?

If you're the DM, try pressing your players for how their character reacts to the situation instead of accepting "I guess I dash away and end my turn." Do they run away screaming? Are they visibly shaken? What does everyone else do when they see that? If you don't prompt them to roleplay they probably won't. They already know why the frightened character is doing what they're doing and if they're used to engaging with combat purely in terms of their action, bonus action and movement it's going to feel awkward for them to roleplay unprompted. They're not going to voluntarily break the norms you've established for combat and risk making things weird.

Trying to increase the fun of fear by making sure the player's not too hampered by the condition kind of misses the point in my opinion.

Being unable to move is inflicting the Incapacitated condition on yourself.  Yes, that happens in real life.  It's not fun.  The single most important thing a DM can do is make things more fun.  It's clear what Frightened causes and how characters are supposed to react. 

Move to safety, maybe run, maybe try to hide, and if you can't do either, try to fight back.  Using that with the Suggestion spell would be perfect.

The complaint that Frightened isn't a powerful enough condition isn't really valid.  You Frighten someone, that's all.  It's not supposed to Frighten them to death.

Quote from Zhule >>

I feel like the frightened effect just does so very very little.  Like a fair chunk of (most?) characters are more then happy to not get close to the enemy they are fighting,  And disadvantage isn't that big a deal (average of -5 to a roll, and gets cancelled out by advantage).  Plus most things that would have a constant frighten effect up, have that effect cancelled when the player makes a successful roll.  Like stun, charm, poison, etc... tend to not give the player immunity once they pass the check.

 

I figure the fight response would be something like the character is so over come with the primal need to see the thing dead, that they can't think straight and that's why they charge the enemy.... If that turns out to be too strong, then just change the effect to be the opposite of fear "player may not move further away from the enemy, and can only take offensive actions targeting that enemy."

You could have degrees of fear - and fight or flight is a four-way, not a two-way or a three-way.  We could put all four on a track of increasing severity, like  Exhaustion has, but fight would have to be at the top, so real frightened would bypass it.  For the track below, to make the four-way of fear work, the track isn't cumulative, unlike exhaustion - each level does what it says it does:

1. Fight:  Disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks against things that aren't the fear source while the fear source is within LOS, and can’t willingly move away from the fear source.
2. Flight level 1:  Standard frightened.  Disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks while the fear source is within LOS, and can’t willingly approach the fear source.
3. Flight level 2: Standard turned and frightened.  Must spend each turn trying to move as far away from the fear source as possible, but can't willingly move to a space within 30 feet of the fear source at all (so while near the fear source, too scared to move). Can't take reactions, and action must be Dash, any action that validly attempts escape from an effect that prevents moving, or if there's nowhere to move, Dodge.  Cumulative with Flight 1 (level 2 on this track).
4. Freeze level 1: Incapacitated by fear.
5. Freeze level 2: Stunned by fear.
6. Freeze level 3: Paralyzed by fear.
7. Fawn level 1: Charmed by fear source, and regard fear source as something that must be appeased, no matter the cost or difficulty - victim must do everything in their power to, as earnestly as possible, act in their fear source's best interest.  Victim may choose to function as if paralyzed if all possible things they could do would immediately lead to their death or the death of one of their allies.
8. Fawn level 2: As Fawn 1, but may not choose paralysis unless all possible things lead to their own death.
9. Victim falls unconscious and can't wake up until the effect ends.  At the DM's discretion, the victim may die of fear instead, or after a period of time.

Giving the frightened condition a whole separate stack of rules is not really how 5e is supposed to work.

Base conditions only do a couple things, and the variety of effects are meant to encompass different levels of severity. If you want them to do more, you add the effects in the power/action you're using. You see this pattern all over existing content: "While you are frightened this way, you are also paralyzed."

This way your overhaul to make your BBEG cooler doesn't inadvertently overpower your CR1/2 goblin spookmancer. Conditions should remain simple and modular, and you use them as a foundation when you want to have more complicated effects.

Quote from scatterbraind >>

Giving the frightened condition a whole separate stack of rules is not really how 5e is supposed to work.

 

Agreed. But that said I really like quindraco's table. It's a good building block for DMs to create new fear effects or for players to randomly determine their character's reaction. I especially like that it includes fawning.

I think frightened is condition and works better as defined as opposed to the proposed metacondition that cascades a table of possible responses.   It basically turns any magic or power with a fear affect a psychic chaos bolt.    Let's keep in mind fear is sometimes a 1 turn effect others have a duration allowing repeated saves.  A lot of the rando fear affect table seem incomensurate with the array of durations possible under fear.  While interesting, dominate person fawn isn't really a plausible response in the broad array of circumstances where fear can be applied (I mean for instance how do you fawn if you have no idea where your fear is coming from?) ... especially if you use some of the inspiration VRGtR suggests for additional fear/stress scenarios.  Scared to death?  The game design that thinks such psychic damage effects are warranted give that ability to the monster/spell.  Like scatterbrained pointed out, conditions are supposed to be simple.  If you want a broader fear cocktail beyond frightened, the other effects can have separate or compounding mechanisms.  There's enough to build with what you have, and if you want to buff some fear-making capacities, compound them in your house ruling homebrewing, but I wouldn't change the frightened effect in the blanket pattern being proposed.  

On a practical game level, the expanded inconsistent fear would make encounter management mostly burdensome on the DM, who now not only has to note frightened conditions, but what sort.  

I'm also a fan of something a bit more restrictive to actually simulate fear.

In practice, I find most players who are frightened will hem and haw about what to do and find ways to tactfully play around the fear. The actual reaction I want out of a frightened character is one of impulse. I probably wouldn't go as complex as quindraco, but I do rather like the idea of the character randomly rolling a 'mode' of fear at the start of their turn and being forced to comply with that. 

There is a growing list of words I dislike seeing applied to player characters.  One of the top ones on my list is "Forced"  Not only does this take away the character's options (in this case randomly) it all takes away the player's options, because the dice are running their character for them.  I don't show up to watch anyone or anything else run my character for me.  I am aware that it comes up, there are spells much more powerful than the ones that cause the Frightened condition, and I'll deal with them, but  I can do something more fun than that for myself and my own players.

Consider what the term "Forced" means in social situations.  D&D is one of them.

I’m with Geann on this - if you don’t like the way I play my character you are welcome to discuss it with me in or out of the game - if you are just going to institute rules that take away my agency I’m not happy and will probably leave the game and find another. 

I certainly wouldn't spring any rules changes on my players without discussion and agreement. 

But I also don't see how that type of effect is any different from numerous other monster effects or spell effects, such as an umber hulk or a gibbering mouther. Heck, even the fear spell forces a character into 'flight' mode already.

I think you're going to find it very difficult to play a full D&D game without ever being charmed, restrained, stunned, paralyzed, put to sleep, confused, or affected by any other host of other effects that forces or restricts your behavior in some way.