The campaign I'm running, the party recently completed a boss battle against a high level necromancer, who had a Shield Guardian. The Guardian was completely destroyed in the battle. They were able to recover the Guardian's Masters Amulet. The Guardian itself is beyond repair, but the party has asked me what would it take to get a brand new Guardian to go with the Masters Amulet they now have. I'm guessing it would take a long time to build one or to have it built, and it would cost an extraordinary amount of gold to do so. Has anyone on this forum ever worked out a rough idea how much it would cost and how long it would take to have one built?
Narratively, I'll let them know that it will be very difficult to do and expensive to have it done. I must admit that I have been a very generous DM, and they probably could afford to have one made or buy an existing one - granted it would likely cost them the bulk of their earned wealth to do so. I was just wondering if anyone could advise me on what sort of price range a Shield Guardian would go for. I'm leaning towards something around $100,000+ GP, but I don't want to quote too low a price. I'd rather they didn't get an item like this, but if they want to go to the effort and spend their acquired wealth on such a ridiculous item, who am I to tell them no. It will just mean that I will be upping the level of their opponents moving forward. They are a high level group.
Look uphttps://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/5416-manual-of-golems magic item. Those exists to let wizards build their own golems for tower defense etc. You can use the stone golem as a template cost and time build, and just say with the amulet it gains the shield guardian stat block.
If you want to help the players along, if one of them is a Dwarf or has Smith Tool proficiency, give them the Redsmith items as a fun precuror to the building process.
Then let them recycle magic items to put toward the golem's build cost, and/or when rummaging for treasure, if the place belonged to a powerful spell caster, let them each roll for a chance at getting an extra d4, d6, or d8 x100gp of random magic grade materials that can only be applied to the golem's construction.
I’d treat it like crafting a magic item, and use the DMG rules including a variety of tool proficiencies. Probably I’d go with legendary for the rarity level.
I’d treat it like crafting a magic item, and use the DMG rules including a variety of tool proficiencies. Probably I’d go with legendary for the rarity level.
The DMG is so nondescript and tells you to wing it in a few places. Its half the reason I’m still mad about 2024 revamp and Eberron barely addressing things.
Thanks Xalthu and starlinvf. Great suggestions, especially starlinvf. I continued poking around and discovered forum discussions about Shield Guardians below its detail page. One DM had actually taken the time to create a template on how a party could build its own Shield Guardian. I copy and pasted it into a word doc so I could refer back to it during game time.
starlinvf, I completely agree with your feelings about WotC not being more specific in the DMG about Magic Item creation. However, in their defense, maybe they've chosen to be vague in order to allow DMs to create their own rules or means of item creation. Who knows.
I think the bare bones nature of making magic items is that the game as always tacitly discouraged crafting. Heck, in 1e you needed to cast a spell called permanency to make an item, and casting that spell caused you to permanently lose one point of constitution.
The idea has been, why spend 2 weeks in town making a magic sword when you can spend those same 2 weeks adventuring, fighting bad guys and taking their magic sword.
I‘m not trying to say people are wrong for wanting more robust crafting mechanics, just that’s never really been D&D’s strong suit.
If I were high level player in a campaign with a very generous DM and just defeated a high level enemy, I would be confused to find that the only loot I got was locked behind a 100k paywall. Did they get anything else?
Also, why did you include it if you didn't want them to have it? And why are you against them having it? I assume they have other magic items that are equally as powerful if you've given them a lot already.
I'm seeing a mismatch in expectations between you and your players, and it seems to center around your reluctance to let them have this item. As someone who has played in a few high level campaigns before, I don't think this is a game-breaking item at that level of play. All that being said, I would just tell them it doesn't function anymore. Charging them an arm and a leg because you don't want them to have it feels weirdly passive-aggressive and leaves both sides unhappy - they probably didn't want to spend all their loot, and you didn't want them to have it.
As a rule of thumb, don't be afraid to just say "no" when the players want to try and MacGuyver something nonstandard out of the salvage/remains of a powerful enemy. Just like how the current MM is very explicit that fantastic properties of weapons on statblocks are keyed to those monsters, not something anyone can pick up the weapon and get. If you prefer to stick with your planned loot and purchases/crafting from the existing items list, that's your prerogative. Talk it out, hopefully people will accept that this was just one of those ideas that doesn't work for every table.
It is almost impossible in 5e to give advice here. Every tables economy is different. In all the tables i have been it would take all the wealth of multiple parties hitting 20th level to have 100k. Your table that is apparently possible for them at their current level though its most of their money. While they have "rules" for it, 5e is clearly not designed or balanced around players making magic items. personally if i allowed it I'd go 2e on it and assume powerful magic items are made through questing for specific materials not available on the market. They need to right eye of a ancient red dragon which they bathe in the blood of a coven of hags, which creates a soul orb which they use to absorb the soul from a stone golem. With that they can power the creature made from adamantine forged in the flows of lava in the city of brass to create a shield guardian.
I'll pop some info I pulled from google AI in a spoiler about 3e golem crafting so you can use that a a reference but maybe take it with a pinch of salt:
Requirements
Feats: Craft Construct, plus Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item.
Skills: Craft (blacksmithing) or Craft (carpentry) DC 16.
Materials: 5,000 gp (for the body), plus 20,000 gp for the control amulet (total base cost is 25,000 gp, which is part of the 120,000 gp market price).
Labor/Time: 65 days or, more generally, 1 day per 1,000 gp of market price.
Laboratory: A specially prepared laboratory or workroom costing 500 gp.
The Creation Process
Construct the Body: The creator must assemble the body from wood, bronze, stone, and steel (DC 16 skill check).
Fashion the Amulet: The control amulet is created simultaneously with the body.
Animate the Construct: The creator must perform a ritual, which involves spending the XP and casting the required spells (limited wish, etc.).
Keying: The amulet is keyed to the guardian during construction. The wearer of this amulet is the guardian's master.
Key Data
Market Price: 120,000 gp.
Cost to Create: 65,000 gp + 4,600 XP.
Advanced Golems: If the guardian has more than 15 HD, each extra HD adds +5,000 gp to the price, and +20,000 gp if the size increases to Huge.
Now that was pertaining to 3e so you could tweak a few things for 5e crafting. I'd likely keep the min 15th level requirements for crafting it but ignore the investiture of XP, add on some Blacksmithing tool checks (DC17, I come to that number using base DC10 + 7 for the CR of the shield guardian) maybe go for one tool check per week of crafting the body, I'd likely increase the cost of materials to 25,000gp but it depends on what your party's funds are like, required spells to be cast during the "animation ritual" (in no particular order): Locate Creature (lvl4 spell), Shield (lvl 1 spell), Wish (lvl 9 spell, sadly limited wish is not in 5e), Animate Objects (lvl 5 spell). Keep the length of time required to create the guardians body to 1 day per 1000gp of golem "market price" and require a special laboratory but increase cost of building the lab from 500gp to 1000gp again depending on what the party funds are like. Materials should probably include some very rare items requiring some side quests to find and the animation ritual should probably be quite taxing requiring a day or more to complete along with some Arcana checks of increasing difficulty and maybe even a Cons Saving throw to avoid a level of exhaustion once the ritual is complete.
That's a little bit of a ramble but I hope it helps a little.
The amulet is significantly less valuable than the golem -- you can craft a new amulet for an existing golem, the reverse is not true.
Based on the manual of golems, it's between flesh and clay for power, so if we ignore its special abilities (damage sharing and spell storing), I'd estimate 60,000 and 45 days. However, those special abilities are pretty significant, so I'd probably bump it up to be equivalent to stone or iron.
This, of course, assumes that they can find a formula for creating a golem in the first place. If you don't want to deal with a shield golem... just don't give them the formula.
Thanks Xalthu and starlinvf. Great suggestions, especially starlinvf. I continued poking around and discovered forum discussions about Shield Guardians below its detail page. One DM had actually taken the time to create a template on how a party could build its own Shield Guardian. I copy and pasted it into a word doc so I could refer back to it during game time.
starlinvf, I completely agree with your feelings about WotC not being more specific in the DMG about Magic Item creation. However, in their defense, maybe they've chosen to be vague in order to allow DMs to create their own rules or means of item creation. Who knows.
Making DM fiat was their intention.... but its one of those areas where there exists enough information to prove they its a concept they support, but provides counter intuitive guidance on how to use what little information they do provide. Its like if they gave information and stat blocks for + To Hit bonuses, said that if it exceeds the AC value it hits.... but then not mention AC anywhere in the monster stat blocks; instead having to rely on another page citing monster ACs should be between 10 and 30. its very apt example, because not all magic items within a rarity should be the same gold price, just like monsters in a given category do not all share the same AC value.
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The campaign I'm running, the party recently completed a boss battle against a high level necromancer, who had a Shield Guardian. The Guardian was completely destroyed in the battle. They were able to recover the Guardian's Masters Amulet. The Guardian itself is beyond repair, but the party has asked me what would it take to get a brand new Guardian to go with the Masters Amulet they now have. I'm guessing it would take a long time to build one or to have it built, and it would cost an extraordinary amount of gold to do so. Has anyone on this forum ever worked out a rough idea how much it would cost and how long it would take to have one built?
Narratively, I'll let them know that it will be very difficult to do and expensive to have it done. I must admit that I have been a very generous DM, and they probably could afford to have one made or buy an existing one - granted it would likely cost them the bulk of their earned wealth to do so. I was just wondering if anyone could advise me on what sort of price range a Shield Guardian would go for. I'm leaning towards something around $100,000+ GP, but I don't want to quote too low a price. I'd rather they didn't get an item like this, but if they want to go to the effort and spend their acquired wealth on such a ridiculous item, who am I to tell them no. It will just mean that I will be upping the level of their opponents moving forward. They are a high level group.
Your input would be greatly appreciated. Cheers.
Look uphttps://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/5416-manual-of-golems magic item. Those exists to let wizards build their own golems for tower defense etc. You can use the stone golem as a template cost and time build, and just say with the amulet it gains the shield guardian stat block.
If you want to help the players along, if one of them is a Dwarf or has Smith Tool proficiency, give them the Redsmith items as a fun precuror to the building process.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/9445400-redsmith-crucible-set
https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/9445401-redsmith-hammer
Then let them recycle magic items to put toward the golem's build cost, and/or when rummaging for treasure, if the place belonged to a powerful spell caster, let them each roll for a chance at getting an extra d4, d6, or d8 x100gp of random magic grade materials that can only be applied to the golem's construction.
I’d treat it like crafting a magic item, and use the DMG rules including a variety of tool proficiencies. Probably I’d go with legendary for the rarity level.
The DMG is so nondescript and tells you to wing it in a few places. Its half the reason I’m still mad about 2024 revamp and Eberron barely addressing things.
Thanks Xalthu and starlinvf. Great suggestions, especially starlinvf. I continued poking around and discovered forum discussions about Shield Guardians below its detail page. One DM had actually taken the time to create a template on how a party could build its own Shield Guardian. I copy and pasted it into a word doc so I could refer back to it during game time.
starlinvf, I completely agree with your feelings about WotC not being more specific in the DMG about Magic Item creation. However, in their defense, maybe they've chosen to be vague in order to allow DMs to create their own rules or means of item creation. Who knows.
I think the bare bones nature of making magic items is that the game as always tacitly discouraged crafting. Heck, in 1e you needed to cast a spell called permanency to make an item, and casting that spell caused you to permanently lose one point of constitution.
The idea has been, why spend 2 weeks in town making a magic sword when you can spend those same 2 weeks adventuring, fighting bad guys and taking their magic sword.
I‘m not trying to say people are wrong for wanting more robust crafting mechanics, just that’s never really been D&D’s strong suit.
If I were high level player in a campaign with a very generous DM and just defeated a high level enemy, I would be confused to find that the only loot I got was locked behind a 100k paywall. Did they get anything else?
Also, why did you include it if you didn't want them to have it? And why are you against them having it? I assume they have other magic items that are equally as powerful if you've given them a lot already.
I'm seeing a mismatch in expectations between you and your players, and it seems to center around your reluctance to let them have this item. As someone who has played in a few high level campaigns before, I don't think this is a game-breaking item at that level of play. All that being said, I would just tell them it doesn't function anymore. Charging them an arm and a leg because you don't want them to have it feels weirdly passive-aggressive and leaves both sides unhappy - they probably didn't want to spend all their loot, and you didn't want them to have it.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
As a rule of thumb, don't be afraid to just say "no" when the players want to try and MacGuyver something nonstandard out of the salvage/remains of a powerful enemy. Just like how the current MM is very explicit that fantastic properties of weapons on statblocks are keyed to those monsters, not something anyone can pick up the weapon and get. If you prefer to stick with your planned loot and purchases/crafting from the existing items list, that's your prerogative. Talk it out, hopefully people will accept that this was just one of those ideas that doesn't work for every table.
It is almost impossible in 5e to give advice here. Every tables economy is different. In all the tables i have been it would take all the wealth of multiple parties hitting 20th level to have 100k. Your table that is apparently possible for them at their current level though its most of their money. While they have "rules" for it, 5e is clearly not designed or balanced around players making magic items. personally if i allowed it I'd go 2e on it and assume powerful magic items are made through questing for specific materials not available on the market. They need to right eye of a ancient red dragon which they bathe in the blood of a coven of hags, which creates a soul orb which they use to absorb the soul from a stone golem. With that they can power the creature made from adamantine forged in the flows of lava in the city of brass to create a shield guardian.
I'll pop some info I pulled from google AI in a spoiler about 3e golem crafting so you can use that a a reference but maybe take it with a pinch of salt:
Now that was pertaining to 3e so you could tweak a few things for 5e crafting. I'd likely keep the min 15th level requirements for crafting it but ignore the investiture of XP, add on some Blacksmithing tool checks (DC17, I come to that number using base DC10 + 7 for the CR of the shield guardian) maybe go for one tool check per week of crafting the body, I'd likely increase the cost of materials to 25,000gp but it depends on what your party's funds are like, required spells to be cast during the "animation ritual" (in no particular order): Locate Creature (lvl4 spell), Shield (lvl 1 spell), Wish (lvl 9 spell, sadly limited wish is not in 5e), Animate Objects (lvl 5 spell). Keep the length of time required to create the guardians body to 1 day per 1000gp of golem "market price" and require a special laboratory but increase cost of building the lab from 500gp to 1000gp again depending on what the party funds are like. Materials should probably include some very rare items requiring some side quests to find and the animation ritual should probably be quite taxing requiring a day or more to complete along with some Arcana checks of increasing difficulty and maybe even a Cons Saving throw to avoid a level of exhaustion once the ritual is complete.
That's a little bit of a ramble but I hope it helps a little.
The amulet is significantly less valuable than the golem -- you can craft a new amulet for an existing golem, the reverse is not true.
Based on the manual of golems, it's between flesh and clay for power, so if we ignore its special abilities (damage sharing and spell storing), I'd estimate 60,000 and 45 days. However, those special abilities are pretty significant, so I'd probably bump it up to be equivalent to stone or iron.
This, of course, assumes that they can find a formula for creating a golem in the first place. If you don't want to deal with a shield golem... just don't give them the formula.
Making DM fiat was their intention.... but its one of those areas where there exists enough information to prove they its a concept they support, but provides counter intuitive guidance on how to use what little information they do provide. Its like if they gave information and stat blocks for + To Hit bonuses, said that if it exceeds the AC value it hits.... but then not mention AC anywhere in the monster stat blocks; instead having to rely on another page citing monster ACs should be between 10 and 30. its very apt example, because not all magic items within a rarity should be the same gold price, just like monsters in a given category do not all share the same AC value.