Okay, there are a couple threads discussing whether or not 5e should have more classes, and what they should look like. That is not the purpose of this thread. This is meant to be a discussion on how 5e classes should currently change, one way or the other.
As most of us probably know, Tasha's Cauldron of Everything is coming out later this year with Class Feature Variants, which will allow you to personalize your own class features more. This may be a way of changing how the classes work in the future, hopefully continued to be expanded after Tasha's Cauldron of Everything comes out. This brings us to the discussion. Clearly, some classes in 5e will be changing, even if just in an optional way, in about 2 months. How and should the classes change in 5e.
First, do you think the classes in 5e should change, more than what we've already seen in the Class Feature Variants UA? Answer the poll, and share your thoughts below.
Second, which classes should change, and how? More specifically, which class do you think needs changing most, aft what we've seen is already changing with the CFV UA?
Please discuss, I can't wait to hear back from the community with your ideas.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I certainly would like adding more options, letting us pick and choose from different options at each level a new class feature is added. I'm not sure if that counts as changing them though.....
I don't think any class is so bad that it can't survive on its own two feet without heavy changes and additions, but personally the three I would like to see more fleshing out for are Monks, Rangers and Sorcerers. They just need a bit more oomph to take them out of the nebulous pit of "bad" classes and give them more unique features to call their own. I don't think they are bad classes though as I said.
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"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
The Ranger definitely needs help. Some of the CVFs were a huge change to it, but I feel like it needs some more. The Beast Master in particular needs more than the spirit Beasts that it got in UA (and generally more of those, too). Just get over your fear, WotC, and give the Beast it's own turn immediately following yours! It shouldn't need commands from you to attack a target, any dog will attack the same thing you do. Issuing commands should only be something you need to do if you want it doing something else, and the beast should follow those commands as best it can based on it's Intel.
The Sorcerer base class also needs some adjustment, just not so urgently. Red, Brass, and Gold Dragonblood Sorcerers are fantastic (other colors not so much), but their Class Features are heavily overloaded by comparison, while the Divine Soul has ridiculous options. The CVF ability to swap spells per Long Rest is nice, for sure, but I don't think that's gonna cut it. And the additional Metamagics seemed pretty "meh" to me. The elemental swap one was interesting, but ultimately would devour your Sorcery Points at an even more alarming rate than the others already do. Either Sorcery Points need a smaller cap while refreshing on Short Rest, instead of Long, or the max number of Sorcery Points needs to increase faster. I'd also like Subtle Spell to be removed as a Metamagic, and simply implemented into the Spellcasting feature, but I don't expect that to actually happen. Oh, and just generally increasing the scope of the Sorcerer spell list. It's only got 192 entries, while the Wizard list has 336 entries.
I chose Sorcerer as to me it doesn't really do anything better than the Wizard or Warlock. Just from a mechanics perspective it is dull and from a story perspective it has a very poorly defined space to exist in. Wizards are far more versatile casters because they can swap out their daily spells from a the largest selection of spells in the game. Warlock are thematically well defined and interesting niche to fill as an arcane caster and have imho the most creative options of all the classes. Sorceress have a small number of spells known selected from an equally small pool of choices. The various Origins are kind of uninspired and always feels lacking. They need the most help in my opinion.
Ranger needs help, but at least it has subclasses that help make it better. It just needs the core class itself to be "fixed".
I think the ranger still has problems after you factor in the CFV, but I think the Sorcerer has more.
I would have to agree with you for sure. The sorcerer seems like the least desired class for adventurers to play with. Since the start of 5e I've only had two people play a sorcerer, and both of them disliked their choice. It's sad, because in fantasy lore sorcerers are always depicted to be really cool and edgy.
I think the primary problem with the sorcerer is the limited spell list more then anything (Though the meta magic/spell point system could use a bit of work). I think they should be allowed more options, maybe as many as wizards or even, if I'm being a bit daring, more options then even them. Sorcerers are meant to have magic literally coursing through them whether its from an ancient bloodline or a magical soul or being touched by beings of pure magic and having some of their residual magic rubbing of on them, at least that is how I see them. So it makes sense that they should have the capacity to cast most of the spells in the game. The limitations to having basically every spell option potentially at their fingertips would be having a smaller amount of spells they can learn at one time, the inability to swap spells out at every long rest like a wizard, and certain spell lists being locked behind sub-classes (Like the cleric list for Divine Sorcerers). Also we really need a wider range of elemental spells honestly.
Probably not a popular opinion as I know people can get very upset with the idea of a class getting other class's spell lists but I think this could help the sorcerer a ton.
There was a UA some time ago that let you mingle and mix out different abilities of a class to make it more unique for you or the build that you had in mind. I'd like that to become official in the future if Tasha's upcoming new book doesn't reference to it already as an optional rule with a bit of fine tweaking.
There was a UA some time ago that let you mingle and mix out different abilities of a class to make it more unique for you or the build that you had in mind. I'd like that to become official in the future if Tasha's upcoming new book doesn't reference to it already as an optional rule with a bit of fine tweaking.
It is becoming official in Tasha's in one way or the other, and I mentioned that UA in the original post.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I'm hoping that all classes get access to feature variants over time, to allow players to customise them more freely.
Though the classes which need it the most are ranger and sorcerer imo. Ranger feels like its designed for a different game (though the new variants help a huge amount here), while sorcerer feels like it was built entirely out of design compromise.
I also think that there are potential uses for the class feature variants system beyond what they're currently designed for.
I said yes and that the Ranger needs the CFVs, closely fallowed by the Sorcerer. I actually think Monk cfvs would be pretty cool as well, considering the nature of the monk.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
I think all sorcerer subclasses should get their own additional spells which they automatically know, in addition to their normal spells.
I don't understand why basically every caster has this, and even some sub subclasses have unique spell lists (land druid and genie warlock), while sorcerer gets nothing. Their subclasses are really thematic in theory, then then just fall flat for the execution.
We were having a discussion a little like this yesterday on the DDB Discord. I never gave the samurai subclass much thought until recently because I wasn't interested in playing a stereotypical samurai. If they were simply to rename it "honor guard" or something more evocative of the subclass' features, then I think I would have given it a closer look much earlier. Also, I think it's a mistake to tie a subclass so closely to specific imagery.
As for material changes to classes, people seem to think the Sorcerer gets short shrift. One easy change would just be to give sorcerers all the metamagics rather than making them choose. I don't see how this would be particularly game-breaking since they are still limited by their sorcery points.
Also, I like this recent trend of using feats to give classes a little taste of the features of other classes. I look at it in tiers. If you want all the features, pick the class/subclass. If you want some of them, multiclass into the class/subclass. If you want a taste, pick the feat. I don't subscribe to the attitude that "you should not step on another class' toes" as long as it is done in an interesting way.
I think the ranger still has problems after you factor in the CFV, but I think the Sorcerer has more.
I would have to agree with you for sure. The sorcerer seems like the least desired class for adventurers to play with. Since the start of 5e I've only had two people play a sorcerer, and both of them disliked their choice. It's sad, because in fantasy lore sorcerers are always depicted to be really cool and edgy.
Okay, two things: I looked at the CFVs from a while back and sorcerer's seemed to help
AND SORCERER IS PRETTY GREAT. Chaos bolt deals 2d8+1d6 damage as a first level spell, and with quickened spell + twinned firebolt it only gets better. How about this: take the magic initiate feat for eldritch blast and hellish rebuke.
The baseline for the most complicated class is usually wizard, but with a sorcerer's metamagic, I feel like it just takes skill to play it well.
I'm still going to wait to see what's in TCoE. Once that's all out in the open, only then will I have a foundation for launching into opinions. Right now, it's all up in the air.
No point in trying to jump mid-air. Might as well land first instead of wasting the efforts.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
To be honest, I don't like sorcerer being built around metamagic at all. It used to be a feat all casters could get, and I don't like how it ended up restricted to sorcerers, simply because they couldn't decide what they wanted sorcerer to do.
The playtest idea of them changing and gaining abilities as they spend sorcery points was way cooler. Draconic sorcerers at high level ending up as a dragon lite once they've run dry.
Also why can't sorcerers get true polymorph? It makes sense for them more than other casters. The dragonborn draconic sorcerer can't become a dragon, but Jimmy the gnomish flute player can?
Okay, there are a couple threads discussing whether or not 5e should have more classes, and what they should look like. That is not the purpose of this thread. This is meant to be a discussion on how 5e classes should currently change, one way or the other.
As most of us probably know, Tasha's Cauldron of Everything is coming out later this year with Class Feature Variants, which will allow you to personalize your own class features more. This may be a way of changing how the classes work in the future, hopefully continued to be expanded after Tasha's Cauldron of Everything comes out. This brings us to the discussion. Clearly, some classes in 5e will be changing, even if just in an optional way, in about 2 months. How and should the classes change in 5e.
First, do you think the classes in 5e should change, more than what we've already seen in the Class Feature Variants UA? Answer the poll, and share your thoughts below.
Second, which classes should change, and how? More specifically, which class do you think needs changing most, aft what we've seen is already changing with the CFV UA?
Please discuss, I can't wait to hear back from the community with your ideas.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I certainly would like adding more options, letting us pick and choose from different options at each level a new class feature is added. I'm not sure if that counts as changing them though.....
I don't think any class is so bad that it can't survive on its own two feet without heavy changes and additions, but personally the three I would like to see more fleshing out for are Monks, Rangers and Sorcerers. They just need a bit more oomph to take them out of the nebulous pit of "bad" classes and give them more unique features to call their own. I don't think they are bad classes though as I said.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
The Ranger definitely needs help. Some of the CVFs were a huge change to it, but I feel like it needs some more. The Beast Master in particular needs more than the spirit Beasts that it got in UA (and generally more of those, too). Just get over your fear, WotC, and give the Beast it's own turn immediately following yours! It shouldn't need commands from you to attack a target, any dog will attack the same thing you do. Issuing commands should only be something you need to do if you want it doing something else, and the beast should follow those commands as best it can based on it's Intel.
The Sorcerer base class also needs some adjustment, just not so urgently. Red, Brass, and Gold Dragonblood Sorcerers are fantastic (other colors not so much), but their Class Features are heavily overloaded by comparison, while the Divine Soul has ridiculous options. The CVF ability to swap spells per Long Rest is nice, for sure, but I don't think that's gonna cut it. And the additional Metamagics seemed pretty "meh" to me. The elemental swap one was interesting, but ultimately would devour your Sorcery Points at an even more alarming rate than the others already do. Either Sorcery Points need a smaller cap while refreshing on Short Rest, instead of Long, or the max number of Sorcery Points needs to increase faster. I'd also like Subtle Spell to be removed as a Metamagic, and simply implemented into the Spellcasting feature, but I don't expect that to actually happen. Oh, and just generally increasing the scope of the Sorcerer spell list. It's only got 192 entries, while the Wizard list has 336 entries.
Alright just gonna input my votes and YUP everyone says ranger needs to change most by a landslide
poor ranger. Its features really are too situational
Proud poster on the Create a World thread
I think the ranger still has problems after you factor in the CFV, but I think the Sorcerer has more.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I chose Sorcerer as to me it doesn't really do anything better than the Wizard or Warlock. Just from a mechanics perspective it is dull and from a story perspective it has a very poorly defined space to exist in. Wizards are far more versatile casters because they can swap out their daily spells from a the largest selection of spells in the game. Warlock are thematically well defined and interesting niche to fill as an arcane caster and have imho the most creative options of all the classes. Sorceress have a small number of spells known selected from an equally small pool of choices. The various Origins are kind of uninspired and always feels lacking. They need the most help in my opinion.
Ranger needs help, but at least it has subclasses that help make it better. It just needs the core class itself to be "fixed".
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I would have to agree with you for sure. The sorcerer seems like the least desired class for adventurers to play with. Since the start of 5e I've only had two people play a sorcerer, and both of them disliked their choice. It's sad, because in fantasy lore sorcerers are always depicted to be really cool and edgy.
I think the primary problem with the sorcerer is the limited spell list more then anything (Though the meta magic/spell point system could use a bit of work). I think they should be allowed more options, maybe as many as wizards or even, if I'm being a bit daring, more options then even them. Sorcerers are meant to have magic literally coursing through them whether its from an ancient bloodline or a magical soul or being touched by beings of pure magic and having some of their residual magic rubbing of on them, at least that is how I see them. So it makes sense that they should have the capacity to cast most of the spells in the game. The limitations to having basically every spell option potentially at their fingertips would be having a smaller amount of spells they can learn at one time, the inability to swap spells out at every long rest like a wizard, and certain spell lists being locked behind sub-classes (Like the cleric list for Divine Sorcerers). Also we really need a wider range of elemental spells honestly.
Probably not a popular opinion as I know people can get very upset with the idea of a class getting other class's spell lists but I think this could help the sorcerer a ton.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
There was a UA some time ago that let you mingle and mix out different abilities of a class to make it more unique for you or the build that you had in mind. I'd like that to become official in the future if Tasha's upcoming new book doesn't reference to it already as an optional rule with a bit of fine tweaking.
It is becoming official in Tasha's in one way or the other, and I mentioned that UA in the original post.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Sorry, just got back from work so I kinda skim-read it!
I'm hoping that all classes get access to feature variants over time, to allow players to customise them more freely.
Though the classes which need it the most are ranger and sorcerer imo. Ranger feels like its designed for a different game (though the new variants help a huge amount here), while sorcerer feels like it was built entirely out of design compromise.
I also think that there are potential uses for the class feature variants system beyond what they're currently designed for.
I said yes and that the Ranger needs the CFVs, closely fallowed by the Sorcerer. I actually think Monk cfvs would be pretty cool as well, considering the nature of the monk.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
I think all sorcerer subclasses should get their own additional spells which they automatically know, in addition to their normal spells.
I don't understand why basically every caster has this, and even some sub subclasses have unique spell lists (land druid and genie warlock), while sorcerer gets nothing. Their subclasses are really thematic in theory, then then just fall flat for the execution.
We were having a discussion a little like this yesterday on the DDB Discord. I never gave the samurai subclass much thought until recently because I wasn't interested in playing a stereotypical samurai. If they were simply to rename it "honor guard" or something more evocative of the subclass' features, then I think I would have given it a closer look much earlier. Also, I think it's a mistake to tie a subclass so closely to specific imagery.
As for material changes to classes, people seem to think the Sorcerer gets short shrift. One easy change would just be to give sorcerers all the metamagics rather than making them choose. I don't see how this would be particularly game-breaking since they are still limited by their sorcery points.
Also, I like this recent trend of using feats to give classes a little taste of the features of other classes. I look at it in tiers. If you want all the features, pick the class/subclass. If you want some of them, multiclass into the class/subclass. If you want a taste, pick the feat. I don't subscribe to the attitude that "you should not step on another class' toes" as long as it is done in an interesting way.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Okay, two things: I looked at the CFVs from a while back and sorcerer's seemed to help
AND SORCERER IS PRETTY GREAT. Chaos bolt deals 2d8+1d6 damage as a first level spell, and with quickened spell + twinned firebolt it only gets better. How about this: take the magic initiate feat for eldritch blast and hellish rebuke.
The baseline for the most complicated class is usually wizard, but with a sorcerer's metamagic, I feel like it just takes skill to play it well.
Proud poster on the Create a World thread
I'm still going to wait to see what's in TCoE. Once that's all out in the open, only then will I have a foundation for launching into opinions. Right now, it's all up in the air.
No point in trying to jump mid-air. Might as well land first instead of wasting the efforts.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
To be honest, I don't like sorcerer being built around metamagic at all. It used to be a feat all casters could get, and I don't like how it ended up restricted to sorcerers, simply because they couldn't decide what they wanted sorcerer to do.
The playtest idea of them changing and gaining abilities as they spend sorcery points was way cooler. Draconic sorcerers at high level ending up as a dragon lite once they've run dry.
Also why can't sorcerers get true polymorph? It makes sense for them more than other casters. The dragonborn draconic sorcerer can't become a dragon, but Jimmy the gnomish flute player can?
Make sorcerers a wizard subclass and make rangers a fighter subclass.
Yeah I went there.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
e.g. how to make an even less satisfying version of each class.
Totally makes 100% sense that sorcerers have to cast from a spellbook, or use int to cast, or all have the same origin with no variation.