Blink states that "at the end of each of your turns for the duration" you may go in the ethereal plane; but what happens if you end your turn inside an area that affects you if you end your turn into it, for example a burning surface, or an enemy's Spirit Guardians? will you be affected by that before vanishing, or you vanish before any damage gets dealt?
In my opinion, the timeframe of the "end of your turn" occurs before your turn has actually ended. So, Blink would happen first, at the end of your turn. Then, when your turn has ended, you would check to see if you are affected by Spirit Guardians which occurs if you are in that area whenever you "end your turn there". So, you would not be affected by Spirit Guardians since you are in the Ethereal Plane when your turn ends.
Blink states that "at the end of each of your turns for the duration" you may go in the ethereal plane; but what happens if you end your turn inside an area that affects you if you end your turn into it, for example a burning surface, or an enemy's Spirit Guardians? will you be affected by that before vanishing, or you vanish before any damage gets dealt?
Regarding Simultaneous Effects, If two or more things happen at the same time on a turn, the person at the game table—player or DM—whose turn it is decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the start of a player character’s turn, the player decides which of the effects happens first.
Blink states that "at the end of each of your turns for the duration" you may go in the ethereal plane; but what happens if you end your turn inside an area that affects you if you end your turn into it, for example a burning surface, or an enemy's Spirit Guardians? will you be affected by that before vanishing, or you vanish before any damage gets dealt?
Regarding Simultaneous Effects, If two or more things happen at the same time on a turn, the person at the game table—player or DM—whose turn it is decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the start of a player character’s turn, the player decides which of the effects happens first.
Blink states that "at the end of each of your turns for the duration" you may go in the ethereal plane; but what happens if you end your turn inside an area that affects you if you end your turn into it, for example a burning surface, or an enemy's Spirit Guardians? will you be affected by that before vanishing, or you vanish before any damage gets dealt?
Blink
Roll 1d6 at the end of each of your turns for the duration
Spirit Guardians
whenever a creature enters the Emanation or ends its turn there
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Why do you guys think that these are simultaneous events? [...]
Because they are.
- Blink: "... at the end of each of your turns ..." - Spirit Guardians (spell's effect simplified to focus on the important part): "... and whenever a creature enters the Emanation or ends its turn there ..."
The line "... whenever a creature [...] ends its turn there [something happens] ..." is essentially the same as " ... at the end of each of your turns there [something happens] ... "
The rule quoted by @Plaguescarred was an optional rule in XGtE, now incorporated into the 2024 PHB. Before having it, I guess most DM were deciding what to do, maybe doing this, on the fly or perhaps randomly. Who knows. Good to have this rule in the books.
The line "... whenever a creature [...] ends its turn there [something happens] ..." is essentially the same as " ... at the end of each of your turns there [something happens] ... "
First, it's probably just a typo, but there is no "there" in the second case. It's just ". . . at the endof each of your turns [something happens] . . ."
Hopefully some of our resident technical writers will chime in on this soon since this is just a grammar issue. I disagree quite strongly that these two clauses mean the same thing in the context of the game rules.
The word "end" in the blink effect is a noun. It is used in a prepositional phrase to describe in which portion "of your turn" the effect takes place. It's still taking place on your turn. In a specific portion OF your turn. This is describing where in your turn this happens -- at the end of it.
The word "end" in the description for spirit guardians is a verb. A verb is an action word. In that case, you have actually ended your turn. So, it is no longer your turn when the DM checks to see if you are affected by the spirit guardians effect.
Here's how it would play out:
DM: Alex, it's your turn.
Player: Ok, so that enemy right in front of me is still protected by Spirit Guardians and so I am still located within that AoE?
DM: Yes
Player: Hmm. Well, I have previously cast Blink, and that effect is still active. Ok, I am going to just stay where I am, and I will attack that enemy.
(attack resolved)
DM: You missed. The enemy maintains concentration on spirit guardians.
Player: Darn. Well, I do not want to subject myself to an attack of opportunity, so I am not going to use any movement on my turn. I am also out of actions, and I cannot think of anything else to do on my turn. Since I am not doing anything else, I am now at the end of my turn. I will roll for my Blink effect now.
DM: Ok, go for it.
(Blink effect is resolved)
DM: You vanish from the battlefield and find yourself in the ethereal plane.
Player: Very nice. Ok, that's everything. I am now ending my turn.
DM: Ok, your turn has ended. That potentially triggers the damage effect from Spirit Guardians. Let's check and see if you are located "there". Nope, it looks like you are currently located in the Ethereal Plane. No damage from Spirit Guardians. Bruce, it's now your turn.
Plenty of game features occur at the start or end of turn, which is not defined to be different than when your turn start or end so i don't see the need to make such distinction.
The line "... whenever a creature [...] ends its turn there [something happens] ..." is essentially the same as " ... at the end of each of your turns there [something happens] ... "
First, it's probably just a typo, but there is no "there" in the second case. It's just ". . . at the endof each of your turns [something happens] . . ."
The second case was just my way of explaining the similarity between both spells borrowing Spirit Guardians' wording.
The consensus in the thread on how to rule the interaction is clear to me. It's straightforward and makes sense.
The consensus in the thread on how to rule the interaction is clear to me. It's straightforward and makes sense.
I've also seen no coherent argument for why "at the end of your turn" and "when your turn ends" would be treated differently by the rules
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Plenty of game features occur at the start or end of turn, which is not defined to be different than when your turn start or end so i don't see the need to make such distinction.
The two statements are different by default. You would instead need to find some text which confirms that they are defined to be the same, not the other way around. The number of game features which use one or the other of these statements is irrelevant in determining if the two statements are different.
Whether or not you see a need to make a distinction between them is irrelevant -- the distinction exists within the text itself, therefore that is the RAW.
@up2ng when you start writing like you're doing now, that's when I prefer to step back and just leave the thread.
So just one last thing from my side: IMO, the way you're ruling it (reply #8) is worse for the player, because it forces them to use only one way to end (each of their turns) / (its turn) / (your turn) . When it's not necessary to force them thanks to how the game works: Simultaneous Effects.
The line "... whenever a creature [...] ends its turn there [something happens] ..." is essentially the same as " ... at the end of each of your turns there [something happens] ... "
First, it's probably just a typo, but there is no "there" in the second case. It's just ". . . at the endof each of your turns [something happens] . . ."
Hopefully some of our resident technical writers will chime in on this soon since this is just a grammar issue. I disagree quite strongly that these two clauses mean the same thing in the context of the game rules.
The word "end" in the blink effect is a noun. It is used in a prepositional phrase to describe in which portion "of your turn" the effect takes place. It's still taking place on your turn. In a specific portion OF your turn. This is describing where in your turn this happens -- at the end of it.
The word "end" in the description for spirit guardians is a verb. A verb is an action word. In that case, you have actually ended your turn. So, it is no longer your turn when the DM checks to see if you are affected by the spirit guardians effect.
Here's how it would play out:
DM: Alex, it's your turn.
Player: Ok, so that enemy right in front of me is still protected by Spirit Guardians and so I am still located within that AoE?
DM: Yes
Player: Hmm. Well, I have previously cast Blink, and that effect is still active. Ok, I am going to just stay where I am, and I will attack that enemy.
(attack resolved)
DM: You missed. The enemy maintains concentration on spirit guardians.
Player: Darn. Well, I do not want to subject myself to an attack of opportunity, so I am not going to use any movement on my turn. I am also out of actions, and I cannot think of anything else to do on my turn. Since I am not doing anything else, I am now at the end of my turn. I will roll for my Blink effect now.
DM: Ok, go for it.
(Blink effect is resolved)
DM: You vanish from the battlefield and find yourself in the ethereal plane.
Player: Very nice. Ok, that's everything. I am now ending my turn.
DM: Ok, your turn has ended. That potentially triggers the damage effect from Spirit Guardians. Let's check and see if you are located "there". Nope, it looks like you are currently located in the Ethereal Plane. No damage from Spirit Guardians. Bruce, it's now your turn.
I suspect you may be referencing distinctions similar to Yu-Gi-Oh!’s "End Phase" versus "actual end of the turn", but unfortunately, D&D terminology does not subdivide turns into phases. Thus, all instances of "end of the turn" with nuanced grammatical differences should refer to the same concept—or more precisely, the same timing point.
I suspect you may be referencing distinctions similar to Yu-Gi-Oh!’s "End Phase" versus "actual end of the turn", but unfortunately, D&D terminology does not subdivide turns into phases. Thus, all instances of "end of the turn" with nuanced grammatical differences should refer to the same concept—or more precisely, the same timing point.
I disagree with your "thus" here. Meaning, the first statement does not logically lead to the second one.
Yes, I agree that turns in this game are not subdivided into phases. So what? That does not logically lead to any reasonable conclusion that different statements necessarily refer to the same concept or the same timing point. It just doesn't.
The grammar is very important when it completely changes the meaning of what the words are actually saying. We don't ignore the details because they happen to sound sort of similar. We read and interpret each statement independently of each other and apply the rule in question at the appropriate time. These are two different rules which say different things.
One statement -- "at the end of your turn" -- is telling us that something happens "AT" (during / within the timeframe of) a certain moment. That moment is at a specific portion "OF" your turn. That's just what those words mean. The grammar matters.
Whose turn does this happen on? Your turn. Any time on your turn? No, it specifically happens at the end of your turn. So, nothing else can happen on your turn after this, because this is happening at the end of the turn. It might be possible for a few different things to happen at this same moment, if those other things also specifically and explicitly happen "at the end of your turn", but nothing can happen on your turn after this. This is happening at the end of your turn.
The other statement -- "whenever a creature ends its turn there" -- is telling us something totally different. In this case, something is triggered "WHENEVER" (immediately after / as soon as the action word has finished happening) a creature [ DOES something / verb / action word ]. The specific action / activity which triggers this event is the act of actually ending your turn.
Whose turn does this happen on? The next creature's turn, NOT on my turn since my turn has ended. Is there a prerequisite activity for this event to trigger? Yes. The creature must actually end its turn in order for this to trigger. Therefore, this happens after the turn has ended. It is now someone else's turn when this event is resolved.
I mean, I guess I don't know what else to tell you guys. The words say what they say. When it comes to the rules, it's all just words on a page. The rules as written refer to what's actually written there.
In basketball, a player can score at the end of the game (it's a "buzzer beater"). But when the game official ends the game, players are no longer allowed to score.
@up2ng when you start writing like you're doing now, that's when I prefer to step back and just leave the thread.
I'm really not sure exactly what you are referring to unfortunately. Feel free to send me a private message if you have a specific complaint, but I am just discussing the rules of the game here, and that does involve some amount of writing.
So just one last thing from my side: IMO, the way you're ruling it (reply #8) is worse for the player, because it forces them to use only one way to end (each of their turns) / (its turn) / (your turn) . When it's not necessary to force them thanks to how the game works: Simultaneous Effects.
I legitimately don't know what this means. I'm not sure what is being forced? Turns end when they end. Combat just goes in order where the players that control the creatures take turns one after the other. When one turn ends, the next one begins. How are there different options for ending the turn? And what is worse for the player? I don't think that there is more than one way for a turn to end -- it just ends . . . when it ends. What am I missing there? I don't get it.
If you don't want to clarify that thought, then I suppose we can just agree to disagree if there are no new ideas on the subject. I've tried to explain it a few different ways now and I don't think I'll be able to come up with any better explanations. It's literally just a case of reading the words and interpreting what they mean -- it's a dictionary problem for the individual words and a grammar lesson for the sentence structure and overall meaning of the text. There are only so many things to say about that, I guess.
I suspect you may be referencing distinctions similar to Yu-Gi-Oh!’s "End Phase" versus "actual end of the turn", but unfortunately, D&D terminology does not subdivide turns into phases. Thus, all instances of "end of the turn" with nuanced grammatical differences should refer to the same concept—or more precisely, the same timing point.
I disagree with your "thus" here. Meaning, the first statement does not logically lead to the second one.
Yes, I agree that turns in this game are not subdivided into phases. So what? That does not logically lead to any reasonable conclusion that different statements necessarily refer to the same concept or the same timing point. It just doesn't.
The grammar is very important when it completely changes the meaning of what the words are actually saying. We don't ignore the details because they happen to sound sort of similar. We read and interpret each statement independently of each other and apply the rule in question at the appropriate time. These are two different rules which say different things.
...
The grammatical difference between "at the end of X" and "when X ends" does not really exist in the way you claim.
I just checked, and 'end' has some 31 dictionary definition entries as a noun, verb and adjective. Each applies in different (somewhat overlapping) situations, some more mathematical, some more colloquial.
When talking about an object the 'end' will generally be a part of that object. "The end of the meatloaf" is usually a piece of meatloaf.
When talking about a period of time or a numerical range, then the mathematically accurate definition of 'the end' is the exact instant or numeric limit that marks the border. It is not a part of the period/range that occurs *before* the 'ending' of the period. It *is* the ending. The noun and the verb refer to the same instant.
A year ends at the instant the clock ticks from 23:99.99(repeating) to 00:00. There is no countable time in that instant which is inherently a "part of the year". It is a mathematical concept of a limit between two periods. We might speak colloquially of 'the end of a year' referring to some amount of December or November, but that is not a defined phase of a year that exists legally, just a notion that speakers of English might understand from context clues of a conversation (might be relating to cultural festivals, seasonal changes, or school terms).
So, a game turn is not like a meatloaf. There is no Action slice and Bonus Action slice, and similarly there is no End of Turn slice. This is the sort of 'End Phase' concept Argenix mentions as not existing.
A turn is also not exactly like a year, in that there is no pre-defined instant where we know the turn will end. A creature may have taken all their action/movement/object interactions etc. and still their turn continues if they want to search through their features and inventory for any other free action that does not require an Action. A turn only ends when the creature's controller declares they are ending the turn. It is the act of 'ending' the turn which creates the 'end' of the turn. The noun does not exist until the verb verbs.
A player does not have the logical power to declare "I am now at the end of my turn", because that instant does not exist until they say "I am ending my turn". There is no logical concept of the noun end of a turn that exists without the verb ending of the turn. They refer to the same instant.
As that instant arrives, all things trigger simultaneously for both the ending of the turn and the end of the turn, because they are the same. The controller of that turn gets to choose the triggering of the simultaneous events. Once all triggered events are complete then the next turn begins.
The simultaneous events rule is (IMHO) another example of a truly horrible rule. If the player created both situations, I can see giving them say in which order the occur - but in the example above an enemy created one situation, the player created the other - giving final say to the player (target if you will) is not the way I would have done it. I would have worded the rule as 'the DM determines which is resolved first, but they both occur as they were simultaneous'.
Personally I would have written it to say, both events occur if simultaneous. They can be resolved in any order the DM wishes, but they both occur. Two people with prepared actions to shoot at each other on the same trigger, both get their shots off. You can resolve whichever one you want first, but BOTH get their shots off. If both end up dead, so be it. Obviously that's not what they wrote, and I believe that to be in error.
As a DM I would rule it... yes you Blink to the Ethereal Plane, but as you do so, take x damage for ending your turn in the damage radius of someone else's spell. If you survived the damage, great you are on the Ethereal Plane. If you did not survive the damage, upon arriving on the Ethereal Plane deceased, causes the spell to end and shunts you back to the material plane (per the spell description). Both events occurred because they were simultaneous.
If the player complains, I would simply point out - you should have left the area of effect on your turn - but you didn't, you chose to end your turn in the area so here's your damage.
How you rule it at your table is for you to decide, but at my table, simultaneous means simultaneous. They both occur at the same time.
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Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
A year ends at the instant the clock ticks from 23:99.99(repeating) to 00:00. There is no countable time in that instant which is inherently a "part of the year". It is a mathematical concept of a limit between two periods. We might speak colloquially of 'the end of a year' referring to some amount of December or November, but that is not a defined phase of a year that exists legally, just a notion that speakers of English might understand from context clues of a conversation (might be relating to cultural festivals, seasonal changes, or school terms).
This is a fine argument. I don't agree with any of it.
If we're bringing research of general topics into the discussion, let me present some of my own:
Hey Google, "is the end of the game part of the game?"
Google AI: "Yes, the end of a game is generally considered part of the game.It represents the culmination of the playing experience and often involves resolving a conflict, achieving a goal, or experiencing a final outcome. The specific nature of the ending can significantly impact the overall experience and lasting impression of the game."
Hey Google, "Is the end of a period of time part of that time?"
Google AI: "Yes, the end of a period of time is generally considered to be part of that period of time. The term "period" itself implies a continuous span, and its conclusion is an integral part of that continuous span. For example, if you are talking about the "school year period," the last day of school would be considered the end of that period, and it would be part of the school year period."
Hey Google, "Is the end of a book part of that book?"
Google AI: "Yes, the end of a book, or at least the concluding part, is considered part of the book. This can include an epilogue, afterword, or postscript, which serve to wrap up the story, provide additional context, or offer a final note."
I could go on, but we get the idea. Grammatically, this is just what the phrase means. The "end of your turn" is a certain specific portion "of your turn". Generally, "of your turn" cannot mean "after your turn" or "outside of your turn". It very explicitly is talking about a portion of your turn. It is the portion of your turn that occurs at the moment before it ends. Usually, nothing special happens at this portion of the turn -- the player will just end their turn. But when a feature designates that something happens AT the end of your turn, then that's when it actually happens. It is NOT triggered at that moment. It actually happens AT that moment. This happens on your turn, and it must be the last thing that happens on your turn since it is happening at the end of it.
Since your examples seemed to include "the end of the year", let's examine a common conversation between two people who might use that phrase:
"Hey, did you go to the boss's party?"
"Yes."
"When was that?"
"It was a New Years Eve party. It happened at the end of last year."
So, this party happened during a portion of last year. Right at the end of it.
A player does not have the logical power to declare "I am now at the end of my turn", because that instant does not exist until they say "I am ending my turn". There is no logical concept of the noun end of a turn that exists without the verb ending of the turn. They refer to the same instant.
They absolutely do have this power. It is their turn. They control their own turn, and they can do whatever they want on their own turn within the rules. If the player will not be doing anything else on their turn, then they can move forward in resolving the events that occur at the end of their turn. See my dialog between the player and the DM in one of my previous posts. Of course, once those events get resolved, the player cannot do anything more on their turn since we have reached the end of it.
Alternatively, another way that it might play out is like this:
Player: Darn. Well, I do not want to subject myself to an attack of opportunity, so I am not going to use any movement on my turn. I am also out of actions, and I cannot think of anything else to do on my turn. Since I am not doing anything else, I am now ending my turn."
DM: Ok, sounds good. Before your turn ends, go ahead and roll for the Blink effect at the end of your turn. The Blink effect is not optional so we cannot skip over it. It happens at the end of your turn.
Player: Oh, ok.
(Blink effect is resolved)
DM: You vanish from the battlefield and find yourself in the ethereal plane.
Player: Very nice.
DM: Ok, your turn has ended. That potentially triggers the damage effect from Spirit Guardians. Let's check and see if you are located "there". Nope, it looks like you are currently located in the Ethereal Plane. No damage from Spirit Guardians. Bruce, it's now your turn.
Just to chime in grammatically up2ng is correct that end of your turn is part of your turn. Everyone who has said to use the rules for simultaneous effects seems to agree since they imply the creature with blink active would get to choose, therefore, in that interpretation, it is that creature's turn. The prepositional phrase "of your turn" means that the noun "end" is part "of your turn".
Honestly the phrase "when a creature ends its turn", based on the arguments above, would still be part of the creature's turn. Ends is a simple present verb meaning that the action is being taken in the present. Based on the arguments above the end of something is also part of that thing. If an action is taken that finishes something it has to be taken in the same period of time as the thing it's finishing. So when a creature ends its turn has to be last thing it does on it's turn. If it meant to refer to when the turn is completed it would be in the present perfect tense which would read "when a creature has ended their turn". The present perfect tense indicates that the action is completed in the present instead of being taken in the present.
Sometimes being technically correct is not being the best kind of correct.
In a perfect world all game effects would use the exact same wording, but the game has many authors. The RAW is indeed ambiguous even if it is the smallest amount of ambiguousness that can exist.
So run it how you want at your table. But I'll stick to the way that doesn't require 3 paragraphs of semantic deconstruction.
Blink states that "at the end of each of your turns for the duration" you may go in the ethereal plane; but what happens if you end your turn inside an area that affects you if you end your turn into it, for example a burning surface, or an enemy's Spirit Guardians? will you be affected by that before vanishing, or you vanish before any damage gets dealt?
We don't talk about Kobo...
In my opinion, the timeframe of the "end of your turn" occurs before your turn has actually ended. So, Blink would happen first, at the end of your turn. Then, when your turn has ended, you would check to see if you are affected by Spirit Guardians which occurs if you are in that area whenever you "end your turn there". So, you would not be affected by Spirit Guardians since you are in the Ethereal Plane when your turn ends.
Regarding Simultaneous Effects, If two or more things happen at the same time on a turn, the person at the game table—player or DM—whose turn it is decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the start of a player character’s turn, the player decides which of the effects happens first.
I think this is the right answer.
Why do you guys think that these are simultaneous events?
The blink effect occurs on your turn. It is the last thing that happens on your turn, right at the end of it.
The application of the spirit guardians damage happens when triggered, which occurs when your turn has already ended.
Blink
Spirit Guardians
Plague is correct. The Simultaneous Effects rule would apply
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Because they are.
- Blink: "... at the end of each of your turns ..."
- Spirit Guardians (spell's effect simplified to focus on the important part): "... and whenever a creature enters the Emanation or ends its turn there ..."
The line "... whenever a creature [...] ends its turn there [something happens] ..." is essentially the same as " ... at the end of each of your turns there [something happens] ... "
The rule quoted by @Plaguescarred was an optional rule in XGtE, now incorporated into the 2024 PHB. Before having it, I guess most DM were deciding what to do, maybe doing this, on the fly or perhaps randomly. Who knows. Good to have this rule in the books.
First, it's probably just a typo, but there is no "there" in the second case. It's just ". . . at the end of each of your turns [something happens] . . ."
Hopefully some of our resident technical writers will chime in on this soon since this is just a grammar issue. I disagree quite strongly that these two clauses mean the same thing in the context of the game rules.
The word "end" in the blink effect is a noun. It is used in a prepositional phrase to describe in which portion "of your turn" the effect takes place. It's still taking place on your turn. In a specific portion OF your turn. This is describing where in your turn this happens -- at the end of it.
The word "end" in the description for spirit guardians is a verb. A verb is an action word. In that case, you have actually ended your turn. So, it is no longer your turn when the DM checks to see if you are affected by the spirit guardians effect.
Here's how it would play out:
DM: Alex, it's your turn.
Player: Ok, so that enemy right in front of me is still protected by Spirit Guardians and so I am still located within that AoE?
DM: Yes
Player: Hmm. Well, I have previously cast Blink, and that effect is still active. Ok, I am going to just stay where I am, and I will attack that enemy.
(attack resolved)
DM: You missed. The enemy maintains concentration on spirit guardians.
Player: Darn. Well, I do not want to subject myself to an attack of opportunity, so I am not going to use any movement on my turn. I am also out of actions, and I cannot think of anything else to do on my turn. Since I am not doing anything else, I am now at the end of my turn. I will roll for my Blink effect now.
DM: Ok, go for it.
(Blink effect is resolved)
DM: You vanish from the battlefield and find yourself in the ethereal plane.
Player: Very nice. Ok, that's everything. I am now ending my turn.
DM: Ok, your turn has ended. That potentially triggers the damage effect from Spirit Guardians. Let's check and see if you are located "there". Nope, it looks like you are currently located in the Ethereal Plane. No damage from Spirit Guardians. Bruce, it's now your turn.
Plenty of game features occur at the start or end of turn, which is not defined to be different than when your turn start or end so i don't see the need to make such distinction.
The second case was just my way of explaining the similarity between both spells borrowing Spirit Guardians' wording.
The consensus in the thread on how to rule the interaction is clear to me. It's straightforward and makes sense.
I've also seen no coherent argument for why "at the end of your turn" and "when your turn ends" would be treated differently by the rules
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
[Redacted]
The two statements are different by default. You would instead need to find some text which confirms that they are defined to be the same, not the other way around. The number of game features which use one or the other of these statements is irrelevant in determining if the two statements are different.
Whether or not you see a need to make a distinction between them is irrelevant -- the distinction exists within the text itself, therefore that is the RAW.
I agree with this.
Of course, as we know, "consensus" is not the same as "correct".
The text says what it says:
Some features might describe something happening "at the end of your turn".
Other features might describe something happening "when your turn ends" or "when you've ended your turn".
These are not the same thing and should not be treated as simultaneous events.
@up2ng when you start writing like you're doing now, that's when I prefer to step back and just leave the thread.
So just one last thing from my side: IMO, the way you're ruling it (reply #8) is worse for the player, because it forces them to use only one way to end (each of their turns) / (its turn) / (your turn) . When it's not necessary to force them thanks to how the game works: Simultaneous Effects.
I suspect you may be referencing distinctions similar to Yu-Gi-Oh!’s "End Phase" versus "actual end of the turn", but unfortunately, D&D terminology does not subdivide turns into phases. Thus, all instances of "end of the turn" with nuanced grammatical differences should refer to the same concept—or more precisely, the same timing point.
I disagree with your "thus" here. Meaning, the first statement does not logically lead to the second one.
Yes, I agree that turns in this game are not subdivided into phases. So what? That does not logically lead to any reasonable conclusion that different statements necessarily refer to the same concept or the same timing point. It just doesn't.
The grammar is very important when it completely changes the meaning of what the words are actually saying. We don't ignore the details because they happen to sound sort of similar. We read and interpret each statement independently of each other and apply the rule in question at the appropriate time. These are two different rules which say different things.
One statement -- "at the end of your turn" -- is telling us that something happens "AT" (during / within the timeframe of) a certain moment. That moment is at a specific portion "OF" your turn. That's just what those words mean. The grammar matters.
Whose turn does this happen on? Your turn. Any time on your turn? No, it specifically happens at the end of your turn. So, nothing else can happen on your turn after this, because this is happening at the end of the turn. It might be possible for a few different things to happen at this same moment, if those other things also specifically and explicitly happen "at the end of your turn", but nothing can happen on your turn after this. This is happening at the end of your turn.
The other statement -- "whenever a creature ends its turn there" -- is telling us something totally different. In this case, something is triggered "WHENEVER" (immediately after / as soon as the action word has finished happening) a creature [ DOES something / verb / action word ]. The specific action / activity which triggers this event is the act of actually ending your turn.
Whose turn does this happen on? The next creature's turn, NOT on my turn since my turn has ended. Is there a prerequisite activity for this event to trigger? Yes. The creature must actually end its turn in order for this to trigger. Therefore, this happens after the turn has ended. It is now someone else's turn when this event is resolved.
I mean, I guess I don't know what else to tell you guys. The words say what they say. When it comes to the rules, it's all just words on a page. The rules as written refer to what's actually written there.
In basketball, a player can score at the end of the game (it's a "buzzer beater"). But when the game official ends the game, players are no longer allowed to score.
I'm really not sure exactly what you are referring to unfortunately. Feel free to send me a private message if you have a specific complaint, but I am just discussing the rules of the game here, and that does involve some amount of writing.
I legitimately don't know what this means. I'm not sure what is being forced? Turns end when they end. Combat just goes in order where the players that control the creatures take turns one after the other. When one turn ends, the next one begins. How are there different options for ending the turn? And what is worse for the player? I don't think that there is more than one way for a turn to end -- it just ends . . . when it ends. What am I missing there? I don't get it.
If you don't want to clarify that thought, then I suppose we can just agree to disagree if there are no new ideas on the subject. I've tried to explain it a few different ways now and I don't think I'll be able to come up with any better explanations. It's literally just a case of reading the words and interpreting what they mean -- it's a dictionary problem for the individual words and a grammar lesson for the sentence structure and overall meaning of the text. There are only so many things to say about that, I guess.
The grammatical difference between "at the end of X" and "when X ends" does not really exist in the way you claim.
I just checked, and 'end' has some 31 dictionary definition entries as a noun, verb and adjective. Each applies in different (somewhat overlapping) situations, some more mathematical, some more colloquial.
When talking about an object the 'end' will generally be a part of that object. "The end of the meatloaf" is usually a piece of meatloaf.
When talking about a period of time or a numerical range, then the mathematically accurate definition of 'the end' is the exact instant or numeric limit that marks the border. It is not a part of the period/range that occurs *before* the 'ending' of the period. It *is* the ending. The noun and the verb refer to the same instant.
A year ends at the instant the clock ticks from 23:99.99(repeating) to 00:00. There is no countable time in that instant which is inherently a "part of the year". It is a mathematical concept of a limit between two periods. We might speak colloquially of 'the end of a year' referring to some amount of December or November, but that is not a defined phase of a year that exists legally, just a notion that speakers of English might understand from context clues of a conversation (might be relating to cultural festivals, seasonal changes, or school terms).
So, a game turn is not like a meatloaf. There is no Action slice and Bonus Action slice, and similarly there is no End of Turn slice. This is the sort of 'End Phase' concept Argenix mentions as not existing.
A turn is also not exactly like a year, in that there is no pre-defined instant where we know the turn will end. A creature may have taken all their action/movement/object interactions etc. and still their turn continues if they want to search through their features and inventory for any other free action that does not require an Action. A turn only ends when the creature's controller declares they are ending the turn. It is the act of 'ending' the turn which creates the 'end' of the turn. The noun does not exist until the verb verbs.
A player does not have the logical power to declare "I am now at the end of my turn", because that instant does not exist until they say "I am ending my turn". There is no logical concept of the noun end of a turn that exists without the verb ending of the turn. They refer to the same instant.
As that instant arrives, all things trigger simultaneously for both the ending of the turn and the end of the turn, because they are the same. The controller of that turn gets to choose the triggering of the simultaneous events. Once all triggered events are complete then the next turn begins.
The simultaneous events rule is (IMHO) another example of a truly horrible rule. If the player created both situations, I can see giving them say in which order the occur - but in the example above an enemy created one situation, the player created the other - giving final say to the player (target if you will) is not the way I would have done it. I would have worded the rule as 'the DM determines which is resolved first, but they both occur as they were simultaneous'.
Personally I would have written it to say, both events occur if simultaneous. They can be resolved in any order the DM wishes, but they both occur. Two people with prepared actions to shoot at each other on the same trigger, both get their shots off. You can resolve whichever one you want first, but BOTH get their shots off. If both end up dead, so be it. Obviously that's not what they wrote, and I believe that to be in error.
As a DM I would rule it... yes you Blink to the Ethereal Plane, but as you do so, take x damage for ending your turn in the damage radius of someone else's spell. If you survived the damage, great you are on the Ethereal Plane. If you did not survive the damage, upon arriving on the Ethereal Plane deceased, causes the spell to end and shunts you back to the material plane (per the spell description). Both events occurred because they were simultaneous.
If the player complains, I would simply point out - you should have left the area of effect on your turn - but you didn't, you chose to end your turn in the area so here's your damage.
How you rule it at your table is for you to decide, but at my table, simultaneous means simultaneous. They both occur at the same time.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
This is a fine argument. I don't agree with any of it.
If we're bringing research of general topics into the discussion, let me present some of my own:
Hey Google, "is the end of the game part of the game?"
Google AI: "Yes, the end of a game is generally considered part of the game. It represents the culmination of the playing experience and often involves resolving a conflict, achieving a goal, or experiencing a final outcome. The specific nature of the ending can significantly impact the overall experience and lasting impression of the game."
Hey Google, "Is the end of a period of time part of that time?"
Google AI: "Yes, the end of a period of time is generally considered to be part of that period of time. The term "period" itself implies a continuous span, and its conclusion is an integral part of that continuous span. For example, if you are talking about the "school year period," the last day of school would be considered the end of that period, and it would be part of the school year period."
Hey Google, "Is the end of a book part of that book?"
Google AI: "Yes, the end of a book, or at least the concluding part, is considered part of the book. This can include an epilogue, afterword, or postscript, which serve to wrap up the story, provide additional context, or offer a final note."
I could go on, but we get the idea. Grammatically, this is just what the phrase means. The "end of your turn" is a certain specific portion "of your turn". Generally, "of your turn" cannot mean "after your turn" or "outside of your turn". It very explicitly is talking about a portion of your turn. It is the portion of your turn that occurs at the moment before it ends. Usually, nothing special happens at this portion of the turn -- the player will just end their turn. But when a feature designates that something happens AT the end of your turn, then that's when it actually happens. It is NOT triggered at that moment. It actually happens AT that moment. This happens on your turn, and it must be the last thing that happens on your turn since it is happening at the end of it.
Since your examples seemed to include "the end of the year", let's examine a common conversation between two people who might use that phrase:
"Hey, did you go to the boss's party?"
"Yes."
"When was that?"
"It was a New Years Eve party. It happened at the end of last year."
So, this party happened during a portion of last year. Right at the end of it.
They absolutely do have this power. It is their turn. They control their own turn, and they can do whatever they want on their own turn within the rules. If the player will not be doing anything else on their turn, then they can move forward in resolving the events that occur at the end of their turn. See my dialog between the player and the DM in one of my previous posts. Of course, once those events get resolved, the player cannot do anything more on their turn since we have reached the end of it.
Alternatively, another way that it might play out is like this:
Player: Darn. Well, I do not want to subject myself to an attack of opportunity, so I am not going to use any movement on my turn. I am also out of actions, and I cannot think of anything else to do on my turn. Since I am not doing anything else, I am now ending my turn."
DM: Ok, sounds good. Before your turn ends, go ahead and roll for the Blink effect at the end of your turn. The Blink effect is not optional so we cannot skip over it. It happens at the end of your turn.
Player: Oh, ok.
(Blink effect is resolved)
DM: You vanish from the battlefield and find yourself in the ethereal plane.
Player: Very nice.
DM: Ok, your turn has ended. That potentially triggers the damage effect from Spirit Guardians. Let's check and see if you are located "there". Nope, it looks like you are currently located in the Ethereal Plane. No damage from Spirit Guardians. Bruce, it's now your turn.
Just to chime in grammatically up2ng is correct that end of your turn is part of your turn. Everyone who has said to use the rules for simultaneous effects seems to agree since they imply the creature with blink active would get to choose, therefore, in that interpretation, it is that creature's turn. The prepositional phrase "of your turn" means that the noun "end" is part "of your turn".
Honestly the phrase "when a creature ends its turn", based on the arguments above, would still be part of the creature's turn. Ends is a simple present verb meaning that the action is being taken in the present. Based on the arguments above the end of something is also part of that thing. If an action is taken that finishes something it has to be taken in the same period of time as the thing it's finishing. So when a creature ends its turn has to be last thing it does on it's turn. If it meant to refer to when the turn is completed it would be in the present perfect tense which would read "when a creature has ended their turn". The present perfect tense indicates that the action is completed in the present instead of being taken in the present.
Sometimes being technically correct is not being the best kind of correct.
In a perfect world all game effects would use the exact same wording, but the game has many authors. The RAW is indeed ambiguous even if it is the smallest amount of ambiguousness that can exist.
So run it how you want at your table. But I'll stick to the way that doesn't require 3 paragraphs of semantic deconstruction.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm