The language used in the magic item Astromancy Archive seems to suggest that saving throws made by other creatures are, in fact, visible to the player. I tried to use my Archive on a player's saving throw because A) I can see the character, and B) that character was making a saving throw. But my DM said my character couldn't possibly know that the other character was making a saving throw, thus my Archive couldn't be used. The effect causing the saving throw was a bit like charm person (no stated visual cue), but the language of the Archive suggests that the saving throw is, by its very nature, perceptible. It requires you to see the creature and states nothing about your knowledge of the saving throw other that allowing you to take the reaction "after you see the roll", as if it is obvious that you can see the roll because you can see the creature making the roll.
Class features like Subtle Spell imply that magic with components is recognizable. Something like an automatic spell effect on an item or area could conceivably be undetectable, and if you were devising such a "charm trap," designing it that way would make it more effective. So depending on the context here I could see myself ruling the same way.
If I were arguing the other side, I might point out that the whole point of this divination-themed item is that you see things others don't. Typically the kind of bonus it grants is flavored as a "you saw this coming" kind of thing. So if anyone would be able to see this thing go off, it would be you.
The text in Tasha's RAW just says that when a creature you can see within 30' makes an attack roll, ability check or saving throw then you can use the feature. However, in game, the characters do NOT know when a creature makes a saving throw. A saving throw is a game mechanic. In game, the character is attempting to resist the effects of a spell or similar effect. In some cases, the rules specifically state that the character does NOT know that they have been affected by a spell. If the character being affected does not know, how can the character wielding the Astromancy Archive know? Using the archive requires the character to use their reaction in response to a visible stimulus.
p204 "Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell at all."
As a DM, personally, I would rule that if the character wielding the Archive is unaware of the saving throw being made ... most likely in a case with no spell components so that the casting is not visible ... then the effect of the archive could not be used. I would tend to use a similar interpretation to that applied to counterspell. If the character has no way to know that a saving throw is being made - no visible spell being cast - no visible effect - and the target character isn't even aware of it then I would rule that the feature of the archive could not be used. However, that is just how I would house rule it.
RAW, all it says is that a creature within 30', that you can see, makes an attack roll, ability check or saving throw without explaining how the character would be aware of it.
In addition, if allowed, it opens up the awkward situation where a charm or suggestion or hex is subtly cast on a target, the target rolls its save, the other character uses their reaction to modify the die roll, the target still fails and somehow the target AND the character who used the reaction remain completely unaware that anything has happened. The character who used their reaction and one of the charges from the device has to wonder to themselves "WHY did I just do that? Nothing happened!" The character with the Archive can't turn around and say to the target character "Oh! You just made a saving throw!" since a saving throw isn't a character action, it is a game mechanic to resolve certain game interactions.
TL;DR - how I would run it
1) Attack rolls, ability rolls and saving throws are game mechanics used to resolve game interactions based on actions and are NOT visible to the characters.
2) A creature making an attack, attempting to do something in game that they either tell others about or is visible when they perform the action, or a creature who is a target of a known spell being cast ARE visible to the characters.
3) The Archive can be used to affect the attack rolls, ability checks and saving throws of events in game which the character might reasonably be aware of.
4) RAW the character could use the archive on the saving throw of a character within 30' but then they have the issue that the player has to pretend that for the character that it never happened while still expending charges and a reaction. The character doesn't know a saving throw was made, the character doesn't know whether the save was successful or not, the characters may not know what effect if any the character that rolled the save is now under.
The lack of components for a spell hides the casting of a spell, not the effect. And the effect often comes after a saving throw is already made, so I feel that the effect's visibility shouldn't dictate the saving throw's visibility either. Personally, I'm going to make such knowledge public when I'm DM, but we're generally concerned with RAW. The Player's Handbook only cites magic to read a creatures thoughts (supposedly referring to Detect Thoughts, which requires no save) as an imperceptible effect, but the sage advice cites suggestion (but not charm person) as an imperceptible effect if you fail the save. Can another creature see the save and be aware that it's being made?
Another discussion we're having at my table is whether or not a creature is aware of saving throws it makes against imperceptible effects. If the creature is unaware, then we can pull a lot of shenanigans (that I'd rather not be able to get away with) against creatures that now can't use their Legendary Resistances.
The lack of components for a spell hides the casting of a spell, not the effect. And the effect often comes after a saving throw is already made, so I feel that the effect's visibility shouldn't dictate the saving throw's visibility either. Personally, I'm going to make such knowledge public when I'm DM, but we're generally concerned with RAW. The Player's Handbook only cites magic to read a creatures thoughts (supposedly referring to Detect Thoughts, which requires no save) as an imperceptible effect, but the sage advice cites suggestion (but not charm person) as an imperceptible effect if you fail the save. Can another creature see the save and be aware that it's being made?
Another discussion we're having at my table is whether or not a creature is aware of saving throws it makes against imperceptible effects. If the creature is unaware, then we can pull a lot of shenanigans (that I'd rather not be able to get away with) against creatures that now can't use their Legendary Resistances.
The last one is easy to answer since it is in the rules. NO. A creature is not aware of making a saving throw, it might only be aware of noticeable effects not game mechanics.
p204 "Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell at all."
P.S. As far as I am concerned - if the targeted creature can remain unaware of a spell effect and associated saving throw then I see no way for some other character to somehow be aware of it (but I mentioned that in my post above :) ).
The description for the item says "When a creature you can see makes a saving throw..." not "when you see a creature make a saving throw...". The first indicates you see the object (a creature). The second indicates you see the action (attack roll or saving throw). Attack rolls and Saving Throws are game mechanics, representing actions like swinging a sword, dodging a vial of acid hurled by catapult, or resisting a poison. Some are going to be visible (dodging said catapulted acid), and some are not (resisting a poison). But since the visual requirement is that you must see the creature, not the action, I would rule the Archive grants the knowledge of even unseen actions (ie attack rolls and saving throws) made be visible creatures in range.
The mechanics of that knowledge would, because of the items description, allow you to see the roll, but not the effect applied on success or failure. So you might not know that the creature is being targeted by a spell or trap or anything else, but you know they are resisting/dodging something
I keep hearing mention of game mechanics being separate from character knowledge, but when a game mechanic like a spell states "you", it doesn't really distinguish the player from the character, basically treating the player and their character as one and the same. I like it that way, as it makes it easier to get into character, but this gives me the impression that the character does understand hit points and saving throws, and that they prepare the spells and features that they use with this knowledge in mind. The only mention I've found in the DMG about the separation of player knowledge and character knowledge is this blurb in Chapter 8 about players trying to read the DM's behavior to figure out whether their characters are about to face a powerful monster or whether the door the DM won't shut up about is important.
Yeah, just going to have to go along with DM on that.
Personally, I would allow the effect to apply to the save even if the character is unaware that the save is happening. It goes against rule of fun to prevent PCs from using their features without a mechanical reason why. Mind related saves are basically always going to be invisible, if the effect isn't supposed to work on them, it would say.
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The language used in the magic item Astromancy Archive seems to suggest that saving throws made by other creatures are, in fact, visible to the player. I tried to use my Archive on a player's saving throw because A) I can see the character, and B) that character was making a saving throw. But my DM said my character couldn't possibly know that the other character was making a saving throw, thus my Archive couldn't be used. The effect causing the saving throw was a bit like charm person (no stated visual cue), but the language of the Archive suggests that the saving throw is, by its very nature, perceptible. It requires you to see the creature and states nothing about your knowledge of the saving throw other that allowing you to take the reaction "after you see the roll", as if it is obvious that you can see the roll because you can see the creature making the roll.
Class features like Subtle Spell imply that magic with components is recognizable. Something like an automatic spell effect on an item or area could conceivably be undetectable, and if you were devising such a "charm trap," designing it that way would make it more effective. So depending on the context here I could see myself ruling the same way.
If I were arguing the other side, I might point out that the whole point of this divination-themed item is that you see things others don't. Typically the kind of bonus it grants is flavored as a "you saw this coming" kind of thing. So if anyone would be able to see this thing go off, it would be you.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
It is a DM call.
The text in Tasha's RAW just says that when a creature you can see within 30' makes an attack roll, ability check or saving throw then you can use the feature. However, in game, the characters do NOT know when a creature makes a saving throw. A saving throw is a game mechanic. In game, the character is attempting to resist the effects of a spell or similar effect. In some cases, the rules specifically state that the character does NOT know that they have been affected by a spell. If the character being affected does not know, how can the character wielding the Astromancy Archive know? Using the archive requires the character to use their reaction in response to a visible stimulus.
p204 "Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell at all."
As a DM, personally, I would rule that if the character wielding the Archive is unaware of the saving throw being made ... most likely in a case with no spell components so that the casting is not visible ... then the effect of the archive could not be used. I would tend to use a similar interpretation to that applied to counterspell. If the character has no way to know that a saving throw is being made - no visible spell being cast - no visible effect - and the target character isn't even aware of it then I would rule that the feature of the archive could not be used. However, that is just how I would house rule it.
RAW, all it says is that a creature within 30', that you can see, makes an attack roll, ability check or saving throw without explaining how the character would be aware of it.
In addition, if allowed, it opens up the awkward situation where a charm or suggestion or hex is subtly cast on a target, the target rolls its save, the other character uses their reaction to modify the die roll, the target still fails and somehow the target AND the character who used the reaction remain completely unaware that anything has happened. The character who used their reaction and one of the charges from the device has to wonder to themselves "WHY did I just do that? Nothing happened!" The character with the Archive can't turn around and say to the target character "Oh! You just made a saving throw!" since a saving throw isn't a character action, it is a game mechanic to resolve certain game interactions.
TL;DR - how I would run it
1) Attack rolls, ability rolls and saving throws are game mechanics used to resolve game interactions based on actions and are NOT visible to the characters.
2) A creature making an attack, attempting to do something in game that they either tell others about or is visible when they perform the action, or a creature who is a target of a known spell being cast ARE visible to the characters.
3) The Archive can be used to affect the attack rolls, ability checks and saving throws of events in game which the character might reasonably be aware of.
4) RAW the character could use the archive on the saving throw of a character within 30' but then they have the issue that the player has to pretend that for the character that it never happened while still expending charges and a reaction. The character doesn't know a saving throw was made, the character doesn't know whether the save was successful or not, the characters may not know what effect if any the character that rolled the save is now under.
The lack of components for a spell hides the casting of a spell, not the effect. And the effect often comes after a saving throw is already made, so I feel that the effect's visibility shouldn't dictate the saving throw's visibility either. Personally, I'm going to make such knowledge public when I'm DM, but we're generally concerned with RAW. The Player's Handbook only cites magic to read a creatures thoughts (supposedly referring to Detect Thoughts, which requires no save) as an imperceptible effect, but the sage advice cites suggestion (but not charm person) as an imperceptible effect if you fail the save. Can another creature see the save and be aware that it's being made?
Another discussion we're having at my table is whether or not a creature is aware of saving throws it makes against imperceptible effects. If the creature is unaware, then we can pull a lot of shenanigans (that I'd rather not be able to get away with) against creatures that now can't use their Legendary Resistances.
The last one is easy to answer since it is in the rules. NO. A creature is not aware of making a saving throw, it might only be aware of noticeable effects not game mechanics.
p204 "Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell at all."
P.S. As far as I am concerned - if the targeted creature can remain unaware of a spell effect and associated saving throw then I see no way for some other character to somehow be aware of it (but I mentioned that in my post above :) ).
The description for the item says "When a creature you can see makes a saving throw..." not "when you see a creature make a saving throw...". The first indicates you see the object (a creature). The second indicates you see the action (attack roll or saving throw). Attack rolls and Saving Throws are game mechanics, representing actions like swinging a sword, dodging a vial of acid hurled by catapult, or resisting a poison. Some are going to be visible (dodging said catapulted acid), and some are not (resisting a poison). But since the visual requirement is that you must see the creature, not the action, I would rule the Archive grants the knowledge of even unseen actions (ie attack rolls and saving throws) made be visible creatures in range.
The mechanics of that knowledge would, because of the items description, allow you to see the roll, but not the effect applied on success or failure. So you might not know that the creature is being targeted by a spell or trap or anything else, but you know they are resisting/dodging something
I keep hearing mention of game mechanics being separate from character knowledge, but when a game mechanic like a spell states "you", it doesn't really distinguish the player from the character, basically treating the player and their character as one and the same. I like it that way, as it makes it easier to get into character, but this gives me the impression that the character does understand hit points and saving throws, and that they prepare the spells and features that they use with this knowledge in mind. The only mention I've found in the DMG about the separation of player knowledge and character knowledge is this blurb in Chapter 8 about players trying to read the DM's behavior to figure out whether their characters are about to face a powerful monster or whether the door the DM won't shut up about is important.
Yeah, just going to have to go along with DM on that.
Personally, I would allow the effect to apply to the save even if the character is unaware that the save is happening. It goes against rule of fun to prevent PCs from using their features without a mechanical reason why. Mind related saves are basically always going to be invisible, if the effect isn't supposed to work on them, it would say.