My party was captured by a group of Kobolds and was able to distract their leader which drew all the attention of the minions away from them. The way everyone has positioned themselves the rogue of the party found himself behind a group of four kobolds (no other party members within 5 feet of them). He took advantage of the distraction and preformed an attack on two of the four kobolds with his daggers. The discussion came up if he was allowed to have Sneak Attack damage. The opinion was yes since everyone was looking the other way and the rogue could reasonably say it was a reasonable request. Others pointed out that the rogue should make a STEALTH check against their Passive Wisdom first to see he can get a 'Suprise' on the two targets and get the free attack due to their distractions but this did not fall into Sneak Attack damage since no party member was within five feet nor did the rogue have advantage for the attack.
I feel this situation could go in either direction of applying the rule but I wanted to get a second (ok, the third opinion since I already had two) opinion on best handling the rules of the game to this scenario.
If you read the rules on Surprise, I think you could rule that out. It hinges on being unaware of any enenies or having no pre-existing threatening conditions that would make you on guard. Turning your back on a Rogue? I would definitely allow a Stealth roll to attempt a Sneak Attack set up. Probably more so if the Rogue ran into some cover before sniping with a range weapon.
Did the rogue have Advantage on the attack or was the target of the attack also within 5ft of someone else hostile to it? If yes to one or both of those, then yes, they get Sneak Attack damage. Surprise technically doesn't have anything to do with it, although an easy way to get Advantage is to be hidden from your target. Hiding in combat is pretty hard to do and the default rules don't take facing into account, meaning enemies in combat are considered to have full view all the way around themselves. Facing is an optional rule in the Dungeon Master's Guide that your DM could use, but it't not a rule by default.
If you read the rules on Surprise, I think you could rule that out. It hinges on being unaware of any enenies or having no pre-existing threatening conditions that would make you on guard. Turning your back on a Rogue? I would definitely allow a Stealth roll to attempt a Sneak Attack set up. Probably more so if the Rogue ran into some cover before sniping with a range weapon.
I see what you're saying. Yeah, those four kobolds were distracted because their leader was pushed into a pool of water that contained a Sea Spawn so their attention was forward to the Rogue.
Did the rogue have Advantage on the attack or was the target of the attack also within 5ft of someone else hostile to it? If yes to one or both of those, then yes, they get Sneak Attack damage. Surprise technically doesn't have anything to do with it, although an easy way to get Advantage is to be hidden from your target. Hiding in combat is pretty hard to do and the default rules don't take facing into account, meaning enemies in combat are considered to have full view all the way around themselves. Facing is an optional rule in the Dungeon Master's Guide that your DM could use, but it't not a rule by default.
Yeah, you are correct and maybe the answer was giving the rogue the option to making a Stealth Check to get the sneak attack damage come into play.
Narratively I can how each could apply I was just want to make sure what the rules would allow.
There's a couple of different rules tangled up in this situation so I'm going to take this one step at a time.
If group wasn't already in a combat situation, the DM should've called for initiative as soon as the Rogue declared their attack. An unspoken assumption of the combat rules is that you're not supposed to take pot shots out of initiative order.
If the distracted Kobolds didn't believe they were in danger and hadn't noticed the Rogue when the DM called for initiative, they should started combat surprised. This doesn't affect Sneak Attack but could affect class features like Assassinate or prevent the Kobolds from taking reactions.
Normally the Rogue would have to make a Dexterity (Stealth) check creep up on the Kobolds without being noticed, but ultimately the DM is in charge of deciding whether a creature's passive Perception applies to a situation. It's perfectly valid for the DM to decide there's too much background noise and the Kobolds are too distracted to have any chance of noticing the Rogue.
If everything went well and the Kobolds still hadn't noticed the Rogue when the Rogue attacked, the Rogue would have advantage. That's sufficient to use Sneak Attack.
Combat rules are for combat. If you're not in combat, you don't have to follow the rules of combat. For this reason, making attacks outside of combat - especially involving Stealth - often have these kinds of issues. The DM needs to either call for initiative at that point and basically follow IC's steps above, or you continue in 'Narrative Mode' and the DM just adjudicates what happens.
Outside of combat, it's totally possible to surprise someone and just slit their throat with no rolls at all if the DM wants to do that. Generally there will be at least a stealth check though.
The question of surprise depends on how the DM wants to rule it.
"My party was captured by a group of Kobolds"
1) If your party was captured then the kobolds would have every reason to assume you are hostile so even if momentarily distracted by something happening to their chief they remain aware of the threat represented by the characters and would not have their guard down as if unaware of a threat. Personally, I would rule no chance whatsoever of surprise in this situation. The kobolds are hostile, the characters are prisoners, they can't be surprised though they could be distracted.
2) As soon as someone wants to make an attack, you have to roll initiative dice. I've had players roll initiative when they weren't even aware there was a threat, though in those cases they were already on their guard so the opponents would not have surprise.
3) If no advantage and no opponent adjacent then no sneak attack (unless the rogue has a special ability like Swashbuckler which specifically allows the use of sneak attack in this situation). The rogue has a coupe of choices at this point.
- If the kobolds are distracted the DM might allow him to use Cunning Action to Hide as a bonus action. If the stealth check is successful then the rogue can use their action to attack with advantage and sneak attack can be applied if the attack hits.
- The other option is to make two attacks, one using their main weapon and the attack action and a second using their bonus action and two weapon fighting. Two weapon fighting requires the use of light melee weapons in both hands unless the character has the dual wielder feat. However, since the character does not have advantage, there is no opponent adjacent and the character doesn't have a feature to enable it, sneak attack can not be applied.
Also note, that if the rogue could sneak attack, the sneak attack feature can only be applied once/turn so the rogue can't use it on multiple attacks in the same turn - it can only be used on one attack that hits.
2) As soon as someone wants to make an attack, you have to roll initiative dice. I've had players roll initiative when they weren't even aware there was a threat, though in those cases they were already on their guard so the opponents would not have surprise.
I want to stress again, this is not necessarily the case. Combat rules are a set of tools that the DM can use to run a combat. You can absolutely make an attack outside of that. Attacking a guard who is asleep in his bed shouldn't require initiative and attack rolls - you just kill them.
Depending on the luck, resources, and ingenuity behind the distraction and the overall situation, I would rule this anywhere between "OK, you kill both kobolds. Roll initiative as the rest turn towards the screeches of their dying brothers" to "Nice try, but they retighten their grip on your restraints and shove you forward as you try to move behind them."
Or you can make it a combat right off the bat. That's fine too, but you don't have to. Don't let a bunch of rules and rolls get in the way of what might essentially be a narrative moment.
If you read the rules on Surprise, I think you could rule that out. It hinges on being unaware of any enenies or having no pre-existing threatening conditions that would make you on guard. Turning your back on a Rogue? I would definitely allow a Stealth roll to attempt a Sneak Attack set up. Probably more so if the Rogue ran into some cover before sniping with a range weapon.
I see what you're saying. Yeah, those four kobolds were distracted because their leader was pushed into a pool of water that contained a Sea Spawn so their attention was forward to the Rogue.
Ask yourself whether the players would accept it the other way around.
I imagine that if one PC was pushed into a pool of water and the GM said "the other PCs are distracted, the enemy gets sneak attack!" then there would be loud cries of protest at the table.
I want to stress again, this is not necessarily the case. Combat rules are a set of tools that the DM can use to run a combat. You can absolutely make an attack outside of that. Attacking a guard who is asleep in his bed shouldn't require initiative and attack rolls - you just kill them.
It goes without saying the DM doesn't have to follow any of the rules. Killing a sleeping guard is an extremely niche circumstance though and a lone rogue vs a group of kobolds big enough to capture the party isn't one of those "you automatically win" situations.
The point is that if the situation warrants using initiative (and most do) then all attacks should happen in initiative order. You don't get free hits pre-combat.
The question of surprise depends on how the DM wants to rule it.
"My party was captured by a group of Kobolds"
1) If your party was captured then the kobolds would have every reason to assume you are hostile so even if momentarily distracted by something happening to their chief they remain aware of the threat represented by the characters and would not have their guard down as if unaware of a threat. Personally, I would rule no chance whatsoever of surprise in this situation. The kobolds are hostile, the characters are prisoners, they can't be surprised though they could be distracted.
2) As soon as someone wants to make an attack, you have to roll initiative dice. I've had players roll initiative when they weren't even aware there was a threat, though in those cases they were already on their guard so the opponents would not have surprise.
3) If no advantage and no opponent adjacent then no sneak attack (unless the rogue has a special ability like Swashbuckler which specifically allows the use of sneak attack in this situation). The rogue has a coupe of choices at this point.
- If the kobolds are distracted the DM might allow him to use Cunning Action to Hide as a bonus action. If the stealth check is successful then the rogue can use their action to attack with advantage and sneak attack can be applied if the attack hits.
- The other option is to make two attacks, one using their main weapon and the attack action and a second using their bonus action and two weapon fighting. Two weapon fighting requires the use of light melee weapons in both hands unless the character has the dual wielder feat. However, since the character does not have advantage, there is no opponent adjacent and the character doesn't have a feature to enable it, sneak attack can not be applied.
Also note, that if the rogue could sneak attack, the sneak attack feature can only be applied once/turn so the rogue can't use it on multiple attacks in the same turn - it can only be used on one attack that hits.
100% agree. These are my thoughts just explained way better than I did.
By default, this is not a surprise situation -- the kobolds know you are present and unfriendly.
The effect of a distraction is that it is possible to use stealth; normally it is not possible to use stealth against opponents that can see you clearly.
A successful stealth check and attack will create a surprise round. Unless the rogue had a way to inform the other PCs of his plans, other PCs are also surprised.
PCs who are not surprised will have to make stealth checks to avoid giving away the game.
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Scenario:
My party was captured by a group of Kobolds and was able to distract their leader which drew all the attention of the minions away from them. The way everyone has positioned themselves the rogue of the party found himself behind a group of four kobolds (no other party members within 5 feet of them). He took advantage of the distraction and preformed an attack on two of the four kobolds with his daggers. The discussion came up if he was allowed to have Sneak Attack damage. The opinion was yes since everyone was looking the other way and the rogue could reasonably say it was a reasonable request. Others pointed out that the rogue should make a STEALTH check against their Passive Wisdom first to see he can get a 'Suprise' on the two targets and get the free attack due to their distractions but this did not fall into Sneak Attack damage since no party member was within five feet nor did the rogue have advantage for the attack.
I feel this situation could go in either direction of applying the rule but I wanted to get a second (ok, the third opinion since I already had two) opinion on best handling the rules of the game to this scenario.
If you read the rules on Surprise, I think you could rule that out. It hinges on being unaware of any enenies or having no pre-existing threatening conditions that would make you on guard. Turning your back on a Rogue? I would definitely allow a Stealth roll to attempt a Sneak Attack set up. Probably more so if the Rogue ran into some cover before sniping with a range weapon.
Did the rogue have Advantage on the attack or was the target of the attack also within 5ft of someone else hostile to it? If yes to one or both of those, then yes, they get Sneak Attack damage. Surprise technically doesn't have anything to do with it, although an easy way to get Advantage is to be hidden from your target. Hiding in combat is pretty hard to do and the default rules don't take facing into account, meaning enemies in combat are considered to have full view all the way around themselves. Facing is an optional rule in the Dungeon Master's Guide that your DM could use, but it't not a rule by default.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I see what you're saying. Yeah, those four kobolds were distracted because their leader was pushed into a pool of water that contained a Sea Spawn so their attention was forward to the Rogue.
Yeah, you are correct and maybe the answer was giving the rogue the option to making a Stealth Check to get the sneak attack damage come into play.
Narratively I can how each could apply I was just want to make sure what the rules would allow.
There's a couple of different rules tangled up in this situation so I'm going to take this one step at a time.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Combat rules are for combat. If you're not in combat, you don't have to follow the rules of combat. For this reason, making attacks outside of combat - especially involving Stealth - often have these kinds of issues. The DM needs to either call for initiative at that point and basically follow IC's steps above, or you continue in 'Narrative Mode' and the DM just adjudicates what happens.
Outside of combat, it's totally possible to surprise someone and just slit their throat with no rolls at all if the DM wants to do that. Generally there will be at least a stealth check though.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
The question of surprise depends on how the DM wants to rule it.
"My party was captured by a group of Kobolds"
1) If your party was captured then the kobolds would have every reason to assume you are hostile so even if momentarily distracted by something happening to their chief they remain aware of the threat represented by the characters and would not have their guard down as if unaware of a threat. Personally, I would rule no chance whatsoever of surprise in this situation. The kobolds are hostile, the characters are prisoners, they can't be surprised though they could be distracted.
2) As soon as someone wants to make an attack, you have to roll initiative dice. I've had players roll initiative when they weren't even aware there was a threat, though in those cases they were already on their guard so the opponents would not have surprise.
3) If no advantage and no opponent adjacent then no sneak attack (unless the rogue has a special ability like Swashbuckler which specifically allows the use of sneak attack in this situation). The rogue has a coupe of choices at this point.
- If the kobolds are distracted the DM might allow him to use Cunning Action to Hide as a bonus action. If the stealth check is successful then the rogue can use their action to attack with advantage and sneak attack can be applied if the attack hits.
- The other option is to make two attacks, one using their main weapon and the attack action and a second using their bonus action and two weapon fighting. Two weapon fighting requires the use of light melee weapons in both hands unless the character has the dual wielder feat. However, since the character does not have advantage, there is no opponent adjacent and the character doesn't have a feature to enable it, sneak attack can not be applied.
Also note, that if the rogue could sneak attack, the sneak attack feature can only be applied once/turn so the rogue can't use it on multiple attacks in the same turn - it can only be used on one attack that hits.
I want to stress again, this is not necessarily the case. Combat rules are a set of tools that the DM can use to run a combat. You can absolutely make an attack outside of that. Attacking a guard who is asleep in his bed shouldn't require initiative and attack rolls - you just kill them.
Depending on the luck, resources, and ingenuity behind the distraction and the overall situation, I would rule this anywhere between "OK, you kill both kobolds. Roll initiative as the rest turn towards the screeches of their dying brothers" to "Nice try, but they retighten their grip on your restraints and shove you forward as you try to move behind them."
Or you can make it a combat right off the bat. That's fine too, but you don't have to. Don't let a bunch of rules and rolls get in the way of what might essentially be a narrative moment.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Ask yourself whether the players would accept it the other way around.
I imagine that if one PC was pushed into a pool of water and the GM said "the other PCs are distracted, the enemy gets sneak attack!" then there would be loud cries of protest at the table.
It goes without saying the DM doesn't have to follow any of the rules. Killing a sleeping guard is an extremely niche circumstance though and a lone rogue vs a group of kobolds big enough to capture the party isn't one of those "you automatically win" situations.
The point is that if the situation warrants using initiative (and most do) then all attacks should happen in initiative order. You don't get free hits pre-combat.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
100% agree. These are my thoughts just explained way better than I did.
The way I would rule it would be: