Had a situation come up in a game this weekend. In a room with a 15' ceiling, a Grell had floated up as high as it could. One of the two Goliaths in the party (8' tall, give or take an inch or two) moved forward under the grell. He drew his longsword and attempted to make an attack from below. This sparked a discussion of whether or not the grell was in reach without jumping. The DM eventually allowed it with disadvantage (straight roll due to fairy fire) and the attack was successful.
The situation led to me searching for a RAW or even RAI instance where this was addressed, and I have not found one. Here is my argument for allowing the attack without disadvantage: 1. The goliath is 8ish feet tall. 2. While the grell is against the 15' ceiling, its size dictates that it hangs down 4-5" below that, leaving its tentacles 10-11' above the floor. 3. In the rules for jumping it states "You can extend your arms half your height above yourself during the jump. Thus, you can reach above you a distance equal to the height of the jump plus 1 1/2 times your height." (emphasis mine) which would mean that our goliath friend would be able to reach something 12' above the floor without jumping. 4. The addition of the length of the longsword (2-3' at least) would allow him to touch the ceiling with the blade. Thus, in this scenario, the goliath would easily be able to attack the grell that is directly above him.
The DM (whose ruling I will follow in his game because he is the DM) argued that the goliath is a medium creature. Medium creatures who are prone are still considered to only "take up" their same 5' square for the purposes of making attacks of opportunity. Therefore they, by lying down, can't extend their reach for AoO to hit something 10' feet from their original position, but only the normal 5'. Therefore the goliath could only attack something 5'+1/2 PC height (4") for a total of 9' above their head without imposing disadvantage on the strike or having to jump.
I am a bit of a rules lawyer, and would like to know if there is an official or semi-official ruling on this. As I said, I will abide by his rule in his game, but I also DM and would like to know for my games if my interpretation is contrary to established rulings.
Space rules in the PHB and DMG only really describe two dimensions, usually related to the ground you are standing on. There are a number of examples of creatures that don't "fit" in a cube formed by the "space" they occupy. Giants for example, are huge (15'x15' space_ but are described in the MM as being anywhere from 16' to 26' tall. Your DM's interpretation would mean that a storm giant (26' tall on average) couldn't lift his arm or weapon over his head (since half of 15' is 22.5')
DM's get a lot of latitude on ruling, and the rules are somewhat unclear on adjudicating vertically oriented combat, so I understand the DM's position to simplify combat and treat your "space" vertically the same as horizontally (said storm giant would have a 25' vertical reach in this way with its melee attacks due to its attack's 10' reach). If you use this method, the range of your melee attack becomes your space + the reach of your weapon (either 5 or 10 feet). Honestly, attacking at the limit of your extended arm leaves out a lot of potential combat options (either a fully extended swing or a thrust is about all you have), so I understand the DM's decision to allow the attack outside of their "normal" range at disadvantage (some DMs might not have let you target them at all).
Something that should be stated is that you are technically allowed to interrupt movement to attack...so jumping and attacking at the top of the jump would be RAW acceptable strategy on the goliath's turn. A goliath with a +5 STR modifier should be able to jump 4' from standing (or 8' if moving 10' horizontally first) and reach 1 1/2x their height, so 16'-20' of reach depending on the situation. Since reactions don't allow movement and attacks (at least as understood from the Ready action), this would not be available for an AoO.
1. The goliath is 8ish feet tall. 2. While the grell is against the 15' ceiling, its size dictates that it hangs down 4-5" below that, leaving its tentacles 10-11' above the floor. 3. In the rules for jumping it states "You can extend your arms half your height above yourself during the jump. Thus, you can reach above you a distance equal to the height of the jump plus 1 1/2 times your height." (emphasis mine) which would mean that our goliath friend would be able to reach something 12' above the floor without jumping. 4. The addition of the length of the longsword (2-3' at least) would allow him to touch the ceiling with the blade.
Not sure if there's any "official" ruling on this topic for all the points that you make, but the general rules would cover most of the concepts of why the goliath should not be able to automatically and/or easily attack the grell that's ~15 above them.
Goliath is a medium-sized creature, which means that they have a 5-foot reach.
Goliath is fighting with a long sword that does not extend the reach of the creature using it.
So, normally speaking, a medium-sized creature fighting with a longsword would have a reach of 5 feet.
The grell was 15 feet in the air, so there would have been a 5-foot cube between the goliath's location and the grell's location (which would mean that the grell was outside of the longsword's reach).
DM allowed goliath to jump to temporarily close that distance to the point where the longsword could reach. Since the goliath is leaping upward for a few seconds of his turn, it makes sense that the attack was at disadvantage to account for trying to swing at just the right time while leaping up into that square.
All of your points above are perfectly valid from a logical and mathematical point of view, but that's not how the general D&D rules tend to view and handle things. If goliath's had the long-limbs attribute (like a bugbear) that grants a 10-foot reach, then it might be handled differently. Or, if the goliath had a pike or halbard, then the weapon would have helped close that gap. However, neither of those specific things were in play at that time.
Keep in mind that many Large creatures (i.e., monsters) don't have more than a 5-foot reach either, so being 8' tall doesn't necessarily mean anything different for what is considered a medium-sized creature.
I am the height of an average, or slightly above average male, at 6'. I can reach a height of almost 8' standing flat footed. Put a sword in my hand and that extends my reach another three feet or more. A goliath that is eight feet tall would be able to reach about ten-and-a-half feet up without jumping. Put a sword in his hand and he is now reaching thirteen and a half feet to fourteen feet (if his sword is proportionally longer than a sword I would use). The Grell becomes a piñata, and all his goodies spill onto the floor.
Now if the DM wanted the room to be tall enough to allow the Grell to float out of your reach, then he should just say that is how high the ceiling is (tall enough), just beyond your reach. So you have to jump and there is some modifier applied.
I am glad it worked out for both of you.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
1. The goliath is 8ish feet tall. 2. While the grell is against the 15' ceiling, its size dictates that it hangs down 4-5" below that, leaving its tentacles 10-11' above the floor. 3. In the rules for jumping it states "You can extend your arms half your height above yourself during the jump. Thus, you can reach above you a distance equal to the height of the jump plus 1 1/2 times your height." (emphasis mine) which would mean that our goliath friend would be able to reach something 12' above the floor without jumping. 4. The addition of the length of the longsword (2-3' at least) would allow him to touch the ceiling with the blade.
Not sure if there's any "official" ruling on this topic for all the points that you make, but the general rules would cover most of the concepts of why the goliath should not be able to automatically and/or easily attack the grell that's ~15 above them.
Goliath is a medium-sized creature, which means that they have a 5-foot reach.
Goliath is fighting with a long sword that does not extend the reach of the creature using it.
So, normally speaking, a medium-sized creature fighting with a longsword would have a reach of 5 feet.
The grell was 15 feet in the air, so there would have been a 5-foot cube between the goliath's location and the grell's location (which would mean that the grell was outside of the longsword's reach).
DM allowed goliath to jump to temporarily close that distance to the point where the longsword could reach. Since the goliath is leaping upward for a few seconds of his turn, it makes sense that the attack was at disadvantage to account for trying to swing at just the right time while leaping up into that square.
All of your points above are perfectly valid from a logical and mathematical point of view, but that's not how the general D&D rules tend to view and handle things. If goliath's had the long-limbs attribute (like a bugbear) that grants a 10-foot reach, then it might be handled differently. Or, if the goliath had a pike or halbard, then the weapon would have helped close that gap. However, neither of those specific things were in play at that time.
Keep in mind that many Large creatures (i.e., monsters) don't have more than a 5-foot reach either, so being 8' tall doesn't necessarily mean anything different for what is considered a medium-sized creature.
The top of the creature can be no higher than 15' (the height of the ceiling) and the rest of the creature would hang down. Unless a grell is only 2' from top to bottom, he will be hanging down below the 13' mark. and since the grell is capable of grappling and restraining a medium or smaller creature, I would believe that it is longer than 2' long.. An 8' creature with a 5' reach means that he can hit a creature that has portions as low as 13' without jumping. This is without adding the .5x height from the previous argument.
Whilst a goliath fighter could reach a creature high above it, wielding the weapon effectively to get a significant hit on the higher creature is a totally different matter!
Thus, allow the roll, but with disadvantage to cater for the unusual angle of attack.
Whilst a goliath fighter could reach a creature high above it, wielding the weapon effectively to get a significant hit on the higher creature is a totally different matter!
Thus, allow the roll, but with disadvantage to cater for the unusual angle of attack.
Agreed.
On a side note, the opposite could apply to the original point of this thread: if you start going down the rabbit hole of exact height and not following the simplified 5ft spaces that 5e uses, you'll soon find that it makes sense for an 8ft creature with a large weapon to be at disadvantage in a 9-10ft tall dungeon. The argument would be the same, but reverse... only having 1 or 2 ft clearance above your head means you can't properly make big vertical swings, etc.
It also makes me really want to find a way to remove the penalty for being prone so that I could just lay down on the ground to apparently gain a 10 foot reach...
Size/reach restrictions are there for a reason. D&D is a game as well as a simulation and you really should just let the game determine things in this case or you get all kinds of weird rules and unintended benefits and penalties. The minute a DM plays keepaway with my gnome by asserting that it can't reach the square directly above it with a dagger because I'm too short is the minute I respectfully bow out of the game.
Had a situation come up in a game this weekend. In a room with a 15' ceiling, a Grell had floated up as high as it could. One of the two Goliaths in the party (8' tall, give or take an inch or two) moved forward under the grell. He drew his longsword and attempted to make an attack from below. This sparked a discussion of whether or not the grell was in reach without jumping. The DM eventually allowed it with disadvantage (straight roll due to fairy fire) and the attack was successful.
The situation led to me searching for a RAW or even RAI instance where this was addressed, and I have not found one. Here is my argument for allowing the attack without disadvantage: 1. The goliath is 8ish feet tall. 2. While the grell is against the 15' ceiling, its size dictates that it hangs down 4-5" below that, leaving its tentacles 10-11' above the floor. 3. In the rules for jumping it states "You can extend your arms half your height above yourself during the jump. Thus, you can reach above you a distance equal to the height of the jump plus 1 1/2 times your height." (emphasis mine) which would mean that our goliath friend would be able to reach something 12' above the floor without jumping. 4. The addition of the length of the longsword (2-3' at least) would allow him to touch the ceiling with the blade. Thus, in this scenario, the goliath would easily be able to attack the grell that is directly above him.
The DM (whose ruling I will follow in his game because he is the DM) argued that the goliath is a medium creature. Medium creatures who are prone are still considered to only "take up" their same 5' square for the purposes of making attacks of opportunity. Therefore they, by lying down, can't extend their reach for AoO to hit something 10' feet from their original position, but only the normal 5'. Therefore the goliath could only attack something 5'+1/2 PC height (4") for a total of 9' above their head without imposing disadvantage on the strike or having to jump.
I am a bit of a rules lawyer, and would like to know if there is an official or semi-official ruling on this. As I said, I will abide by his rule in his game, but I also DM and would like to know for my games if my interpretation is contrary to established rulings.
Space rules in the PHB and DMG only really describe two dimensions, usually related to the ground you are standing on. There are a number of examples of creatures that don't "fit" in a cube formed by the "space" they occupy. Giants for example, are huge (15'x15' space_ but are described in the MM as being anywhere from 16' to 26' tall. Your DM's interpretation would mean that a storm giant (26' tall on average) couldn't lift his arm or weapon over his head (since half of 15' is 22.5')
DM's get a lot of latitude on ruling, and the rules are somewhat unclear on adjudicating vertically oriented combat, so I understand the DM's position to simplify combat and treat your "space" vertically the same as horizontally (said storm giant would have a 25' vertical reach in this way with its melee attacks due to its attack's 10' reach). If you use this method, the range of your melee attack becomes your space + the reach of your weapon (either 5 or 10 feet). Honestly, attacking at the limit of your extended arm leaves out a lot of potential combat options (either a fully extended swing or a thrust is about all you have), so I understand the DM's decision to allow the attack outside of their "normal" range at disadvantage (some DMs might not have let you target them at all).
Something that should be stated is that you are technically allowed to interrupt movement to attack...so jumping and attacking at the top of the jump would be RAW acceptable strategy on the goliath's turn. A goliath with a +5 STR modifier should be able to jump 4' from standing (or 8' if moving 10' horizontally first) and reach 1 1/2x their height, so 16'-20' of reach depending on the situation. Since reactions don't allow movement and attacks (at least as understood from the Ready action), this would not be available for an AoO.
Not sure if there's any "official" ruling on this topic for all the points that you make, but the general rules would cover most of the concepts of why the goliath should not be able to automatically and/or easily attack the grell that's ~15 above them.
All of your points above are perfectly valid from a logical and mathematical point of view, but that's not how the general D&D rules tend to view and handle things. If goliath's had the long-limbs attribute (like a bugbear) that grants a 10-foot reach, then it might be handled differently. Or, if the goliath had a pike or halbard, then the weapon would have helped close that gap. However, neither of those specific things were in play at that time.
Keep in mind that many Large creatures (i.e., monsters) don't have more than a 5-foot reach either, so being 8' tall doesn't necessarily mean anything different for what is considered a medium-sized creature.
Basically, how height you can reach and how high you can attack are different rules.
But the DM might allow a standing jump to try to attack. There may be disadvantage or whatever they see fit to add.
This is why melee characters should always have a few javelins.
I am the height of an average, or slightly above average male, at 6'. I can reach a height of almost 8' standing flat footed. Put a sword in my hand and that extends my reach another three feet or more. A goliath that is eight feet tall would be able to reach about ten-and-a-half feet up without jumping. Put a sword in his hand and he is now reaching thirteen and a half feet to fourteen feet (if his sword is proportionally longer than a sword I would use). The Grell becomes a piñata, and all his goodies spill onto the floor.
Now if the DM wanted the room to be tall enough to allow the Grell to float out of your reach, then he should just say that is how high the ceiling is (tall enough), just beyond your reach. So you have to jump and there is some modifier applied.
I am glad it worked out for both of you.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
The top of the creature can be no higher than 15' (the height of the ceiling) and the rest of the creature would hang down. Unless a grell is only 2' from top to bottom, he will be hanging down below the 13' mark. and since the grell is capable of grappling and restraining a medium or smaller creature, I would believe that it is longer than 2' long.. An 8' creature with a 5' reach means that he can hit a creature that has portions as low as 13' without jumping. This is without adding the .5x height from the previous argument.
Whilst a goliath fighter could reach a creature high above it, wielding the weapon effectively to get a significant hit on the higher creature is a totally different matter!
Thus, allow the roll, but with disadvantage to cater for the unusual angle of attack.
Agreed.
On a side note, the opposite could apply to the original point of this thread: if you start going down the rabbit hole of exact height and not following the simplified 5ft spaces that 5e uses, you'll soon find that it makes sense for an 8ft creature with a large weapon to be at disadvantage in a 9-10ft tall dungeon. The argument would be the same, but reverse... only having 1 or 2 ft clearance above your head means you can't properly make big vertical swings, etc.
It also makes me really want to find a way to remove the penalty for being prone so that I could just lay down on the ground to apparently gain a 10 foot reach...
Size/reach restrictions are there for a reason. D&D is a game as well as a simulation and you really should just let the game determine things in this case or you get all kinds of weird rules and unintended benefits and penalties. The minute a DM plays keepaway with my gnome by asserting that it can't reach the square directly above it with a dagger because I'm too short is the minute I respectfully bow out of the game.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm