I have a couple of questions regarding the mechanics and usefulness of the cantrip.
1) If I cast the Gust cantrip on myself or one of my allies, am I/are they allowed to choose to let the wind push them by 5 feet?
In the Gust cantrip it states: "One Medium or smaller creature that you choose must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed up to 5 feet away from you."
In my mind the fact that it says "or" means that the target of the spell can choose to let it happen if they will it. Would I be correct in assuming this or am I missing something? I'm considering using it as a way to help position myself and/or my teammates and give them extra movement on occasions where it could be more valuable then using other cantrips or low level spells, to instead help the fighter or barbarian get close enough to do an attack(or even action surge etc) on their turn where they otherwise would have not.
2) I'm also under the impression that I can use Gust to get my allies out of the melee range of enemies without provoking attacks of opportunity from them since attacks of opportunity only trigger when the creature is moving out of its own choice, but it's out of my own choice. However, if the answer to the first question is yes then does that mean attacks of opportunity would still trigger if i pushed my allies out of melee range of an enemy since it is their choice for letting it happen or does it still count as mine since I'm the one moving them?
3) Can I use Gust to knock someone off of their mount if they aren't properly strapped on?
4) (I doubt this one is a yes but maybe for rp) Can I use Gust to blast someones clothes off XD? That could be a great way to humiliate the BBEG in the middle of a crazy evil ritual or embarrass someone during a bar fight that picked on my friend. This assumes that they aren't wearing a belt or something pfft.
To me it seems to have great potential with some creativity and practice. What do you guys think? Any usefulness I missed out on?
As far as I understand, you can choose to fail a saving throw. So yes, you could use it to push a willing ally. Honestly you’re probably better off attacking an enemy, but there’s always odd situations where maybe that’s not an option or not a good option. So, yes you could push a fighter if you and the fighter wanted. So that would mean:
1. Yes, you can push them. 2. You are right that forced movement does not provoke OAs. Personally, I’d rule that if someone chooses to fail their save the movement is not forced, since they are willingly moving. Other DMs may say otherwise. I guess there could be an argument for the fighter to attempt its save and if it fails, it’s not going willingly, and therefore it is forced. Again, seems like a DM ruling. 3. Seems like a yes.
4. No. For one, the spell is not that fine tuned an instrument to be able to unbuckle belts, untie laces and unbutton buttons, and not strong enough to just rip the clothes. For two, it specifies that unattended objects can be moved. Clothes on a person’s body are certainly attended.
For 1&2, 5e doesn't have anything in the rules that allows for voluntary failures of saving throws. Previous editions did. Crawford and Mearls have both tweeted out that they can't be voluntarily failed, but also said they'd allow it as a DM. (Their tweets aren't "rules" but a decent amount of DMs look to them for clarity.) If you search online, you'll find a ton of discussion on whether SVs can be failed voluntarily, with arguments for and against. Without repeating entire discussions, I would recommend asking your DM what side of the argument they fall on to get an answer for the game you're playing in.
And yes I shall ask my DM on their preference too. I can understand why it would be argued to possibly be a bit of a loophole against the designed intentions of the game, but at the same time its logical from the role play perspective to be possible and it perhaps it can also be argued that it doesn't go against the grindstone anyway.
There are some specific spells that state the target is allowed to willingly fail the save automatically if it chooses to do so. But those spells are explicit in that functionality, so I'd argue that Gust does not allow for willing failure of a save.
There are some specific spells that state the target is allowed to willingly fail the save automatically if it chooses to do so. But those spells are explicit in that functionality, so I'd argue that Gust does not allow for willing failure of a save.
True. I'd say Watery Sphere and Bones of the Earth are most comparable as they both have movement as one of the effects of voluntarily failing the save. With those as a basis, I'd say no to volun-failing Gust as well.
4) (I doubt this one is a yes but maybe for rp) Can I use Gust to blast someones clothes off XD? That could be a great way to humiliate the BBEG in the middle of a crazy evil ritual or embarrass someone during a bar fight that picked on my friend. This assumes that they aren't wearing a belt or something pfft.
Blasting clothes off is a little much, but you could absolutely blow a drink into a guy's face or blow a robe up over a wizard's head to achieve the same goal.
I feel I should add here that the wizard's robe thing would be like for a couple seconds. It would not be able to block their sight/blind them or really give any kind of mechanical bonus. But it could still achieve the goal of humiliation depending on what's underneath the robe.
There are some specific spells that state the target is allowed to willingly fail the save automatically if it chooses to do so. But those spells are explicit in that functionality, so I'd argue that Gust does not allow for willing failure of a save.
True. I'd say Watery Sphere and Bones of the Earth are most comparable as they both have movement as one of the effects of voluntarily failing the save. With those as a basis, I'd say no to volun-failing Gust as well.
Good point. I hadn’t considered that there are spells where you can specifically, so yes, probably you can’t choose to fail on gust.
which basically means that only No. 3 on the OP’s questions would be a yes.
Gust is pretty good for a lot of "Rule of Cool" house ruling stuff.
A DM houseruled once that if I did a running jump and cast a Gust in the air, I would move 5ft. Let my halfling with a strength of 9 jump a 10ft chasm (running long jump typically moves you your strength in feet, which would have been 1 ft short).
Maybe use Gust as a reaction, someone moves invoking an attack of opportunity and on seeing this you use your reaction to cast Gust to attempt to deflect the attack. The enemy still has to make a strength save and on passing it gets to hit on fail misses. DM ruling obviously, but I'd allow it.
You can’t use gust as a reaction. It’s casting time is one action. If you could use it as a reaction, like shield, it would say so. Maybe if you had warcaster, you could argue it’s only targeting that creature, so you could do it then.
Of course then the reaction would be in response to someone already moving away from you. If you did this you’d just push them farther.
Regarding failed saving throws, it's true that D&D doesn't have a general rule for voluntarily failing, and you may not even be aware that you're making one. But Strength and Dexterity saves in particular are clearly tied to an active effort to physically resist or get out of the way of something, which is why you automatically fail when paralyzed or unconscious. The rules also assume that saving throws are exclusively made to avoid harm. If a creature actually wants to get pushed by the spell, they ought to have the option of failing that save.
If you want to get extremely pedantic, the spell never says you have to make a Strength save, it says you must succeed on one or be pushed.
You can’t use gust as a reaction. It’s casting time is one action. If you could use it as a reaction, like shield, it would say so. Maybe if you had warcaster, you could argue it’s only targeting that creature, so you could do it then.
Of course then the reaction would be in response to someone already moving away from you. If you did this you’d just push them farther.
The PHB on page 193 explicitly explains how any spell with a casting time of 1 action can be cast as a reaction. It requires you to take the Ready Action on your turn, and to tell the DM the trigger, but it's explicitly in the rules that you can cast spells with a casting time of one action as a reaction.
That’s not using a reaction. That is using the “ready” action. A reaction is a different thing. You use it most often to take an opportunity attack when someone moves away from you, but there are other uses, such as a wizard casting shield, or Someone with polearm master getting an OA when an enemy approaches. They do not have to use their action to do those things, they use their reaction.
That’s not using a reaction. That is using the “ready” action. A reaction is a different thing. You use it most often to take an opportunity attack when someone moves away from you, but there are other uses, such as a wizard casting shield, or Someone with polearm master getting an OA when an enemy approaches. They do not have to use their action to do those things, they use their reaction.
The PHB says: "Sometimes you want to get the jump on a foe or wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you can take the Ready action on your turn so that you can act later in the round using your reaction."
Thus, when you're Readying an action, you are using your reaction.
Xalthu was responding to the previous post by Zyonchaos, in which is was posited that gust could be used as a reaction spell as an attack of opportunity. Xalthu was essentially saying that it's an action spell, not a reaction spell. (In the context of the post by Zyonchaos)
That’s not using a reaction. That is using the “ready” action. A reaction is a different thing. You use it most often to take an opportunity attack when someone moves away from you, but there are other uses, such as a wizard casting shield, or Someone with polearm master getting an OA when an enemy approaches. They do not have to use their action to do those things, they use their reaction.
The PHB says: "Sometimes you want to get the jump on a foe or wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you can take the Ready action on your turn so that you can act later in the round using your reaction."
Thus, when you're Readying an action, you are using your reaction.
I see what you are saying. Yes, you are using your reaction, but you are using it to take your action. On your turn, you would say, "For my action, I'm going to ready an action and if someone comes next to me, I'll cast gust to blow them away from me." Then someone does, and you use your reaction to trigger your action to cast the spell. But it only works because you had already spent your action readying an action. You can't cast the spell as just a reaction, you need to have used your action first to get it ready. The casting time of the spell is still one action, an you used that action taking ready. If, for example, the enemy's turn in the initiative order comes before yours, they can run up on you and you can't cast gust to try and stop them, because you have not yet readied an action to cast it. In this second scenario, you could actually cast shield, because its casting time is one reaction.
4) (I doubt this one is a yes but maybe for rp) Can I use Gust to blast someones clothes off XD? That could be a great way to humiliate the BBEG in the middle of a crazy evil ritual or embarrass someone during a bar fight that picked on my friend. This assumes that they aren't wearing a belt or something pfft.
I think this one has been covered by Xalthu, but I have to add that if the BBEG was wearing a kilt or something, I might allow a Seven Year Itch Marilyn Monroe subway grate moment. Even if you couldn't tell whether they were true Scotsmen, you'd at least interrupt an evil monologue or two.
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I have a couple of questions regarding the mechanics and usefulness of the cantrip.
1) If I cast the Gust cantrip on myself or one of my allies, am I/are they allowed to choose to let the wind push them by 5 feet?
In the Gust cantrip it states: "One Medium or smaller creature that you choose must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed up to 5 feet away from you."
In my mind the fact that it says "or" means that the target of the spell can choose to let it happen if they will it. Would I be correct in assuming this or am I missing something? I'm considering using it as a way to help position myself and/or my teammates and give them extra movement on occasions where it could be more valuable then using other cantrips or low level spells, to instead help the fighter or barbarian get close enough to do an attack(or even action surge etc) on their turn where they otherwise would have not.
2) I'm also under the impression that I can use Gust to get my allies out of the melee range of enemies without provoking attacks of opportunity from them since attacks of opportunity only trigger when the creature is moving out of its own choice, but it's out of my own choice. However, if the answer to the first question is yes then does that mean attacks of opportunity would still trigger if i pushed my allies out of melee range of an enemy since it is their choice for letting it happen or does it still count as mine since I'm the one moving them?
3) Can I use Gust to knock someone off of their mount if they aren't properly strapped on?
4) (I doubt this one is a yes but maybe for rp) Can I use Gust to blast someones clothes off XD? That could be a great way to humiliate the BBEG in the middle of a crazy evil ritual or embarrass someone during a bar fight that picked on my friend. This assumes that they aren't wearing a belt or something pfft.
To me it seems to have great potential with some creativity and practice. What do you guys think? Any usefulness I missed out on?
As far as I understand, you can choose to fail a saving throw. So yes, you could use it to push a willing ally. Honestly you’re probably better off attacking an enemy, but there’s always odd situations where maybe that’s not an option or not a good option. So, yes you could push a fighter if you and the fighter wanted. So that would mean:
1. Yes, you can push them.
2. You are right that forced movement does not provoke OAs. Personally, I’d rule that if someone chooses to fail their save the movement is not forced, since they are willingly moving. Other DMs may say otherwise. I guess there could be an argument for the fighter to attempt its save and if it fails, it’s not going willingly, and therefore it is forced. Again, seems like a DM ruling.
3. Seems like a yes.
4. No. For one, the spell is not that fine tuned an instrument to be able to unbuckle belts, untie laces and unbutton buttons, and not strong enough to just rip the clothes. For two, it specifies that unattended objects can be moved. Clothes on a person’s body are certainly attended.
For 1&2, 5e doesn't have anything in the rules that allows for voluntary failures of saving throws. Previous editions did. Crawford and Mearls have both tweeted out that they can't be voluntarily failed, but also said they'd allow it as a DM. (Their tweets aren't "rules" but a decent amount of DMs look to them for clarity.) If you search online, you'll find a ton of discussion on whether SVs can be failed voluntarily, with arguments for and against. Without repeating entire discussions, I would recommend asking your DM what side of the argument they fall on to get an answer for the game you're playing in.
That's some great advice.
And yes I shall ask my DM on their preference too. I can understand why it would be argued to possibly be a bit of a loophole against the designed intentions of the game, but at the same time its logical from the role play perspective to be possible and it perhaps it can also be argued that it doesn't go against the grindstone anyway.
Thanks to the both of you!
There are some specific spells that state the target is allowed to willingly fail the save automatically if it chooses to do so. But those spells are explicit in that functionality, so I'd argue that Gust does not allow for willing failure of a save.
True. I'd say Watery Sphere and Bones of the Earth are most comparable as they both have movement as one of the effects of voluntarily failing the save. With those as a basis, I'd say no to volun-failing Gust as well.
Blasting clothes off is a little much, but you could absolutely blow a drink into a guy's face or blow a robe up over a wizard's head to achieve the same goal.
I feel I should add here that the wizard's robe thing would be like for a couple seconds. It would not be able to block their sight/blind them or really give any kind of mechanical bonus. But it could still achieve the goal of humiliation depending on what's underneath the robe.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Good point. I hadn’t considered that there are spells where you can specifically, so yes, probably you can’t choose to fail on gust.
which basically means that only No. 3 on the OP’s questions would be a yes.
This is all great advice. Thank you all!
Blast it in to the ground in front of you and see if the DM lets you create a "smoke screen" for one round. That is, if the ground is loose soil/sand.
Gust is pretty good for a lot of "Rule of Cool" house ruling stuff.
A DM houseruled once that if I did a running jump and cast a Gust in the air, I would move 5ft. Let my halfling with a strength of 9 jump a 10ft chasm (running long jump typically moves you your strength in feet, which would have been 1 ft short).
Maybe use Gust as a reaction, someone moves invoking an attack of opportunity and on seeing this you use your reaction to cast Gust to attempt to deflect the attack. The enemy still has to make a strength save and on passing it gets to hit on fail misses. DM ruling obviously, but I'd allow it.
From Within Chaos Comes Order!
You can’t use gust as a reaction. It’s casting time is one action. If you could use it as a reaction, like shield, it would say so. Maybe if you had warcaster, you could argue it’s only targeting that creature, so you could do it then.
Of course then the reaction would be in response to someone already moving away from you. If you did this you’d just push them farther.
Regarding failed saving throws, it's true that D&D doesn't have a general rule for voluntarily failing, and you may not even be aware that you're making one. But Strength and Dexterity saves in particular are clearly tied to an active effort to physically resist or get out of the way of something, which is why you automatically fail when paralyzed or unconscious. The rules also assume that saving throws are exclusively made to avoid harm. If a creature actually wants to get pushed by the spell, they ought to have the option of failing that save.
If you want to get extremely pedantic, the spell never says you have to make a Strength save, it says you must succeed on one or be pushed.
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The PHB on page 193 explicitly explains how any spell with a casting time of 1 action can be cast as a reaction. It requires you to take the Ready Action on your turn, and to tell the DM the trigger, but it's explicitly in the rules that you can cast spells with a casting time of one action as a reaction.
That’s not using a reaction. That is using the “ready” action. A reaction is a different thing. You use it most often to take an opportunity attack when someone moves away from you, but there are other uses, such as a wizard casting shield, or Someone with polearm master getting an OA when an enemy approaches. They do not have to use their action to do those things, they use their reaction.
The PHB says:
"Sometimes you want to get the jump on a foe or wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you can take the Ready action on your turn so that you can act later in the round using your reaction."
Thus, when you're Readying an action, you are using your reaction.
Xalthu was responding to the previous post by Zyonchaos, in which is was posited that gust could be used as a reaction spell as an attack of opportunity. Xalthu was essentially saying that it's an action spell, not a reaction spell. (In the context of the post by Zyonchaos)
I see what you are saying. Yes, you are using your reaction, but you are using it to take your action. On your turn, you would say, "For my action, I'm going to ready an action and if someone comes next to me, I'll cast gust to blow them away from me." Then someone does, and you use your reaction to trigger your action to cast the spell. But it only works because you had already spent your action readying an action. You can't cast the spell as just a reaction, you need to have used your action first to get it ready. The casting time of the spell is still one action, an you used that action taking ready. If, for example, the enemy's turn in the initiative order comes before yours, they can run up on you and you can't cast gust to try and stop them, because you have not yet readied an action to cast it. In this second scenario, you could actually cast shield, because its casting time is one reaction.
4) (I doubt this one is a yes but maybe for rp) Can I use Gust to blast someones clothes off XD? That could be a great way to humiliate the BBEG in the middle of a crazy evil ritual or embarrass someone during a bar fight that picked on my friend. This assumes that they aren't wearing a belt or something pfft.
I think this one has been covered by Xalthu, but I have to add that if the BBEG was wearing a kilt or something, I might allow a Seven Year Itch Marilyn Monroe subway grate moment. Even if you couldn't tell whether they were true Scotsmen, you'd at least interrupt an evil monologue or two.