Just curious what the best logic is for choosing Magic Initiate or a multiclass dip into a spellcasting class? Seems like MI is one of the most highly regarded feats, but what makes it a better option than a dip into the relevant class?
The pros of a MC seems to outweigh MI, but I might be missing something.
MC pros:
More spell slots, occasionally more cantrips known.
Additional features with most classes.
Versatility to level up to even better features if desired at later levels.
ASI level open for actual ASI, rather than a feat (or a different feat).
MI pros:
No MC prereqs (which isn't particularly important anyways, you'd likely want your ability score above 13 for the relevant ability anyways).
No lost levels in feature-heavy classes.
I'm asking because I'm considering a Druid dip (on a Monk build) instead of MI-Druid at fourth level, because that way I can still take either the ASI or a feat like Crusher on my next level. AND I'd get an additional first level spell/spell slot. AND I could later decide I want to add Wild Shape to my repertoire and add Druid 2. Thoughts?
The pros and cons entirely depend on your end goal.
If you are dipping into Cleric from Wizard, you don't get any additional spellslots, and end up delaying your access to higher level wizard spells. The features you gain may either not be useable, or not practical. (A lot of good abilities don't kick in until level 2). If you only want a little extra versatility, say, a couple utility cantrips and Find Familiar, then a full dip is hard to justify.
If you are dipping into Cleric from, say, Fighter, you might get some nice perks, but then you'll be delaying access to Extra Attack, ability score improvements, etc. You'll also end up with slightly fewer hitpoints.
If you want to have a magical fighting class, you may be better off going with Paladin, Hexblade, or some other half-caster class such as the Eldritch Knight. Any Multi-class dip ultimately delays your entry into the features that make your class special. Too many dips risks making those features obsolete before you get them.
However, one big perk of a multiclass dip is that it gives you access to spell scrolls for that class, even if you can't normally cast a spell for your level.
In your case of Druid/Monk. I'd suggest planning your progression now, rather than winging it down the road. If you decide that you've made a mistake, it may be easier to retrain a feat than a class level.
Edit: Monks get a lot of features every level, so you actually have a lot to lose by multi-classing without a specific build in mind. If you want to get the most out of a Druid/Monk build, you'll probably want to take more than just a couple levels, otherwise you'll be limited to CR1 beasts (Circle of the Moon), and won't get access to swim or fly speeds, which dramatically reduces your options.
Here's my thoughts on it... what specific spells are you wanting to take this single class dip to nab? Keep in mind that, as a Monk, even if you spend your ASI on a feat you're still gaining a class feature on that level as well, since you get an additional Ki point for each level. At the first ASI at level 1 Monks not only get more Ki, but also Slow Fall and (if you're using the Tasha's options) a self-heal.
But it also depends on what spells you're trying to get access to. If you have a really specific plan involving a specific Druid Cantrip and first level spell, you're probably better off just taking Magic Initiate. But Druid is one of the classes where the spells you can cast depends on what spell you choose to prepare that day... at a single level you can prepare at minimum 2 spells (although I'm assuming your WIS is at least 16, so more like 4), and get two slots. You can swap your prepared spells on a short rest to be more versatile... but not by a lot. Druid is also one of the worse classes for a single class dip... you get a meager number of cantrips, and you don't get access to any class-specific abilities except for the Druidic language, which rarely, if ever, comes up. Going Cleric is also WIS based, gives you 3 cantrips, the same number of spell slots and spells prepared, and you get immediate access to your Domain Features, including at least one additional always-prepared spell. If you take a single level dip into Druid, you basically get 2 Druid Cantrips and 2 Spell slots to use, and the potential to get wildshape later if you want to lean harder into multiclassing. If, instead, you were to take Nature Domain Cleric, you get 3 Cleric Cantrips, 1 additional Druid Cantrip of your choice, Cleric spellcasting with 2 spell slots to spend, and you always have Animal Friendship and Speak with Animals prepared... plus proficiency in your choice of Animal Handling, Nature, or Survival, plus proficiency in heavy armor (which I assume you're not going to use, but hey, it's there).
The funny thing is that Nature Domain isn't a particularly good Cleric subclass... long-term it mostly ends up just being a Druid that lacks half the Druid features, but at first level it outclasses Druid pretty handily.
In your case of Druid/Monk. I'd suggest planning your progression now, rather than winging it down the road. If you decide that you've made a mistake, it may be easier to retrain a feat than a class level.
Edit: Monks get a lot of features every level, so you actually have a lot to lose by multi-classing without a specific build in mind. If you want to get the most out of a Druid/Monk build, you'll probably want to take more than just a couple levels, otherwise you'll be limited to CR1 beasts (Circle of the Moon), and won't get access to swim or fly speeds, which dramatically reduces your options.
I'm running a Four Elements Monk (I know, I know -- at least my DM allowed a couple fixes to make it more viable), but Magic Initiate immediately stuck out as a good option to give more elemental flavor, with cantrips like Produce Flame, Shape Water, and Absorb Elements. But considering I think it's unlikely our campaign goes to a very high level, and Monks only get 3 ASIs before level 16, and I'd like to pump up either DEX or WIS to 20 (currently 18 and 16, respectively) ... well, I was worrying that Feats cost too much in lost ability increases. Let alone that Mobile and Crusher are both very useful for Monks.
If I assume our campaign only reaches, say, 13th level, then I get 3 ASI/Feats if I go to 12 Monk levels.
I'd need to use all three on ASIs to get to 20/20. If I go Druid 1, then I can at least get the increased Elemental flavor from their cantrips and spells, at least.
ASI's and levels are both precious resources, and it really depends on the build which is the lower cost. It's further complicated by different spellcaster dips giving different bonuses.
To build off Transmorpher's recommendations, I'd consider Arcana domain cleric as well - you get 3 cleric cantrips (which aren't very elemental but can certainly be monk/enlightenment flavored) and two wizard cantrips (which have even more elemental options than druid and will still key off wis) plus Arcana and more spells. But monks are one of the classes where ASIs and levels are both very important, so it's a tough call.
Honestly Four Elements needs all the help it can get, so I'd try to talk your DM into giving you the 4 noncombat 'manipulate elements' cantrips for free. Or maybe on a magic item or something. You shouldn't need to spend extra resources just to complete the feel of your subclass, if that's what you're trying to do.
OK it sounds like you are thinking about what to do when you hit level 4. Lets look at waht you lose compare to straight monk level with ASIs by level, I'll mention the Tasha's variant rules but haven't worked out how powerful they are yet.
Taking MI you are always down by an ASI
Taking a 1 level dip
At level 4, your ASI is also down and you also lose a ki point, slow fall and (if using Tash's options) quickened healing
From your monk skills here you are worse off with the multiclass as you lose the ASI + more 25% of your ki is a lot and slow fall comes up often enough to be useful
At level 5, you lose extra attack, stunning strike, the ability to upcast your spells and a ki and possibly focused aim
Extra attack increases your damage massivly and stunning strike is the defining monk feature and a ki are still very limited (especially if you are planning to use Tasha's features)
At 6 you lose ki empowered strikes and an elemental disipline
If your encounter a tough fight against creatures resistant (or immune) to non magical weapon damage while you are monk 5 druid 1 you will hate your decision if it does not happen until you are monk 6 druid 1 you will be happy. If you are going for the elemental flavor, at the extra discipline needs to be compared to the elemental flavor gained by going druid.
At 7 you lose evasion and stillness of mind and as always a ki.
Dex saves for half damage are very common and being able to avoid all damage most of the time (due to your high dex) and only taking half the rest of the time is big, being charmed or frightenedis less common (especially with your high Wis) but when it happens this can be clutch
At 8 you are an ASI behind (you have the same ability scores as if you took a feat at 4) and also lose a ki point
After that the the monk features are probably either less powerful or more situational (though depending on your campaign immunity to poison could be really useful) until you get Diamond soul which is one of the biggest class features for any class at any level if the final boss fight is when you are at level 14 you do not want to be monk 13 / druid 1. If you campaign goes beyond 14 you really want diamond soul as soon as possible.
I know a level of druid gives you more than MI but you also lose a lot more monk bt dropping a level than losing an ASI. If you want o be as effective as possible go single class and takethe ASI, if you want to increase your elemental options for flavour reasons which way to go is up ot you.
I have the perception that MI is usually chosen because you want a specific cantrip, not because the lvl 1 spell. Of course there are some niches, but if you are interested in a particular spell, multiclass is better — you effectively add the spell to your spell list, can cast and upcast without worries.
Find Familiar is a great spell, but I personally don’t like as an option for MI because you’ll only use it ever again if your familiar is being killed.
I have the perception that MI is usually chosen because you want a specific cantrip, not because the lvl 1 spell. Of course there are some niches, but if you are interested in a particular spell, multiclass is better — you effectively add the spell to your spell list, can cast and upcast without worries.
Find Familiar is a great spell, but I personally don’t like as an option for MI because you’ll only use it ever again if your familiar is being killed.
Sort of a tangent... but for anyone who wants Find Familiar, Ritual Caster is a much better feat. You can continue to learn new Ritual Spells throughout the game, assuming your DM gives access to scrolls or spellbooks
I'd say that it depends on the class and how far you think it will go. Monk is one of those classes where certain levels are quite forgetable. If you know you are going all the way to level 20, for example, you can easily skip out on that last monk level for a multiclass dip. On the other hand if you know you are only going to level 14, I wouldn't want to skip out on Diamond Soul.
As for the perks themselves, I'm thinking that you need to look at what the multiclass actually brings of value. Will you actually have any use for the stuff your getting from a multiclass or are they just frills?
I'd say that it depends on the class and how far you think it will go. Monk is one of those classes where certain levels are quite forgetable. If you know you are going all the way to level 20, for example, you can easily skip out on that last monk level for a multiclass dip. On the other hand if you know you are only going to level 14, I wouldn't want to skip out on Diamond Soul.
The level 20 feature is very weak so a monk 19/???? 1 is often the better option but if you are going to level 20 you probably want to get things like diamond sol at 14 rather than 15 so it is optimal to take the dip late. I have a level 18 open hand monk that I plan to take a class of cleric in. Still to decide whether to take it before or after the Feat/ASI (as an aside I was hoping to take fighting initiate mariner but it dod not make it intoTash'a)
Just curious what the best logic is for choosing Magic Initiate or a multiclass dip into a spellcasting class? Seems like MI is one of the most highly regarded feats, but what makes it a better option than a dip into the relevant class?
The pros of a MC seems to outweigh MI, but I might be missing something.
MC pros:
MI pros:
I'm asking because I'm considering a Druid dip (on a Monk build) instead of MI-Druid at fourth level, because that way I can still take either the ASI or a feat like Crusher on my next level. AND I'd get an additional first level spell/spell slot. AND I could later decide I want to add Wild Shape to my repertoire and add Druid 2. Thoughts?
The pros and cons entirely depend on your end goal.
If you are dipping into Cleric from Wizard, you don't get any additional spellslots, and end up delaying your access to higher level wizard spells. The features you gain may either not be useable, or not practical. (A lot of good abilities don't kick in until level 2). If you only want a little extra versatility, say, a couple utility cantrips and Find Familiar, then a full dip is hard to justify.
If you are dipping into Cleric from, say, Fighter, you might get some nice perks, but then you'll be delaying access to Extra Attack, ability score improvements, etc. You'll also end up with slightly fewer hitpoints.
If you want to have a magical fighting class, you may be better off going with Paladin, Hexblade, or some other half-caster class such as the Eldritch Knight. Any Multi-class dip ultimately delays your entry into the features that make your class special. Too many dips risks making those features obsolete before you get them.
However, one big perk of a multiclass dip is that it gives you access to spell scrolls for that class, even if you can't normally cast a spell for your level.
In your case of Druid/Monk. I'd suggest planning your progression now, rather than winging it down the road. If you decide that you've made a mistake, it may be easier to retrain a feat than a class level.
Edit: Monks get a lot of features every level, so you actually have a lot to lose by multi-classing without a specific build in mind. If you want to get the most out of a Druid/Monk build, you'll probably want to take more than just a couple levels, otherwise you'll be limited to CR1 beasts (Circle of the Moon), and won't get access to swim or fly speeds, which dramatically reduces your options.
Here's my thoughts on it... what specific spells are you wanting to take this single class dip to nab? Keep in mind that, as a Monk, even if you spend your ASI on a feat you're still gaining a class feature on that level as well, since you get an additional Ki point for each level. At the first ASI at level 1 Monks not only get more Ki, but also Slow Fall and (if you're using the Tasha's options) a self-heal.
But it also depends on what spells you're trying to get access to. If you have a really specific plan involving a specific Druid Cantrip and first level spell, you're probably better off just taking Magic Initiate. But Druid is one of the classes where the spells you can cast depends on what spell you choose to prepare that day... at a single level you can prepare at minimum 2 spells (although I'm assuming your WIS is at least 16, so more like 4), and get two slots. You can swap your prepared spells on a short rest to be more versatile... but not by a lot. Druid is also one of the worse classes for a single class dip... you get a meager number of cantrips, and you don't get access to any class-specific abilities except for the Druidic language, which rarely, if ever, comes up. Going Cleric is also WIS based, gives you 3 cantrips, the same number of spell slots and spells prepared, and you get immediate access to your Domain Features, including at least one additional always-prepared spell. If you take a single level dip into Druid, you basically get 2 Druid Cantrips and 2 Spell slots to use, and the potential to get wildshape later if you want to lean harder into multiclassing. If, instead, you were to take Nature Domain Cleric, you get 3 Cleric Cantrips, 1 additional Druid Cantrip of your choice, Cleric spellcasting with 2 spell slots to spend, and you always have Animal Friendship and Speak with Animals prepared... plus proficiency in your choice of Animal Handling, Nature, or Survival, plus proficiency in heavy armor (which I assume you're not going to use, but hey, it's there).
The funny thing is that Nature Domain isn't a particularly good Cleric subclass... long-term it mostly ends up just being a Druid that lacks half the Druid features, but at first level it outclasses Druid pretty handily.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
I'm running a Four Elements Monk (I know, I know -- at least my DM allowed a couple fixes to make it more viable), but Magic Initiate immediately stuck out as a good option to give more elemental flavor, with cantrips like Produce Flame, Shape Water, and Absorb Elements. But considering I think it's unlikely our campaign goes to a very high level, and Monks only get 3 ASIs before level 16, and I'd like to pump up either DEX or WIS to 20 (currently 18 and 16, respectively) ... well, I was worrying that Feats cost too much in lost ability increases. Let alone that Mobile and Crusher are both very useful for Monks.
If I assume our campaign only reaches, say, 13th level, then I get 3 ASI/Feats if I go to 12 Monk levels.
I'd need to use all three on ASIs to get to 20/20. If I go Druid 1, then I can at least get the increased Elemental flavor from their cantrips and spells, at least.
ASI's and levels are both precious resources, and it really depends on the build which is the lower cost. It's further complicated by different spellcaster dips giving different bonuses.
To build off Transmorpher's recommendations, I'd consider Arcana domain cleric as well - you get 3 cleric cantrips (which aren't very elemental but can certainly be monk/enlightenment flavored) and two wizard cantrips (which have even more elemental options than druid and will still key off wis) plus Arcana and more spells. But monks are one of the classes where ASIs and levels are both very important, so it's a tough call.
Honestly Four Elements needs all the help it can get, so I'd try to talk your DM into giving you the 4 noncombat 'manipulate elements' cantrips for free. Or maybe on a magic item or something. You shouldn't need to spend extra resources just to complete the feel of your subclass, if that's what you're trying to do.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
OK it sounds like you are thinking about what to do when you hit level 4. Lets look at waht you lose compare to straight monk level with ASIs by level, I'll mention the Tasha's variant rules but haven't worked out how powerful they are yet.
Taking MI you are always down by an ASI
Taking a 1 level dip
After that the the monk features are probably either less powerful or more situational (though depending on your campaign immunity to poison could be really useful) until you get Diamond soul which is one of the biggest class features for any class at any level if the final boss fight is when you are at level 14 you do not want to be monk 13 / druid 1. If you campaign goes beyond 14 you really want diamond soul as soon as possible.
I know a level of druid gives you more than MI but you also lose a lot more monk bt dropping a level than losing an ASI. If you want o be as effective as possible go single class and takethe ASI, if you want to increase your elemental options for flavour reasons which way to go is up ot you.
I have the perception that MI is usually chosen because you want a specific cantrip, not because the lvl 1 spell. Of course there are some niches, but if you are interested in a particular spell, multiclass is better — you effectively add the spell to your spell list, can cast and upcast without worries.
Find Familiar is a great spell, but I personally don’t like as an option for MI because you’ll only use it ever again if your familiar is being killed.
If you want all the features, play the class. If you want some of the features, dip the class. If you want a taste of the features, pick up the feat.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Sort of a tangent... but for anyone who wants Find Familiar, Ritual Caster is a much better feat. You can continue to learn new Ritual Spells throughout the game, assuming your DM gives access to scrolls or spellbooks
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
I'd say that it depends on the class and how far you think it will go. Monk is one of those classes where certain levels are quite forgetable. If you know you are going all the way to level 20, for example, you can easily skip out on that last monk level for a multiclass dip. On the other hand if you know you are only going to level 14, I wouldn't want to skip out on Diamond Soul.
As for the perks themselves, I'm thinking that you need to look at what the multiclass actually brings of value. Will you actually have any use for the stuff your getting from a multiclass or are they just frills?
The level 20 feature is very weak so a monk 19/???? 1 is often the better option but if you are going to level 20 you probably want to get things like diamond sol at 14 rather than 15 so it is optimal to take the dip late. I have a level 18 open hand monk that I plan to take a class of cleric in. Still to decide whether to take it before or after the Feat/ASI (as an aside I was hoping to take fighting initiate mariner but it dod not make it intoTash'a)
Totally agree, I see much more use cases for MI when someone wants to leverage Booming Blade, Shillelagh or something similar.
Ritual Caster is a great underrated feat!