So reading through the armorer, arcane armor sounds like you can use any suit of armor you're wearing: "As an action, you can turn a suit of armor you are wearing into Arcane Armor, provided you have smith’s tools in hand." Following features indicate that your arcane armor can be split into different pieces and can each have an infusion. However, what if your armor is magical to start? Does the whole subclass break as infusions can't normally be used on magic armor? Does the more specific wording in these features override that basic rule?
The way I read it is that you can use any armor type (light, med, heavy, magic) to create the power armor; however, only nonmagical armor can be infused. This gives you the option to use magical armor for the power armor and retain its benefits, but you can't further enhance it. In most instances, it's going to be more beneficial to use an infusion on nonmagical armor; your mileage may vary and would depend on your DM's interpretation and how freely they give out magical items.
You learn how to use your artificer infusions to specially modify your Arcane Armor. That armor now counts as separate items for the purposes of your Infuse Items feature armor (the chest piece), boots, helmet, and the armor’s special weapon.
So when I read the two first sentence in the Armor Modifications feature, I end up interpreting it as not caring about if the armor you have is magical or not, because the purpose of this feature is to give you the ability to infuse your armor.
At least that is what I will be doing for the artificer in my games. Would be incredibly boring to be limited in this way, IMO.
One item that counts as four separate items for the purpose of bein infused, is what this feature say. A +1 plate is one magical item. It does not split into four magical items. The feature itself counts/views the armor as four items, which can be infused. The armor is still just one item (a magical item).
Or another way to look at it. You now have one magical item. The feature looks at the armor as if it have four subcategories or pockets that counts as "separate items" for the purpose of infusion. None of these pieces have their own stats, AC or anything, but can hold one infusion each.
The only info the four items has from anywhere is that they can be infused. They four pieces don't actually exists outside of this feature.
Then lets try the first part of the third sentence of the feature instead then (in blue bold):
"You learn how to use your artificer infusions to specially modify your Arcane Armor. That armor now counts as separate items for the purposes of your Infuse Items feature: armor (the chest piece), boots, helmet, and the armor’s special weapon. Each of those items can bear one of your infusions, and the infusions transfer over if you change your armor’s model with the Armor Model feature. In addition, the maximum number of items you can infuse at once increases by 2, but those extra items must be part of your Arcane Armor."
Dude, now you are clearly being stubborn. I copy/paste, showing you exactly where in the rules it say that these four items can be infused, so that is as good as an argument can be.
You aren't even trying to dispute it anymore either, so I give you this. Where does it say that those four items counts as magical? Read last post's part that I have in bold blue. It is clear on this issue; each of those items can bear an infusion.
The feature you quoted makes one change to the Infuse Item-feature. It now makes one singular item count as four for the purposes of infusions. It does not change the base requirement of needing said item to be "mundane". Therefore, Infusing armors as an armorer still requires a mundane armor.
This sounds like a case of specific beats general.
The rule that infusions require non-magical items is the general rule. Armor Modifications as a feature of the Armorer subclass is a specific rule that may or may not conflict with the general infusion rule.
If it does conflict (which to me it seems to) then the magic armor can be infused due to specifics > general. If it doesn't conflict then the magic armor cannot be infused.
However it doesn't have to be completely either/or here. The armor which was one item can now be treated as four items. So a compromise would be to consider the magic armor to negate the option for adding armor infusions but still able to accept boot, helmet, or weapon infusions.
If a DM is concerned about balance I'd recommend that compromise, otherwise an Armorer would be completely unable to use their 9th level subclass feature due to choosing to wear magic armor.
Reading the Armorer feature it does sound like it would break the armor apart into pieces. As far as magical armor, the only piece that is still considered the armor by this feature is the Chest Piece, making that the only magical item. If I were to rule this in one of my games, I would say the chest piece couldn't be infused but any of the other three could be.
So while you can't get any of the armor infusions, you can still infuse the boots, helm and gauntlet weapons to give your armor a bit more customization.
"That armor now counts as separate items for the purposes of your Infuse Items feature" The armor is not split into four pieces, it's still one singular armor. Imagine it as if the armor now has 4 slots for infusions, instead of just 1.
And when it comes to specific vs general, that only counts when the specific rule contradicts the general rule.
"Each of those items can bear one of your infusions" This doesn't contradict the original Infuse Item-rule, which states "Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch a non-magical object and imbue it with one of your artificer infusions, turning it into a magic item."
What it DOES contradict though, is the following statement: "Moreover, no object can bear more than one of your infusions at a time." Which means that THIS is the line where specific beats general.
Therefore, the level 9 feature of Armorer does NOT allow you to infuse magical armor.
"That armor now counts as separate items for the purposes of your Infuse Items feature" The armor is not split into four pieces, it's still one singular armor. Imagine it as if the armor now has 4 slots for infusions, instead of just 1.
Whether or not the item actually becomes four separate items is irrelevant if it still counts as four for the purposes of infusing items.
If that was where the feature description ended I might agree that it still required the armor to be non-magical, however it continues on directly stating "Each of those items can bear one of your infusions."
That is very clear and direct language. I read that as waiving the requirement that the base armor not be magical. Because otherwise that phrase would be completely unnecessary for the feature.
It's possible it's just redundant language but without any word clarifying rules as intended that's how I read it.
So how I initially read this, and why I started up the thread, is that it seems to me that it all hinges on the definition of your Arcane Armor. The rules seem to imply that magical armor can be used for Arcane Armor, and therefore the specific rules of the subclass would allow infusing your arcane armor with whatever you choose. If you want to infuse armor that isn't your AA, that would be bound by normal infusion rules and could not be magical.
Reading the Armorer feature it does sound like it would break the armor apart into pieces. As far as magical armor, the only piece that is still considered the armor by this feature is the Chest Piece, making that the only magical item. If I were to rule this in one of my games, I would say the chest piece couldn't be infused but any of the other three could be.
So while you can't get any of the armor infusions, you can still infuse the boots, helm and gauntlet weapons to give your armor a bit more customization.
This would be my ruling. Your power armor is not just your armor. It's your weapon, your helmet, and your boots too. Those are specific independent magic item slots that other characters can use, your slots are just rolled together for flavor. Infusions can't stack on each other any more than they can stack with a magical item, so allowing multiple infusions heavily implies that each of these pieces are separate things. While the argument that it isn't RAW is fairly strong, I feel the RAI tilts pretty far in the other direction.
Also just from a practical standpoint it's silly and non-intuitive that you can't enchant your weapons if you're using +1 armor. You shouldn't be penalized for interacting with magical items when your whole class is about understanding and manipulating magic items. And if there's some way to break things with a suit of amazing artifact armor, I'd just shut down that particular interaction.
Yeah no, I completely disagree with that interpretation. It just clarifies that you can put multiple infusions on it since it's now separate things even though it's still just the same armor you've always been wearing. It just opens up slots for more infusions on your armor, which otherwise would be impossible despite consisting of multiple parts since it normally counts as one whole item, but it doesn't change anything about how infusions work nor about the magical property of the armor.
If they wanted you to be able to infuse magical armor I feel they would have made that very clear. It's clearly not the intention and according to my reading not how it's worded either.
I feel like "That armor now counts as separate items for the purposes of your Infuse Items feature" already establishes multiple infusions on the same armor quite clearly. The "each item counts" etc line would be completely unnecessary to include if that's all it was meant to be.
I feel like the "each item counts" line is meant to bypass questions like "does this feature let you infuse magic armor" by outright saying the item counts.
The intention is apparently not that clear at all if two exact opposite conclusions can be drawn from the same sentence.
Wouldn't a suit of Arcane Armor be a magical item regardless of whatever suit of armor is chosen to become arcane armor? Arcane Armor enhances a suit of plate for example to have all sorts of otherwise magical bonuses. It's even called an "arcane" armor. Literally, everything the armor does, besides granting AC, is magical. Everything. That would make the level 9 feature pointless because you would never be able to use it unless you never wore your arcane armor, right?
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So reading through the armorer, arcane armor sounds like you can use any suit of armor you're wearing: "As an action, you can turn a suit of armor you are wearing into Arcane Armor, provided you have smith’s tools in hand." Following features indicate that your arcane armor can be split into different pieces and can each have an infusion. However, what if your armor is magical to start? Does the whole subclass break as infusions can't normally be used on magic armor? Does the more specific wording in these features override that basic rule?
The way I read it is that you can use any armor type (light, med, heavy, magic) to create the power armor; however, only nonmagical armor can be infused. This gives you the option to use magical armor for the power armor and retain its benefits, but you can't further enhance it. In most instances, it's going to be more beneficial to use an infusion on nonmagical armor; your mileage may vary and would depend on your DM's interpretation and how freely they give out magical items.
So when I read the two first sentence in the Armor Modifications feature, I end up interpreting it as not caring about if the armor you have is magical or not, because the purpose of this feature is to give you the ability to infuse your armor.
At least that is what I will be doing for the artificer in my games. Would be incredibly boring to be limited in this way, IMO.
One item that counts as four separate items for the purpose of bein infused, is what this feature say.
A +1 plate is one magical item. It does not split into four magical items. The feature itself counts/views the armor as four items, which can be infused. The armor is still just one item (a magical item).
Or another way to look at it. You now have one magical item. The feature looks at the armor as if it have four subcategories or pockets that counts as "separate items" for the purpose of infusion. None of these pieces have their own stats, AC or anything, but can hold one infusion each.
The only info the four items has from anywhere is that they can be infused. They four pieces don't actually exists outside of this feature.
Then lets try the first part of the third sentence of the feature instead then (in blue bold):
"You learn how to use your artificer infusions to specially modify your Arcane Armor. That armor now counts as separate items for the purposes of your Infuse Items feature: armor (the chest piece), boots, helmet, and the armor’s special weapon. Each of those items can bear one of your infusions, and the infusions transfer over if you change your armor’s model with the Armor Model feature. In addition, the maximum number of items you can infuse at once increases by 2, but those extra items must be part of your Arcane Armor."
There is the word for it.
Dude, now you are clearly being stubborn. I copy/paste, showing you exactly where in the rules it say that these four items can be infused, so that is as good as an argument can be.
You aren't even trying to dispute it anymore either, so I give you this. Where does it say that those four items counts as magical?
Read last post's part that I have in bold blue. It is clear on this issue; each of those items can bear an infusion.
The feature you quoted makes one change to the Infuse Item-feature. It now makes one singular item count as four for the purposes of infusions. It does not change the base requirement of needing said item to be "mundane". Therefore, Infusing armors as an armorer still requires a mundane armor.
This sounds like a case of specific beats general.
The rule that infusions require non-magical items is the general rule.
Armor Modifications as a feature of the Armorer subclass is a specific rule that may or may not conflict with the general infusion rule.
If it does conflict (which to me it seems to) then the magic armor can be infused due to specifics > general.
If it doesn't conflict then the magic armor cannot be infused.
However it doesn't have to be completely either/or here. The armor which was one item can now be treated as four items. So a compromise would be to consider the magic armor to negate the option for adding armor infusions but still able to accept boot, helmet, or weapon infusions.
If a DM is concerned about balance I'd recommend that compromise, otherwise an Armorer would be completely unable to use their 9th level subclass feature due to choosing to wear magic armor.
Reading the Armorer feature it does sound like it would break the armor apart into pieces. As far as magical armor, the only piece that is still considered the armor by this feature is the Chest Piece, making that the only magical item. If I were to rule this in one of my games, I would say the chest piece couldn't be infused but any of the other three could be.
So while you can't get any of the armor infusions, you can still infuse the boots, helm and gauntlet weapons to give your armor a bit more customization.
"That armor now counts as separate items for the purposes of your Infuse Items feature"
The armor is not split into four pieces, it's still one singular armor. Imagine it as if the armor now has 4 slots for infusions, instead of just 1.
And when it comes to specific vs general, that only counts when the specific rule contradicts the general rule.
"Each of those items can bear one of your infusions"
This doesn't contradict the original Infuse Item-rule, which states
"Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch a non-magical object and imbue it with one of your artificer infusions, turning it into a magic item."
What it DOES contradict though, is the following statement:
"Moreover, no object can bear more than one of your infusions at a time."
Which means that THIS is the line where specific beats general.
Therefore, the level 9 feature of Armorer does NOT allow you to infuse magical armor.
Whether or not the item actually becomes four separate items is irrelevant if it still counts as four for the purposes of infusing items.
If that was where the feature description ended I might agree that it still required the armor to be non-magical, however it continues on directly stating "Each of those items can bear one of your infusions."
That is very clear and direct language. I read that as waiving the requirement that the base armor not be magical. Because otherwise that phrase would be completely unnecessary for the feature.
It's possible it's just redundant language but without any word clarifying rules as intended that's how I read it.
So how I initially read this, and why I started up the thread, is that it seems to me that it all hinges on the definition of your Arcane Armor. The rules seem to imply that magical armor can be used for Arcane Armor, and therefore the specific rules of the subclass would allow infusing your arcane armor with whatever you choose. If you want to infuse armor that isn't your AA, that would be bound by normal infusion rules and could not be magical.
This would be my ruling. Your power armor is not just your armor. It's your weapon, your helmet, and your boots too. Those are specific independent magic item slots that other characters can use, your slots are just rolled together for flavor. Infusions can't stack on each other any more than they can stack with a magical item, so allowing multiple infusions heavily implies that each of these pieces are separate things. While the argument that it isn't RAW is fairly strong, I feel the RAI tilts pretty far in the other direction.
Also just from a practical standpoint it's silly and non-intuitive that you can't enchant your weapons if you're using +1 armor. You shouldn't be penalized for interacting with magical items when your whole class is about understanding and manipulating magic items. And if there's some way to break things with a suit of amazing artifact armor, I'd just shut down that particular interaction.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I feel like "That armor now counts as separate items for the purposes of your Infuse Items feature" already establishes multiple infusions on the same armor quite clearly.
The "each item counts" etc line would be completely unnecessary to include if that's all it was meant to be.
I feel like the "each item counts" line is meant to bypass questions like "does this feature let you infuse magic armor" by outright saying the item counts.
The intention is apparently not that clear at all if two exact opposite conclusions can be drawn from the same sentence.
Wouldn't a suit of Arcane Armor be a magical item regardless of whatever suit of armor is chosen to become arcane armor? Arcane Armor enhances a suit of plate for example to have all sorts of otherwise magical bonuses. It's even called an "arcane" armor. Literally, everything the armor does, besides granting AC, is magical. Everything. That would make the level 9 feature pointless because you would never be able to use it unless you never wore your arcane armor, right?