Okay, so it's obvious to say that both the gunslinger and renegade fight subclasses are gun based fighter subclass that took different approaches. I'll need more time to make a completely realized opinion between the two subclasses, but my first impressions when it comes to comparing them is that I prefer Mercer's gunslinger. At the moment I feel this way because I mercer's subclass treats firearms as items then made a subclass around special uses of the firearms. While the renegade subclass treats guns as a subclass feature on its own and because of this the guns in this subclass seem a bit strange because they aren't fully realized items. Namely due to the fact that there's missing information about the firearms that I think should be there, such as the reloading property (depending on the firearms), it's a ranged weapon without a second range increment, no information about ammunition, and/or gun maintenance, and I'm probably missing other factors too. I just don't know currently, I need to look more into how this subclass works and see how the numbers turn out, but at the moment it just feels like a discount gunslinger to me.

I would say renegade. Just cause I play League. But also it lets you have different specialties, making a party of them work well (though obviously not perfect). Though yes, the range and reload etc isn't there.

I can understand that, I never really got into LoL, but after talking a bit more with some people from my group. We all basically came to the same conclusion that the subclass feels a bit too videogamie for us with how it handles firearms as a feature rather than an item. Which honestly, I love the idea of having a gun based subclass where the main mechanic of it is based around customizing you weapon with attachments and part that grant your weapon special abilities. Though I probably would have liked something like mechanically to be made for an artificer instead of a fighter.

I think it comes down to League. It matches miss fortune, Graves, and a few other people (I want jhin. ). This is why. Same with the wild card rogue. It's based off of twisted fate, and so all the abilities match his. Path of the depths? Pyke's abilities. The names are even the same. But I like the customisability, even if it doesn't fit just right.

I much prefer Gunslinger. Renegade is very video-game ish, and realism is completely ignored. It is also super unbalanced. A double-barrel sighted sniper rifle can let you deal 12d10 damage per turn, without even attempting to min-max. 

Yeah, after doing a closer look of each of the new subclasses, the path of the depths looks fine to me, the renegade my first opinion is my opinion (don't feel like elaborating more atm), and the rogue one even though I really like the flavor and play style is very hit or miss. I personally think they should've spent more time editing and balancing these subclasses, but that's just me.

Quote from FallenPhoenixIV >>

Okay, so it's obvious to say that both the gunslinger and renegade fight subclasses are gun based fighter subclass that took different approaches. I'll need more time to make a completely realized opinion between the two subclasses, but my first impressions when it comes to comparing them is that I prefer Mercer's gunslinger. At the moment I feel this way because I mercer's subclass treats firearms as items then made a subclass around special uses of the firearms. While the renegade subclass treats guns as a subclass feature on its own and because of this the guns in this subclass seem a bit strange because they aren't fully realized items. Namely due to the fact that there's missing information about the firearms that I think should be there, such as the reloading property (depending on the firearms), it's a ranged weapon without a second range increment, no information about ammunition, and/or gun maintenance, and I'm probably missing other factors too. I just don't know currently, I need to look more into how this subclass works and see how the numbers turn out, but at the moment it just feels like a discount gunslinger to me.

 You make a valid assessment. I would, however, point out that the Renagade mentions "Hextech weapons" in it's flavor and features. I am assuming that Hextech is no different than the "magitek" used by magewights in Eberron. For this reason, I would argue that the Renegade makes for a good compromise in a setting where real-world style firearms would be unallowed by a DM. There is also something to be said of the simplicity of not requiring a new Fighter mechanic, Grit, as the Gunslinger does. 

An advantage of the subclass is that to even use the Renegade's firearm one has to have the Gunfighter Form feature. Therefore, no one can steal it and use it against the player or proliferate firearms in a setting where they are not normally welcomed. For this reason, the Renegade might be easily reflavored as a "magic arbalester," a marksman on par with an Arcane Archer. One big gripe I have about the Renegade is that there is no way to replace the hextech firearm should it be lost or destroyed in any of the features, as far as I can tell. 

In conclusion, it's a magic gunfighter. The Renegade could happyly sit next to the Artillerist Artificer in any setting that Artificers are found, as a fellow wangslinger or arcaneer. 

I prefer the approach Renegade uses. Gunslinger is way too dependent on what guns the DM happens to throw at you and how rare he decides they are, thus they can vary widely in effectiveness from table to table. Making your gun a part of your class features ensures that it's you making the decisions of how you will fight. I do think it needs some tweaks to balance features as some are pretty much non-choices because they're that much better. But I've never been into Gunslinger because it shifts pretty much all the gun options onto the DM, which I don't appreciate as a player or a DM.

Having played a Gunslinger for 3 months, I have to say it was really annoying dealing with misfires and guns breaking, at one point both of my guns (which I used from level 3 to 8) broke on a big fight and I was pretty useless using a hand crossbow and short sword to do anything. Also with poor tinkering rolls and no means of making either of my guns magical, I fell behind on damage pretty quick. So I ended up really disliking the class from 6 to 8 until I died and the group only had one diamond to revivify only one of the two dead characters, so they chose wisely and brought the Cleric back to life instead of me. 

Being the only player in the group that actually enjoys the role playing side of D&D, I'm always the one with who puts points into CHA and ends up being the face of the party (even as a barbarian). So if I had the choice between a Mercer/Pathfinder Gunslinger or a Renegade, I would've chosen the Renegade. The pistoleer with the Blade and Black Powder perk fits my play style very well, and with the lvl 7 ability I don't have to worry about finding a magical gun by chance. Not to mention the 2 free social skills is so awesome. I also really appreciate the dependancy on CHA for many of this archetypes abilities. 

So my vote goes to Renegade for the next time I get to make another character. 

Quote from SpencerXIII >>

Having played a Gunslinger for 3 months, I have to say it was really annoying dealing with misfires and guns breaking, at one point both of my guns (which I used from level 3 to 8) broke on a big fight and I was pretty useless using a hand crossbow and short sword to do anything. Also with poor tinkering rolls and no means of making either of my guns magical...

This is an interesting point. Can the Renegade make their firearms magical, outside of the features and Upgrades? What about magic or even silvered ammo? Do Renegades track their ammo/bullets like a longbow using Fighter would? Can the Renegade use the Sharpshooter feat? The Renegade's "firearm" seems to be a feature RAW, not an item or weapon. It seems like it just magically has bullets. 

I see this class as a magic gunslinger in many ways. The level 7 feature Cunning Shot basically circumvents resistance to nonmagical piercing damage. So I guess there is no need to spend gold on magic bullets after 7th. I could, however, see a player trying to get the firearm to be a Flame Tongue gun or something like that to add fire damage, for example. Then again as a DM I might argue that the only option are the Upgrades listed in the class.

What would your call be as a DM?

My thing about the comment about the gunslinger player not getting a magic firearm is 100% the fault of the DM. Part of the gunslinger subclass is that they know how to craft their own firearms and ammo. So if your DM didn't allow you to do that then that'd would be on him;

"Upon choosing this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency with Tinker’s Tools. You may use them to craft ammunition at half the cost, repair damaged firearms, or even draft and create new ones (DM’s discretion). Some extremely experimental and intricate firearms are only available through crafting."

I can understand not liking the misfiring mechanic, but that'd probably be because it didn't happen to me that often when I played one, to each's own for that.

Hopefully not too much of a zombie thread.. but I really like the Pistoleer.  I like to think of the pistols as a magically summoned arcane focus, instead of as a weapon. Mechanically it's not much different than Elderitch blast, if you compare the two. I prefer this approach to the Gunslinger, just because it's relatively simple to implement, without awkward mechanics like misfire and reload. 

Yipee-Kiyay I'm a fighter with a magic gun. 

My biggest thoughts and possibly concerns are with any sub/class that turns a feature into a weapon is the lack of upgrading (other than through other features). Take the beast barbarian. They can choose natural weapons, double claws, horns or a tail.. but that's it. You're stuck with these for the entire game. Same with the monk and the moon druid. But at least the monk increases their martial arts die and druids can choose different animals but other than resistances, magical weapons increase both attack and damage, which none of the above classes get which is why the Insignia of the Claw is the ONLY option for these guys.. we're not even talking about cool weapon additions like flame tongue, vorpal, etc.

Same thing with the Renegade. You get what you get and you don't get upset... at least weapon wise... sure they have the upgrades but those feel more like features added to their weapons akin to [blinding, searing, banishing, etc] smites on a paladin or ensnaring strike on a ranger's bow which could easily apply on a rifle, +3

and regarding the lack of firearms that previous posts mentioned, that honestly IS on the DM.. You can say the same thing with a fighter who uses a longsword. If the DM does not give him any better weapons you can't blame the class.. it's part of the game. And sure, if you're using a non conventional sub/class that doesn't need the conventional loot that is given in published adventures then speak to your DM, "Hey. So since you said it's cool that I can use firearms, I think you should just be aware that if the game says to give a longbow, +1 can you consider that I use firearms instead and convert that into a rifle, +1 instead?" Even if the DM wants to be cool and start adding flame tongue or vicious firearms even though it's not in the DMG then so be it... sheesh. For every other unique magical weapon in the DMG there are 10 swords. There's only 1 magical long bow (oathbow), they just released a Theros Shortbow. Lot of other weapons get the short end too. I doubt they even considered putting unique magical firearms when it was an optional rule to begin with. Be a generous DM, take traits and abilities from other existing weapons, give it to a firearm or just make something fresh. You can't blame the DMG for ruining the gunslinger when it's not even an official class anyway 

A wizard may need to have the same conversation with the DM with finding spells/scrolls but it's still dealt with in most games... if for some reason they are not finding any, let them speak to the DM. I did the same with my DM on my tome warlock when I wasn't finding any rituals to copy down.