Sounds more like some other factor is the cause of the problem you describe, since you've encountered it enough to apparently believe it's unavoidable and I've deliberately avoided the problems you describe by no means other than using what tools the game books give - except for the "change whatever you want" tool, because I believe that if I'm making anything more than a handful of minor changes to a game, I might as well just find a different game to play.
Actually, it sounds like they're regurgitating commonly repeated myths that have been hovering around for years and get repeated by people who never actually played those editions. I see it a lot with younger people who want to appear like they're grognards with years of experience but don't actually have the knowledge base from that experience.
I don't want to presume they aren't honestly expressing their experiences, but I will chime in that it doesn't match my experiences at all going back through every edition (other than 4th, only played that a couple times) back to BECMI. We never had trouble challenging PCs even when we did crazy game breaking things like extending the 1e monk chart past the max level. :) Only difficulty we ever had with high level was in 3.x/PF where so many situational bonuses and options would slow things down with all that added complexity (that unfortunately didn't have a commensurate amount of added fun). But challenging high level PCs even going back to the Immortals rules up through 3.x Epic levels of mid to upper 20's has never been a problem in any our campaigns. Other experiences may differ, of course. But the experiences of every group I have played in has been plenty of fun and challenges at low and high levels in every edition.
I'd like to see more content produced for 10+ level characters. MToF is a good start.
Also WoC should try to understand why it's common for people to stop playing a character by 10th level.
Why is it common for people to stop playing by 10th level?
Life. Life gets in the way.
It's just a matter of staying power IMO. I've been playing as Grunk the Barbarian/Wizard (headband of intellect, just in case you're wondering.. :) )for about 2 years now (PoA). We're 11th level (Grunk is 8/3). We'll finish, even if it takes us another year. ;) . But yea, we've had a few dry periods where we didn't play for a while.
Also WoC should try to understand why it's common for people to stop playing a character by 10th level.
They actually already did put work into trying to understand that phenomenon. During play-testing, and a while after the edition had released, they conducted surveys. First to figure out when people's campaigns were ending and why, and then to see if any of the major changes they made in effort to ameliorate those reasons for campaigns ending had produced any effect.
For most people, at this point, campaigns end around 10th level (or slightly after) because that's when they are used to campaigns ending - it's become circular, with a lot of folks just not even trying to play to higher levels because they are used to higher levels not working out (roughly the equivalent of never going back to a restaurant at which you've previously gotten sick from eating, no matter what changes have been made to staff, procedures, or menu).
To that i will add... Spells and class abilities makes it very very unbalanced at higher levels...
in comparisions... high levels in 2e were beastly and could kill anything in one single blow. in 3e a level 11 could easily kill a level 20+ monster. in 5e the players can easily kill stuff 5 levels above them beginning at 9th level.
reason for those are character classes abilities which becames so much more powerfull over the course of the adventure. and i'm not even including magic items which literally add more levels to the maximum you can defeat. the other major thing that makes gameplay not really good at level 10+ are spells. starting ludicrous magic at level 3, the likes of fly and fireballs at level 5 spell casting you start getting really really out of whack spells that literally reshape the battlefield. fixing these big spells is prooving next to an impossible task as the spells just continues to be stronger then anything else. in 5e, as an exemple, beginning at level 9+ every mages is required to have counter spell and dispel magic, otherwise the group just get wrecked by villains or villains just get wrecked by the group. a great exemple of that is the final of the first campaign of critical role against vecna ! the bard, sam riegel literally only counter spelled all fight. if he was doing anything else then that, the group would get wrecked badly.
when the only thing you can do is stop those spells from firing off, then you know something is wrong.
so yeah ever since first edition, spells have been the bane of D&D. making campaigns get derailed, bbeg being one shotted, characters being removed entirely from combat and passing the whole session waiting fo combat to finish. i tryed to solve these spells so often now and failing miserably, that i came to the conclusion that spells should never be able to go above the 5th level mark. anything above that is just way too strong.
fun fact about spells too... Grease and web are level 2 only and are very good even against dragons and higher level monsters. from 1e to 5e, these two spells have single handedly wrecked encounters left and right. still are the best shit you can wield on a battlefield !
Short story that hapenned like 2 weeks ago. my group of 7 level 10 players fought a beholder. i had made that beholder a lair and thus he was CR14, i added him life and boosted up his AC by 2. he was a bbeg... right from the get go the bbeg had surprise and thus magic didn't work on the gorup. fortunately for them being in a clump actually helped them off, as the beholder couldn't shoot while watching them with his anti magic cone in their face. so i stopped watching the paladin and concentrated on the cleric... before i go on, just remember, my players have maximum +1 weapons and barely any real item to help them, so its by abilities only here. the paladin once at his turn, casted Hypnotic Pattern to my surprise there is no drawback to this spell. you could tell me its hit or miss, but the result is undeniable... the bbeg gets wrecked instantly ! so the paladin cast it, my bbeg even with +7 to wis saves fails it. so for 1 whole minute without disturbing it, they prepare actions. so because of that everything happens at once... players attacks, spells fires... my bbeg as average life of 180, i gave him 240. but in a single turn, spells like blight, and the likes happens... my monster lost in a single round... 200 HP ! as if that was not enough, that was all readied actions, 3 of them were still up top the beholder in initiatives. so they play and kill it.
there you have it, the story of how my bbeg got wrecked by a mere level 3 spell ! this is in 5e.
Well, IMO, spells in 5E feel watered down relative to 1E and 2E. Grease is limited IMO. First person entering the area may get tripped up, but everyone else can easily avoid it unless you're in a fairly small space. And it really is a one shot deal unless the person who entered the area of effect (a 10 foot square) ends their turn there. So, a person doesn't have to make a Dex save when exiting the area of effect (unless they end their turn there, but why would anyone do that...). IMO, they should have to make a Dex save when both entering and exiting the area of effect.
@DnDPaladin How did they "prepare actions" over 10 rounds? You can't prepare 10 actions, you prepare something based on a trigger, it either happens or doesn't, and either way at the start of your next turn the prepared action is gone.
@DnDPaladin How did they "prepare actions" over 10 rounds? You can't prepare 10 actions, you prepare something based on a trigger, it either happens or doesn't, and either way at the start of your next turn the prepared action is gone.
They spent the time sewing together a really big eye patch! Or if they are Scooby-Doo fans, maybe they set up a barber's shop (or more thematically, an optician's) to confuse the BBEG.
So this beholder was so mesmerised by the pretty colours flashing before it, that it didn't want to look at it with it's biggest eye? Speaking as a man, I have been similarly captivated by *ahem* visions of loveliness, and despite losing the ability to talk coherently or avoid drooling, I was still able to turn my head to follow as it passed out of my line of sight. Sometimes, when in a car, the ability to turn my head was increased to near whip-lash inducing speeds.
Incapacitated precludes taking actions or reactions; floating around your central axis to look at the pretty colours hardly counts as either. I suggest that the spell all but forces the Beholder to give it its full attention (and unintentionally cancelling the magic.)
Otherwise, I tend to agree with DnDPaladin - higher level spells seem to be the death knoll for my interest as a DM. Characters can "easily" overcome so many obstacles (not necessarily monsters) by using mobility based spells such as teleport, passwall, dimension door, even disintegrate. High level 'monsters' usual have a plethora of spells and abilities that the poor beleaguered DM has to remember. I can see all my NPC cleric foes just relying on spamming Guiding Bolt with most of their spell slots! The solution is for me to stop being so lazy and unimaginative, but that is easier said than done.
So that is something else I agree to wanting to see in 2018 - feasible, 'easy' to run, higher level modules. But only for those times when I am feeling less than brilliant! :D (That would be weekdays, and most Sundays. Sometimes on a Saturday. All of July - no one can be expected to be brilliant in July, when the temperature often soars into the low 20s.)
fun fact about spells too... Grease and web are level 2 only and are very good even against dragons and higher level monsters. from 1e to 5e, these two spells have single handedly wrecked encounters left and right. still are the best shit you can wield on a battlefield !
You do realize all dragons have a flying speed, and the CR 10+ ones have Legendary Resistance, right? Not that they'd be stupid enough to fight on the ground, but they're also proficient in DEX saves.
The worst thing Grease can do is knock creatures prone. Anyone can do that with a skill check. It's not a big deal.
@DnDPaladin How did they "prepare actions" over 10 rounds? You can't prepare 10 actions, you prepare something based on a trigger, it either happens or doesn't, and either way at the start of your next turn the prepared action is gone.
They didn't prepare 10 actions... thats the point.. in one single round, doing their attacks and normal pattern, they all did pretty much 200 HP in one single round. had i not added life to a beholder, it would of died instantly. Also the triggered action was the druid blight, as soon as he cast it, they all attack and unleash their readied spell and attacks on it. but the real problem doesn't come from there, it comes from how readied action works... readied action intterupts the flow of combat to allow said triggers to work. the problem with the spell is that it doesn't allow any other saves, so if the creature fails, it literally stops moving for 10 rounds. after reading a lot about it to make sure of certain things... i realised, legendary actions are also actions, and it cannot take actions. lair actions are also actions taken by beholder. it literally states the lair actions are taken by the beholder, thus he can't take actions either. he cannot take reactions. as for it moving its head to follow around.. look at the incapacitated conditions. nope, it cannot do anything ! per the condition of incapacitated, the creature cannot move at all, not just movement based stuff, it just cannot move. basically the creature is almost unconscious. also in 10 rounds, do you not think they simply circled the beholder to avoid his big eye ? they were all out of his cone when that hapenned. while the beholder cna turn his head any time as a free action. it would be ridiculous because it would mean any casters would just never cast even if not in the cone. this would be ludicrous. so i judged that it must be his turn for him to do it.
all in all, low level spells are already abusive if you combo them with regular tactics like door fighting. now imagine spells of level 9 who can simply encompass a whole room in a cave and leave no room for escape. it is to wonder how that rogue could evade it.
@PlunderedTomb I agree that it is easy to avoid the web and grease spell, but reality being that you have to read it correctly... if they enter it for the first time "In a turn" they have to make the save. so if the guy ever passes thru it even if he didn't intend on stopping in it. he will have to make the save. and thus the whole area of the spell becomes very difficult terrain and that changes a lot of the dynamic of the terrain. its hard to avoid this thing in combat when left in a room of 40x40 when the spell has a radius of either 15 or 20 which means it just does the whole room. sure it is much much less then 1e and 2e. because now they can get out of it. but in a game where people can just one shot any creature except int he first 2 levels of the game. it is hard to have any big threat be alive the next round.
overall the problem is that even if they watered down the spells, there are very big problems in the mechanics of said spells.
the other problem is, as you mentionned, most spells just outright solves everything. so unless you start using the same spells against your players, there is no way they can have a challenge. and if you start playing the big spells against them, they end up in a counter spell war or a death spiral. in both cases, there is no fun to be had. this is my problem with it.
Now we're continuing this adventure, because my players wants to go all the way up. see for themselves, what it looks like. and i'm fine with it. but at this point my BBEG already needs to be gods almost. beholder was 4 cr higher then them. a beholder by its hit dice is actually level 19. they defeated a monster that is literally 9 levels above them in an instant, and that is without any real magic items. sure the druid uses endless decanter of water as an attack, but that only deals 1d4. so thats not very big on the use. aside from that, their weapon is +1. no big deal either. either way, there was no fun to be had. now i do have a bbeg that is literally an archdevil of greed. he's CR24. i'm quite sure he can one shot some of them, but hey they'd have a challenge.
conclusion, charcater classes and higher spells pushes the power level of the game too high and puts the game in an unbalanced states. the only balancing act they actually did, was to say that villains can use such spells too. which makes death spirals and OTK (one turn kill) hapenning too easily.
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would love to see Planescape also and maybe a dragonlance one also. I played planescape when i was stationed in korea back in 96-97 loved every minute of it cause you had keep on your toes depending on where you were .
I would like to see my spell dc on the sheet instead of having to go figure it out every time my DM ask me for it
Wait what class do you have? I can confirm for druid, paladin and warlock that the spell save dc appears right next the spell name on "Prepared Spells"/"Known Spells".
@DnDPaladin - that was the inquisitive Coder saying about grease.
But....
An incapacitated creature can't take actions or reactions.
That literally doesn't mention moving. I also wonder why the Genius level Beholder decides to just stare at the army of 7 PCs literally invading his lair. All that Anti-magic cone does is suppress magic. That leaves him with literally 2 options - bite one of them, or try to distract them with his dancing pseudopod eyes.
Yes, he is CR 5 greater than them, but in 5th Edition numbers count for more than they ever have before.
in one single round, doing their attacks and normal pattern, they all did pretty much 200 HP in one single round.
That sounds like a thing which doesn't rely upon that the beholder failed a save against hypnotic pattern to be true or not.
...as for it moving its head to follow around.. look at the incapacitated conditions. nope, it cannot do anything ! per the condition of incapacitated, the creature cannot move at all, not just movement based stuff, it just cannot move.
Not even kind of true. Take a comparative look at incapacitated and paralyzed. One prevents all movement (because it says "can't move"), and the other just prevents taking actions (which only means the things found under Actions in Combat).
You're effectively house-ruling stuff (even if you didn't mean to) to be even more in favor of your player characters than it is by RAW, and then insisting the RAW are causing you problems.
but in a game where people can just one shot any creature except int he first 2 levels of the game.
That's not how 5th edition plays at my table - what creatures are you seeing be "one shot" and by what characters?
conclusion, charcater classes and higher spells pushes the power level of the game too high and puts the game in an unbalanced states.
Meanwhile at my table a party of a dwarven assassin, elf druid, human necromancer, medusa (yes, with all the traits found in the Monster Manual) fighter, and human transmuter that are all packing a handful of potent magical items (example: wand of paralysis, and some +2 weapons) and are 11th level (except the medusa, who only has 7 levels of fighter blended with her medusa traits) get a solid feeling of challenge from facing off against 5 or so trolls (or other CR 5 monsters).
Back to the topic, with Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes announced, I'm guessing the next book will be an adventure (though Mike Mearls did say in a recent video that he doesn't want to become predictable with a release schedule).
I think something into the outer planes would be really awesome. I don't know much about them, and I think some adventures outside of the material plane (at least partly) would be super intriguing.
Also, if we are sticking with Abeir-Toril of Forgotten Realms, I would like to go to Zakhara of the Al-Qadim campaign setting, or exploring some of Kara-Tur, Maztica or any number of the currently unexplored lands of Toril: Osse, Laerako, Aurune, Anchorome, Katashaka, Ama Basin, The Shining South, The Land of Flying Monkeys, Tabaxiland, Umbara, Wa, Kosakura, Taan and so on. We have been to the Sword Coast of Faerun. Tomb of Annihilation took us to Chult of Southwestern Faerun. Why not see the rest of the world.
Back to the topic, with Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes announced, I'm guessing the next book will be an adventure (though Mike Mearls did say in a recent video that he doesn't want to become predictable with a release schedule).
I think something into the outer planes would be really awesome. I don't know much about them, and I think some adventures outside of the material plane (at least partly) would be super intriguing.
It is no secret. Tome of foes is actually a tome of the planes that speaks of other campaign settings. It also has new races for players and a few more monsters for the higher levels of play.
The website itself says as much. Which surprises me since the next book was supposed to be an adventure and instead we get another supplement book.
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in one single round, doing their attacks and normal pattern, they all did pretty much 200 HP in one single round.
That sounds like a thing which doesn't rely upon that the beholder failed a save against hypnotic pattern to be true or not.
...as for it moving its head to follow around.. look at the incapacitated conditions. nope, it cannot do anything ! per the condition of incapacitated, the creature cannot move at all, not just movement based stuff, it just cannot move.
Not even kind of true. Take a comparative look at incapacitated and paralyzed. One prevents all movement (because it says "can't move"), and the other just prevents taking actions (which only means the things found under Actions in Combat).
You're effectively house-ruling stuff (even if you didn't mean to) to be even more in favor of your player characters than it is by RAW, and then insisting the RAW are causing you problems.
but in a game where people can just one shot any creature except int he first 2 levels of the game.
That's not how 5th edition plays at my table - what creatures are you seeing be "one shot" and by what characters?
conclusion, charcater classes and higher spells pushes the power level of the game too high and puts the game in an unbalanced states.
Meanwhile at my table a party of a dwarven assassin, elf druid, human necromancer, medusa (yes, with all the traits found in the Monster Manual) fighter, and human transmuter that are all packing a handful of potent magical items (example: wand of paralysis, and some +2 weapons) and are 11th level (except the medusa, who only has 7 levels of fighter blended with her medusa traits) get a solid feeling of challenge from facing off against 5 or so trolls (or other CR 5 monsters).
No i am not house ruling anything... If anything by allowing the beholder any movement of its main eye during others turn... You are house ruling. Since the cone can only be moved during its own turn. Which it cant do since its incapacitated. Also... As far as i am concerned and as far as sage advice go... Lair actions and legendary actions are still actions the beholder does which it cant because paralysed... I also wants you to read how readied actions works.
As for your group to not one shots creatures... Well if your group always gets low damage or do not min max voluntarily then be happy they dont. But as far as i know... A paladin level 10 with smite and 2 attacks which can both smites with that great sword and rerolling 1s and 2s... Thats a lot of damage in one round. Spells also goes above 20 damages and 7 players going one after the other by taking advantage of positionning in the initiatives can really blow you up real bad.
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DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
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Back to the topic, with Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes announced, I'm guessing the next book will be an adventure (though Mike Mearls did say in a recent video that he doesn't want to become predictable with a release schedule).
I think something into the outer planes would be really awesome. I don't know much about them, and I think some adventures outside of the material plane (at least partly) would be super intriguing.
It is no secret. Tome of foes is actually a tome of the planes that speaks of other campaign settings. It also has new races for players and a few more monsters for the higher levels of play.
The website itself says as much. Which surprises me since the next book was supposed to be an adventure and instead we get another supplement book.
I'm actually just curious, where on the website does it say that it talks of other campaign settings? It mentions it talks of wars across the planes but no where I can see does it say anything about campaign settings? I wasnt able to find it but it would be cool if that was true.
Also where did you find that the next book was supposed to be an adventure? As far as I was aware there was no order to the books at all, in fact they purposefully dont have an order to the books.
Back to the topic, with Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes announced, I'm guessing the next book will be an adventure (though Mike Mearls did say in a recent video that he doesn't want to become predictable with a release schedule).
I think something into the outer planes would be really awesome. I don't know much about them, and I think some adventures outside of the material plane (at least partly) would be super intriguing.
It is no secret. Tome of foes is actually a tome of the planes that speaks of other campaign settings. It also has new races for players and a few more monsters for the higher levels of play.
The website itself says as much. Which surprises me since the next book was supposed to be an adventure and instead we get another supplement book.
I'm actually just curious, where on the website does it say that it talks of other campaign settings? It mentions it talks of wars across the planes but no where I can see does it say anything about campaign settings? I wasnt able to find it but it would be cool if that was true.
Also where did you find that the next book was supposed to be an adventure? As far as I was aware there was no order to the books at all, in fact they purposefully dont have an order to the books.
Right, in the video i linked (which i know is like 2 hours long) Mike Mearls specifically says at one point that they were becoming predictable and didnt want to do that. Hence the next book (tome of foes) being a supplement, but I was stating I’d assume that eould mean an adventure would follow as we had two supplements in a row.
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@DnDPaladin How did they "prepare actions" over 10 rounds? You can't prepare 10 actions, you prepare something based on a trigger, it either happens or doesn't, and either way at the start of your next turn the prepared action is gone.
Or if they are Scooby-Doo fans, maybe they set up a barber's shop (or more thematically, an optician's) to confuse the BBEG.
Speaking as a man, I have been similarly captivated by *ahem* visions of loveliness, and despite losing the ability to talk coherently or avoid drooling, I was still able to turn my head to follow as it passed out of my line of sight. Sometimes, when in a car, the ability to turn my head was increased to near whip-lash inducing speeds.
The solution is for me to stop being so lazy and unimaginative, but that is easier said than done.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I agree that it is easy to avoid the web and grease spell, but reality being that you have to read it correctly... if they enter it for the first time "In a turn" they have to make the save. so if the guy ever passes thru it even if he didn't intend on stopping in it. he will have to make the save. and thus the whole area of the spell becomes very difficult terrain and that changes a lot of the dynamic of the terrain. its hard to avoid this thing in combat when left in a room of 40x40 when the spell has a radius of either 15 or 20 which means it just does the whole room. sure it is much much less then 1e and 2e. because now they can get out of it. but in a game where people can just one shot any creature except int he first 2 levels of the game. it is hard to have any big threat be alive the next round.
so unless you start using the same spells against your players, there is no way they can have a challenge.
and if you start playing the big spells against them, they end up in a counter spell war or a death spiral. in both cases, there is no fun to be had.
this is my problem with it.
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I would like to see my spell dc on the sheet instead of having to go figure it out every time my DM ask me for it
would love to see Planescape also and maybe a dragonlance one also. I played planescape when i was stationed in korea back in 96-97 loved every minute of it cause you had keep on your toes depending on where you were .
And I cast Heroism on the community.
@DnDPaladin - that was the inquisitive Coder saying about grease.
But....
That literally doesn't mention moving.
I also wonder why the Genius level Beholder decides to just stare at the army of 7 PCs literally invading his lair. All that Anti-magic cone does is suppress magic. That leaves him with literally 2 options - bite one of them, or try to distract them with his dancing pseudopod eyes.
Yes, he is CR 5 greater than them, but in 5th Edition numbers count for more than they ever have before.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
That sounds like a thing which doesn't rely upon that the beholder failed a save against hypnotic pattern to be true or not.
Not even kind of true. Take a comparative look at incapacitated and paralyzed. One prevents all movement (because it says "can't move"), and the other just prevents taking actions (which only means the things found under Actions in Combat).You're effectively house-ruling stuff (even if you didn't mean to) to be even more in favor of your player characters than it is by RAW, and then insisting the RAW are causing you problems.
That's not how 5th edition plays at my table - what creatures are you seeing be "one shot" and by what characters?
Meanwhile at my table a party of a dwarven assassin, elf druid, human necromancer, medusa (yes, with all the traits found in the Monster Manual) fighter, and human transmuter that are all packing a handful of potent magical items (example: wand of paralysis, and some +2 weapons) and are 11th level (except the medusa, who only has 7 levels of fighter blended with her medusa traits) get a solid feeling of challenge from facing off against 5 or so trolls (or other CR 5 monsters).we have been derailed.
Back to the topic, with Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes announced, I'm guessing the next book will be an adventure (though Mike Mearls did say in a recent video that he doesn't want to become predictable with a release schedule).
I think something into the outer planes would be really awesome. I don't know much about them, and I think some adventures outside of the material plane (at least partly) would be super intriguing.
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!
Also, if we are sticking with Abeir-Toril of Forgotten Realms, I would like to go to Zakhara of the Al-Qadim campaign setting, or exploring some of Kara-Tur, Maztica or any number of the currently unexplored lands of Toril: Osse, Laerako, Aurune, Anchorome, Katashaka, Ama Basin, The Shining South, The Land of Flying Monkeys, Tabaxiland, Umbara, Wa, Kosakura, Taan and so on. We have been to the Sword Coast of Faerun. Tomb of Annihilation took us to Chult of Southwestern Faerun. Why not see the rest of the world.
Currently DM : The Sunless Citadel with bloodthirsty players.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
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More fey and celestial critters would be cool, though I really don't care about the feywilds or archfey at all.
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!