Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
As a DM I do tend to fudge what constitutes a "beast" for spells like speak with animals -- if the ranger wants to talk to a tressym, sure, go for it -- and I'll use the same logic on dominate beast when they get there, but dragons are very much Their Own Thing
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Or as someone else pointed out in another thread today, be a 5th level Bard with max CHR and expertise in persuasion and some DMs will let you de facto dominate anyone and anything who will listen to you.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I just had my sister in law throw a fit last night over this spell description while trying to use it on a young white dragon. After checking, I told her if it could work, why would there be a dominate monster spell? Then I googled and found this thread. And finally ruled that she couldn’t use that spell, but I was going to let her choose another action. But then she stomped off and didn’t come back to the table for 10 minutes. LOL. Weird night!
Probably shouldn't be publicly talking about her reactions - if she ever reads it, you'll be treated to another example.
Anyways, no, it doesn't work with dragons, alongside other spells and class abilities. Kinda sucks not being able to pull a Maleficent and turn into a dragon as a Druid, but oh well. A lot of terminology in 5e is idiosyncratic.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Or as someone else pointed out in another thread today, be a 5th level Bard with max CHR and expertise in persuasion and some DMs will let you de facto dominate anyone and anything who will listen to you.
I've never actually encountered a DM that would let things like this slide and lets people treat persuasion like mind control.
Kinda sucks not being able to pull a Maleficent and turn into a dragon as a Druid, but oh well.
Well there's the Draconic Transformation spell from Fizban's and good old True Polymorph but yeah can't wild shape into one. Though that could make for a fun dragon flavored druid subclass, giving them the ability to either wildshape into dragons or give them a special dragon transformation that can scale up with level if that's easier to balance, using whildshape charges to do so.
Or as someone else pointed out in another thread today, be a 5th level Bard with max CHR and expertise in persuasion and some DMs will let you de facto dominate anyone and anything who will listen to you.
I've never actually encountered a DM that would let things like this slide and lets people treat persuasion like mind control.
Online forums and social media like the D&D subreddits are full of people presenting hypotheticals and hyperbole as actual, common things that happen in D&D. Many have never even played or only played once several years ago, but they can tell you all about what today's DMs are like. The way social media works, posting a take that is blatantly wrong engages the most users as they chime in to refute/explain/insult/etc, so the algorithms push those threads to the top.
I don't doubt there are a few DMs that would rule a critical persuasion check as "the target will do whatever you want" as per the Rule of Cool, but yes after more than a little experience most people realize that the rules exist to facilitate fun, not kill it.
Dragons are not beasts. Argument should have gone as far as reading the spell description and then looking up dragons in the MM.
If you look at all the beasts in the source books they are pretty much things you would find in our world of mundania. Granted some of them are giant size etc. but still what we have here.
Or as someone else pointed out in another thread today, be a 5th level Bard with max CHR and expertise in persuasion and some DMs will let you de facto dominate anyone and anything who will listen to you.
I've never actually encountered a DM that would let things like this slide and lets people treat persuasion like mind control.
Online forums and social media like the D&D subreddits are full of people presenting hypotheticals and hyperbole as actual, common things that happen in D&D. Many have never even played or only played once several years ago, but they can tell you all about what today's DMs are like. The way social media works, posting a take that is blatantly wrong engages the most users as they chime in to refute/explain/insult/etc, so the algorithms push those threads to the top.
I don't doubt there are a few DMs that would rule a critical persuasion check as "the target will do whatever you want" as per the Rule of Cool, but yes after more than a little experience most people realize that the rules exist to facilitate fun, not kill it.
A high enough persuasion check basically was permanent, non-magical mind control under 3rd Edition rules. It was incredibly broken, especially since the rules didn't take how easy it was to pump your charisma skills up to obscene heights in that edition: the rules were meant for Epic Level play but an optimized bard could reliably make the DC required by 10th-11th level. Quite a few GMs banned it as a result.
A shocking number of people still think of the game based on what was part of the rules 20 years ago and don't realize that 5E is a different version of the game with different rules.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Dragons are not beasts. Argument should have gone as far as reading the spell description and then looking up dragons in the MM.
If you look at all the beasts in the source books they are pretty much things you would find in our world of mundania. Granted some of them are giant size etc. but still what we have here.
Probably shouldn't be publicly talking about her reactions - if she ever reads it, you'll be treated to another example.
Anyways, no, it doesn't work with dragons, alongside other spells and class abilities. Kinda sucks not being able to pull a Maleficent and turn into a dragon as a Druid, but oh well. A lot of terminology in 5e is idiosyncratic.
Shapechange is on the druid list. Just can't do it with a class feature.
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We are arguing amongst ourselves in our group and we have no answer.
No.
It only works on Beasts. Dragons are not beasts. They're Dragons.
Check Part 4 of the Basic Rules about Creature Types: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/monsters#Type
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
For visual reference.. See the circles.
A cat, a beast.
An adult blue dragon, a dragon.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
As a DM I do tend to fudge what constitutes a "beast" for spells like speak with animals -- if the ranger wants to talk to a tressym, sure, go for it -- and I'll use the same logic on dominate beast when they get there, but dragons are very much Their Own Thing
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yeah, you'd need the 8th-level spell Dominate Monster to have that effect on dragons.
Or as someone else pointed out in another thread today, be a 5th level Bard with max CHR and expertise in persuasion and some DMs will let you de facto dominate anyone and anything who will listen to you.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Thank you everyone in confirming my belief!
I just had my sister in law throw a fit last night over this spell description while trying to use it on a young white dragon. After checking, I told her if it could work, why would there be a dominate monster spell? Then I googled and found this thread. And finally ruled that she couldn’t use that spell, but I was going to let her choose another action. But then she stomped off and didn’t come back to the table for 10 minutes. LOL. Weird night!
Probably shouldn't be publicly talking about her reactions - if she ever reads it, you'll be treated to another example.
Anyways, no, it doesn't work with dragons, alongside other spells and class abilities. Kinda sucks not being able to pull a Maleficent and turn into a dragon as a Druid, but oh well. A lot of terminology in 5e is idiosyncratic.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I've never actually encountered a DM that would let things like this slide and lets people treat persuasion like mind control.
Well there's the Draconic Transformation spell from Fizban's and good old True Polymorph but yeah can't wild shape into one. Though that could make for a fun dragon flavored druid subclass, giving them the ability to either wildshape into dragons or give them a special dragon transformation that can scale up with level if that's easier to balance, using whildshape charges to do so.
Online forums and social media like the D&D subreddits are full of people presenting hypotheticals and hyperbole as actual, common things that happen in D&D. Many have never even played or only played once several years ago, but they can tell you all about what today's DMs are like. The way social media works, posting a take that is blatantly wrong engages the most users as they chime in to refute/explain/insult/etc, so the algorithms push those threads to the top.
I don't doubt there are a few DMs that would rule a critical persuasion check as "the target will do whatever you want" as per the Rule of Cool, but yes after more than a little experience most people realize that the rules exist to facilitate fun, not kill it.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Dragons are not beasts. Argument should have gone as far as reading the spell description and then looking up dragons in the MM.
If you look at all the beasts in the source books they are pretty much things you would find in our world of mundania. Granted some of them are giant size etc. but still what we have here.
Horses, dogs, politicians, centipedes
A high enough persuasion check basically was permanent, non-magical mind control under 3rd Edition rules. It was incredibly broken, especially since the rules didn't take how easy it was to pump your charisma skills up to obscene heights in that edition: the rules were meant for Epic Level play but an optimized bard could reliably make the DC required by 10th-11th level. Quite a few GMs banned it as a result.
A shocking number of people still think of the game based on what was part of the rules 20 years ago and don't realize that 5E is a different version of the game with different rules.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I’ll thank you to not insult beasts like that.
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Shapechange is on the druid list. Just can't do it with a class feature.