I don’t think tieflings or dragonborn should be PHB races. There, I said it.
Elaborate? Why get rid of tieflings and dragonborn? They were popular enough in older editions to be included in base 5e, and both have only risen in popularity since.
Not snarking the opinion, simply requesting more explanation as to why two of the game's more popular playable species shouldn't be?
I don’t think tieflings or dragonborn should be PHB races. There, I said it.
Elaborate? Why get rid of tieflings and dragonborn? They were popular enough in older editions to be included in base 5e, and both have only risen in popularity since.
Not snarking the opinion, simply requesting more explanation as to why two of the game's more popular playable species shouldn't be?
Because everything in the PHB has to be available in every setting that they publish and I don’t think those two races fit every setting particularly well. I would rather see orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears in as PHB races since they do fit every setting. I like tieflings and dragonborn just fine, but I would rather see those in a supplement book as opposed to orcs and goblinoids.
I don’t think tieflings or dragonborn should be PHB races. There, I said it.
Elaborate? Why get rid of tieflings and dragonborn? They were popular enough in older editions to be included in base 5e, and both have only risen in popularity since.
Not snarking the opinion, simply requesting more explanation as to why two of the game's more popular playable species shouldn't be?
Because everything in the PHB has to be available in every setting that they publish and I don’t think those two races fit every setting particularly well. I would rather see orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears in as PHB races since they do fit every setting. I like tieflings and dragonborn just fine, but I would rather see those in a supplement book as opposed to orcs and goblinoids.
This isn't a Zero-Sum Game. They could add more races to the PHB if they want to. (I fully expect them to replace Half-Orcs with Orcs in the next PHB, actually.) And I agree that the Goblinoids should be in the PHB. I just don't see why you'd have to drop 2 of the most popular races in the game in order to fit more in. Especially if they shorten the lore sections for the main races, like they did for the races in Monsters of the Multiverse.
Also, what part of Tieflings and Dragonborn don't fit most settings? Most settings have devils (or other fiends), so most settings can have Tieflings. Most settings have Dragons, so Dragonborn can fit into any setting. I actually think they fit most D&D settings better than Halflings, most Elf subraces, and Gnomes (and I say that as someone that likes Gnomes).
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I don’t think tieflings or dragonborn should be PHB races. There, I said it.
Elaborate? Why get rid of tieflings and dragonborn? They were popular enough in older editions to be included in base 5e, and both have only risen in popularity since.
Not snarking the opinion, simply requesting more explanation as to why two of the game's more popular playable species shouldn't be?
Because everything in the PHB has to be available in every setting that they publish and I don’t think those two races fit every setting particularly well. I would rather see orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears in as PHB races since they do fit every setting. I like tieflings and dragonborn just fine, but I would rather see those in a supplement book as opposed to orcs and goblinoids.
You coming for my tieflings!?!? That is a spicy opinion!
I hope they don’t drop half orcs, I think they’re an important counterpoint to half elves. In fact, I wish there were more official hybrids like those.
Take Dark Sun for example. Dragonborn and tieflings don’t fit Athas at all.
I don’t think tieflings or dragonborn should be PHB races. There, I said it.
Elaborate? Why get rid of tieflings and dragonborn? They were popular enough in older editions to be included in base 5e, and both have only risen in popularity since.
Not snarking the opinion, simply requesting more explanation as to why two of the game's more popular playable species shouldn't be?
Because everything in the PHB has to be available in every setting that they publish and I don’t think those two races fit every setting particularly well. I would rather see orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears in as PHB races since they do fit every setting. I like tieflings and dragonborn just fine, but I would rather see those in a supplement book as opposed to orcs and goblinoids.
You coming for my tieflings!?!? That is a spicy opinion!
No no, I like tieflings just fine, I just don’t think they should be a core race is all.
I don’t think tieflings or dragonborn should be PHB races. There, I said it.
Elaborate? Why get rid of tieflings and dragonborn? They were popular enough in older editions to be included in base 5e, and both have only risen in popularity since.
Not snarking the opinion, simply requesting more explanation as to why two of the game's more popular playable species shouldn't be?
Because everything in the PHB has to be available in every setting that they publish and I don’t think those two races fit every setting particularly well. I would rather see orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears in as PHB races since they do fit every setting. I like tieflings and dragonborn just fine, but I would rather see those in a supplement book as opposed to orcs and goblinoids.
You coming for my tieflings!?!? That is a spicy opinion!
No no, I like tieflings just fine, I just don’t think they should be a core race is all.
I kid. I have heard them referred to as ‘exotic races’ before, so I think I see what you mean. But I also see how that’s spicy!
Fresh hot take: D&D would be a better game with a point buy system instead of a "race" system. Assemble your character from different traits as you deem fit within the chargen budget of your game. Different species in the books are simply prebuilt packages of traits that simulate existing Tolkienite species.
I have. There's a reason I brought up Savage Worlds, instead. GURPS has the best character generation of any TTRPG I've ever dabbled in, by several country miles. I adore building characters in GURPS. Character building in GURPS is its own delightful game. Playing GURPS is not as great. The one-second turn with enormously limited action economy is annoying and bogs down adventure. GURPS is great fun right up until you get into initiative order.
Tabletop RPGs are games about making choices, then seeing the consequences of those choices. D&D 5e's fiercely limited chargen and on-rails class level system removes almost all forms of 'making choices' from character progression. Past third level, no non-warlock character in D&D 5e ever makes a meaningful choice in their progression ever again. The pendulum swung too hard from 4e, and they need to swing back some.
I hope they don’t drop half orcs, I think they’re an important counterpoint to half elves. In fact, I wish there were more official hybrids like those.
Take Dark Sun for example. Dragonborn and tieflings don’t fit Athas at all.
I mean, Dark Sun is just a single example. And it's not even in 5e yet. Tieflings and Dragonborn fit the Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Exandria, Strixhaven, and Ravenloft. Not to mention the "transitive" settings, like Planescape and Spelljammer. And though Dragonborn probably don't fit Greyhawk (but might get retconned to fit it), Tieflings certainly do. And Dragonborn could exist in Dragonlance pretty easily. The only ones I can think of besides Dark Sun that they don't fit in are Theros and Ravnica, which makes sense because they're M:tG settings (Strixhaven is different, because it was specifically designed to work for both M:tG and D&D).
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The problem I am trying to address is that people don't take race seriously, from a roleplaying perspective and the conclusion I've drawn is that if people are going to play characters that are ostenibly different, then eliminating the problem point is better than giving players bonuses for something they aren't doing anything to earn. So if we do eliminate the ability to play other races for mechanical reasons-- eliminate the motivation to choose race/class combinations for mechanical reasons-- then the only motivation that remains is because a player wishes to roleplay a certain race. Therefore, it would reduce the number of people frivilously playing races.
And the problem that most of the replies you've seen so far are pointing out is you're turning a personal observation of your own tables into a wide sweeping, game changing, over-arching alteration of the entire idea of a D&D character. It seems the people disagreeing with you haven't encountered the problem that you have.
While I completely understand the possibility that you've never seen character race/species taken seriously at your tables, I find it highly improbable. But, I say that as someone who has one table that has existed for the better part of 30 years with the same player group. Even at that one table, play has drastically changed over that time. For some of the players it's how much they RP, for some it's HOW they RP (and often those changes happen because someone at the table commented on something and it led that player down a new path). And that's one group, one table. Out of literally 100's I've played with over the last 30+ years.
I'd offer the suggestion that maybe you need to find new tables, with different players, but I'm not sure that's what you want given the solution you propose.
The problem I am trying to address is that people don't take race seriously, from a roleplaying perspective and the conclusion I've drawn is that if people are going to play characters that are ostenibly different, then eliminating the problem point is better than giving players bonuses for something they aren't doing anything to earn. So if we do eliminate the ability to play other races for mechanical reasons-- eliminate the motivation to choose race/class combinations for mechanical reasons-- then the only motivation that remains is because a player wishes to roleplay a certain race. Therefore, it would reduce the number of people frivilously playing races.
And the problem that most of the replies you've seen so far are pointing out is you're turning a personal observation of your own tables into a wide sweeping, game changing, over-arching alteration of the entire idea of a D&D character. It seems the people disagreeing with you haven't encountered the problem that you have.
While I completely understand the possibility that you've never seen character race/species taken seriously at your tables, I find it highly improbable. But, I say that as someone who has one table that has existed for the better part of 30 years with the same player group. Even at that one table, play has drastically changed over that time. For some of the players it's how much they RP, for some it's HOW they RP (and often those changes happen because someone at the table commented on something and it led that player down a new path). And that's one group, one table. Out of literally 100's I've played with over the last 30+ years.
I'd offer the suggestion that maybe you need to find new tables, with different players, but I'm not sure that's what you want given the solution you propose.
Or maybe they have encountered the problem and yet don't perceive it as such because they themselves haven't taken the time to actually consider how alien a lot of these species would be to us. Like to the degree. Hell, probably a lot of these species don't even experience reality in the same way we do. If you have a max lifespan of 30 years, then your brain probably experience reality in a way that seems like slow motion to humans. Likewise, elves, from a biological perspective, probably see human being behaving like overly destructive hummingbirds. That's just one example.
Anyone is limited by the breadth of their observations. Even if I ask other people, they're limited by their observations. Because you disagree with mine based on your observations, why are mine then invalid? Because you've played 100's of tables? I don't accept the argument because in the criticism of my own ideas, is tacitly a criticism of your own criticism.
People can disagree with me all they want. The act of disagreeing doesn't challenge the validity of my claim. Just because a problem is not perceived, doesn't mean a problem does not exist. Radiation requires special tools to detect, yet you can still be poisoned by it.
I don’t think tieflings or dragonborn should be PHB races. There, I said it.
Elaborate? Why get rid of tieflings and dragonborn? They were popular enough in older editions to be included in base 5e, and both have only risen in popularity since.
Not snarking the opinion, simply requesting more explanation as to why two of the game's more popular playable species shouldn't be?
Because everything in the PHB has to be available in every setting that they publish and I don’t think those two races fit every setting particularly well. I would rather see orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears in as PHB races since they do fit every setting. I like tieflings and dragonborn just fine, but I would rather see those in a supplement book as opposed to orcs and goblinoids.
Theros doesn't have Elves or really any PHB races besides Humans, so it's not true that every PHB race must be included in every published official setting.
I don’t think tieflings or dragonborn should be PHB races. There, I said it.
Elaborate? Why get rid of tieflings and dragonborn? They were popular enough in older editions to be included in base 5e, and both have only risen in popularity since.
Not snarking the opinion, simply requesting more explanation as to why two of the game's more popular playable species shouldn't be?
Because everything in the PHB has to be available in every setting that they publish and I don’t think those two races fit every setting particularly well. I would rather see orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears in as PHB races since they do fit every setting. I like tieflings and dragonborn just fine, but I would rather see those in a supplement book as opposed to orcs and goblinoids.
Theros doesn't have Elves or really any PHB races besides Humans, so it's not true that every PHB race must be included in every published official setting.
Indeed, Ravnica and Theros both lack half-orcs and half-elves, tieflings and dragonborn, and dwarves. Strixhaven doesn't have dragonborn, tieflings, or half-anythings.
For official 5e, we have Faerun, Eberron, and Wildemount, and depending on your definitions, Greyhawk and Ravenloft, which are all "kitchen sink" settings, and then there's the 3 Magic settings, which aren't. I don't personally feel that Greyhawk or Ravenloft function as full settings given only their 5e material, but then again neither does Strixhaven, so I guess it's still true that the majority are kitchen sink settings, whichever way you slice it. That might change when we get Dragonlance and/or Spelljammer, but I doubt it. Actually, the way I think I understand it, Spelljammer is a kitchen sink and Dragonlance isn't, so the disparity remains.
It's a 'Spicy Opinions' thread, Potato. Not a 'Post Milquetoast Stuff Everybody Agrees With' thread, no matter how much the mod team wishes every thread was that thread
Okay, I’m wrong for my spicy opinion. Sorry everybody.
Potato, I was just satirically overreacting to someone name-dropping my favorite race in this thread. Your opinion wouldn’t even impact tieflings if it were put into practice by WotC. It was not meant to put you on your back foot and I apologize if you felt it did.
Despite what your school teachers might have said (I know mine did), it is possible to have a wrong opinion. An opinion founded on incorrect facts is a wrong opinion. It's not like it's shameful, though. I do it several times a day, I'm sure, though I usually never find out.
So if I'm understanding you correctly, race is not a major factor in how a character is played? And so your solution to this is to effectively eliminate the race system (which in no way solves the problem you're trying to address) instead of making it more dynamic?? If you get rid of racial abilities/bonuses, you still have the issue you mention of two different Fighters playing the same way.
"Pick a race that gives ability points that favor the class you want to play" does not cause people to play their race differently. It just means you have a weird party full of people hunting the best bonuses. The way to get people to to play their race differently is to make sure people don't play nonhumans unless they actually want to, and the way to do that is to make it completely cosmetic.
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I don’t think tieflings or dragonborn should be PHB races. There, I said it.
Elaborate? Why get rid of tieflings and dragonborn? They were popular enough in older editions to be included in base 5e, and both have only risen in popularity since.
Not snarking the opinion, simply requesting more explanation as to why two of the game's more popular playable species shouldn't be?
Please do not contact or message me.
Because everything in the PHB has to be available in every setting that they publish and I don’t think those two races fit every setting particularly well. I would rather see orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears in as PHB races since they do fit every setting. I like tieflings and dragonborn just fine, but I would rather see those in a supplement book as opposed to orcs and goblinoids.
This isn't a Zero-Sum Game. They could add more races to the PHB if they want to. (I fully expect them to replace Half-Orcs with Orcs in the next PHB, actually.) And I agree that the Goblinoids should be in the PHB. I just don't see why you'd have to drop 2 of the most popular races in the game in order to fit more in. Especially if they shorten the lore sections for the main races, like they did for the races in Monsters of the Multiverse.
Also, what part of Tieflings and Dragonborn don't fit most settings? Most settings have devils (or other fiends), so most settings can have Tieflings. Most settings have Dragons, so Dragonborn can fit into any setting. I actually think they fit most D&D settings better than Halflings, most Elf subraces, and Gnomes (and I say that as someone that likes Gnomes).
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You coming for my tieflings!?!? That is a spicy opinion!
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I hope they don’t drop half orcs, I think they’re an important counterpoint to half elves. In fact, I wish there were more official hybrids like those.
Take Dark Sun for example. Dragonborn and tieflings don’t fit Athas at all.
No no, I like tieflings just fine, I just don’t think they should be a core race is all.
I kid. I have heard them referred to as ‘exotic races’ before, so I think I see what you mean. But I also see how that’s spicy!
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At that point you might as well play GURPS.
I have. There's a reason I brought up Savage Worlds, instead. GURPS has the best character generation of any TTRPG I've ever dabbled in, by several country miles. I adore building characters in GURPS. Character building in GURPS is its own delightful game. Playing GURPS is not as great. The one-second turn with enormously limited action economy is annoying and bogs down adventure. GURPS is great fun right up until you get into initiative order.
Tabletop RPGs are games about making choices, then seeing the consequences of those choices. D&D 5e's fiercely limited chargen and on-rails class level system removes almost all forms of 'making choices' from character progression. Past third level, no non-warlock character in D&D 5e ever makes a meaningful choice in their progression ever again. The pendulum swung too hard from 4e, and they need to swing back some.
Please do not contact or message me.
I mean, Dark Sun is just a single example. And it's not even in 5e yet. Tieflings and Dragonborn fit the Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Exandria, Strixhaven, and Ravenloft. Not to mention the "transitive" settings, like Planescape and Spelljammer. And though Dragonborn probably don't fit Greyhawk (but might get retconned to fit it), Tieflings certainly do. And Dragonborn could exist in Dragonlance pretty easily. The only ones I can think of besides Dark Sun that they don't fit in are Theros and Ravnica, which makes sense because they're M:tG settings (Strixhaven is different, because it was specifically designed to work for both M:tG and D&D).
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And the problem that most of the replies you've seen so far are pointing out is you're turning a personal observation of your own tables into a wide sweeping, game changing, over-arching alteration of the entire idea of a D&D character. It seems the people disagreeing with you haven't encountered the problem that you have.
While I completely understand the possibility that you've never seen character race/species taken seriously at your tables, I find it highly improbable. But, I say that as someone who has one table that has existed for the better part of 30 years with the same player group. Even at that one table, play has drastically changed over that time. For some of the players it's how much they RP, for some it's HOW they RP (and often those changes happen because someone at the table commented on something and it led that player down a new path). And that's one group, one table. Out of literally 100's I've played with over the last 30+ years.
I'd offer the suggestion that maybe you need to find new tables, with different players, but I'm not sure that's what you want given the solution you propose.
Or maybe they have encountered the problem and yet don't perceive it as such because they themselves haven't taken the time to actually consider how alien a lot of these species would be to us. Like to the degree. Hell, probably a lot of these species don't even experience reality in the same way we do. If you have a max lifespan of 30 years, then your brain probably experience reality in a way that seems like slow motion to humans. Likewise, elves, from a biological perspective, probably see human being behaving like overly destructive hummingbirds. That's just one example.
Anyone is limited by the breadth of their observations. Even if I ask other people, they're limited by their observations. Because you disagree with mine based on your observations, why are mine then invalid? Because you've played 100's of tables? I don't accept the argument because in the criticism of my own ideas, is tacitly a criticism of your own criticism.
People can disagree with me all they want. The act of disagreeing doesn't challenge the validity of my claim. Just because a problem is not perceived, doesn't mean a problem does not exist. Radiation requires special tools to detect, yet you can still be poisoned by it.
Theros doesn't have Elves or really any PHB races besides Humans, so it's not true that every PHB race must be included in every published official setting.
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Indeed, Ravnica and Theros both lack half-orcs and half-elves, tieflings and dragonborn, and dwarves. Strixhaven doesn't have dragonborn, tieflings, or half-anythings.
For official 5e, we have Faerun, Eberron, and Wildemount, and depending on your definitions, Greyhawk and Ravenloft, which are all "kitchen sink" settings, and then there's the 3 Magic settings, which aren't. I don't personally feel that Greyhawk or Ravenloft function as full settings given only their 5e material, but then again neither does Strixhaven, so I guess it's still true that the majority are kitchen sink settings, whichever way you slice it. That might change when we get Dragonlance and/or Spelljammer, but I doubt it. Actually, the way I think I understand it, Spelljammer is a kitchen sink and Dragonlance isn't, so the disparity remains.
Okay, I’m wrong for my spicy opinion. Sorry everybody.
It's a 'Spicy Opinions' thread, Potato. Not a 'Post Milquetoast Stuff Everybody Agrees With' thread, no matter how much the mod team wishes every thread was that thread
Please do not contact or message me.
Potato, I was just satirically overreacting to someone name-dropping my favorite race in this thread. Your opinion wouldn’t even impact tieflings if it were put into practice by WotC. It was not meant to put you on your back foot and I apologize if you felt it did.
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Despite what your school teachers might have said (I know mine did), it is possible to have a wrong opinion. An opinion founded on incorrect facts is a wrong opinion. It's not like it's shameful, though. I do it several times a day, I'm sure, though I usually never find out.
"Pick a race that gives ability points that favor the class you want to play" does not cause people to play their race differently. It just means you have a weird party full of people hunting the best bonuses. The way to get people to to play their race differently is to make sure people don't play nonhumans unless they actually want to, and the way to do that is to make it completely cosmetic.