Can’t say that I entirely agree that it is entitled behavior to expect well-fitting digital and physical content. I would expect a well-designed website to lean on different features to make a competitive product in the market, rather than relying on a strategy of leveraging baked-in dependencies. Anything else speaks to me of bad design and immature products.
Can’t say that I entirely agree that it is entitled behavior to expect well-fitting digital and physical content. I would expect a well-designed website to lean on different features to make a competitive product in the market, rather than relying on a strategy of leveraging baked-in dependencies. Anything else speaks to me of bad design and immature products.
This website and VTT's are optional extras - that's the point I'm trying to make. When you buy a car, you don't expect the more powerful engine and lightweight panelling just because the car is built to take it - those are optional extras that cost more.
The books were printed to be books, for pencil and paper tabletop roleplaying games (tables as in wooden furniture items with flat surfaces on which to move real models on real maps and roll real dice with real people). They were not printed to be online tools with searchable features, filters, links, auto-rolling, hitpoint tracking, realtime lighting, and so on.
If I buy a book on how to use Solidworks, I do not expect Solidworks for free, even if this book was made to work with it. Even if it's written by the same company.
Yes, there is capitalism in there, but you have to appreciate that the books were written as books, and then retconned into the Dndbeyond format through hard work and ongoing support. If you expect them to just give that away, then they could simply stop making it instead.
I'll be frank here. Dungeons and Dragons is a tabletop pencil-and-paper roleplaying game. That's what you bought when you bought the book.
If you want more, you have to buy more. Expecting it because you bought the proper way to play it is textbook entitled behaviour.
I like that thinking.
But I do like the idea of a digital mapping system. And yes WoTC can afford to either buy one or make one if they wanted.
And I do like the website here for its available content. I just wish it was cheaper for the digital copies. WoTC makes its highest percent of profit off of this site. Physical books cost far more than internet data.
I got tired of requiring multiple garages for my old edition books ages ago. Digital is the way to go. I’m still worried WotC may destroy DDB with their pricing.
You can buy the 5E PHB from eBay for $10 to $15 on auction. Cut open the glue binding (yeah these books are not made to last), take the pages out and put them in a top loader scanner with OCR and scan them in. Congrats you got yourself a digital copy for $10 searchable PHB and didn't pay WotC or Roll 20 a dime.
Seriously thinking of just moving to Pathfinder 2e. There are things I'd miss, but this "buy it on dndbeyond, buy it on roll20, and (because each platform is sort of mini-monopoly), there is no buying used or at huge discounts" is just wearing me out.
People have mentioned it, but let me say it explicitly here - the Chrome extension Beyond20 allows you to use your DDB content on roll20. It's all you need to make it work and it's free. Monsters, items, character sheets, whatever, you click on DDB and it pops up in roll20. I'd use it even if I had roll20 content because I prefer the DDB character sheet.
As for getting both physical and digital content with one purchase, I think the next edition will work that way. WotC bought DDB so that they could integrate everything into a web-based platform, but they can't change their whole business model overnight. The changeover next year seems like a realistic timeframe to nail down exactly how they want to distribute content. I'm expecting digital access as a small add-on to a physical book purchase and a cheaper digital-only option. But the logistics of that take time to work out.
To be honest, the fact that any publisher charges the same for a digital copy as a physical one is tantamount to robbery. The profit margins on digital material is wildly greater than a physical book (no warehouse storage, no printing costs, no shipping it to suppliers, etc). Digital books ought to be half the price (at least) of physical media.
It's pretty easy to build a character on paper without using the character builder. Just print out the sheet and fill it in, problem solved.
You're not wrong, people played TTRPG for decade prior to online or computer aided character builders, and yet people do want character builders that do a lot of the work (and to some degree double check their math and build calculations) for them, for this and for other games.
And let's remember this is a thread started by a poster who thinks the possession or maybe only purchase of the hard copy book, entitles them access to that tool. I'm pretty sure they're aware the paper form to fill in exists. Of course, there are probably not an insignificant number of players who find DDB essential to their game playing because they don't want to fill out paper forms.
It's pretty easy to build a character on paper without using the character builder. Just print out the sheet and fill it in, problem solved.
You're not wrong, people played TTRPG for decade prior to online or computer aided character builders, and yet people do want character builders that do a lot of the work (and to some degree double check their math and build calculations) for them, for this and for other games.
And let's remember this is a thread started by a poster who thinks the possession or maybe only purchase of the hard copy book, entitles them access to that tool. I'm pretty sure they're aware the paper form to fill in exists. Of course, there are probably not an insignificant number of players who find DDB essential to their game playing because they don't want to fill out paper forms.
DDB is not essential, but I do enjoy the convenience it provides, especially when it comes to new players who are the largest part of my current gaming tables.
Maybe it is more essential than I give credit.
Oh, I don't believe it's essential either. But "there are probably not an insignificant number of players" who do. One can say DDB is not essential to D&D and some D&D players find DDB essential a consistent statement.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Seriously thinking of just moving to Pathfinder 2e. There are things I'd miss, but this "buy it on dndbeyond, buy it on roll20, and (because each platform is sort of mini-monopoly), there is no buying used or at huge discounts" is just wearing me out.
I don't mind paying once at full price, but once is it. The dndbeyond license needs to be designed so that other systems can use that content.
I don't expect Wizards to do this. Wizards showed earlier this year how rapacious they are. I'm expecting I'll need to just abandon the platform, even though I like the ddbeyond character sheet implementation. (Mostly. It has some bugs, but they are comparatively small.) And I'm definitely not interested in getting trapping in a WotC walled garden...
Really the only thing you have to buy from PF2 is the Adventure Paths or the Lost Omens if you want a setting. The rules are free and legal in the Archives of Nethys.
And that of buying the same content several times is the pain of our days. For example, I play a lot online, so I have to buy things twice.
The solution could be the new WotC VTT, if it really is possible to transfer the content purchased on DnDBeyond at no cost. The problem is that what I've seen of the VTT I don't like very much, and I prefer the 2D style of other platforms. But that is a matter of taste.
To be honest, the fact that any publisher charges the same for a digital copy as a physical one is tantamount to robbery. The profit margins on digital material is wildly greater than a physical book (no warehouse storage, no printing costs, no shipping it to suppliers, etc). Digital books ought to be half the price (at least) of physical media.
I can understand someone not wanting to buy the physical book and it on D&D Beyond as well, but honestly, the above quote is laughably absurd! Either you have no idea what D&D Beyond actually offers or you have no idea what effort goes into programming and data entry for a site like this (or both)!
To be honest, the fact that any publisher charges the same for a digital copy as a physical one is tantamount to robbery. The profit margins on digital material is wildly greater than a physical book (no warehouse storage, no printing costs, no shipping it to suppliers, etc). Digital books ought to be half the price (at least) of physical media.
I can understand someone not wanting to buy the physical book and it on D&D Beyond as well, but honestly, the above quote is laughably absurd! Either you have no idea what D&D Beyond actually offers or you have no idea what effort goes into programming and data entry for a site like this (or both)!
"Robbery" LOL!!
Also, the digital content on DDB is half the price of the dead tree format.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Also, the digital content on DDB is half the price of the dead tree format.
Half the MSRP of the in print version, "but Amazon" is most folks' index for prices. Not saying that validates the complaint, but I can see where the "they're the same price" argument comes from.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
If someone's complaining about the price of a digital book because they were able to find a copy of the dead tree version for under MSRP online, I'd say that falls heavily under first world problems.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
If someone's complaining about the price of a digital book because they were able to find a copy of the dead tree version for under MSRP online, I'd say that falls heavily under first world problems.
That's another way of saying "That doesn't validate the complaint; but I can see where the "they're the same price" argument comes from." There's not a lot of awareness, maybe even consciousness, in contemporary so-called post industrial consumption, but that's sort of going meta to the topic.
I imagine what DDB entitlements may accompany a physical purchase may change in post refreshed/revised core books. I don't see DDB or the VTT capstone on top of DDB being essential to future play (despite fears expressed on a number of channels including this forum), but facilitating greater integration is probably a goal of the various roll outs we'll be seeing post 2024. I was frankly surprised to see the bundled roll out for 5e books we've seen to date, and I imagine those will be further refined.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I think basically any complaint about the price of a hobby falls under First World Problems.
I mean, yes, but there are some legitimate complaints about corporate greed making things too expensive, like online games that push microtransactions toward kids and people with ADHD- obviously not something happening here but just using it as an example.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
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Can’t say that I entirely agree that it is entitled behavior to expect well-fitting digital and physical content. I would expect a well-designed website to lean on different features to make a competitive product in the market, rather than relying on a strategy of leveraging baked-in dependencies. Anything else speaks to me of bad design and immature products.
Netherlands, GMT +1 // “Absorb what is useful, discard what is not, add what is uniquely your own.” — Bruce Lee
This website and VTT's are optional extras - that's the point I'm trying to make. When you buy a car, you don't expect the more powerful engine and lightweight panelling just because the car is built to take it - those are optional extras that cost more.
The books were printed to be books, for pencil and paper tabletop roleplaying games (tables as in wooden furniture items with flat surfaces on which to move real models on real maps and roll real dice with real people). They were not printed to be online tools with searchable features, filters, links, auto-rolling, hitpoint tracking, realtime lighting, and so on.
If I buy a book on how to use Solidworks, I do not expect Solidworks for free, even if this book was made to work with it. Even if it's written by the same company.
Yes, there is capitalism in there, but you have to appreciate that the books were written as books, and then retconned into the Dndbeyond format through hard work and ongoing support. If you expect them to just give that away, then they could simply stop making it instead.
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
I struggle to imagine why you'd buy books through both DDB and roll20 when Beyond20 exists.
As for physical + DDB, now that they own DDB we're getting bundles that address this very issue. They can't go back in time to before the purchase.
I like that thinking.
But I do like the idea of a digital mapping system. And yes WoTC can afford to either buy one or make one if they wanted.
And I do like the website here for its available content. I just wish it was cheaper for the digital copies. WoTC makes its highest percent of profit off of this site. Physical books cost far more than internet data.
I got tired of requiring multiple garages for my old edition books ages ago. Digital is the way to go. I’m still worried WotC may destroy DDB with their pricing.
Think of it as upgrading a phone that works perfectly fine
You can buy the 5E PHB from eBay for $10 to $15 on auction. Cut open the glue binding (yeah these books are not made to last), take the pages out and put them in a top loader scanner with OCR and scan them in. Congrats you got yourself a digital copy for $10 searchable PHB and didn't pay WotC or Roll 20 a dime.
People have mentioned it, but let me say it explicitly here - the Chrome extension Beyond20 allows you to use your DDB content on roll20. It's all you need to make it work and it's free. Monsters, items, character sheets, whatever, you click on DDB and it pops up in roll20. I'd use it even if I had roll20 content because I prefer the DDB character sheet.
As for getting both physical and digital content with one purchase, I think the next edition will work that way. WotC bought DDB so that they could integrate everything into a web-based platform, but they can't change their whole business model overnight. The changeover next year seems like a realistic timeframe to nail down exactly how they want to distribute content. I'm expecting digital access as a small add-on to a physical book purchase and a cheaper digital-only option. But the logistics of that take time to work out.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
It's pretty easy to build a character on paper without using the character builder. Just print out the sheet and fill it in, problem solved.
To be honest, the fact that any publisher charges the same for a digital copy as a physical one is tantamount to robbery. The profit margins on digital material is wildly greater than a physical book (no warehouse storage, no printing costs, no shipping it to suppliers, etc). Digital books ought to be half the price (at least) of physical media.
You're not wrong, people played TTRPG for decade prior to online or computer aided character builders, and yet people do want character builders that do a lot of the work (and to some degree double check their math and build calculations) for them, for this and for other games.
And let's remember this is a thread started by a poster who thinks the possession or maybe only purchase of the hard copy book, entitles them access to that tool. I'm pretty sure they're aware the paper form to fill in exists. Of course, there are probably not an insignificant number of players who find DDB essential to their game playing because they don't want to fill out paper forms.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Oh, I don't believe it's essential either. But "there are probably not an insignificant number of players" who do. One can say DDB is not essential to D&D and some D&D players find DDB essential a consistent statement.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Really the only thing you have to buy from PF2 is the Adventure Paths or the Lost Omens if you want a setting. The rules are free and legal in the Archives of Nethys.
And that of buying the same content several times is the pain of our days. For example, I play a lot online, so I have to buy things twice.
The solution could be the new WotC VTT, if it really is possible to transfer the content purchased on DnDBeyond at no cost. The problem is that what I've seen of the VTT I don't like very much, and I prefer the 2D style of other platforms. But that is a matter of taste.
I can understand someone not wanting to buy the physical book and it on D&D Beyond as well, but honestly, the above quote is laughably absurd! Either you have no idea what D&D Beyond actually offers or you have no idea what effort goes into programming and data entry for a site like this (or both)!
"Robbery" LOL!!
Also, the digital content on DDB is half the price of the dead tree format.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Half the MSRP of the in print version, "but Amazon" is most folks' index for prices. Not saying that validates the complaint, but I can see where the "they're the same price" argument comes from.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
If someone's complaining about the price of a digital book because they were able to find a copy of the dead tree version for under MSRP online, I'd say that falls heavily under first world problems.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think basically any complaint about the price of a hobby falls under First World Problems.
That's another way of saying "That doesn't validate the complaint; but I can see where the "they're the same price" argument comes from." There's not a lot of awareness, maybe even consciousness, in contemporary so-called post industrial consumption, but that's sort of going meta to the topic.
I imagine what DDB entitlements may accompany a physical purchase may change in post refreshed/revised core books. I don't see DDB or the VTT capstone on top of DDB being essential to future play (despite fears expressed on a number of channels including this forum), but facilitating greater integration is probably a goal of the various roll outs we'll be seeing post 2024. I was frankly surprised to see the bundled roll out for 5e books we've seen to date, and I imagine those will be further refined.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I mean, yes, but there are some legitimate complaints about corporate greed making things too expensive, like online games that push microtransactions toward kids and people with ADHD- obviously not something happening here but just using it as an example.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.