As someone who's played several monks, including one all the way to level 20, these changes seem on the whole, interesting, if unnecessary. The 2014 class already played much better than it looked on the page.
Eh... Crawford himself admitted that their damage was subpar. If you only played at low levels they were solid offensively (and even there their defenses sucked), but they really started to peter off after 6th or so.
I have to say that replacing the interesting "ki" with the bland "focus" makes me sad, however. It's an odd trend where as character abilities become ever more fantastical, the naming conventions become ever more mundane.
I for one support the change, and it definitely rolls off the tongue better than Discipline did too. There are a lot more cultures that can have monks/ascetic combatants than East Asian/Shaolin.
I'm not liking the way of mercy making it into the core and it seems it could be a trap. What do you do as that subclass that isn't done better by a Paladin? I think I would have rather seen the sun soul as a ranged subclass option instead.
Monks can now starve to death, which is interesting. I wonder why that was changed?
What can a subclass do that an entire class can't do better? 🤔
A rogue is not a better assassin than an assassin rogue, way of shadow monk, or gloomstalker ranger, eh?
If we're talking about playing a character with yin&yang healing/harming hands that can debuff an enemy, that sounds like it has a ton of overlap with the Paladin base class. I'm curious how a lvl 10 warrior of mercy might compare to a lvl 5 warrior of mercy / level 5 paladin. Will the multi class have a lot more uses of healing and more resources for boosting damage on a hit?
When you include classes and subclasses, there are dozens of builds available. Do you think there's enough design space for none of them to overlap?
A monk feels very different from a paladin, even if they can serve the same role (in a very limited view of what they have to offer) in a party. That's not bad design. Maybe I just don't want to play a paladin? It's not like Mercy monk is terrible.
I'm not liking the way of mercy making it into the core and it seems it could be a trap. What do you do as that subclass that isn't done better by a Paladin? I think I would have rather seen the sun soul as a ranged subclass option instead.
Monks can now starve to death, which is interesting. I wonder why that was changed?
What can a subclass do that an entire class can't do better? 🤔
A rogue is not a better assassin than an assassin rogue, way of shadow monk, or gloomstalker ranger, eh?
If we're talking about playing a character with yin&yang healing/harming hands that can debuff an enemy, that sounds like it has a ton of overlap with the Paladin base class. I'm curious how a lvl 10 warrior of mercy might compare to a lvl 5 warrior of mercy / level 5 paladin. Will the multi class have a lot more uses of healing and more resources for boosting damage on a hit?
When you include classes and subclasses, there are dozens of builds available. Do you think there's enough design space for none of them to overlap?
A monk feels very different from a paladin, even if they can serve the same role (in a very limited view of what they have to offer) in a party. That's not bad design. Maybe I just don't want to play a paladin? It's not like Mercy monk is terrible.
To build on the above point, it's an explicitly stated design intent that many subclasses exist as a way for one class to dip its toes into another. Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster allow Fighter and Rogue respectively to be a little Wizards. Bladesinger lets Wizard be a little Fighter. Divine Soul lets Sorcerer be a little Cleric and Scribes lets Wizard be a little Sorcerer.
It's not just inevitable, it's intentional and part of avoiding the problem of needing certain "roles" filled in the party.
Monk is definitely more playable but I still feel a bit saddened at some missed opportunities to really make it pop.
This one's very much an impossible dream, but I still wish Monks were the class that got all the Extra Attacks and Fighters had a better way to represent their lethality than just more attacks (extra effects, damage, etc.). Frustrating that all the increasing damage as the Monk levels is dependent on using Flurry of Blows; the sacrifice for not using your Bonus Action for Flurry of Blows only gets more pronounced with Heightened Focus despite this being a nice addition.
I'd have liked strength builds to be a viable option as well, but ah well.
It is nice to see the Deflect Missiles feature improved to include melee attacks. However, it feels unintuitive for the deflection to be 1d10+Monk level+Dex, then the redirect attack being 2dX+Dex (X being Martial Arts die). I don't understand why they didn't just use a Monk Attack roll (1d20+Dex+PB) to reduce the damage then 1dX+Dex, this way it perfectly matches the process and numbers of a Monk Attack. I know this means you don't get the extra 1dX reduction in damage, but I'd take that for the more logical and straightforward numbers.
I like the Stunning Strike change to having a failure effect to mitigate a miss and the rebalance to a single use per turn. Causing it to prevent Opportunity Attacks as well (or instead of one of the existing effects) would be my gold standard preference, as reduced movement doesn't have any benefit if they're already in melee (unless you use PD or SotW with BA).
True, monks have never put out the most damage, and at low levels they tend to be a bit fragile. I can see how this has turned off many players. In my personal experience, however, at higher levels they are respectable in combat and very difficult to kill.
In this 2024 update, giving monks more fun in their class abilities, and closer integration of those abilities into the core game mechanics, are welcome changes. Monks were always the "weird" class whose lore and mechanics felt out-of-place due to the class's quirky origin in 1e. I'm glad Crawford and team are changing that and cleaning up so many game artifacts that carried over from older editions without much review.
The defelect attack can be really useful could use it to attack a door the party needs open or just to escape via breaking a door
It will depend on the wording. Most powers say they target a creature. So it would need to say something to allow it to be an object. Or at least not specify it can only be a creature.
so a few things mainly bc i just rewatched the monk video
1. great changes all around! the original monk bar was low but you guys did a great job improving it
2. for the elemental monk for 6th level yea its low on the damage but i would have loved if you could change its shape to whatever you wanted line a line or a cone really fit the controlling the elements feel. i would have also liked it if you could pour some ki into it to make it stronger the way sun soul monk works in 2014 version. over all tho a much better subclass
3. the open hand 17th level feature... it hurts to see it gone even tho it was unbalanced as all heck but still hurts it felt like a good martial version of wish (ish) and fit the "youre already dead" meme perfectly but yea it was so strong so like i get it but ow...
4. deflect attacks got a major buff but i think its still lacking one major feature to help it feel like the monk is dodging attacks and thats that alot of monsters get multi attack and from my understanding this still only works on one attack. i do love the idea of you deflecting a lightning bolt or fireball now it sounds really fun
5. the 19th level epic boon you guys showed off doesnt fit well for the monk at all and tbh isnt really worthy of the epic boon name. it maybe nice for other classes to get around resistance but for the monk they can always deal force damage so its not useful unless force damage resistance is become a much bigger thing. also really? "Additionally, when you roll a 20 on an attack roll, you can deal additional damage equal to the ability score you increased with this feat." didnt we learn from barb that nat 20 stuff isnt good or reliable also becuase it says on a 20 it means the campion the big daddy crit master still has to hit a 20 and not a crit for that to activate.
After seeing the changes it not only feels like they fixed my biggest qualms with the class, they buffed them as well. I'm playing a Wood elf, way of the open hand Monk. Thank monk, especially once you have a few ki points feels like a hit and run class, except you can't use your flurry of blows and disengage after that. It's either hit OR run. Now, with these changes it does feel like you can become a bit of a menace on the battlefield, deliver a few blows, then take a few steps back as the big damage dealers step in. I really hope I get to play my character in the 2024 version of the game some time.
True but it looks like he has been a runner up to the casters. I'm no mathematician, just trying something. No modifiers or special abilities, feats etc added.
1e's Monk maxed out at four attacks doing 8d4 each. That's a maximum of 128 dpr (80 avg)
1e Fighters only get two attacks per round, so didn't bother calculating that since it's less than 5e's DPR.
5e rev's Monk maxed out at five attacks doing 1d10 each. That's a maximum of 50 dpr (27.5 avg
5e Fighter maxes out at three attacks (plus two action surgers for one round max) with a great axe for 1d12. That's a maximum of 60 dpr for one round (32 avg). After that round it drops to only 3d12 or maximum 36dpr (19.5 avg)
I'm kind of rusty on spell casters, but there was no theoretical limit to levels in 1e so a 30th Magic User would do 30d6 or 180dpr (105 avg).
I believe a 20th level would max out a 14d6 (?) or 84 maximum dpr (49avg)
Eh... Crawford himself admitted that their damage was subpar. If you only played at low levels they were solid offensively (and even there their defenses sucked), but they really started to peter off after 6th or so.
I for one support the change, and it definitely rolls off the tongue better than Discipline did too. There are a lot more cultures that can have monks/ascetic combatants than East Asian/Shaolin.
When you include classes and subclasses, there are dozens of builds available. Do you think there's enough design space for none of them to overlap?
A monk feels very different from a paladin, even if they can serve the same role (in a very limited view of what they have to offer) in a party. That's not bad design. Maybe I just don't want to play a paladin? It's not like Mercy monk is terrible.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
To build on the above point, it's an explicitly stated design intent that many subclasses exist as a way for one class to dip its toes into another. Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster allow Fighter and Rogue respectively to be a little Wizards. Bladesinger lets Wizard be a little Fighter. Divine Soul lets Sorcerer be a little Cleric and Scribes lets Wizard be a little Sorcerer.
It's not just inevitable, it's intentional and part of avoiding the problem of needing certain "roles" filled in the party.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Monk is definitely more playable but I still feel a bit saddened at some missed opportunities to really make it pop.
This one's very much an impossible dream, but I still wish Monks were the class that got all the Extra Attacks and Fighters had a better way to represent their lethality than just more attacks (extra effects, damage, etc.). Frustrating that all the increasing damage as the Monk levels is dependent on using Flurry of Blows; the sacrifice for not using your Bonus Action for Flurry of Blows only gets more pronounced with Heightened Focus despite this being a nice addition.
I'd have liked strength builds to be a viable option as well, but ah well.
It is nice to see the Deflect Missiles feature improved to include melee attacks. However, it feels unintuitive for the deflection to be 1d10+Monk level+Dex, then the redirect attack being 2dX+Dex (X being Martial Arts die). I don't understand why they didn't just use a Monk Attack roll (1d20+Dex+PB) to reduce the damage then 1dX+Dex, this way it perfectly matches the process and numbers of a Monk Attack. I know this means you don't get the extra 1dX reduction in damage, but I'd take that for the more logical and straightforward numbers.
I like the Stunning Strike change to having a failure effect to mitigate a miss and the rebalance to a single use per turn. Causing it to prevent Opportunity Attacks as well (or instead of one of the existing effects) would be my gold standard preference, as reduced movement doesn't have any benefit if they're already in melee (unless you use PD or SotW with BA).
True, monks have never put out the most damage, and at low levels they tend to be a bit fragile. I can see how this has turned off many players. In my personal experience, however, at higher levels they are respectable in combat and very difficult to kill.
In this 2024 update, giving monks more fun in their class abilities, and closer integration of those abilities into the core game mechanics, are welcome changes. Monks were always the "weird" class whose lore and mechanics felt out-of-place due to the class's quirky origin in 1e. I'm glad Crawford and team are changing that and cleaning up so many game artifacts that carried over from older editions without much review.
The defelect attack can be really useful could use it to attack a door the party needs open or just to escape via breaking a door
It will depend on the wording. Most powers say they target a creature. So it would need to say something to allow it to be an object. Or at least not specify it can only be a creature.
The UA wording is "choose a creature." But monks will get force-fists in 2 levels anyway.
so a few things mainly bc i just rewatched the monk video
1. great changes all around! the original monk bar was low but you guys did a great job improving it
2. for the elemental monk for 6th level yea its low on the damage but i would have loved if you could change its shape to whatever you wanted line a line or a cone really fit the controlling the elements feel. i would have also liked it if you could pour some ki into it to make it stronger the way sun soul monk works in 2014 version. over all tho a much better subclass
3. the open hand 17th level feature... it hurts to see it gone even tho it was unbalanced as all heck but still hurts it felt like a good martial version of wish (ish) and fit the "youre already dead" meme perfectly but yea it was so strong so like i get it but ow...
4. deflect attacks got a major buff but i think its still lacking one major feature to help it feel like the monk is dodging attacks and thats that alot of monsters get multi attack and from my understanding this still only works on one attack. i do love the idea of you deflecting a lightning bolt or fireball now it sounds really fun
5. the 19th level epic boon you guys showed off doesnt fit well for the monk at all and tbh isnt really worthy of the epic boon name. it maybe nice for other classes to get around resistance but for the monk they can always deal force damage so its not useful unless force damage resistance is become a much bigger thing. also really? "Additionally, when you roll a 20 on an attack roll, you can deal additional damage equal to the ability score you increased with this feat." didnt we learn from barb that nat 20 stuff isnt good or reliable also becuase it says on a 20 it means the campion the big daddy crit master still has to hit a 20 and not a crit for that to activate.
also sorry for being so late to the convo
After seeing the changes it not only feels like they fixed my biggest qualms with the class, they buffed them as well. I'm playing a Wood elf, way of the open hand Monk. Thank monk, especially once you have a few ki points feels like a hit and run class, except you can't use your flurry of blows and disengage after that. It's either hit OR run. Now, with these changes it does feel like you can become a bit of a menace on the battlefield, deliver a few blows, then take a few steps back as the big damage dealers step in. I really hope I get to play my character in the 2024 version of the game some time.
True but it looks like he has been a runner up to the casters. I'm no mathematician, just trying something. No modifiers or special abilities, feats etc added.
1e's Monk maxed out at four attacks doing 8d4 each. That's a maximum of 128 dpr (80 avg)
1e Fighters only get two attacks per round, so didn't bother calculating that since it's less than 5e's DPR.
5e rev's Monk maxed out at five attacks doing 1d10 each. That's a maximum of 50 dpr (27.5 avg
5e Fighter maxes out at three attacks (plus two action surgers for one round max) with a great axe for 1d12. That's a maximum of 60 dpr for one round (32 avg). After that round it drops to only 3d12 or maximum 36dpr (19.5 avg)
I'm kind of rusty on spell casters, but there was no theoretical limit to levels in 1e so a 30th Magic User would do 30d6 or 180dpr (105 avg).
I believe a 20th level would max out a 14d6 (?) or 84 maximum dpr (49avg)
This is covered in the level 10 ability, Self Restoration.