There's still the weird possibility when winning initiative while completely unaware of your ambusher, at which point you're in combat initiative without any clue of who or what for.
This is where I feel they are injecting dice just for the sake of dice.
If a group is successfully stealthed and lying in wait, one member of that group should go first. They are instigating the combat. Everyone rolls initiative - you can keep the advantage or disadvantage stuff or not, I don't care - but the character that instigates the combat is moved to the top. This is not complicated to run at the table.
If you think that a system where all the ambushed guys could go before the ones ambushing them is a good thing for the game and totally realistic, you need to step back and reconsider your perspective.
Not every mechanic deserves defending. Trying to explain that the successfully-stealthed ambushers somehow slipped on a pebble and tipped off the goblins, or the goblins somehow gained spidey-sense, or some similar excuse all just sound like mental gymnastics to me. These are not conditions that initiative represents.
To put it another way, one rule of good game design is that you should never have to roll twice to determine the outcome of the same thing. Typically a successful surprise attack involves Stealth or Deception or some other checks to set up. Those rolls are made to determine whether you get the jump on the enemies. If you succeed, you should not have to then roll initiative to... determine whether you get the jump on the enemies. You have already determined that.
There's also the guideline in Dungeon Master Guide for Using Initiative Score which in most case may ensure a surprised creature doesn't act before the hidden ambusher
You could as easily say it’s the natural consequence of being successfully ambushed. Is it functionally any different from the 2014 Surprised condition?
There are some differences. If you are at the top of the initiative, on your first turn;
2014: You can't move, take an action, bonus action, or reaction until that turn ends.
2024: You can move, take action, bonus action and reaction.
There’s a reason I said “functionally”; yes, you can nominally act, but if you’re unaware attackers are about to act, what are you going to do that isn’t overtly a metagame exploit of knowing that initiative was rolled?
Hence why it's awkward when relying on meta with such possibility as an outcome. At least in 2014 the system spelled out you couldn't do anything regardless of initiative order.
There's also the guideline in Dungeon Master Guide for Using Initiative Score which in most case may ensure a surprised creature doesn't act before the hidden ambusher
Ambusher: DEX mod +15
Surprised: DEX mod +5
Thank You. (I know its late to the conversation.) I had missed this. Rolling initiative breaks down verisimilitude in ambushes as others have said (ambushed reacting first either to nothing or to a forced 'stick breaks'). But Using Initiative Score for surprise rounds gives a reference-able reason for having the ambushers (all) go first then the ambushed get to react.
(Rolling initiative within the groups on surprise rounds, or especially as normal for non-surprise encounters, because otherwise there's going to be several with the same initiative score that then has to be sorted out.)
Trying to think of something that would mitigate the awkwardness of the situation you're describing where in the 2024 rules there is the potential that even with disadvantage, the target could end up going before it even knows there is an attack about to happen. I think for now, I'm going to allow the attack to happen before initiative. Immediately upon the attack, everyone rolls initiative, and the character/creature that made the "Surprise attack" will have already used their turn for the first round, and they will automatically be placed at (and stay at) the top of the initiative order for the duration of combat. That way, they still get to go before the enemy, but they won't have the potential of going TWICE before the enemy.
Might even do this in groups, where a coordinated sneak attack would work the same way (everyone that attacked with Surprise already took their turn for that round--so make it count!), but the enemy wouldn't get skipped... They would just -always- go after the characters/creatures that made the "Surprise" attacks each round. For a group Surprise attack, this would mean the highest initiative the target(s) could have would be the lowest Surprise attacker's initiative minus 1, so that they would still get to act on round one.
I've just walked back the Surprise rules back to 2014e. There's just too much wrong with the new rules to make it worthwhile trying to make them work.
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I wound up using house rules which seem to work pretty well. The rule is simple:
(potential) Surprise attackers use stealth instead of initiative.
(potentially) Surprised characters and creatures roll initiative normally, but cannot roll better than their passive perception.
What this means is, if you succeed at your stealth checks (beat their passive perception), you go first. If you fail at your stealth checks, there's a ready explanation for why your enemies went first.
I don't think a lot of people realized how bad the 2014 Surprise rules were. Losing your entire first round of combat is crazy no matter which side of the DM screen you're on! Pass Without Trace was one of the least balanced spells in the whole game because of those rules! And being Surprised even shut off your Reactions!
Disadvantage on Initiative rewards scouting and getting the drop on enemies, while still allowing for extremely wary, reflexive, or lucky characters to not be caught with their breeches down. That's a good thing. It means the DM can allow the group to benefit from having a scout without trivializing every fight, or conversely, ambushing the party without risking a TPK if they don't drastically pull their punches.
I'm glad they changed Surprise because it was often used wrongly and why would you not be able to act or react on your turn? Surprise doesn't, or shouldn't, mean you are unprepared and/or frozen.
I wound up using house rules which seem to work pretty well. The rule is simple:
(potential) Surprise attackers use stealth instead of initiative.
(potentially) Surprised characters and creatures roll initiative normally, but cannot roll better than their passive perception.
What this means is, if you succeed at your stealth checks (beat their passive perception), you go first. If you fail at your stealth checks, there's a ready explanation for why your enemies went first.
I love it!! It's a very elegant solution and reinforces itself, as you pointed out.
I'm glad they changed Surprise because it was often used wrongly and why would you not be able to act or react on your turn? Surprise doesn't, or shouldn't, mean you are unprepared and/or frozen.
Surprised pretty much means unprepared.
I think a better compromise would be that you lost your actions etc, but could still move. So if you scored high on your Initiative, you could dive out of the way, but just not attack anyone or whatever. I guess that still runs afoul of the problem mentioned earlier where scoring a high Initiative could turn out to be a bad thing...
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Considering a turn represents six seconds in-game, I think not moving or acting is about right for if you're caught by surprise when initiative is rolled.
It wouldn't take six seconds to move though. To make a coherent and intentional response? Yes, which is well represented by not having actions, but most people competent at combat would be able to at least move almost immediately.
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It wouldn't take six seconds to move though. To make a coherent and intentional response? Yes, which is well represented by not having actions, but most people competent at combat would be able to at least move almost immediately.
No, but assuming you didn’t know what was going on it could take that long to process what’s happening so you know where you want to move.
There's also the guideline in Dungeon Master Guide for Using Initiative Score which in most case may ensure a surprised creature doesn't act before the hidden ambusher
Ambusher: DEX mod +15
Surprised: DEX mod +5
Oh wow, thank you for that reference, I really like that rule.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I'm glad they changed Surprise because it was often used wrongly and why would you not be able to act or react on your turn? Surprise doesn't, or shouldn't, mean you are unprepared and/or frozen.
Surprised pretty much means unprepared.
No, a surprise is unexpected but that doesn't mean unprepared. Preparation is a skill which is why characters have reactions, to represent muscle memory acquired through training and repetition. 2014 Surprise takes that away. Here you are an experienced fighter walking through the forest and a goblin jumps out of a bush, runs 30', and stabs you with a dagger. You are immediately frozen, no reaction. When your turn comes up in the round, you are still frozen, no actions or reactions. It's like being charmed but you take damage. That was an awful mechanic. Imagine we gave that same mechanic to sneak attack, the enemy doesn't get a reaction and loses it's next turn. DMs would be screaming and it would be banned at most tables.
It's not really about the 'realism' of surprise rules, it's about "In a system where most fights are over in three rounds, one extra round is an insanely huge advantage".
It's not really about the 'realism' of surprise rules, it's about "In a system where most fights are over in three rounds, one extra round is an insanely huge advantage".
And if surprise doesn't give a significant advantage, is it worth tracking to begin with? Generally speaking PCs aren't going to be wiped out by one extra round of enemy action unless this was a seriously high difficulty encounter, and if the party manages to pull off a successful ambush they should get a notable payoff. Advantage on Initiative or just being ahead in turn order doesn't really scratch that itch imo- at best you get fairly lopsided turns, at worst they might as well have not bothered with the ambush if most of the party still ends up going after the enemies who have effectively suffered no handicap for being successfully ambushed.
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This is where I feel they are injecting dice just for the sake of dice.
If a group is successfully stealthed and lying in wait, one member of that group should go first. They are instigating the combat. Everyone rolls initiative - you can keep the advantage or disadvantage stuff or not, I don't care - but the character that instigates the combat is moved to the top. This is not complicated to run at the table.
If you think that a system where all the ambushed guys could go before the ones ambushing them is a good thing for the game and totally realistic, you need to step back and reconsider your perspective.
Not every mechanic deserves defending. Trying to explain that the successfully-stealthed ambushers somehow slipped on a pebble and tipped off the goblins, or the goblins somehow gained spidey-sense, or some similar excuse all just sound like mental gymnastics to me. These are not conditions that initiative represents.
To put it another way, one rule of good game design is that you should never have to roll twice to determine the outcome of the same thing. Typically a successful surprise attack involves Stealth or Deception or some other checks to set up. Those rolls are made to determine whether you get the jump on the enemies. If you succeed, you should not have to then roll initiative to... determine whether you get the jump on the enemies. You have already determined that.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
There's also the guideline in Dungeon Master Guide for Using Initiative Score which in most case may ensure a surprised creature doesn't act before the hidden ambusher
Ambusher: DEX mod +15
Surprised: DEX mod +5
Hence why it's awkward when relying on meta with such possibility as an outcome. At least in 2014 the system spelled out you couldn't do anything regardless of initiative order.
Agreed
Thank You. (I know its late to the conversation.) I had missed this. Rolling initiative breaks down verisimilitude in ambushes as others have said (ambushed reacting first either to nothing or to a forced 'stick breaks'). But Using Initiative Score for surprise rounds gives a reference-able reason for having the ambushers (all) go first then the ambushed get to react.
(Rolling initiative within the groups on surprise rounds, or especially as normal for non-surprise encounters, because otherwise there's going to be several with the same initiative score that then has to be sorted out.)
Trying to think of something that would mitigate the awkwardness of the situation you're describing where in the 2024 rules there is the potential that even with disadvantage, the target could end up going before it even knows there is an attack about to happen. I think for now, I'm going to allow the attack to happen before initiative. Immediately upon the attack, everyone rolls initiative, and the character/creature that made the "Surprise attack" will have already used their turn for the first round, and they will automatically be placed at (and stay at) the top of the initiative order for the duration of combat. That way, they still get to go before the enemy, but they won't have the potential of going TWICE before the enemy.
Might even do this in groups, where a coordinated sneak attack would work the same way (everyone that attacked with Surprise already took their turn for that round--so make it count!), but the enemy wouldn't get skipped... They would just -always- go after the characters/creatures that made the "Surprise" attacks each round. For a group Surprise attack, this would mean the highest initiative the target(s) could have would be the lowest Surprise attacker's initiative minus 1, so that they would still get to act on round one.
I've just walked back the Surprise rules back to 2014e. There's just too much wrong with the new rules to make it worthwhile trying to make them work.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I wound up using house rules which seem to work pretty well. The rule is simple:
What this means is, if you succeed at your stealth checks (beat their passive perception), you go first. If you fail at your stealth checks, there's a ready explanation for why your enemies went first.
I don't think a lot of people realized how bad the 2014 Surprise rules were. Losing your entire first round of combat is crazy no matter which side of the DM screen you're on! Pass Without Trace was one of the least balanced spells in the whole game because of those rules! And being Surprised even shut off your Reactions!
Disadvantage on Initiative rewards scouting and getting the drop on enemies, while still allowing for extremely wary, reflexive, or lucky characters to not be caught with their breeches down. That's a good thing. It means the DM can allow the group to benefit from having a scout without trivializing every fight, or conversely, ambushing the party without risking a TPK if they don't drastically pull their punches.
I'm glad they changed Surprise because it was often used wrongly and why would you not be able to act or react on your turn? Surprise doesn't, or shouldn't, mean you are unprepared and/or frozen.
I love it!! It's a very elegant solution and reinforces itself, as you pointed out.
Surprised pretty much means unprepared.
I think a better compromise would be that you lost your actions etc, but could still move. So if you scored high on your Initiative, you could dive out of the way, but just not attack anyone or whatever. I guess that still runs afoul of the problem mentioned earlier where scoring a high Initiative could turn out to be a bad thing...
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Considering a turn represents six seconds in-game, I think not moving or acting is about right for if you're caught by surprise when initiative is rolled.
It wouldn't take six seconds to move though. To make a coherent and intentional response? Yes, which is well represented by not having actions, but most people competent at combat would be able to at least move almost immediately.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
No, but assuming you didn’t know what was going on it could take that long to process what’s happening so you know where you want to move.
Oh wow, thank you for that reference, I really like that rule.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
No, a surprise is unexpected but that doesn't mean unprepared. Preparation is a skill which is why characters have reactions, to represent muscle memory acquired through training and repetition. 2014 Surprise takes that away. Here you are an experienced fighter walking through the forest and a goblin jumps out of a bush, runs 30', and stabs you with a dagger. You are immediately frozen, no reaction. When your turn comes up in the round, you are still frozen, no actions or reactions. It's like being charmed but you take damage. That was an awful mechanic. Imagine we gave that same mechanic to sneak attack, the enemy doesn't get a reaction and loses it's next turn. DMs would be screaming and it would be banned at most tables.
It's not really about the 'realism' of surprise rules, it's about "In a system where most fights are over in three rounds, one extra round is an insanely huge advantage".
I really like this idea. Thanks for sharing!
And if surprise doesn't give a significant advantage, is it worth tracking to begin with? Generally speaking PCs aren't going to be wiped out by one extra round of enemy action unless this was a seriously high difficulty encounter, and if the party manages to pull off a successful ambush they should get a notable payoff. Advantage on Initiative or just being ahead in turn order doesn't really scratch that itch imo- at best you get fairly lopsided turns, at worst they might as well have not bothered with the ambush if most of the party still ends up going after the enemies who have effectively suffered no handicap for being successfully ambushed.