There's nothing majestic about a typical Ogre, so yes they have low Charisma. If an Ogre is rampaging throughout a town, do you run immediately, or do you feel the urge to linger for a moment to observe the Ogre and then run? Probably the former since, yes, it is the ingrained response to danger. That's just a general response to danger itself, not a response to the Charisma of the creature presenting the danger. If it is the latter, then that's probably an exceptionally (relatively) charismatic Ogre!
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
This is why dragons do have high Charisma. They are they center of attention wherever they go because of their awe-inducing presence. Same with the big cats & other large predators. They are majestic creatures with an aura that radiates deadly majesty.
Dragons have high charisma because they're intelligent and proud as hell.
Big cats and large predators? A lion has 8. A panther has 7. A wolf has 6. An eagle has 7. A brown bear has 7. All kind of lousy scores. What about the really big stuff? A roc has 9 charisma, and that's a gargantuan bird monster. A purple worm has 4. A froghemoth has 5. A hydra has 7. A remorhaz has 5.
There's an obvious pattern here: these are all unaligned creatures. They don't have much self-awareness and they can't make moral choices. They all have less charisma than the average commoner. Is a roc not majestic and awe-inducing?
As soon as you start looking at creatures with intelligence, language and alignment, you see higher scores across the board. Dragon wyrmlings have 11-15 charisma. That's a big difference from a hydra, even though they're much smaller and much less deadly. Why does an animated armor have 1 charisma but a helmed horror has 10? They're both suits of armor, but the former lacks self-awareness while the latter is intelligent. Same thing with other mindless constructs like golems (1 CHA across the board) vs self-aware constructs like the scarecrow (13 CHA.)
I've always thought of Charisma as the ability to impose your will on another. Weather that is through flirting, diplomacy, or intimidation is, as Sigred said, a specific use. I mostly agree with Sigred, but I think of Charisma as slightly more active than passive. Your example of a dragon walking into a room and commanding attention is passive. I imagine it more as when the dragon speaks, everyone is compelled to listen. It may threaten, it may joke, but everyone listens.
This is why dragons do have high Charisma. They are they center of attention wherever they go because of their awe-inducing presence. Same with the big cats & other large predators. They are majestic creatures with an aura that radiates deadly majesty.
Dragons have high charisma because they're intelligent and proud as hell.
Big cats and large predators? A lion has 8. A panther has 7. A wolf has 6. An eagle has 7. A brown bear has 7. All kind of lousy scores. What about the really big stuff? A roc has 9 charisma, and that's a gargantuan bird monster. A purple worm has 4. A froghemoth has 5. A hydra has 7. A remorhaz has 5.
There's an obvious pattern here: these are all unaligned creatures. They don't have much self-awareness and they can't make moral choices. They all have less charisma than the average commoner. Is a roc not majestic and awe-inducing?
As soon as you start looking at creatures with intelligence, language and alignment, you see higher scores across the board. Dragon wyrmlings have 11-15 charisma. That's a big difference from a hydra, even though they're much smaller and much less deadly. Why does an animated armor have 1 charisma but a helmed horror has 10? They're both suits of armor, but the former lacks self-awareness while the latter is intelligent. Same thing with other mindless constructs like golems (1 CHA across the board) vs self-aware constructs like the scarecrow (13 CHA.)
I should rephrase about dragons: It's one of the reasons.
As far as the general ordering of your examples, I don't see an issue. Lions, panthers, wolves, eagles, etc. (beasts) should have higher Charisma than the typical monstrosity. Rocs, however, are majestic as hell and do deserve a higher Charisma. Compared to the other monstrosities, it already does.
The issue I do see is WoTC setting Charisma so low across the board for non-humanoids, but of course it's "game logic". A Froghemoth is way more awe-inducing than "Dave the Trench Digger". 🙄
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I've always thought of Charisma as the ability to impose your will on another. Weather that is through flirting, diplomacy, or intimidation is, as Sigred said, a specific use. I mostly agree with Sigred, but I think of Charisma as slightly more active than passive. Your example of a dragon walking into a room and commanding attention is passive. I imagine it more as when the dragon speaks, everyone is compelled to listen. It may threaten, it may joke, but everyone listens.
Yeah, I think this is more accurate, it overlaps with wisdom a bit, but force of will and your ability to impose that will makes more sense than presence. After all, an actor should have high charisma, and the best actors can turn it off and disappear into a crowd if they want to.
I just found this post, so I apologize for necro-ing it a bit, but if people are looking for a alternative to the Eagle for a representation of Charisma, I'd like to submit for your consideration:
Eagles represent charisma because in history throughout the world, eagles were commonly seen as the most majestic and royal of birds. It appeared on the heraldry of many kingdoms and empires, including the Persian Empire and the Roman Empire, and was the animal associated with Zeus/Jupiter in Greek/Roman mythology.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I see charismatic animals as, like a Peacock, a snake (I mean biblically it was a snake that was so charismatic that it convinced someone to eat a forbidden fruit), A Parrot. I just trying to think of each animal in a humanoid manner and try to fit a class to them based on the things I know of that animal.
Charismatic Wise I could completely see a Peacock singing and dancing showing off how beautiful it was, Or a Snake loudly proclaiming and convincing everyone to buy their oil ;), or a Parrot Telling jokes to an audience.
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Just a nerdy mystery of a man that has spent 30+ years playing D&D. I enjoy playing, DM'ing, and Creating.
I see charismatic animals as, like a Peacock, a snake (I mean biblically it was a snake that was so charismatic that it convinced someone to eat a forbidden fruit),
The person in question didn't know what "forbidden" meant or why they should or should not eat the fruit, so not exactly a high DC on that check.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Big cats and large predators? A lion has 8. A panther has 7. A wolf has 6. An eagle has 7. A brown bear has 7. All kind of lousy scores. What about the really big stuff? A roc has 9 charisma, and that's a gargantuan bird monster. A purple worm has 4. A froghemoth has 5. A hydra has 7. A remorhaz has 5.
They are RAW but I find that the Devs seriously underestimate the mental stats of animals. They give low intelligence ratings even to species known in the real world for exceptional (at least approaching or overlapping with human) level intelligence such as Killer Whales and Ravens and low charisma to social species. Why would a wolf, which relies on coordination with the pack, have a lower charisma than a panther? Why would either necessarily have low charismas? Just because of a lack of human language?
(although, frankly, every social species does have language, even when we cannot easily translate it)
And that is the real world, not a fantasy setting where fully intelligent animals exist not only in Disney cartoons but throughout myths into and through modern fantasy literature.
Animals that historically represent charisma do include the eagle (soaring majesty), but also the wolf, the bear (both social species), the snake (the hypnotize prey into staying still to be more easily eaten myth), peacocks (although they tend to represent flashy appearance, often empty of any actual charisma but that depends on culture) or the lion (again, social species) or the stag (which is an example of a herbivore representing masculine charisma) or doe (for feminine charisma).
I see charismatic animals as, like a Peacock, a snake (I mean biblically it was a snake that was so charismatic that it convinced someone to eat a forbidden fruit),
The person in question didn't know what "forbidden" meant or why they should or should not eat the fruit, so not exactly a high DC on that check.
While this reply has no real baring on the question that was asked and adds not to the conversation, other than a conflicting objective to my opinion, let us humor it for a moment. I'm not even of the pointed out biblical faith and know that instruction was given to stay away from the tree in the center of the garden and to not touch or eat the fruit it bares or it would mean their certain death. Forbidden is just a descriptive word given to it, it wasn't described as such to the consumers of the fruit but just a word used to describe it today. Though the DC may not be 30, I'd still require a roll to convince someone to eat or even do anything they were previously told by a respectable figure (To them that is) it would lead to their death. I'm not here to debate faith, was simply giving an example of "Charismatic" influence.
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Just a nerdy mystery of a man that has spent 30+ years playing D&D. I enjoy playing, DM'ing, and Creating.
It should also be noted that the snake in the story was described as no normal snake and would be best described as possessed or shapechanged from something else. There are plenty of snakes that do everything they can to avoid notice.
There's nothing majestic about a typical Ogre, so yes they have low Charisma. If an Ogre is rampaging throughout a town, do you run immediately, or do you feel the urge to linger for a moment to observe the Ogre and then run? Probably the former since, yes, it is the ingrained response to danger. That's just a general response to danger itself, not a response to the Charisma of the creature presenting the danger. If it is the latter, then that's probably an exceptionally (relatively) charismatic Ogre!
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Dragons have high charisma because they're intelligent and proud as hell.
Big cats and large predators? A lion has 8. A panther has 7. A wolf has 6. An eagle has 7. A brown bear has 7. All kind of lousy scores. What about the really big stuff? A roc has 9 charisma, and that's a gargantuan bird monster. A purple worm has 4. A froghemoth has 5. A hydra has 7. A remorhaz has 5.
There's an obvious pattern here: these are all unaligned creatures. They don't have much self-awareness and they can't make moral choices. They all have less charisma than the average commoner. Is a roc not majestic and awe-inducing?
As soon as you start looking at creatures with intelligence, language and alignment, you see higher scores across the board. Dragon wyrmlings have 11-15 charisma. That's a big difference from a hydra, even though they're much smaller and much less deadly. Why does an animated armor have 1 charisma but a helmed horror has 10? They're both suits of armor, but the former lacks self-awareness while the latter is intelligent. Same thing with other mindless constructs like golems (1 CHA across the board) vs self-aware constructs like the scarecrow (13 CHA.)
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I think a snake B/C the yuan-ti
I've always thought of Charisma as the ability to impose your will on another. Weather that is through flirting, diplomacy, or intimidation is, as Sigred said, a specific use. I mostly agree with Sigred, but I think of Charisma as slightly more active than passive. Your example of a dragon walking into a room and commanding attention is passive. I imagine it more as when the dragon speaks, everyone is compelled to listen. It may threaten, it may joke, but everyone listens.
I should rephrase about dragons: It's one of the reasons.
As far as the general ordering of your examples, I don't see an issue. Lions, panthers, wolves, eagles, etc. (beasts) should have higher Charisma than the typical monstrosity. Rocs, however, are majestic as hell and do deserve a higher Charisma. Compared to the other monstrosities, it already does.
The issue I do see is WoTC setting Charisma so low across the board for non-humanoids, but of course it's "game logic". A Froghemoth is way more awe-inducing than "Dave the Trench Digger". 🙄
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Yeah, I think this is more accurate, it overlaps with wisdom a bit, but force of will and your ability to impose that will makes more sense than presence. After all, an actor should have high charisma, and the best actors can turn it off and disappear into a crowd if they want to.
Taran Cragshollow (Summit Road)
I just found this post, so I apologize for necro-ing it a bit, but if people are looking for a alternative to the Eagle for a representation of Charisma, I'd like to submit for your consideration:
The Capybara
Homebrew Human Traits Feedback Requested
A parrot.
Eagles represent charisma because in history throughout the world, eagles were commonly seen as the most majestic and royal of birds. It appeared on the heraldry of many kingdoms and empires, including the Persian Empire and the Roman Empire, and was the animal associated with Zeus/Jupiter in Greek/Roman mythology.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
May I throw a vote in for a panda? Everyone loves pandas! They are cute, adorable, and will rip your face off if angry...
I see charismatic animals as, like a Peacock, a snake (I mean biblically it was a snake that was so charismatic that it convinced someone to eat a forbidden fruit), A Parrot. I just trying to think of each animal in a humanoid manner and try to fit a class to them based on the things I know of that animal.
Charismatic Wise I could completely see a Peacock singing and dancing showing off how beautiful it was, Or a Snake loudly proclaiming and convincing everyone to buy their oil ;), or a Parrot Telling jokes to an audience.
Just a nerdy mystery of a man that has spent 30+ years playing D&D. I enjoy playing, DM'ing, and Creating.
The person in question didn't know what "forbidden" meant or why they should or should not eat the fruit, so not exactly a high DC on that check.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
They are RAW but I find that the Devs seriously underestimate the mental stats of animals. They give low intelligence ratings even to species known in the real world for exceptional (at least approaching or overlapping with human) level intelligence such as Killer Whales and Ravens and low charisma to social species. Why would a wolf, which relies on coordination with the pack, have a lower charisma than a panther? Why would either necessarily have low charismas? Just because of a lack of human language?
(although, frankly, every social species does have language, even when we cannot easily translate it)
And that is the real world, not a fantasy setting where fully intelligent animals exist not only in Disney cartoons but throughout myths into and through modern fantasy literature.
Animals that historically represent charisma do include the eagle (soaring majesty), but also the wolf, the bear (both social species), the snake (the hypnotize prey into staying still to be more easily eaten myth), peacocks (although they tend to represent flashy appearance, often empty of any actual charisma but that depends on culture) or the lion (again, social species) or the stag (which is an example of a herbivore representing masculine charisma) or doe (for feminine charisma).
While this reply has no real baring on the question that was asked and adds not to the conversation, other than a conflicting objective to my opinion, let us humor it for a moment. I'm not even of the pointed out biblical faith and know that instruction was given to stay away from the tree in the center of the garden and to not touch or eat the fruit it bares or it would mean their certain death. Forbidden is just a descriptive word given to it, it wasn't described as such to the consumers of the fruit but just a word used to describe it today. Though the DC may not be 30, I'd still require a roll to convince someone to eat or even do anything they were previously told by a respectable figure (To them that is) it would lead to their death. I'm not here to debate faith, was simply giving an example of "Charismatic" influence.
Just a nerdy mystery of a man that has spent 30+ years playing D&D. I enjoy playing, DM'ing, and Creating.
It should also be noted that the snake in the story was described as no normal snake and would be best described as possessed or shapechanged from something else. There are plenty of snakes that do everything they can to avoid notice.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
This guy.
I live in Los Angeles, and IMO Peacocks are the Warlocks of birds...
https://youtu.be/5WShv4xbsrw?si=_-X5sbbcXL8QrcRV