It's the only class that doesn't penalize the fact of dipping into another class. Wizards can take one level of artificer, get more cantrips, put spells into memory each day without their spellbook, get free medium armor prof and the spell slots for artificer specifically round up and not down.
I wonder what the logic was for making them the only class whose slots round up, and not down?
So a level 1 variant human wizard multiclasses into an artificer.
Feat: War Caster
Gets the spell slots of a 2nd full caster. Can now use medium armor and a shield. 5 cantrips. Has 7 spells prepared every day. Can cast without somatics. Can dex dump if they want to because of absorb elements.
So a level 1 variant human wizard multiclasses into an artificer.
Feat: War Caster
Gets the spell slots of a 2nd full caster. Can now use medium armor and a shield. 5 cantrips. Has 7 spells prepared every day. Can cast without somatics. Can dex dump if they want to because of absorb elements.
It's broken.
Ok. Druid/cleric. 2nd level caster. Medium or heavy armor. 5 cantrips. 10 (assuming +3 WIS mod) spells prepared. Etc. How is artificer more broken than this?
For that matter just cleric gets most of what you are complaining about just gets better weapons and armor in exchange for 2 cantrips. And it will get higher level spells faster now.
Sorcerer/hexblade. Level 1 spellcasting, level 1 pact magic. Medium armor. 7 cantrips. 4 spells known, not prepared. Etc. Gets ridiculous around level 6.
An artificer dip is definitely useful for a gish wizard, but is not broken.
The logic is the same logic that makes them the only half-caster that gets spells at 1st level. Spellcasting is so integral to the artificer that, even if their maximum casting ability is limited, they need to have access to spells simply by virtue of being an artificer. The rounding up on multiclassing ensures that a 1st-level artificer always has spellcasting, even if they're also a 3rd-level barbarian.
The first UA artificer had a standard half-caster progression table and everyone was really unhappy about it. This is the result of that feedback.
"An artificer dip is definitely useful for a gish wizard, but is not broken."
I disagree. You cannot use up OTHER nearly as broken cherry picked examples, in order to "prove" that this one combo here is "not broken". You have to compare to the normal average, not to the some other uber extreme cases.
5e multiclassing in general was not well thought out at all. The classes are just way too frontloaded in the first place, and there are too many of strong synergies occuring.
It's a bit shortsighted to just look at the 2nd level character. You're slowing your spell level and proficiency progression and delaying your ASIs and level-based abilities in general. A second level Wizard gets his arcane tradition. A third level one gets 2nd level spells. A fourth level one gets an ASI. A fifth level one gets 3rd level spells and a higher proficiency bonus. A sixth level one gets an arcane tradition feature. And so on, you know the class. The straight wizard is going to be a better spellcaster at every level. Armour proficiency and more cantrips and first level spells slots are great, but so is having access to spells a level higher, better spell attack bonuses and save DCs, and hitting Int 20 sooner.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
"An artificer dip is definitely useful for a gish wizard, but is not broken."
I disagree. You cannot use up OTHER nearly as broken cherry picked examples, in order to "prove" that this one combo here is "not broken". You have to compare to the normal average, not to the some other uber extreme cases.
5e multiclassing in general was not well thought out at all. The classes are just way too frontloaded in the first place, and there are too many of strong synergies occuring.
One of my arguments was that an unmulticlassed cleric was more powerful, but sure broken multiclass chery picks (for every spellcasting ability that works for every spellcasting class...).
5e multiclassing is probably as balanced as it has ever been (since it used to vary between god tier abd garbage tier in other editions that I haven't played). Classes are very front loaded, but that mostly increases character versatility while lowering overall power since they now get their high level abilities later.
"An artificer dip is definitely useful for a gish wizard, but is not broken."
I disagree. You cannot use up OTHER nearly as broken cherry picked examples, in order to "prove" that this one combo here is "not broken". You have to compare to the normal average, not to the some other uber extreme cases.
5e multiclassing in general was not well thought out at all. The classes are just way too frontloaded in the first place, and there are too many of strong synergies occuring.
One of my arguments was that an unmulticlassed cleric was more powerful, but sure broken multiclass chery picks (for every spellcasting ability that works for every spellcasting class...).
5e multiclassing is probably as balanced as it has ever been (since it used to vary between god tier abd garbage tier in other editions that I haven't played). Classes are very front loaded, but that mostly increases character versatility while lowering overall power since they now get their high level abilities later.
This. I've found that people who think MC is broken are people who list out a build and declare it's broken without ever playing it. Even with synergetic picks, there is real tension in the trade-off between MC and sticking to your base class levels, and most strong MC builds actually decrease in power relative to pure builds when you get to high levels. It's really an elegant system.
When they decide to make Artificers Spellcasters in this edition (unlike previous editions), this was one of the side effects. Of course, until now Wizards have been kinda SOL as far as optimized MC options go (as opposed to Wis ‘casters, the Cha 'caster orgy 🙄). And considering that Wizards don’t actually get one of their best features until 18th-level, IMO it seems a fair trade off to delay that (and spell progression) for an Arty dip.
I'd argue that wizards get one of their best features at every odd level.
Might you be talking about new levels of spells? 😋
I really don't think the multiclass is broken at all. Not even close. Every level you delay your spellcasting in a class like wizard is HUGE.
It has to be considered from the perspective of leveling up your character. When everyone is hitting their power bumps at level 5 the Artificer 1/ Wizard 4 is still casting second level spells. The 5th level Wizard though? They're already casting hypnotic pattern, fireball, tiny hut: laying down hugely impactful effects. That one level delay is not to be taken lightly.
One more level to wait for Dimension Door, Polymorph, Wall of Force, etc, etc. There is a sizeable cost to multiclassing as a full spellcaster and I believe that cost stops it from being broken.
Hey, so my spellcating bonus is a +8 and I am a Sortificer art 3/ sor 2 and my DM is wondering how I have a +8 on all my spells that have a plus to hit.
Am I right for saying that it is how that works, or am I wrong, I don't see what's wrong either way. Abnormal health is from our rule of exploding dice? What should my spell bonus actually be or am I completely fine.
Hey, so my spellcating bonus is a +8 and I am a Sortificer art 3/ sor 2 and my DM is wondering how I have a +8 on all my spells that have a plus to hit.
Am I right for saying that it is how that works, or am I wrong, I don't see what's wrong either way. Abnormal health is from our rule of exploding dice? What should my spell bonus actually be or am I completely fine.
It should be +8 for your artificer spells (+4 Intelligence, +3 proficiency, +1 all-purpose tool), but only +7 for your sorcerer spells (+4 charisma, +3 proficiency). The all-purpose tool only increases your hit bonus and spell save DC for your artificer spells.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
It's the only class that doesn't penalize the fact of dipping into another class. Wizards can take one level of artificer, get more cantrips, put spells into memory each day without their spellbook, get free medium armor prof and the spell slots for artificer specifically round up and not down.
I wonder what the logic was for making them the only class whose slots round up, and not down?
Yeah, it bothers me that half casters are not consistent about that anymore.
I don't think it is over powered though, the Wizard still gives up a level and slowed spell progression.
So a level 1 variant human wizard multiclasses into an artificer.
Feat: War Caster
Gets the spell slots of a 2nd full caster. Can now use medium armor and a shield. 5 cantrips. Has 7 spells prepared every day. Can cast without somatics. Can dex dump if they want to because of absorb elements.
It's broken.
Ok. Druid/cleric. 2nd level caster. Medium or heavy armor. 5 cantrips. 10 (assuming +3 WIS mod) spells prepared. Etc. How is artificer more broken than this?
For that matter just cleric gets most of what you are complaining about just gets better weapons and armor in exchange for 2 cantrips. And it will get higher level spells faster now.
Sorcerer/hexblade. Level 1 spellcasting, level 1 pact magic. Medium armor. 7 cantrips. 4 spells known, not prepared. Etc. Gets ridiculous around level 6.
An artificer dip is definitely useful for a gish wizard, but is not broken.
The logic is the same logic that makes them the only half-caster that gets spells at 1st level. Spellcasting is so integral to the artificer that, even if their maximum casting ability is limited, they need to have access to spells simply by virtue of being an artificer. The rounding up on multiclassing ensures that a 1st-level artificer always has spellcasting, even if they're also a 3rd-level barbarian.
The first UA artificer had a standard half-caster progression table and everyone was really unhappy about it. This is the result of that feedback.
"An artificer dip is definitely useful for a gish wizard, but is not broken."
I disagree. You cannot use up OTHER nearly as broken cherry picked examples, in order to "prove" that this one combo here is "not broken". You have to compare to the normal average, not to the some other uber extreme cases.
5e multiclassing in general was not well thought out at all. The classes are just way too frontloaded in the first place, and there are too many of strong synergies occuring.
Still beats the last three editions in that regard.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
It's a bit shortsighted to just look at the 2nd level character. You're slowing your spell level and proficiency progression and delaying your ASIs and level-based abilities in general. A second level Wizard gets his arcane tradition. A third level one gets 2nd level spells. A fourth level one gets an ASI. A fifth level one gets 3rd level spells and a higher proficiency bonus. A sixth level one gets an arcane tradition feature. And so on, you know the class. The straight wizard is going to be a better spellcaster at every level. Armour proficiency and more cantrips and first level spells slots are great, but so is having access to spells a level higher, better spell attack bonuses and save DCs, and hitting Int 20 sooner.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
One of my arguments was that an unmulticlassed cleric was more powerful, but sure broken multiclass chery picks (for every spellcasting ability that works for every spellcasting class...).
5e multiclassing is probably as balanced as it has ever been (since it used to vary between god tier abd garbage tier in other editions that I haven't played). Classes are very front loaded, but that mostly increases character versatility while lowering overall power since they now get their high level abilities later.
Lots of things get wonky when you allow multiclass. A DM should be prepared for some silly munchkin stuff if he allows it.
This. I've found that people who think MC is broken are people who list out a build and declare it's broken without ever playing it. Even with synergetic picks, there is real tension in the trade-off between MC and sticking to your base class levels, and most strong MC builds actually decrease in power relative to pure builds when you get to high levels. It's really an elegant system.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
When they decide to make Artificers Spellcasters in this edition (unlike previous editions), this was one of the side effects. Of course, until now Wizards have been kinda SOL as far as optimized MC options go (as opposed to Wis ‘casters, the Cha 'caster orgy 🙄). And considering that Wizards don’t actually get one of their best features until 18th-level, IMO it seems a fair trade off to delay that (and spell progression) for an Arty dip.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I'd argue that wizards get one of their best features at every odd level.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
More like 5, 9, and 17 I'd say.
Might you be talking about new levels of spells? 😋
I really don't think the multiclass is broken at all. Not even close. Every level you delay your spellcasting in a class like wizard is HUGE.
It has to be considered from the perspective of leveling up your character. When everyone is hitting their power bumps at level 5 the Artificer 1/ Wizard 4 is still casting second level spells. The 5th level Wizard though? They're already casting hypnotic pattern, fireball, tiny hut: laying down hugely impactful effects. That one level delay is not to be taken lightly.
One more level to wait for Dimension Door, Polymorph, Wall of Force, etc, etc. There is a sizeable cost to multiclassing as a full spellcaster and I believe that cost stops it from being broken.
Hey, so my spellcating bonus is a +8 and I am a Sortificer art 3/ sor 2 and my DM is wondering how I have a +8 on all my spells that have a plus to hit.
https://ddb.ac/characters/85062018/fZdxx3
Am I right for saying that it is how that works, or am I wrong, I don't see what's wrong either way. Abnormal health is from our rule of exploding dice? What should my spell bonus actually be or am I completely fine.
It should be +8 for your artificer spells (+4 Intelligence, +3 proficiency, +1 all-purpose tool), but only +7 for your sorcerer spells (+4 charisma, +3 proficiency). The all-purpose tool only increases your hit bonus and spell save DC for your artificer spells.